General Larp Thread

[The Glyphstone]

I'm gonna be sorry if it's stereotyping, I've only played the video game Vampire the mascarade, but did the playerbase of those larp recreated the VTM ambiance in their OOC by having the olders players hug all the power and patronise the new ones, and being generaly as toxic as the vampires from this universe ? Because if so, it's truly impressive, in a sad way. But I've heard that those larp often attract the wrong crowd.

It remind me of a 40K Larp focused on the bureaucracy of the administratum making mistake being a utter faillure because the organisation between the logistics, scenari, and PNJ was itself very crappy and untested.

Not as bad as you might think. OOC most of the veterans were friendly and inviting to new players - in part because it was the other rival cliques of veterans they reserved their venom and bile for. New people were potential allies to be recruited into their side of whatever OOC spite-feud was currently raging.

[Kickaha]

On the subject of stories, one of my favorites, while less crazy thinking back, was pretty cool at the time. This is from back when we had a three-limbs-and-you're-out system (and way too many rules, since this was when we were like fourteen and had no clue how to actually design a game for playability, but I digress).

Basically, there was a large open area, covered in a foot or two of snow. Since this was a 'battle game' event more than roleplaying, at one end of the field was a shrine to the goddess of healing - if you could touch one and wait a few minutes, you could get back to full health. At the other end of the field was Joey. He'd been in a fight and managed to live, but he'd had both his legs taken out, so he was lying in the snow looking pretty discouraged. He also had a boffer quarterstaff and a spear. I'd been watching from the woods while the fighting went down, so when it was clear I called out to him and reminded him of the shrine. He sat up, looked thoughtful for a minute; then, as the sounds of the battle coming back in our direction got louder, he planted his pole weapons in the snow, dragged himself up, and 'walked' the thirty yards or so to the shrine.
Without using his legs.

I, not being possessed of that sort of upper body strength, was very impressed.

[RochtheCrusher]

No idea if there are enough larpers on this forum to get this any traction, but why not. So here's a thread for talking about larp, I guess? I'll start with a question (but feel free to ask your own): What larp do you go to? (Or pick one if you attend multiple). What's your favorite thing about it - setting aspects, mechanics, player culture, campsite, whatever?

In the old days, when the air was safe to breathe, I went to Mythical Journeys, in Connecticut. It was my first major LARP, and it's likely a fairly generic high fantasy thing, but it's where I got my start.

I just love the format of LARP, and how you don't have to wait your turn. There are real, true secrets possible, and you can lie without people knowing it's a lie... or desperately try to tell the truth to someone who honestly doesn't believe.

Probably my favorite aspects are the hard skills... you pay some level of points to be eligible to hold a lockpick or a spear or to get a decoder for magical runes, but practice makes or breaks you. With enough practise, you use those ten points to effortlessly pop open the lock and read the magical inscription by sight... without it, the lock defeats you and you have to work on the inscription for an hour. Excellent newbie catch-up mechanic, if folks are willing to write a couple essays in Dwarven and/or study their locks.

I also love how my Arcane Trickster with a bit of healing and a polearm fit into the open system... not being forced to be just a mage or a fighter was greatly appreciated.

[inespie]

I just love the format of LARP, and how you don't have to wait your turn. There are real, true secrets possible, and you can lie without people knowing it's a lie... or desperately try to tell the truth to someone who honestly doesn't believe.

I don't understand what you mean by that. You can lie without people knowing it's a lie. Almost all larp have a form of diplomacy, and thus lies, be it inside or outside your group.
When can people can not have true secret and can not lie to people ?
And wait your turn... do you mean linear LARP with instancied stuff where the organisation create a... well instance for a certain number of player and others have to wait for their instance ?

I would agree that if you don't have something to do, it would be crappy.
I've had a LARP with ressource and stuff like that, and ressource collection was just having a skill, sitting arround in a place, and gaining ressource defined by your mining/woodcutting level. Awfull design.

Probably my favorite aspects are the hard skills... you pay some level of points to be eligible to hold a lockpick or a spear or to get a decoder for magical runes, but practice makes or breaks you. With enough practise, you use those ten points to effortlessly pop open the lock and read the magical inscription by sight... without it, the lock defeats you and you have to work on the inscription for an hour. Excellent newbie catch-up mechanic, if folks are willing to write a couple essays in Dwarven and/or study their locks.

I'm sorry I don't understand that either. You pay points for a skill, but can use also points to win a skill check or have to do it for real ? are those the same points ?

[RochtheCrusher]

I don't understand what you mean by that. You can lie without people knowing it's a lie. Almost all larp have a form of diplomacy, and thus lies, be it inside or outside your group.
When can people can not have true secret and can not lie to people ?
And wait your turn... do you mean linear LARP with instancied stuff where the organisation create a... well instance for a certain number of player and others have to wait for their instance ?

Ah yes, I'm contrasting with my only other experience... tabletop roleplaying. In a tabletop game, everyone knows you're bluffing because you rolled Bluff, not Diplomacy. Everyone was there when you stole the thing, so they're just pretending not to know.

In LARP, you can actually BE lost in the crowd, and you can accomplish things while others were busy elsewhere. No turns, no pretended ignorance, just, "Huh. Sometime in the past two hours, that guard was killed and the MacGuffin went missing. My one clue is a genuine footprint in the mud, and that could be anybody's."

I'm sorry I don't understand that either. You pay points for a skill, but can use also points to win a skill check or have to do it for real ? are those the same points ?

In our game, we have what are effectively experience points that can be spent on skills. Each player has a cap on their total skills determined by how long they've been playing, but skills are of different types.

