Community opinion about a interesting Vengeance Paladin

[Frostlight]

Hello guys! I always checked the forum to answer my questions about the game, but only today (after years) I decided to register.
Well, I'm going to start playing a campaign and (as I usually act as a DM) would like some character optimization tips. I don't intend to create the most OP character, just one that does the job well.

The idea is to create a human variant, Vengeance Paladin. The DM allowed the following attributes: 16, 10, 14, 08, 12, 15. As a human variant, I decided to put STR 17 and CON 15. In addition, with the feat Heavy Armor Master, STR stood at 18, totaling: 18, 10, 15, 08, 12, 15.

Weapon of choice: two-handed sword. I think it will do very well with Hunter's Mark. Regarding the evolution of the character, I think about taking the Defense Style, since THF would allow me to replace only the weapon damage dies (not including any Smites).

At the fourth level, I think about raising the CON and CHAR attributes to 16 (always good to have an extra HP and CHAR will be great for future saves).

What do you think about this idea? And what can be acquired at future levels? I confess that I also thought of Polearm master, but as I know that there will be magic items (but few and not very rare for each character), I thought it might be more interesting to get a Two-Handed Flametongue. In the future I consider put the STR at 20 and who knows pick up GWF (despite not being able to say in what order).

Thanks in advance for the tips.

[micahaphone]

Honestly it's hard to go wrong with a paladin, I think you're in a good spot! Do you know what the rest of the party will look like? If you'll have many other melee buddies boosting that CHA can be nice. But vengeance has only the base + saves aura so it's not as much a focus. Later on, Inspiring Leader can be a nice feat, your party will love you, that temp hp really adds up, and would go great with heavy armor master!

[Frostlight]

Honestly it's hard to go wrong with a paladin, I think you're in a good spot! Do you know what the rest of the party will look like? If you'll have many other melee buddies boosting that CHA can be nice. But vengeance has only the base + saves aura so it's not as much a focus. Later on, Inspiring Leader can be a nice feat, your party will love you, that temp hp really adds up, and would go great with heavy armor master!

Thanks for the tip. I didn't really think about Inspiring Leader, but it can really be a good feat. As for the other players, we are in a group with only three adventurers. I believe that one of them will play bladesinger, the other has already thought about several characters, but without deciding yet, but it is certain that the two will also be melee. CHAR is not really the focus and I don't think I will increase the attribute again beyond this increase in level 4 (which will also will increase my CON).

EDIT: OR.... I can start with a 16 CON and 14 CHAR and increase CON or STR at lvl 4.

[Keravath]

This is just an opinion but there are some/many who think of the primary stat for a paladin being charisma rather than strength. Getting charisma to 20 before strength to 20 can be desirable. The main reason for this opinion is the strength of the level 6 aura which adds the paladin charisma bonus to ALL their own saving throws and any other characters within 10'.

This does depend on what level you plan to play at. If you are playing a game that goes from levels 1-5 and then you will move on to something else, none of the choices really matter. You will typically see some spell casters but not many.

However, if your game will go from levels 6-10 and especially getting into levels 11-16 then having the aura at +5 far exceeds any benefit gained from raising your strength from 18 to 20. In one case, you gain a +1 to hit and damage, in the other, given you were considering a 14 or 16 charisma and not raising it, the difference is +2 or +3 to ALL saving throws for yourself and any party member within 10'. Since your party sounds like it will be mostly melee, that is a huge difference.

Anyway, if you aren't considering resilient (con) as an option then your plan to start with strength 18, boosting con and cha to 16 at level 4, sounds fine. Perhaps by the time you reach level 8 you may have a better idea of whether bumping str or cha will be a better choice.

P.S. Paladins are great characters, the biggest weaknesses of a variant human strength based paladin are lack of darkvision and lack of an effective ranged attack option - javelins are an ok stopgap but limited range means that they aren't as effective as they could be. Some folks choose to take two levels of warlock for agonizing blast and the devils sight invocations to remedy this but depending on your game and the others in your party it may not be needed.

[Frostlight]

This is just an opinion but there are some/many who think of the primary stat for a paladin being charisma rather than strength. Getting charisma to 20 before strength to 20 can be desirable. The main reason for this opinion is the strength of the level 6 aura which adds the paladin charisma bonus to ALL their own saving throws and any other characters within 10'.

This does depend on what level you plan to play at. If you are playing a game that goes from levels 1-5 and then you will move on to something else, none of the choices really matter. You will typically see some spell casters but not many.

