Superman Vs. Homelander

[The Glyphstone]

I felt like sharing a thing that feels relevant to the conversation in a "what even counts as a suitable challenge for Superman" sense:

Spoiler: Why tho

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Why does Robin look like he is trying to push her off the edge while she is clinging on to stop him?

[Peelee]

I think we've found Superman's other flaw other than kryptonite - working with Imperial measurements.

Superman is American, so he uses American Customary Units, not Imperial.

[Traab]

Superman is American, so he uses American Customary Units, not Imperial.

Anything with the word imperial in it is automatically evil. Superman has no dealing with such filth!

[Rater202]

Anything with the word imperial in it is automatically evil. Superman has no dealing with such filth!

...Honestly, that's an interesting question.

Stepping very lightly, when it comes to any one system of government or policy there-off, the problems are usually not that the system is inherently bad but that there are flaws that allow bad people to seize and stay in power, and even then very rarely are they deliberately malicious so much as they are selfish or shortsighted.

Silver Age aside, Superman is usually depicted as being a one-in-a-billion incorruptible pure heart. He has more power than he could ever possibly want but remains levelheaded and empathetic, and is often depicted as knowing when he's out of his depth and finding people to do what he can't(going to Batman for detective work or asking Shazam to fill in for him in matters of magic, for example.)

Clark is probably the best person, in fiction, to be an Emporer.

[tomandtish]

...Honestly, that's an interesting question.

Stepping very lightly, when it comes to any one system of government or policy there-off, the problems are usually not that the system is inherently bad but that there are flaws that allow bad people to seize and stay in power, and even then very rarely are they deliberately malicious so much as they are selfish or shortsighted.

Silver Age aside, Superman is usually depicted as being a one-in-a-billion incorruptible pure heart. He has more power than he could ever possibly want but remains levelheaded and empathetic, and is often depicted as knowing when he's out of his depth and finding people to do what he can't(going to Batman for detective work or asking Shazam to fill in for him in matters of magic, for example.)

Clark is probably the best person, in fiction, to be an Emporer.

Injustice: Gods Among us would beg to disagree.

[Lord Raziere]

Injustice: Gods Among us would beg to disagree.

And Justice Lords

and Superman Red Son

point is alt supermen trying to take over the world or decide whats best for everyone? shown repeatedly to not end well.

[Ajustusdaniel]

And Justice Lords

and Superman Red Son

point is alt supermen trying to take over the world or decide whats best for everyone? shown repeatedly to not end well.

I think Red Son more or less ended well, it just went through some rough patches on the way.

[Lord Raziere]

I think Red Son more or less ended well, it just went through some rough patches on the way.

Yeah.

Because Luthor fixed it.

[AvatarVecna]

...Honestly, that's an interesting question.

Stepping very lightly, when it comes to any one system of government or policy there-off, the problems are usually not that the system is inherently bad but that there are flaws that allow bad people to seize and stay in power, and even then very rarely are they deliberately malicious so much as they are selfish or shortsighted.

Silver Age aside, Superman is usually depicted as being a one-in-a-billion incorruptible pure heart. He has more power than he could ever possibly want but remains levelheaded and empathetic, and is often depicted as knowing when he's out of his depth and finding people to do what he can't(going to Batman for detective work or asking Shazam to fill in for him in matters of magic, for example.)

Clark is probably the best person, in fiction, to be an Emporer.

"Silver Age aside"

I mean let's be realistic: as has already been pointed out in this very thread, a shocking number of "Superman being a bad guy" moments from the Silver Age are directly related to him deciding "you know what, maybe I should just take over the world, they can't stop me". Tossing out the Silver Age because he's frequently kinda an ass is also coincidentally tossing out a whole buncha evidence that this idea has been tried and went badly.

[Lord Raziere]

Besides there is something better that Superman can be than emperor:
his fortress of solitude is on the North Pole right? and superman still believes in Santa right?

therefore, Superman is secretly DC's Santa Claus. He has been making the myth real by using his Kryptonian technology, superspeed and so on to become Santa for Earth every year because he can. he believes in Santa, because he IS Santa.

