Monk with natural attacks

[Cespenar]

It says that the monk can use his unarmed strikes with even his feet, shoulders, etc.

This means he can use unarmed strikes with his hands full. But, say, if the monk in question was a half dragon, and has a bite and two claws as his natural attacks, does he get both the natural attacks and his unarmed strikes when he full attacks?

I know one can attack, for example, with a greatsword and bite in the same full attack, but I'm not sure about the unarmed attacks.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes. A eleventh level half-dragon monk would have an attack routine that looked like the following when flurrying: unarmed strike +7/unarmed strike +7/unarmed strike +2/claw +2/claw +2/bite +2.

[brian c]

Hm... a Half-Dragon, Half-Giant (or half-ogre) monk wouldn't be too bad. Nice unarmed and natural weapons damage, strength bonuses for attack and damage, and Large size Half-Dragon means you have wings.

[Cespenar]

Yes. A eleventh level half-dragon monk would have an attack routine that looked like the following when flurrying: unarmed strike +7/unarmed strike +7/unarmed strike +2/claw +2/claw +2/bite +2.

Hmm, thanks.

Hm... a Half-Dragon, Half-Giant (or half-ogre) monk wouldn't be too bad. Nice unarmed and natural weapons damage, strength bonuses for attack and damage, and Large size Half-Dragon means you have wings.

Yes, that was my actual intention.

Edit: Wait, doesn't a 11th level monk have four normal attacks when flurrying? I'm somewhat confused.

[AtomicKitKat]

Yes, Monk 11 gives you that second flurry attack, and removes all penalties from flurrying.

For the record, Half-Giant's Powerful Build is pretty specific about what it qualifies as "Large" for. Half-Dragon wings and improved nautral weapon damage are not included, RAW.

[brian c]

Yes, Monk 11 gives you that second flurry attack, and removes all penalties from flurrying.

For the record, Half-Giant's Powerful Build is pretty specific about what it qualifies as "Large" for. Half-Dragon wings and improved nautral weapon damage are not included, RAW.

Oh yeah; I always just think of Half-Giant as being large because they should be. There's also no reason for them to be psionic, but whatever. Half-Ogre it is then.

[AtomicKitKat]

The problem is that you can't even look to the Feral Gargun to determine it. The Gargun's claws are 1d6, which is "normal" for a Large creature(see Troll, Half-Fiend, Half-Dragon), but some Large creatures use higher damage(1d8 for Large Brown and Polar Bears), or lower damage(Large Lion, 1d4). Anyone else want to chime in?

[Cespenar]

The problem is that you can't even look to the Feral Gargun to determine it. The Gargun's claws are 1d6, which is "normal" for a Large creature(see Troll, Half-Fiend, Half-Dragon), but some Large creatures use higher damage(1d8 for Large Brown and Polar Bears), or lower damage(Large Lion, 1d4). Anyone else want to chime in?

Maybe they have Improved Natural Attack or something. A lion having 1d4 claws doesn't make any sense, though.

Oh, and, any other good large ECL+1 races? And which book is the Half-Ogre in?

[leperkhaun]

Goliath is another option besides Half Ogre, as they get the powerful build feature also.

Miniral warrior is often considered very powerful.

[Zincorium]

Maybe they have Improved Natural Attack or something. A lion having 1d4 claws doesn't make any sense, though.

Oh, and, any other good large ECL+1 races? And which book is the Half-Ogre in?

Half ogre (3.5 anyway) is in Races of Destiny, and it's an LA of +2. Half-Giant and Goliath are +1 LA, but powerful build does not increase unarmed damage, so you're not really helping yourself there.

Really, improved natural attack is your friend here. It applies to unarmed strikes (or any other natural attack you'd like to augment) and it costs a feat rather than a level of zilch, which is what LA really is. LA buyback changes that, obviously.

I'm not aware of any large races which only have an LA of +1 in 3.5 which don't also have scads of racial hit dice to deal with, but if you have the specific issue of dungeon magazine that it's in, there's a +1 LA 'half-minotaur' template in one of them.

Edit: in the area of just 'generally good' templates, Feral (from savage species) or Mineral Warrior (as mentioned above, forgotten realms Underdark) are fairly good, but other than those, unless you get it for free or have some way of buying it off, LA should be in general avoided.