"Soft" skills are largely abstracted. I buy a rank in Parry for some amount of experience points, and that allows me to negate one hit I take throughout the weekend. There's not a lot of ways to get more mileage out of that, so you need to sink a lot of points into such skills to be effective.

"Hard" skills are largely based on real-world competence. I buy a rank in Lockpicks, and that allows me to use lockpicks and attempt to open combination locks I don't own. We use real locks, which are marked to indicate that you have real-world permission to pick them because they're part of the game. The skill is actually cheaper than a rank of Parry, but I can use it an unlimited number of times. If I the player can learn to open locks quickly, I can get a LOT of mileage out of few experience points... useful for when you are new, and trying to contribute with far fewer points than others have.

Similarly, Read Magic is a "hard" skill, because once you have access to the meanings of various symbols, it's up to you whether you carry that knowledge in your pocket or in your brain. Once you use the symbols enough, you can recognize the common letters and know that, "Oh, this is some sort of incantation dealing with fire... attacks? Expensive mana cost, and it requires a component I'm not familiar with. Lemme check if that's a letter V or Z..." while the other guy is still searching for his notes.

This allows one to be new and weak, but very COMPETENT in certain things.

[inespie]

Heh, interesting ! I would love to have a game where lock are lock. Usually they are often code lock and lockpicking give you access to those code, but having to crack them really would be way more interesting. Are those particular, traning lock, or just a bunch of cheap one ? afterall, you need some tools, too.
I had a stage of lockpicking I was inscribed to per chance but it was canceled. It was the begining of the corona stuff era. seemed interesting.

But behind the concept of Hard skill hide a can of worm in Larp game design. WYSIWYG, or abstraction ? Point based rules can mean a mmorpg Xp oriented ambiance, while skill based (and often equipement based) make a lot of people feel left out. It seem hard to strike a balance on that.

[Wraith]

UK-based LARPer here. Or I should say, former LARPer. I used to attend two different systems, one of which folded when a number of players moved away and another where I kind of realised that I don't like LARPers very much.

The former was a local group called Emanon - the same ~15 people had been running and playing it for about 15 years and it was my introduction to LARPing when I was about 18. Ridiculously high-magic setting that was mostly cribbed from AD&D and the main plotline was blatantly stolen from the novel Magician by Raymond E. Feist... but it was quirky and the classes were all stupid and broken, and it was a small enough group that everyone knew each other outside of the game so it was mostly just an excuse to meet up every few months at a local campsite, get drunk, and play make-believe with rubber swords. It taught me a lot of bad habits, on reflection, but all in all I wouldn't have traded the experience for the world.

The second system I played in was the UK's other premier LARP system after Empire, known as the Lorien Trust. One of the biggest events in Europe in it's heyday, allegedly attracting up to 4,000 players, it was in decline when I joined somewhere around 2010. One of my Emanon buddies introduced me to his group in the Viper Faction, and while they were all nice guys LT has a serious problem of politics - it's really really hard to get involved in anything as a new player, as all of the established characters never die unless they volunteer to for a plot, and the NPC staff clearly have favourites who get first dibs on anything interesting that comes by.

My character was a Ritualist, and in the space of about 14 events (each running from Friday morning to Sunday evening) over 5 years I pretty much spent a total of 3 hours doing what my character was spec'd to do and little else, so I struggled to stay invested for much longer.
Meanwhile, every day was a new drama where some player had kicked up a fuss, gotten into an argument that was as much OOC as it was meant to be IC, and then suddenly "had a headache" or "had to go for a nap" when angry opponents turned up to settle the score. As a result, everywhere you looked there were petty arguments and little jealousies between not just Factions but between groups within the Faction and everyone was being as passive-aggressive about it as possible - At one point, my group spent approximately 6 consecutive events monstering for our own faction, because by amazing coincidence a lot of people suddenly "had Guild business" or "had a migraine" when it was their turn to de-kit and do their part.

All in all, one day I left an LT event and just never went back - I even abandoned one of my swords somewhere because someone was using it and I didn't care to wait for them to finish and bring it back. Maybe one day I'll LARP again - I'd quite like to try a smaller parlour game, maybe White Wolf or something just as an excuse to dress up and do voices at people, but I think LT has forever soured my opinion of large events.

As for wacky stories, I can't think of a better one than the legend of the Cheese Owls:

Spoiler

Show

So many many years ago, when all you wee bairns were still in grade school or whatever nonsense you call it, I would LARP regularly in a little home-grown system called Emanon.
The highlight of our year would be to rent out a scout campsite for the group and have a weekend to ourselves - just use, a rickety old cabin and 50 acres of woods to run around dressed as wizards and hit each other with foam padded sticks
Alcohol may or may not have been involved
One year, traipsing through a wet, dark, English autumn at 11:30pm, something scurried past the group in the dark and scared the crap out of us.
"What was that!?" cried Stuart, who was a big broad guy with the constitution of a kitten.
"Cheese Owls" Said Matt, our GM
"Cheese Owls?" Asked Stuart, agog. "Yep, Cheese Owls." Confirmed Matt, nodding sagely and grinning broadly at me. "They're like barn owls, but they don't fly very much and live in burrows UNDER barns, and in basements where dairy is kept cool. Hence, cheese owls"
"Oh yeah!" Said Stuart, confidence in his eyes. "Of course it was, I had heard about them...." Matt looked at me, and subtly made a hook-in-the-mouth-gesture
Later on that evening, we were inside the cabin, role-playing some dumb encounter with some guy dressed in a black sheet - the universal sign that he was powerful and evil.
At which point, Big Luke appeared on the other side of the window where I was sitting, a torch under his face. VERY scary! Especially when he pressed his lips to the glass and "gold-fished" at me in the dark.
I thought I would be funny, and bonked on him on where his nose would be, just to bang on the glass and scare him.
**SMASH**
It was 2am, pitch black, and suddenly I was holding up 4ft of glass window on the back of my bare hand, the rest of it having fallen to the floor in splinters.
....****
Obviously I said "Oh ****" and moved my hand, letting the rest of the glass fall to the ground as everyone else in the room went as white as a sheet and/or fled out of the nearest door.
We were only renting the building, you see, so this was Very Bad™
Being the responsible, stoic and generally heroic person that I am, I said "****" a few more times and then walked in the dark and rain to the caretaker's office. I would admit my guilt, offer to pay for the damages, and throw myself upon their mercy for the good of the group.
The caretaker, such as it was, was a 17 year old boy and 5 of his mates, obviously being paid a pittance in beer and weed to stay overnight and just let us get on with what we were doing in peace.
He didn't have a clue what we were really doing, so I owned up like an adult.
"Uhh... yeah... something has happened... I think something might have gotten a bit.... broken?"
10 minutes later
6 rather high teenagers were pottering around, looking at the broken window and generally agreeing that yes, that window was broken. No one was hurt though, so we swept it up and each went back to our business
Just before leaving, the Head Teenager looked to me and said, "Weird how it broke like that. Did you see anything hit it or something?"
Obviously, I gave them the most honest and truthful answer that I could think of.
"Might have been a Cheese Owl. I hear they live in these parts, and they're not great at flying."
And THAT'S the story of how I got away scott-free with smashing a window and not having to pay for it while dressed a furry catman ninja, because he seemed to believe me and left for his nice cosy weed. Thus was born the legend of the Upper Leicester Cheese Owls, our own private Cryptid since responsible for just about everything that we didn't want to be.

Absolutely true story. I still have the scar on the back of my hand, to prove it.

[Avaris]

Ah yes, I'm contrasting with my only other experience... tabletop roleplaying. In a tabletop game, everyone knows you're bluffing because you rolled Bluff, not Diplomacy. Everyone was there when you stole the thing, so they're just pretending not to know.

In LARP, you can actually BE lost in the crowd, and you can accomplish things while others were busy elsewhere. No turns, no pretended ignorance, just, "Huh. Sometime in the past two hours, that guard was killed and the MacGuffin went missing. My one clue is a genuine footprint in the mud, and that could be anybody's."

There’s a saying in my larp circles, ‘lying is OP’. It’s actually a massive problem in some ways: a lot of the social contract is based around being able to trust what someone else is saying is happening, as we can’t actually verify it ourselves. Particularly applies to game organisers: NEVER send an NPC with a brief if ‘lie to the players’ with the expectation that they’ll be caught in the lie. They won’t.

In our game, we have what are effectively experience points that can be spent on skills. Each player has a cap on their total skills determined by how long they've been playing, but skills are of different types.

"Soft" skills are largely abstracted. I buy a rank in Parry for some amount of experience points, and that allows me to negate one hit I take throughout the weekend. There's not a lot of ways to get more mileage out of that, so you need to sink a lot of points into such skills to be effective.

"Hard" skills are largely based on real-world competence. I buy a rank in Lockpicks, and that allows me to use lockpicks and attempt to open combination locks I don't own. We use real locks, which are marked to indicate that you have real-world permission to pick them because they're part of the game. The skill is actually cheaper than a rank of Parry, but I can use it an unlimited number of times. If I the player can learn to open locks quickly, I can get a LOT of mileage out of few experience points... useful for when you are new, and trying to contribute with far fewer points than others have.

Similarly, Read Magic is a "hard" skill, because once you have access to the meanings of various symbols, it's up to you whether you carry that knowledge in your pocket or in your brain. Once you use the symbols enough, you can recognize the common letters and know that, "Oh, this is some sort of incantation dealing with fire... attacks? Expensive mana cost, and it requires a component I'm not familiar with. Lemme check if that's a letter V or Z..." while the other guy is still searching for his notes.

This allows one to be new and weak, but very COMPETENT in certain things.

That sounds utterly horrible as a system to me: I larp so I can do things I can’t do IRL! For example, one of the best experiences I’ve had was when my sneaky assassin character was sneaking up on a place: though I was being careful and acting stealthy, there is no way I could have done it successfully had the NPCs not been briefed to act as if I was actually stealthy! But different strokes for different folks I guess.

[inespie]

There’s a saying in my larp circles, ‘lying is OP’. It’s actually a massive problem in some ways: a lot of the social contract is based around being able to trust what someone else is saying is happening, as we can’t actually verify it ourselves. Particularly applies to game organisers: NEVER send an NPC with a brief if ‘lie to the players’ with the expectation that they’ll be caught in the lie. They won’t.



That sounds utterly horrible as a system to me: I larp so I can do things I can’t do IRL! For example, one of the best experiences I’ve had was when my sneaky assassin character was sneaking up on a place: though I was being careful and acting stealthy, there is no way I could have done it successfully had the NPCs not been briefed to act as if I was actually stealthy! But different strokes for different folks I guess.

As I said, can of worms.
Npc will happily force themselve to not see, players often will... kinda. Uppon a "invisible" apparition, often people will feel a urge to put down their coffee and polish their swords, or sit on the faction coffer. I know that, uppon hearing this, even with all the goodwill I can muster, I will change from the torpor of the safe zone to a semi ready for trouble mindset. Also, it's not fun forcing yourself to not see. I would leave those for thing that you can not really emulate, like magic.
I have a scout on my group one time, he had such a camo net that I walked on him twice. His existance added something to the larp.