However, if your game will go from levels 6-10 and especially getting into levels 11-16 then having the aura at +5 far exceeds any benefit gained from raising your strength from 18 to 20. In one case, you gain a +1 to hit and damage, in the other, given you were considering a 14 or 16 charisma and not raising it, the difference is +2 or +3 to ALL saving throws for yourself and any party member within 10'. Since your party sounds like it will be mostly melee, that is a huge difference.

Anyway, if you aren't considering resilient (con) as an option then your plan to start with strength 18, boosting con and cha to 16 at level 4, sounds fine. Perhaps by the time you reach level 8 you may have a better idea of whether bumping str or cha will be a better choice.

P.S. Paladins are great characters, the biggest weaknesses of a variant human strength based paladin are lack of darkvision and lack of an effective ranged attack option - javelins are an ok stopgap but limited range means that they aren't as effective as they could be. Some folks choose to take two levels of warlock for agonizing blast and the devils sight invocations to remedy this but depending on your game and the others in your party it may not be needed.

Interesting. Since most characters will be melee, I think that a good charisma value for saves can be a good idea. We intend to play up to level 10 (at least in theory). Perhaps leaving the force at 18 is a good one and from there it will be interesting to improve the charisma.

Edit: Really, lack of darkvision and a consistent ranged attack can be a problem. As mentioned earlier, we will have access to magic items (although not many) and I believe that this can be resolved (at least in part) with the Flametongue and some wand (which requires attunement by some spellcaster) with a Ranged or AoE attack. I think those are great options and both are just rare items.

[RogueJK]

This is just an opinion but there are some/many who think of the primary stat for a paladin being charisma rather than strength.

Yes, but that's somewhat less important for a Vengeance Paladin. It's the least spell- and save-dependent of the Paladin Oaths, focused more on buffing and damage output. You still want a good CHA, especially at Level 6+, but you don't necessarily need to prioritize it over STR like on some other Paladin types.

[Frostlight]

Yes, but that's less important for a Vengeance Paladin. It's the least spell- and save-dependent of the Paladin Oaths, focused more on buffing and damage output. You still want a good CHA, especially at Level 6+, but it's not necessarily to prioritize it over STR like on some other Paladin types.

I think I'll wait untill lvl 8 to see what the table needs more: 18 STR and 18 CHAR or 20 STR and 16 CHAR.

[RogueJK]

I do think 18/18 STR/CHA is usually a better option than 20/16 STR/CHA, even for a Vengeance Paladin.

I'd go for +1 CON/+1 CHA at 4th, then +2 CHA at 8th, or possibly Great Weapon Master at 8th (if you're using Greatswords). GWM is especially nice for boosting the damage of a Vengeance Paladin, since 1/short rest they can get automatic Advantage on each attack against a big enemy from their Channel Divinity Vow of Emnity, which helps cancel out the -5 attack penalty from GWM.

Vengeance Paladins also pair nicely with Polearm Master + Sentinel, especially at Level 7+.

[KorvinStarmast]

S 18, D 10, C 15, I 08, W 12, Ch 15.

At the fourth level, I think about raising the CON and CHAR attributes to 16 (always good to have an extra HP and CHAR will be great for future saves).

What do you think about this idea? And what can be acquired at future levels?

1. Solid Plan
2. Who else is in the party?
(What character classes and sub classes? That will inform any further suggestions I have)
3. Your ASI at level 8 should probably be Ch 18. It's your spell casting ability and powers that aura.
4. Do you know how long the campaign will last?

If you get to level 12, the choice between a feat (Inspiring Leader, yes!) 20 STR or 20 Cha could be a tough one, which is why I ask who else is in your party.

[Catullus64]

Weapon of choice: two-handed sword. I think it will do very well with Hunter's Mark. Regarding the evolution of the character, I think about taking the Defense Style, since THF would allow me to replace only the weapon damage dies (not including any Smites).

Strictly speaking, I don't think this is true. The Great Weapon Figting style grants its rerolls on "a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding in two hands." If it were only for the sword itself, I think it would specify "the weapon's damage die", like the Savage Attacker feat does. Divine Smite is part of the attack, if not part of the weapon's damage, so its dice are eligible for Great Weapon rerolls.

All that said, Defense is still a good pick. Can't deal damage if you're dead!