[Cespenar]

Half ogre (3.5 anyway) is in Races of Destiny, and it's an LA of +2. Half-Giant and Goliath are +1 LA, but powerful build does not increase unarmed damage, so you're not really helping yourself there.

Really, improved natural attack is your friend here. It applies to unarmed strikes (or any other natural attack you'd like to augment) and it costs a feat rather than a level of zilch, which is what LA really is. LA buyback changes that, obviously.

I'm not aware of any large races which only have an LA of +1 in 3.5 which don't also have scads of racial hit dice to deal with, but if you have the specific issue of dungeon magazine that it's in, there's a +1 LA 'half-minotaur' template in one of them.

Edit: in the area of just 'generally good' templates, Feral (from savage species) or Mineral Warrior (as mentioned above, forgotten realms Underdark) are fairly good, but other than those, unless you get it for free or have some way of buying it off, LA should be in general avoided.

Thanks. I usually dislike LAs myself, but in this case a large race would both upgrade the unarmed strikes, the natural attacks, the wings, plus its potential bonus to str would apply to his numerous attacks, which is nice.

But, seeing we have already the half-dragon template, a +5 LA sounds really harsh. I'm not sure how it'll turn up.

[Jasdoif]

The problem is that you can't even look to the Feral Gargun to determine it. The Gargun's claws are 1d6, which is "normal" for a Large creature(see Troll, Half-Fiend, Half-Dragon), but some Large creatures use higher damage(1d8 for Large Brown and Polar Bears), or lower damage(Large Lion, 1d4). Anyone else want to chime in?

The table on page 296 of the Monster Manual lists the typical damage done by natural weapons by size, among other size-based suggestions. 1d6 is indeed the typical damage for a Large creature's claw attack.

The damage amount isn't fixed, however. The text on weapon damage says that in general, it's OK to increase or decrease a natural weapon's base damage one or two effective sizes, if the natural weapon is particularly effective or ineffective.

[UserClone]

I'm not aware of any large races which only have an LA of +1 in 3.5 which don't also have scads of racial hit dice to deal with, but if you have the specific issue of dungeon magazine that it's in, there's a +1 LA 'half-minotaur' template in one of them.

Half-Minotaur is in Dragon No. 313. It is buckets of cheesy, buttery awesome.

Edit: in the area of just 'generally good' templates, Feral (from savage species) or Mineral Warrior (as mentioned above, forgotten realms Underdark) are fairly good, but other than those, unless you get it for free or have some way of buying it off, LA should be in general avoided.

Feral is widely opined to be very broken as a +1 LA; most agree it's worth +2, and most DMs will just dismiss it "on the basis of its being from a 3.0 sourcebook" (read: I don't feel like trying to fix your broken template). Mineral Warrior reeks of brokenness as well, in my opinion, but the +4 LA from Half-Dragon and Half-Minotaur/Half-Ogre combined will already be more than enough to keep you from buying off more than +1 of that already high LA, in a non-epic game.

[UserClone]

The damage amount isn't fixed, however. The text on weapon damage says that in general, it's OK to increase or decrease a natural weapon's base damage one or two effective sizes, if the natural weapon is particularly effective or ineffective.

(emphasis mine) I sincerely hope you aren't questioning the effectiveness of a lion's claws? Ever been mauled by a lion?

[Jasdoif]

(emphasis mine) I sincerely hope you aren't questioning the effectiveness of a lion's claws? Ever been mauled by a lion?

I didn't write the lion's monster block.

But whoever did apparently decided a lion's claws are less effective then the usual claws a Large-sized creature possesses, yes.

[UserClone]

That person loses all the internets that they had heretofore earned, and loses the right to earn future internets (internet futures?) until they allow themselves to be clawed by a lion. IRL. (What? EMTs would be standing by, don't be a baby...)

[Cespenar]

Another question.

How's the stacking situation between Monk's Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack? There isn't any "this does not stack with that" anywhere, but my guesses are, either all stack up, or Monk's Belt and Superior don't stack together.

[brian c]

Another question.

How's the stacking situation between Monk's Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack? There isn't any "this does not stack with that" anywhere, but my guesses are, either all stack up, or Monk's Belt and Superior don't stack together.