On the contrary, I would be midly pissed off if someone told me this dude that make zero effort at stealth, neither in their costume and action is invisible by a call.


One time, in a mine, we scarred a group of PJ and drove them back while being vastly inferior. trashmob, just because a mine is a scary place for someone not used to it. They were advancing slowly in a big corridor, connected in each side by small perpendicular galery. At the end of the long corridor there was something making weird noise, that was As they did not dare to divide and leave their big corridor, and we were hidding and ambushing them from dark tunnel on each side. A few shot, then we fled to another tunnel, and while we were two and them more than ten... Well they did try to advance a bit, then were blocked by one person at the end of the corridor, in the dark that screamed and shot at them, and as they stopped the two of us in the tunnel began flanking shots.
Our weapons were one handed, totally imprecise and none of them fell, but they decided to leg it despite being 10. Each of them had more hp than us a rifle.
I think not being ajusted of the total darkness of the location helped a lot we had to sleep in, their camps was outside.
That was a flunk, we were the trashmob before the real instance, but that was fun for everyone involved, and way more interesting than having a "mass fear" call.

[inespie]

Of course, we need to find a balance.
Too much call, and you could as well sit down and call it a pen and paper game.
More probably we have people with vastly overpowered character that could do a ton more of stuff than new player, without much effort due to their. Like a mmorpg.
No call, and it's a reenactment, or a sport.
And well, as Avaris said, a lot of people usually go in a larp to do stuff they can't do in life.

I've seen people with the ability not give a honest try, and just proclaim camouflage/deguise while clearly in sight because the rule say they can, and I know there is few people that can really turn invisible at will.

I've also seen people being good fencer playing a non combatant for a change, but still at the second they get a weapon in their hand they dont look like a non combatant at all.

[Avaris]

Of course, we need to find a balance.
Too much call, and you could as well sit down and call it a pen and paper game.
More probably we have people with vastly overpowered character that could do a ton more of stuff than new player, without much effort due to their. Like a mmorpg.
No call, and it's a reenactment, or a sport.
And well, as Avaris said, a lot of people usually go in a larp to do stuff they can't do in life.

I've seen people with the ability not give a honest try, and just proclaim camouflage/deguise while clearly in sight because the rule say they can, and I know there is few people that can really turn invisible at will.

I've also seen people being good fencer playing a non combatant for a change, but still at the second they get a weapon in their hand they dont look like a non combatant at all.

Yeah, definitely a balancing act.

I think my instinctual dislike of the lock picking example up thread is that it is changing the value of a skill you have bought as a character based on OOC characteristics, i.e. ‘can you pick a lock OOC? If yes, this is a good skill to have. If not, it’s not.’. I’d be completely fine with both ‘anyone can attempt to hardskill open this lock’ and ‘you can buy a skill to allow you to open this lock’. It’s when they crossover, ‘you can buy a skill that allows you to use hardskill to attempt to open this lock’ that feels odd to me!

[inespie]

Yeah, definitely a balancing act.

I think my instinctual dislike of the lock picking example up thread is that it is changing the value of a skill you have bought as a character based on OOC characteristics, i.e. ‘can you pick a lock OOC? If yes, this is a good skill to have. If not, it’s not.’. I’d be completely fine with both ‘anyone can attempt to hardskill open this lock’ and ‘you can buy a skill to allow you to open this lock’. It’s when they crossover, ‘you can buy a skill that allows you to use hardskill to attempt to open this lock’ that feels odd to me!

To be honest, larp fencing, sprint, hold and wear stuff, and most of all socialising and metagaming are hard skill anyway, for every fantasy game.

For the crossover thing, I would even say all games have most skill/ability behind a hard skill or worse, the ability to purchase stuff. Get archery, but can't aim for crap or don't have a bow ? well duh.

[Avaris]

To be honest, larp fencing, sprint, hold and wear stuff, and most of all socialising and metagaming are hard skill anyway, for every fantasy game.

For the crossover thing, I would even say all games have most skill/ability behind a hard skill or worse, the ability to purchase stuff. Get archery, but can't aim for crap or don't have a bow ? well duh.

Yeah, having hard skill stuff is fine! It’s specifically the combining with soft skill I have a problem with (though there are points where it is good to minimise hard skill requirements if you can, such as through providing alternatives to heavy armour for people who can’t wear/afford proper metal stuff).

It’s like, you wouldn’t say ‘you can only sprint if you have this skill’. Generally as well, HOW you hit someone with a weapon shouldn’t matter as much as the fact that you hit them; I need some hardskill to get a hit in, but once I do the effect depends on softskill, and shouldn’t be gated by where I hit someone. My rules preference is for ‘anyone can use and swing a weapon and do a small amount of damage when hitting someone. People who spend skill points on being a better fighter can do extra stuff when they hit someone.’ So the hardskill element isn’t gated behind a softskill (anyone can pick up a sword and use it based on OOC ability) and the softskill element isn’t gated behind the hardskill (you don’t need to be especially good with a sword to use your character’s sword skills).

But again, it’s a balancing act! There is no one true way to larp, and any game designer needs to think carefully about the way their rules affect the way the game works. One of my favourite systems, ReGenesis (now ended), had a five second rule, which means you can only use an ability (like calling damage) once every five seconds. That’s a long time! But it meant people were encouraged to be extremely dramatic with their fighting, making it a fun thing to watch (which was part of what the fighting was for in that game). Wouldn’t suit every game, worked there, where the idea was the players were essentially gods.