[Rater202]

I'm gonna say it, "alternate universe where Superman goes insane or is raised by people other than Ma and Pa Kent was a bad ruler of the world" doesn't at all convince me that you know, normal not-insane, not evil superman would do a good job running this bitch.

Every "evil Tyrant" superman AU seems to have Clark acting out of character for reasons. The good ones explain why, the bad ones... Not so much.

Besides there is something better that Superman can be than emperor:
his fortress of solitude is on the North Pole right? and superman still believes in Santa right?

therefore, Superman is secretly DC's Santa Claus. He has been making the myth real by using his Kryptonian technology, superspeed and so on to become Santa for Earth every year because he can. he believes in Santa, because he IS Santa.

Superman can't be Santa.

Spoiler

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Not even Superman is powerful enough to get away with doing that.

However, a Justice league of America story implies that DC's Santa Claus has heat vision, while a special release back in 2008 implied that Santa Claus, while not a Kryptonian, has similar powers to Superman and a nearly identical origin story.

[HandofShadows]

Yeah.

Because Luthor fixed it.

That's because Superman planned for him to fix since he realized he couldn't.

[Lord Raziere]

That's because Superman planned for him to fix since he realized he couldn't.

Thus admitting that Superman wouldn't be a good emperor.

@ Rater: except it shows he can go insane, fall or be raised by others with different values and that his morality isn't some unassailable immutable fact about him, but something that can be altered. the possibilities exist and therefore like all realities with parallel universes therefore happen simultaneously with any reality that doesn't. therefore any reality where superman is evil is just as valid as a universe as one where he doesn't. now given that the superman you are talking about is a single version of Superman that has underwent numerous retcons and thus only changed along the 4th dimension of forward/backward time, his long time morality has no bearing on the 5th dimension of sideways time, which there are at least three or more evil versions of himself, perhaps even more.

Buts let put aside that and look at this way: an incorruptible pure heart could be said to be a detriment to ruling as they lack the ability to handle the nuances of being a ruler, as a pure heart means innocence. balancing the budget of the entire planet is basically what his job would boil down to, you don't do that with innocence thats ridiculous. pure hearts are rare for a reason, they're easily broken and not fit to meet the challenges of life most of the time, any depiction of a pure heart in fiction often turning out to be someone so stubborn they take foolish idiotic decisions that would get them killed in any sane world. a pure heart is nothing but a romantic notion, a fantasy more detrimental than cool powers or awesome swords. we know the cool powers don't exist, and morality is all well and good, but this purity? I'll always maintain as unrealistic and incompatible with rational thought and actual solutions, and some level humanity. people are imperfect- this is not a dour fact, but a thing to be celebrated, for it is the imperfections that make people who they are, who WE are. Its an inescapable fact of our existence.

a pure heart in the face of such beauty is one note, fragile, unprepared, incompatible, and the greatest heights always fall into the deepest pits. a less pure person has a more reasoned, rational and flexible response to trouble and when misfortune occurs the change is less hurtful, less extreme for they are more well-rounded, they have calluses and thicker skin. a purehearted man who attempts to rule is inviting nothing but endless suffering upon themselves no matter how great, for rulership is not about how great or good the man, or endless suffering on others for their responses are not measured with experience, not tempered with caution and wisdom. I'd gladly take a well forged alloy over a pure heart. for the pure heart is like gold: shiny and great to look at, but not for much else for it is soft. but a heart of alloys is made of impurities that can give it all sorts of uses. I'd rather have a heart of steel than gold. steel is far more useful and beneficial after all. sure iron isn't real great, but we have to start the forging process from something no? indeed, I protest against morality being a thing of purity at all and that we can somehow know it through some natural purity, morality is a thing learned and cobbled together, built and rebuilt constantly from many sources, combined together to make something stronger than what it is apart. that is what makes morality great, for it isn't pure at all, but is more moral when it doesn't hesitate to be more to take in what is valuable rather than keep it out.

something incorruptible? unfortunately means that its either unreactive or destructive to anything that isn't itself. why would I ever want to be ruled by a being that only sees me as a problem to fix? as an impure being who needs their imperfections gotten rid of? I am not some broken machine for some god to fix no matter how well intentioned or how competent they are- and nor is any other person for that matter.