Improved Natural Attack just makes you count as one size higher, so that will stack with anything (it isn't related to the monk unarmed damage which increases by level).

Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt both increase your effective Monk level for unarmed damage, and since they're both unnamed then they should stack, for a combined +9 monk levels of damage. However, note that Monk unarmed damage does not increase past 20th level, so if you're going Monk 20 then this isn't necessary. Improved Natural Attack still helps at level 20 though, and it's pretty much a necessity for a monk to do decent damage.

[Jasdoif]

Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt both increase your effective Monk level for unarmed damage, and since they're both unnamed then they should stack, for a combined +9 monk levels of damage.

Neither Superior Unarmed Strike nor Monk's Belt actually increase your effective Monk level. They both change the amount of unarmed damage you deal based on your Monk level, without changing your Monk level; they overlap, not stack.

[Cespenar]

Neither Superior Unarmed Strike nor Monk's Belt actually increase your effective Monk level. They both change the amount of unarmed damage you deal based on your Monk level, without changing your Monk level; they overlap, not stack.

What you say seems right, but so does the fact that they are an unnamed type of bonus, as brian_c mentioned.

More comments? Is there a general rule about stacking?

[Jasdoif]

What you say seems right, but so does the fact that they are an unnamed type of bonus, as brian_c mentioned.

Again, they're not a bonus to effective Monk level.

One of them says you deal unarmed damage as if you were a monk five levels higher, without changing your effective Monk level. The other says you deal unarmed damage as if you were a monk four levels higher (if you're a monk), without changing your effective Monk level.

Neither of them increase your effective Monk level, so they have no chance to interact in a stacking way. So they overlap: Each gives an unarmed damage value, and you can only have one unarmed damage value, so you take the bigger one.

[Cespenar]

Very well. I thought like that initially, and +9 bonus to unarmed strike seemed a bit much anyway.

[Weasel2007]

If you wanted could you throw in two-weapon fighting as well to get another couple unarmed strike attacks?

[toddex]

Yes. A eleventh level half-dragon monk would have an attack routine that looked like the following when flurrying: unarmed strike +7/unarmed strike +7/unarmed strike +2/claw +2/claw +2/bite +2.

Son of a beast!!!

I was cheated while playing my werewolf monk! Curse my dm and my lack of experience!

[SoD]

Umm, I think that a goliath would have the large sized unarmed attacks, as powerful build means that the character is considered to be large in any situation where it's advantageous to him. That's from memory, I don't actually have the book with me. And I think that large sized unarmed attacks would count as advantageous. If I'm wrong, just correct me and pretend I never posted here, aye?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Umm, I think that a goliath would have the large sized unarmed attacks, as powerful build means that the character is considered to be large in any situation where it's advantageous to him. That's from memory, I don't actually have the book with me. And I think that large sized unarmed attacks would count as advantageous. If I'm wrong, just correct me and pretend I never posted here, aye?

I think your memory is treating powerful build as advantageous even when it is not.

Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, getting natural attacks is one of the easiest ways to get extra attacks in D&D.

As Silvanos correctly points out, Powerful Build doesn't effect unarmed attacks or natural attacks. So it really doesn't synergize well with Monk.

If you want to boost your unarmed Monk damage, you can wear a Monk's Belt, take Superior Unarmed Strike, and pick up levels of Warshaper, Fist of the Forest, and anything that grants Expansion.

However, you're often better off just picking up damage and effects from other sources, such as Freezing the Lifeblood, ability damage, fear effects, etc.

[DeviousHyde]

Although you can buy an amulet of Mighty fist to further augment your natural attacks, that only goes up to a +5 bonus. If you want to give your happy little fists the flaming quality, or perhaps make your teeth or tail ghost touch or frost, in the book Savage Species on page 58, there is an amulet called the Necklace of Natural Weapons. Of course ask the DM before using because it is from the 3.0 version, but it allows you to augment all natural attacks just like the weapon. It costs 15,600 gp, but it is totally worth it. So if you want to have +1 brilliant energy vorpal teeth, look at this item.

[Admiral Squish]

If you already have a natural attack that deals lethal damage, would improved unarmed strike allow you to deal nonlethal with it? What about bite/sting attacks?

[Armads]

Thread Necromancy?