[inespie]

As a totaly objective person with no possession or bias for any piece of armor, as you can see in my profile pict, I would argue that wearing proper armor is already a sidegrade rather than a upgrade. What the armor is doing (reducing/negating damage/giving HP), it's often already countered by the weight, fatigue and disconfort of the armor. Often it cost you point or a specialised class to have the right to wear it. If there is a way to do the same thing (barbarian stuff that increase hp and resistance) with similar soft skill price but no real life disconfort, well it will encourage player to not bother and just go for the minimal effort.

I had a larp where class, ability and race had a xp cost, and the race bonus stat or ability was not even worth the xp cost to buy them separatly. that and makeup for something else than elve would have been a hassle, so it was a 93% human larp. For a D&D themed game.
What a surprise.
(they had a database for all characters, so the info was precise)


I feel like players need encouragement to not go for the minimal effort.
Even those that don't feel like they need to win or be optimised, if they feel they will get punished by the game for putting effort, they will not do it.

I feel that armor, race and fancy costumes need to gain something that is comparable to the trouble they are to wear, or people will not be inclined to endure them.

[AdmiralCheez]

Maybe the people in the game I go to are an outlier, but our rules were developed to be able to be played on a minimal budget, and and yet nearly everyone goes all out on their costume and armor. For me and a bunch if others I know, looking good is half the fun of it, even if it means a little extra effort or reducing mobility a bit.

For example, by the rules, armor could be as simple or cheap as you want, the only exception being it has to be more than just duct tape. I got away with wrapping fake craft-store leather around my wrists and calling them bracers in my first game, and it functions just the same, which is to say it gives you only a slight benefit in-game. Armor definitely isn't game-changing, but it comes in handy once in a while. Despite that low requirement, I've seen a lot of people in full metal plate armor, taking the long time to put it on before a battle and dealing with the sound and weight, when they could just as easily wear something lighter like cosplay foam and get the same benefit. Why do they do it? They just want to.

It reminds me of that quote by Julio Scoundrél - "It doesn't matter if you win or lose, as long as you look really cool doing it," and I feel like that's one of the most applicable quotes I've ever heard.

[Cygnia]

One of my favorite LARPs, well, I didn't know was a LARP when I signed up for it. It was billed as Deadlands Noir, set during the funeral of Huey Long in New Orleans, so I snapped it up.

It was only when I arrived and saw folks in costume that I realized it wasn't tabletop.

Fortunately, I'm very good at improv. Took on the role of Harrowed Carrie Nation (because I knew who she was) and proceeded to be VERY perturbed at all the booze around. Ended up being the MVP of the LARP and won a 20th Anniversary Classic Deadlands Box Set.

[inespie]

Maybe the people in the game I go to are an outlier, but our rules were developed to be able to be played on a minimal budget, and and yet nearly everyone goes all out on their costume and armor. For me and a bunch if others I know, looking good is half the fun of it, even if it means a little extra effort or reducing mobility a bit.

For example, by the rules, armor could be as simple or cheap as you want, the only exception being it has to be more than just duct tape. I got away with wrapping fake craft-store leather around my wrists and calling them bracers in my first game, and it functions just the same, which is to say it gives you only a slight benefit in-game. Armor definitely isn't game-changing, but it comes in handy once in a while. Despite that low requirement, I've seen a lot of people in full metal plate armor, taking the long time to put it on before a battle and dealing with the sound and weight, when they could just as easily wear something lighter like cosplay foam and get the same benefit. Why do they do it? They just want to.

It reminds me of that quote by Julio Scoundrél - "It doesn't matter if you win or lose, as long as you look really cool doing it," and I feel like that's one of the most applicable quotes I've ever heard.

Ho, I understand that. my first "armor" was a motorbike jacket twice my size that I've resewn. Of course, that wasn't a real or total armor and never treated as such.

I saw that Julio Scoundrel mentality way more in Larp that were pve oriented. Pve game have way less competition, it's not a arms race.

In pvp I thing that putting the effort, then getting smashed by powergamers that found the most practical way to abuse the rules, make people either play the same way or at least try to optimise themselves as well to resist those guy, or go for a non threatening faction that forgo pvp/the faction war to play only RP.
We had one with barbarians with the good perks and buff that had way more hp (and of course, numbers) than the tincans... it was a hot summer... the tincans were pretty pissed. Often the armor have repair time or ressource to be spend, so it need to have a serious advantage to stay competitive.

I prefer having warring faction as players are often more interesting to RP with than NPC that have a predetermined role, but that competitive mindset and the effect it has on the whole game infuriate me. As we will never get rid of them, I would prefer rules that reward effort for the sake of the RP, even if that lead to a slight gatekeeping.

[inespie]

One of my favorite LARPs, well, I didn't know was a LARP when I signed up for it. It was billed as Deadlands Noir, set during the funeral of Huey Long in New Orleans, so I snapped it up.

It was only when I arrived and saw folks in costume that I realized it wasn't tabletop.

Fortunately, I'm very good at improv. Took on the role of Harrowed Carrie Nation (because I knew who she was) and proceeded to be VERY perturbed at all the booze around. Ended up being the MVP of the LARP and won a 20th Anniversary Classic Deadlands Box Set.

Nice ! A lot of interaction, or RP done by player and NPC seem to me rather mechanic, like someone making a speech prepared earlier, no matter the event.
Having something created on the fly and rping organically on a current element of the game is neat, especialy on such quality that you get MVP.
Never seen a mvp award on a larp, thought.

[AdmiralCheez]

I prefer having warring faction as players are often more interesting to RP with than NPC that have a predetermined role, but that competitive mindset and the effect it has on the whole game infuriate me. As we will never get rid of them, I would prefer rules that reward effort for the sake of the RP, even if that lead to a slight gatekeeping.