[Peelee]

"is a nice guy" is a horrible criteria for "could be emperor of the world." Like, it's be a nice bonus, sure, but that's it.

[The Glyphstone]

Arguably, he is already emperor of the world for the exact reason that no one could stop him. He just usually chooses not to exercise any of his power and permits people the illusion of choice; they have freedom as long as their choices do not go against what behaviors he has judged acceptable.

[Strigon]

Arguably, he is already emperor of the world for the exact reason that no one could stop him. He just usually chooses not to exercise any of his power and permits people the illusion of choice; they have freedom as long as their choices do not go against what behaviors he has judged acceptable.

I wouldn't call that an illusion of choice, though - they do have meaningful choices, and can drastically alter their futures.
The only choices he won't permit are, essentially, dystopian or apocalyptic ones.

[Friv]

Arguably, he is already emperor of the world for the exact reason that no one could stop him. He just usually chooses not to exercise any of his power and permits people the illusion of choice; they have freedom as long as their choices do not go against what behaviors he has judged acceptable.

While the average person could not stop Superman, the DC universe is sufficiently stacked that I think we've seen plenty of evidence that Superman could be stopped (and indeed has been stopped, in those instances where he's gotten himself mind-controlled or possessed.) He has a tremendous amount of power and influence, but he's not a god-emperor.

[The Glyphstone]

While the average person could not stop Superman, the DC universe is sufficiently stacked that I think we've seen plenty of evidence that Superman could be stopped (and indeed has been stopped, in those instances where he's gotten himself mind-controlled or possessed.) He has a tremendous amount of power and influence, but he's not a god-emperor.

Isn't this looping back to 'which superman are we using'? Someone cited a literal Reality Warping Superman with Plot Alteration powers upthread, IIRC. He yo-yos his own power tremendously even within a single Age, let alone between cosmic resets.

[M1982]

Yeah.

Because Luthor fixed it.

Or was it rahter Luthor manipulated it to fail first?

[Peelee]

While the average person could not stop Superman, the DC universe is sufficiently stacked that I think we've seen plenty of evidence that Superman could be stopped (and indeed has been stopped, in those instances where he's gotten himself mind-controlled or possessed.) He has a tremendous amount of power and influence, but he's not a god-emperor.

How many of those people are on earth and opposed to Supes ruling?

[Lord Raziere]

Or was it rahter Luthor manipulated it to fail first?

You saving people from Red Son Superman's oppressive tyranny?

[Friv]

Isn't this looping back to 'which superman are we using'? Someone cited a literal Reality Warping Superman with Plot Alteration powers upthread, IIRC. He yo-yos his own power tremendously even within a single Age, let alone between cosmic resets.

My counter-argument would be that then we're into the Silver Age, in which a lot of superheroes have equivalent nonsense up their sleeves. If Silver Age Batman pulls out his Kryptonite Bat-Spray and sprays down the stage that the God-Emperor Superman is going to use to address the world, it all comes down to whoever the writers want to win.

How many of those people are on earth and opposed to Supes ruling?

Quite a few are on Earth, and several of them would be very opposed to Superman ruling things. If the original posit was "Superman is de facto a god-emperor because no one can stop him," the fact that a lot of people can stop him feels important. If Superman only has the status of an emperor until such time as he attempts to take advantage of that status, he doesn't really have that status at all.

If the argument is just "Superman is a god-emperor because no one wants to stop him from doing the things he's currently doing" that would make me a god-emperor, too. No one's stopping me from doing the things that I want to do.

[M1982]

You saving people from Red Son Superman's oppressive tyranny?

Would he ever have become such a tyrant if the US didn't keep throwing things like Superior Man and the Green Lantern Force at him? More like Luther manipulated him to fail to then be able to save the day.

[Lord Raziere]

Would he ever have become such a tyrant if the US didn't keep throwing things like Superior Man and the Green Lantern Force at him? More like Luther manipulated him to fail to then be able to save the day.