[KorvinStarmast]

Strictly speaking, I don't think this is true. The Great Weapon Figting style grants its rerolls on "a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding in two hands." If it were only for the sword itself, I think it would specify "the weapon's damage die", like the Savage Attacker feat does. Divine Smite is part of the attack, if not part of the weapon's damage, so its dice are eligible for Great Weapon rerolls.

I agree with you, evenb though the save advice article on that suggests ruling otherwise.

[RogueJK]

Edit: Really, lack of darkvision and a consistent ranged attack can be a problem.

Ranged/flying enemies are a STR-based Paladin's biggest weakness. Thrown Javelins can get you by in some situations, but their range is short.

But dipping 1 level of Sorcerer or Warlock gets you a CHA-based ranged attack cantrip or two (like Chill Touch or Eldritch Blast), some utility cantrips (like Light for your lack of Darkvision), a couple additional 1st level buff spells (like Absorb Elements, Shield, or Armor of Agathys), extra spell slots for Smiting, and a few additional class abilities. This is a good way to shore up the Paladin's main weakness, at the cost of delaying your Paladin progression by 1 level. Usually done either right off the bat (after Paladin 1 or 2), or otherwise waiting until after Paladin 6.

Of the two, my preference is Sorcerer, unless I'm going for a CHA-focused Hexblade dip build.

[Valmark]

If we are considering dips, 2 levels of Hexblade will allow you to focus fully on Charisma, get Darkvision and have a good ranged attack. If you put your 14 in Strenght with the feat you can use a full plate with no problem.

A single level won't solve the Darkvision problem and the ranged attack will be weaker, though you still get the benefit if attacking with Charisma.

[Gtdead]

Feats:

HAM - Thuthfully, I dislike this feat. It's good early for the first few levels but drops in effectiveness as the game progresses. I'm assuming that you will reach higher levels than early Tier 2, so I would advice against it.

GWM - Vengeance is one of the two Paladin subclasses that can make good use of GWM (the other is devotion). I think you should give it a thought. GWM with advantage is better than non GWM with Hunter's Mark. One is a short rest combo and the other is a long rest one. Also it allows you to do an extra attack if you score a kill which can be handy against multiple low health enemies. As a bonus, the +10 is so substantial that going for GWF becomes kind of redundant. I would pick defense style with GWM. And you can always use Bless if you can prepare, which will help the rest of your team.

PAM - There is a bit of conflict with this one for Vengeance in particular. Usually I advocate for PAM + Divine Favor for Paladins. Even for Vengeance, while it does less damage than Hunter's Mark, it uses your bonus action only once the first time you cast and doesn't need retargeting. The other problem is that you already have a very strong use of your bonus action through Channel Divinity. I would get PAM later, at lvl 12 to synergize with improved divine smite.

Inspiring Leader - I wouldn't pick that for a Vengeance Paladin. It's probably better than HAM though so if you don't care for GWM or PAM, this is what I'd pick

STR vs CHA:

Going for CHA can be awesome, or it can be completely pointless. If you are going to use the smite spells, it's ok. If you have a melee concentration user like a cleric in your party, it's great. If you just use spells like HM/Shield of Faith/Bless etc, you should just go for STR.

Fighting Style:

I already talked a bit about it. In my experience, GWF can be good at early levels to oneshot the low health enemies instead of leaving them with 1-2 health and it will synergize with GWM to that end. But once you start getting higher health enemies, this small increase (1.3 dpr on average per attack), will go completely unnoticed. I personally dislike having to roll more than necessary but this is just me.

I consider GWF a bad style while I love Defense.

[RogueJK]

Feats:

HAM - It's good early for the first few levels but drops in effectiveness as the game progresses.

I agree. However, it's one of the best options for a +1 STR half-feat, if starting from Level 1, even if most of the usefulness of the damage reduction will be at lower levels.

If he's wanting a half-feat, there aren't really any other really good options (yet) for this character to use on STR/CON/CHA at Level 1. Athlete might have some niche utility, Resilient STR could have some occasional usefulness for STR saving throws until Level 6, or Resilient CON could help with Concentration until Level 6, but none of those are great choices for this character.

Besides, OP stated that they think the campaign will run through Level ~10, so HAM would still be very useful for the majority of the campaign.


However, once the new Tasha's feats are an option, then Fey Touched with +1 CHA could be a better option, followed by going +1 STR/CON at Level 4 instead. Take a ranged damage spell like Dissonant Whispers as your 1st level Enchantment spell choice, to shore up the Paladin's lack of ranged damage options. You'd get 1 free casting per day of both Dissonant Whispers and Misty Step starting from Level 1, plus can use spell slots to cast them again once you have Paladin slots of those levels.