For a competitive game, or a combat sport where different grades of armor matter more, sure, I'd say give better benefits to better armor. Like having leather armor would have certain stats/abilities, while chainmail has different ones, and plate mail differs even more. But in those kinds of games, the primary focus is more on the combat aspect rather than RP or anything.

For a more casual game, like the one I'm in, I greatly hesitate to put any kind of monetary gatekeeping in the way of someone's fun. If it means some people stretch the definition of what could be considered "armor" to use the armor skill, so be it, but I don't want to scare away a new person because they think they need to invest hundreds of dollars in actual medieval armor before they can play the paladin-type character they wanted to.

It really depends on the game and what it wants to focus on from a design point, like whether it wants to be a realistic combat simulation, or more of a theater-style fight. Though, I suppose that no matter how in-depth or casual your rule book is, there will always be someone trying to stretch the rules to their benefit.

[inespie]

For a more casual game, like the one I'm in, I greatly hesitate to put any kind of monetary gatekeeping in the way of someone's fun. If it means some people stretch the definition of what could be considered "armor" to use the armor skill, so be it, but I don't want to scare away a new person because they think they need to invest hundreds of dollars in actual medieval armor before they can play the paladin-type character they wanted to.

Not for me. If they don't have something such as that, that's not proper armor, sorry.

Joke aside, I would ask for pict before and be pragmatic. Want to do a paladin but don't have anything close to look like it ? Rather than do a ugly, or dangerous version of something costly or complicated to make, make a simpler kit for a similar character. if you are just too light to be a knight, be a squire or a apprentice. Big on the purge evil stuff ?
ranger and grey warden do it too with less bling. Want the religious side ? Well a witch hunter is a angrier and armorless paladin, if you want to smite stuff. A militant monk of a religious order would be the same thing than a paladin but in a robe. All of these archetype fit a paladin-type character, and do not need as much stuff.

I wont be calling for realism, the word have no sense on larp, but coherence. If we say that armor represent is this or that, it has to be or at least look like this or that. Same for race or flavour of faction. If it's the viking expy faction, someone coming with a tricorn and a saber should be refused or coherence will take a hit.

For a competitive game, or a combat sport where different grades of armor matter more, sure, I'd say give better benefits to better armor. Like having leather armor would have certain stats/abilities, while chainmail has different ones, and plate mail differs even more. But in those kinds of games, the primary focus is more on the combat aspect rather than RP or anything.

It really depends on the game and what it wants to focus on from a design point, like whether it wants to be a realistic combat simulation, or more of a theater-style fight. Though, I suppose that no matter how in-depth or casual your rule book is, there will always be someone trying to stretch the rules to their benefit.

Don't most of fantasy games fall under this ? As long as there is more than one faction... well, there is competition.

I feel there is less problem, even with less rules on wargame/combat only oriented game, because people know they are there for that. and often they have decent armor because big blows are not gonna be simulated. But in truth you can't min max or cheat your way of the rules if there is next to no rules and people will be really bashing your head.

Its more the mix of people wanting to win and optimising themselve using sloppy rules, and people not theorycrafting their build/gameplay to death together that cause the bull**** to happen.
There, proper design of rules for both type is needed.

Small larp with theather/artistic fencing with predetermined result before the fight don't have this problem, of course.

[AdmiralCheez]

Joke aside, I would ask for pict before and be pragmatic. Want to do a paladin but don't have anything close to look like it ? Rather than do a ugly, or dangerous version of something costly or complicated to make, make a simpler kit for a similar character. if you are just too light to be a knight, be a squire or a apprentice. Big on the purge evil stuff ?
ranger and grey warden do it too with less bling. Want the religious side ? Well a witch hunter is a angrier and armorless paladin, if you want to smite stuff. A militant monk of a religious order would be the same thing than a paladin but in a robe. All of these archetype fit a paladin-type character, and do not need as much stuff.

I wont be calling for realism, the word have no sense on larp, but coherence. If we say that armor represent is this or that, it has to be or at least look like this or that. Same for race or flavour of faction. If it's the viking expy faction, someone coming with a tricorn and a saber should be refused or coherence will take a hit.

All good suggestions! Coherency really is the key. If people can tell what you're supposed to be without asking, then you've succeeded. That's basically all you need for the game I play in, and if you want to change it up, like alter the racial requirements, you need a good reason to, GM approval, and to spend points that you earn by helping the game (making props, doing NPC stuff, things like that). So you can't just walk in day one and insist that you get to play an elf without pointed ears, for example.

Don't most of fantasy games fall under this ? As long as there is more than one faction... well, there is competition.

I feel there is less problem, even with less rules on wargame/combat only oriented game, because people know they are there for that. and often they have decent armor because big blows are not gonna be simulated. But in truth you can't min max or cheat your way of the rules if there is next to no rules and people will be really bashing your head.

Its more the mix of people wanting to win and optimising themselve using sloppy rules, and people not theorycrafting their build/gameplay to death together that cause the bull**** to happen.
There, proper design of rules for both type is needed.

Small larp with theather/artistic fencing with predetermined result before the fight don't have this problem, of course.

The game I go to is "lightest touch" for combat, so you're just swinging hard enough for them to register that they've been hit. I called it "theater-style" fighting because people there like to ham it up and get overly-dramatic in their fight style, so it often looks like a big flashy production even though it isn't. We're just goofy, friendly people in general, so there aren't really competing factions that fight each other, and in the few cases they did, the fights were more in-game arguments that came to blows and quickly ended when the voice of peace prevailed. The rules are so simple and low-scale that even if you did squeeze every last bit of power from obscure rule loopholes, you're talking maybe an extra point of damage in a game where a max-level damage spell does 8.

I will admit that this is the only game I've ever gone to, so my experience of what it's like in other games is limited to other people's stories. From what it sounds like, we're kind of an outlier on what a typical game looks like.