Ah yes, I assume you somehow think Luther put him an oppressive paranoid regime to be raised in as well, manipulated the rocket traveling backwards through time so that he'd be raised from birth to be an oppressor? your supposedly godlike Luther is a ridiculous assumption. he doesn't have such control over events.

[TeChameleon]

If we assume edge-case feats, the utterly crazy stuff that characters have managed to do once because the writers either have no sense of scale or were shilling them, then a short list of some of the heroic types who could potentially stop a solo Emperor Superman would be:

* Martian Manhunter. Even with Superman's telepathic-martial-arts (Torquasm Vo), J'onn is still the strongest telepath on Earth. Add in a combo platter of powers that puts even Clark's to shame, and he has a decent shot at being one of the strongest heroes in DC. Superman can take him, probably, but he's not going to be in much shape to be ruling anything for a while afterwards.
* The Spectre. If Emperor Superman kills someone, that puts him in the Spectre's purview, and, not to put too fine a point on it, at that point, he's boned.
* Dr. Fate. Magic vs. Superman doesn't tend to have a happy outcome for dear old Kal, and Dr. Fate is tough enough that Supes can't just blitz him (if memory serves, he's actually taken some shots from a mind-controlled Superman and pretty much shrugged them off).
* Captain Marvel/Shazam. Billy is an even match for Supes, with a slight edge because magic.
* Wonder Woman. With the power upgrades she's gotten over the last few years, Wonder Woman has gone from 'might be able to hold her own for a few minutes if she's having a good day' to 'pull out godmode and stomp'.
* The Flash (either of them, but especially Wally). The Flashes have an utterly ludicrous bag of tricks, and if they're bringing their A-Game, then, well... something something Speed Force something... aaaaaand history has been rewritten seventy-six times and Emperor Superman is now Captain Carrot.

And a few that would probably need some help, but could do it...

* Captain Atom. The Captain has faced down with Supes multiple times, and even though Superman has an edge, Captain Atom is tough enough that if he worked with someone of roughly equivalent power, the two could probably bring Emperor Superman down.
* Power Girl and Supergirl. Either of his cousins could be a match for Superman, and one or both would probably be brought in if he went rogue.
* Aquaman and Mera. The two have fought Superman to a standstill in the (recent) past.
* Mr. Miracle and Big Barda. Barda has nearly beaten Superman to death in the past (mind control), and if she tanks for Mr. Miracle, Supey's gonna get boom tubed three realities over and be somebody else' problem.

And that's completely disregarding 'Batman and/or John Constantine has a plan', or a lot of the lesser-known heroes that could probably do some unpleasant things to Superman if the need arose (Blue Beetle III has a weapon labelled 'potential theological implications' as an example, Hawkman has the Claw of Horus, there's literally nothing that Superman could do to permanently stop Plastic Man, Zatanna can magic Superman into oblivion, Etrigan can match Superman blow-for-blow and have fun doing it, Raven can melt his brain, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera).

[Rynjin]

Wouldn't Supes be a pretty bad matchup for Manhunter? I'd think heat vision would solo him.

[Lord Raziere]

Wouldn't Supes be a pretty bad matchup for Manhunter? I'd think heat vision would solo him.

I mean Manhunter is still greatest telepath on Earth and shapeshift into anything, so he doesn't need to beat him in a straight up fight where Supes can see him: just transform into some random dude in some random city, proceed to remote mind-attack him from the other side of the planet. its not as if Superman can track psychic stuff.

[TeChameleon]

Wouldn't Supes be a pretty bad matchup for Manhunter? I'd think heat vision would solo him.

The Martian Manhunter has Ice-Cream Vision, your argument is invalid.

Spoiler: No, I'm not kidding

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[GloatingSwine]

Wouldn't Supes be a pretty bad matchup for Manhunter? I'd think heat vision would solo him.

Heat vision by itself isn't a problem. J'onn isn't vulnerable to heat, he's afraid of fire. At least when he isn't being his turbocharged evil alter-ego that can solo the entire Justice League.

So unless superman catches a serious case of pyromania and uses his heat vision to start loads of fires around J'onn, heat vision isn't a trump card.

[Saqib Ali]

Superman will definitely win the battle because of the extraordinary powers he has.