[da newt]

I believe FIND STEED is one of the greatest features of the Paladin class.

[Frostlight]

I do think 18/18 STR/CHA is usually a better option than 20/16 STR/CHA, even for a Vengeance Paladin.

I'd go for +1 CON/+1 CHA at 4th, then +2 CHA at 8th, or possibly Great Weapon Master at 8th (if you're using Greatswords). GWM is especially nice for boosting the damage of a Vengeance Paladin, since 1/short rest they can get automatic Advantage on each attack against a big enemy from their Channel Divinity Vow of Emnity, which helps cancel out the -5 attack penalty from GWM.

Vengeance Paladins also pair nicely with Polearm Master + Sentinel, especially at Level 7+.

18/18 seems solid. Great Weapon Master is also a good choice, but either for lvl 8 or 12, but better with a +X GS and not so good with a Flametongue.
Polearm + Sentinal is also great, but ir requires too many feats.

1. Solid Plan
2. Who else is in the party?
(What character classes and sub classes? That will inform any further suggestions I have)
3. Your ASI at level 8 should probably be Ch 18. It's your spell casting ability and powers that aura.
4. Do you know how long the campaign will last?

We're a group of three. One of them will probably play a bladesinger, the other might play as something martial, but he doesn't know yet. The campaign will go untill lvl 15, I guess.

Strictly speaking, I don't think this is true. The Great Weapon Figting style grants its rerolls on "a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding in two hands." If it were only for the sword itself, I think it would specify "the weapon's damage die", like the Savage Attacker feat does. Divine Smite is part of the attack, if not part of the weapon's damage, so its dice are eligible for Great Weapon rerolls.

I agree with you, but our GM will listen to the SA.

Of the two, my preference is Sorcerer, unless I'm going for a CHA-focused Hexblade dip build.

Looks great, but didn't want to multiclass. But I'll consider, anyway.

If we are considering dips, 2 levels of Hexblade will allow you to focus fully on Charisma, get Darkvision and have a good ranged attack. If you put your 14 in Strenght with the feat you can use a full plate with no problem.

Good, but to use a 2handed weapon I would require pact of the blade, so I would need to take 3 lvls.

I agree. However, it's one of the best options for a +1 STR half-feat, if starting from Level 1, even if most of the usefulness of the damage reduction will be at lower levels.

If he's wanting a half-feat, there aren't really any other really good options for this character to use on STR/CON/CHA at Level 1. Athlete might have some niche utility, Resilient STR could have some occasional usefulness for STR saving throws until Level 6, or Resilient CON could help with Concentration until Level 6, but none of those are great choices for this character.

Besides, OP stated that they think the campaign will run through Level ~10, so HAM would still be very useful for the majority of the campaign.

About HAM, thats exactly what I think.

[KorvinStarmast]

We're a group of three. One of them will probably play a bladesinger, the other might play as something martial, but he doesn't know yet. The campaign will go untill lvl 15, I guess.

1 Paladin, 1 Wizard/Bladesinger, 1???

The only thing I'd suggest beyond that is perhaps a Resilient Con as a final feat to get proficiency in con saves if you end up being the one who has concentration spells up like Bless, etc.

Beyond that, when you get to 12, review and revise, maybe getting a level or two in sorcerer or warlock will get you some ranged attacks for those times that your melee weapon can't reach the enemy.

PS: our tempest cleric was still getting some use out of the Heavy Armor Master feat at level 15, as well as the healer feat.

[Frostlight]

1 Paladin, 1 Wizard/Bladesinger, 1???

The only thing I'd suggest beyond that is perhaps a Resilient Con as a final feat to get proficiency in con saves if you end up being the one who has concentration spells up like Bless, etc.

Is Resilient still needed? With 18 Char and 16 Con I'll have +7 in that save. Would I need more than that? In higher levels I think that would be.

Beyond that, when you get to 12, review and revise, maybe getting a level or two in sorcerer or warlock will get you some ranged attacks for those times that your melee weapon can't reach the enemy.

Good idea.

PS: our tempest cleric was still getting some use out of the Heavy Armor Master feat at level 15, as well as the healer feat.

It looks like a good combination

[RogueJK]

Is Resilient still needed? With 18 Char and 16 Con I'll have +7 in that save.

And with Bless running (which you'll want in almost all big combats), you'll have effectively +9.5 to Concentration checks.

Would I need more than that?