[Cygnia]

If/when cons ever come back and you see that Kettle of Fish is running a LARP -- sign up for them!

[inespie]

Well, I think that it's just the usual cultural shock between euro and us larpers.

It seem that you are a lot less carefree, easygoing on your larp, on rule as well as costume, while the ones I did, while varied if form and size, where way more... serious ? maybe not the right word. Let say passionnate. Well anyway, it's like wargaming and cosplay, it's expected if you go to a event, you will prepare for the event by painting mini and crafting your kit.
Most of the good event I've participated to have inscription a year prior, so you have no excuse to not be prepared. The newbie learn fast and get stuff, get in a group that lend them a kit, or join the NPC.

I mean, when I think "well, you could do a light kit cheap but well made" I think of those.




When I see leather vambraces on a non archer, I die a bit inside. it's just a bit of leather you have in the non dominant hand so you don't get whiped by the cord when you shoot, there is no sense to have one otherwise. It's like giving spurs to someone who doesn't ride. Sadly for many it just feel medievalish so they put it everywhere, like belts.

And when I think "well, those seem to be quite gatekeeping elitist", it's them I'm thinking of them https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Mxy...gHEdxRJYC/view, not people forbiding sport shoes or boffers in their larp.

By the way, why boffer ? is that a cost saving measure, or something to have more foam, more safety than smaller latex/foam weapon ? is there is really a big number of them or is that is just a exageration ?

[Kickaha]

By the way, why boffer ? is that a cost saving measure, or something to have more foam, more safety than smaller latex/foam weapon ? is there is really a big number of them or is that is just a exageration ?

(caveat that this is just an as-I-understand-it, and as an Alaskan larper I'm disconnected from a lot of the stuff going on in the lower 48; if I'm wrong about anything, I welcome correction.)
First, there are a few different kinds of boffers. Just like over in Britain (dunno how it went in the rest of Europe), back when larping was getting started in the US, the cheapest and easiest way to get a weapon was PVC pipe, wrapped in foam and duct tape. The difference is that there was never a cultural shift to latex weapons, and there aren't very many latex weapon manufacturers in the US, so latex weapons are a lot more expensive.

Plus, the largest larps and battlegames - such as Amtgard, Dagorhir, and Nero (at least until recently, no idea what's going on with them now) - all used boffers, so most other people did too. So it's a combination of accessibility and a bit of disconnect in combat practices; namely, there are fewer light-touch larps, so people think 'wow, these latex weapons really hurt', not realizing that they're actually just swinging harded than the weapons are designed for, because boffers tend to have a lot more padding. Latex is more common in a lot of Accelerant larps and smaller-scale groups, though, just not the big ones you usually hear about.

But boffers aren't all pvc pipe and camping pads, though even those, with the addition of some fabric, look okay-ish if not realistic. A lot of boffers are also made out of stuff like fiberglass rods and closed-cell foam - essentially the same materials as latex weapons - like the boffers made by Ben Becker and the folks at B3 imagination studio.

[tyckspoon]

By the way, why boffer ? is that a cost saving measure, or something to have more foam, more safety than smaller latex/foam weapon ? is there is really a big number of them or is that is just a exageration ?

The game I personally play (well, played, we basically did nothing this year because COVID) is pretty far on the combat-sport end of the spectrum; we use full speed swings and have 'you didn't hit me solidly enough, that didn't count' rules. We actually bar latex/foam LARP/cosplay styled weapons because we don't trust them to be padded enough or durable enough for our game.

Conversely a game that is more focused on the theater, presentation, and immersion might ban boffer designs because.. well, let's be honest, most of them don't look like weapons. They're totems of weapons, but they're very evidently not real weapons and they're not making a lot of effort to look like them (You can do some stuff with them that helps, especially if you can relax your build rules to account for light-touch combat, but it's a personal project - nobody sells pretty boffers pre-made that I'm aware of.) If your combat rules don't need the extra safety factor of all that extra padding or the durability to get slapped full force against flesh, armor, and other weapons all day long and not snap in half.. may as well just use the latex LARP weapons that look nice and can be purchased from many sources.

[AdmiralCheez]

Boffers are the standard for our NPCs and new players, precisely because they are cheap and easy to make, while latex weapons tend to be pricey. They're great for new players because you don't need to spend a lot of money to play, and if you decide you don't like larping, you can donate it to the game and not lose a lot of money. They're great for NPCs because again, latex weapons are expensive, and need to be treated with a small amount of care in order to stay combat safe. Boffer weapons you can make a bunch of for cheap, and you can use them for years with heavy use with no maintenance. When they start to fall apart, you can strip them down, recycle the good parts of the foam into smaller weapons, and reuse the PVC core. Plus, you can make custom-shaped weapons and combat safe props using boffer techniques that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.

Latex weapons tend to be favored by players once they've gotten a few events down and are sure they're going to stick with it. They look better, are easier to use, and they aren't as bulky to carry and wield. I have four latex weapons, personally, and I vastly prefer them to boffer.

[inespie]

Hum, I understand. It's true that more control is required for the larp "touch", and I would not like to go for that if I had a more safe weapon before permiting more intensity.
Checking my archive, I have a game where latex and boffer spear were used, but it was to make stabbing possible, and to get "unlimited intensity, stab and head authorised", people had to armor up. helmets for everyone !


Thinking of boffer, if those are kinda the norm for larger larp how come nobody yet did some... well, professional boffer production ?
I use that for Hema, for the newbies that don't have stuff and when it's too hot to wear the protections for steel weapon.
And... well, it's indestructible, the textile protecting the foam from wear and tear, and made with a foam that is actually made for that. We bonk ourselves weekly (well, we did...) and we still have destroyed zero after two years of weekly use.



About the latex weapon, their softness varies a lot by the manufacturer, with different issue.
Foam too stiff is hard and cushion nothing, foam too soft make you feel the carbon core and hurt too. And clearly you can't swing widly with neither of them. and they tend to cost.

[inespie]

(caveat that this is just an as-I-understand-it, and as an Alaskan larper I'm disconnected from a lot of the stuff going on in the lower 48; if I'm wrong about anything, I welcome correction.)
First, there are a few different kinds of boffers. Just like over in Britain (dunno how it went in the rest of Europe), back when larping was getting started in the US, the cheapest and easiest way to get a weapon was PVC pipe, wrapped in foam and duct tape. The difference is that there was never a cultural shift to latex weapons, and there aren't very many latex weapon manufacturers in the US, so latex weapons are a lot more expensive.

Plus, the largest larps and battlegames - such as Amtgard, Dagorhir, and Nero (at least until recently, no idea what's going on with them now) - all used boffers, so most other people did too. So it's a combination of accessibility and a bit of disconnect in combat practices; namely, there are fewer light-touch larps, so people think 'wow, these latex weapons really hurt', not realizing that they're actually just swinging harded than the weapons are designed for, because boffers tend to have a lot more padding. Latex is more common in a lot of Accelerant larps and smaller-scale groups, though, just not the big ones you usually hear about.

What is a Accelerant... nevermind there is a tv trope about it. This simple fact baffle me. and a wiki. Wow. We don't have something as... federated as that. Most organiser are very jealous of their independance.
It's true that we have no Amtgard, Dagorhir, Nero or SCA.
It's Larp, artistic fencing, reenactment, hema or behurt.

But boffers aren't all pvc pipe and camping pads, though even those, with the addition of some fabric, look okay-ish if not realistic. A lot of boffers are also made out of stuff like fiberglass rods and closed-cell foam - essentially the same materials as latex weapons - like the boffers made by Ben Becker and the folks at B3 imagination studio.

Do you have some pict of the fancy boffers ?


Also, do you think that as the boffer are a bit immersion breaking by being combat noodles, make people have a way more carefree approach to their kit and costume ? In truth, I don't know if I only see "carefree" US larp picture because they circulate more easily on the web, or if they really are the majority.

[tyckspoon]

Thinking of boffer, if those are kinda the norm for larger larp how come nobody yet did some... well, professional boffer production ?
I use that for Hema, for the newbies that don't have stuff and when it's too hot to wear the protections for steel weapon.
And... well, it's indestructible, the textile protecting the foam from wear and tear, and made with a foam that is actually made for that. We bonk ourselves weekly (well, we did...) and we still have destroyed zero after two years of weekly use.

..while I would need to get ahold of one directly and probably (regrettably) tear it down to say for sure if it would meet our rules requirements, looking at pictures of stuff marked as HEMA foam trainers shows swords that look quite a lot like higher-quality boffers in Amtgard, the kind of thing our better known vendors assemble. I would hazard a guess that these are likely a bit heavier than our state of the art, since Amtgard at least has no minimum-weight requirement and we aren't super interested in trying to accurately replicate historical weights, but there's a pretty good chance you could take one of these and use it one of our events with nobody blinking.

As for production/selling.. I think a lot of it has to do with a pretty strong DIY culture, at least in Amtgard, and the fact that your basic boffer is really not hard to source materials for or assemble. They're also pretty obnoxious to ship once you want to do anything other than your standard one-handed sword! So while every region will probably have people who have a cottage industry of selling equipment to other players (especially using fancier materials - finding a good reliable, reasonably priced, source of quality foam is surprisingly hard, especially since you normally have to go direct to manufacturer and they're often not interested in selling less than a palletload at a time..) they often are regional vendors at best. Setting up a national storefront and shipping cross country isn't worth the expense or the time for many of them, who are hobbyists at best.

(Admittedly I hadn't thought of looking at HEMA gear, since I didn't know they had foam trainers/equipment for unarmored practice. Probably should have, I've thought about getting the the leg/knee protectors they use before as safety gear/to wear under costume when fighting.)

[Kickaha]

What is a Accelerant... nevermind there is a tv trope about it. This simple fact baffle me. and a wiki. Wow. We don't have something as... federated as that. Most organiser are very jealous of their independance.

I haven't read the wiki, so I'm not sure if it's clear, but it should be noted that there isn't really an overarching organization for Accelerant; it's just a set of rules, which a lot of starting groups find a lot more convenient than having to design rules on their own. But there's a pretty big Accelerant larp community in the northeast, with a lot of different games in different genres, so you do get a lot of cross-pollination in game staff and ideas.

Do you have some pict of the fancy boffers ?

Also, do you think that as the boffer are a bit immersion breaking by being combat noodles, make people have a way more carefree approach to their kit and costume ? In truth, I don't know if I only see "carefree" US larp picture because they circulate more easily on the web, or if they really are the majority.

As tyckspoon said, the swords you posted look pretty much like the fancier boffers B3 and others make.

While there are an increasing number of games that really want and incentivize good costuming (a lot of Accelerant games, for example), NERO and Amtgard and Alliance and the like generally don't do so as much; I think the reason lower costume standards are more common in the US is due to the fact that larping here started out as a thing you do at college, meaning without much money, so you see a lot of t-shirts and the like. Then, when existing groups try to make hard rules raising costume standards, people get mad. That's been getting better, though; and any time somebody gets a really good kit together and shows up at an event somewhere, it tends to elevate the costuming of the rest of the players over time as they realize how cool it looks.