Generally, no. A +9 to CON saves ensures that you can pass all standard DC 10 Concentration checks, even if you roll a 1. And you have a better than average chance at passing massive damage Concentration checks all the way up to 40 damage.

Getting an additional +Proficiency to CON doesn't net you much there.


You'd get potentially a little more benefit from taking it at Level 1, to tide you over from Level 2-6 until you get +CHA to Concentration. But even then, it's not really worth it. You'll already have +5.5 on average from Bless + 16 CON, so you'd pass a standard Concentration check 80% of the time, and massive damage checks aren't usually encountered at lower levels. (Partly because enemies aren't doing that much damage usually, and partly because if it's that massive it's probably massive enough to outright drop you unconscious.)


Because of the baked-in +CHA to saves plus additional d4 from Bless in many fights, Resilient is typically only worth considering on a Paladin to shore up a commonly targeted non-proficient dump stat, and even then only in some situations. Like if your Paladin has an 8 DEX but your campaign is about busting up a large cabal of AoE blaster Wizards. Or your Paladin has an 8 INT but the big bad is a colony of Mind Flayers.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is Resilient still needed?

Probably not. I have a personal obsession with not losing conc while the battle is still going, so that was maybe me being me.

It looks like a good combination

It was suprisingly effective for our party.

[Frostlight]

And with Bless running (which you'll want in almost all big combats), you'll have effectively +9.5 to Concentration checks.

Bless is truly a great magic. But Hunter's Mark in many cases would also make the difference, but it's better for combats where enemies are easier to hit and with no saving throws.

Probably not. I have a personal obsession with not losing conc while the battle is still going, so that was maybe me being me.
It was suprisingly effective for our party.

I understand. Better safe than sorry.

[Corran]

Hello guys! I always checked the forum to answer my questions about the game, but only today (after years) I decided to register.
Well, I'm going to start playing a campaign and (as I usually act as a DM) would like some character optimization tips. I don't intend to create the most OP character, just one that does the job well.

The idea is to create a human variant, Vengeance Paladin. The DM allowed the following attributes: 16, 10, 14, 08, 12, 15. As a human variant, I decided to put STR 17 and CON 15. In addition, with the feat Heavy Armor Master, STR stood at 18, totaling: 18, 10, 15, 08, 12, 15.

Weapon of choice: two-handed sword. I think it will do very well with Hunter's Mark. Regarding the evolution of the character, I think about taking the Defense Style, since THF would allow me to replace only the weapon damage dies (not including any Smites).

At the fourth level, I think about raising the CON and CHAR attributes to 16 (always good to have an extra HP and CHAR will be great for future saves).

What do you think about this idea? And what can be acquired at future levels? I confess that I also thought of Polearm master, but as I know that there will be magic items (but few and not very rare for each character), I thought it might be more interesting to get a Two-Handed Flametongue. In the future I consider put the STR at 20 and who knows pick up GWF (despite not being able to say in what order).

Thanks in advance for the tips.

On a vhuman vengeance paladin, I would like to end up with PAM, resilience con and GWM by level 8 (probably in that order too), followed by STR bumps (if you haven't found a str boosting item by that time). I'd also prioritize charisma over con. And I'd look at bless and later on at haste as my main two routines for concentration (generally, bless when VoE is off, haste when VoE is used; though avoid haste if you think the enemies can spike their damage significantly, even if VoE is on; eg, dragons).

So, with that in mind, I'd put my racial stat boosts at con and cha, so that I'd end up with even numbers after I get resilient con, and with a minimum charisma of 16.

[KorvinStarmast]

I understand. Better safe than sorry.

One last thought. About when to dip I'd say after level 5, but whenever it feels right based on how your party is doing. You could do it at level 2 but being a bit behind in ASI and extra attacks might get kinda harsh once you hit Tier 2 Adventuring.

A single level dip into Sorcerer, Shadows origin, gets you ranged spell attacks (cantrips) and darkvision and a "get up to 1 HP when at 0 HP per long rest" and two level 1 spells.

Pick four cantrips: I'd go with Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, Chill Touch and any one utility cantrip (Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, whatever)
Chill Touch stops enemy regen, ray of frost slows them down, firebolt has decent range and decent damage, and can light candles, set things on fire, etc.
Some Level Sorcerer spells that can help you include:
Shield, Fog Cloud, Feather Fall, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat.

I'd probably go Shield and Feather fall, for those times when you are in trouble, and leave the rest of the fancy spells to your Blade Singer.