Dread necromancer

[Mrark]

Hey everyone. I’m starting a new campaign, I read the Dread necromancer and I decided I want to give it a try. Can anyone give me some hints about it? I want to go 20 levels into it, so I’m looking for feats, spells, playstyle, roleplaying. Kinda everything ahaahah

Any advice will be welcome. Thanks everyone

[NigelWalmsley]

The discussion of the Dread Necromancer in this guide hits the high notes. Basically: take Tomb Tainted Soul and Arcane Disciple as feats, you can tank once you get DR, you get a giant pile of undead that are arbitrarily better than other people's undead. In particular, you need to work out with your DM what kinds of shenanigans he will allow WRT getting your hands on corpses. The different between 80 HD of human skeletons and 80 HD of hydra zombies is intense.

[Falontani]

1. It it's usually stated that 8 dread necromancer is the most dread necromancer levels that should be taken, so my question is why do you want all twenty? Lichdom?
2. When you get your familiar it is suggested that you get either a stitched flesh familiar, or the ghostly visage.
3. Mother Cyst feat is a good feat.
4. Necropolitan or tomb tainted soul for infinite healing.
5. Mm4: necrosis carnex; leof: baneguard, direguard, and flameskull; bovd: Bone creature, corpse creature; mm: zombie lions, fire giant skeletons; lm: Spellstitched, slaymate.
6. Fell Energy Spell will help in more situations than you'd expect. Song of the dead will allow you to change any spell you cast into a necromancy spell. This is mainly beneficial for spell focus, but can be useful when spellstitching.
7. Minionmancy:
Dms tend to view a horde of minions in a less than good light, unless you are the only player. I suggest keeping only a small number of minions with you, or make it easy on the dm by having them be simple to do in combat. 4 flameskulls that must attack the same target is much easier than a minotaur zombie, a troll skeleton, and a dozen skeleton warriors with longbows. And better than all that is a single level 8 bone creature fire giant.
Don't get attached to a minion that seems more powerful than you should possess, if one of your creatures trivialize fights talk to the dm outside of the game, see if it's ok to keep it, or if it would help if you sent the creature to do a task away from the party, such as protecting the base of operations.
8. Be friendly with your dm. You will not have fun as a minionmancer if your dm is constantly trying to nerf you or your creatures. Be open about your character's power, because if the dm starts corpse removal or paladin services.... Well it doesn't look good for you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't listen to the jump-out-at-8th crowd. Animate Dead's default calculation is double your caster level in undead HD, DN 8 changes that to 4+Cha bonus per class level. So if you prestige out of DN at 8th level, your max HD total for Animate Dead won't keep increasing as you level up, it can only go up by increasing your Cha score or taking more DN levels.

Try to get a Ring of (Greater) Desecration at some point.

The Ghostly Visage familiar is best. Always have it possess you so you're immune to all mind-affecting effects. It can manifest over your face to use its paralyzing gaze on your enemies during combat. Enemies need to avert their gaze from you, suffering a 50% miss chance on all attacks, to avoid the gaze attack. As standard with all gaze attacks, it can take a standard action to force a target within range to save vs the gaze attack immediately, even if it's not looking or if it's already made the save that round.

Get a Circlet of Rapid Casting and the Raiment of the Four set in MIC.

[The Viscount]

People very commonly cite 8 as the breakpoint, but doing so halts your progression for the purpose of control pool, since the class feature links your cap to your class level instead of caster level.

Ghostly visage is the most popular familiar recommendation I see (and for good reason, immunity to mind affecting is very powerful), but I'll put in a good word for imp or quasit as well. They have a good amount of utility, plus the ability to be flanking buddy in combat.

Falontani has already mentioned some excellent undead, and note that especially later ones like in MMIV can be made with the spells on your list, so are worth checking out.

You also might look into divine feats. Your rebuke undead is a valuable resource, and you're unlikely to be using all your uses every day. Having something else to divert them to is nice.

If you can spare the ability scores in your build, I'll second Arcane Disciple. The DN spell list is very small and very focused, so anything that expands that list is good.

For your advanced learning, I'll put a special word in for Door of Decay. It's a spell you can learn by special exception, and it's extremely hard to replicate otherwise for a DN. Awaken undead is of course a significant addition, though its specific benefits will depend on which undead it's used on.

For roleplay, I'll throw out the idea that just because Necromancy is commonly associated with grim darkness, that doesn't mean your character can't have fun with it.

[NigelWalmsley]

You should get out at 8th. It's true that your control pool stops growing from caster levels, but it's also as big as a normal character gets at 20th level. That's well past the point where you've hit diminishing returns on your zombie minions and would be better of investing in Prestige Domains or other PrC options to expand your versatility, rather than doubling down on mindless beatsticks.

The ghostly visage is the best familiar choice for combat, but the quasit lets you use Commune, which is a powerful utility effect. Which one is best depends on how much you value combat power versus utility.

Oh, also: you get Planar Binding (and Lesser Planar Binding, though for some reason not Greater Planar Binding). You'll need to invest in some supplemental spells to use it safely, but once you hit 10th level, you can start supplementing your undead minions with outsiders. Pick ones with SLAs like Stinking Cloud, Fear, or Cloudkill, which your undead minions can ignore.

Desecrate is a must-have for an aspiring Necromancer, but it doesn't have to come from the Ring. For one thing, you can cash out the ring once you get Planar Binding online, because Mezzoloths get Desecrate at will (and also Cloudkill for combat). EDIT: Lesser Planar Binding, actually. The Canoloth gets Descrate at will as well, though it's overall less impressive than the Mezzo. You can also technically get it by using Anyspell (from the Spell Domain) to plunder it off the Death Master list, but that's pretty cheesy, and the interaction between Anyspell and Arcane Disciple isn't clear (that said, if your DM okays it: take the Spell Domain for Anyspell).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Obligatory mention of my favourite two-level dip after DN 8: Horned Harbinger. Not suited for a pure casting role, but it's a big boost to your caster level for animate dead, and you bypass the material component once a day.

Incidentally, I'd ask your DM whether you can use CL instead of class level for the DN's control pool. I'm 99% sure the writer didn't think the two numbers were or could ever be different and just picked the wrong c-word. The ability doesn't even say it's replacing caster level: it only says: "(rather than the 4 HD per level normally granted by the spell)" as if it's normally based on class level. The control undead limit increase from the same ability does let you use caster level, for crying out loud.

[Blackhawk748]

Well I'm gonna ask the question noone else has, are you actually wanting to make an undead army?

[The Viscount]

Worth noting that Planar Binding calls for use of a magic circle spell. One reading of the rules means that you can't actually use the Planar Binding line normally, since you don't have the magic circle spells on your list. Another reading is that the creature is summoned but instantly freed, which means you'll likely have to slay it and reanimate it if you want anything out of it.

HoH is rather poorly written, even on the metric of 3.5 books.

[Rater202]

If you can talk your GM into letting prestige classes that advance base class casting advance your class levels for the purposes of Animate Dead, pale master might be a good option. Animate dead as a spell-like ability once a day cuts down on the costs of building your army though I'm not sure how useful he other abilities would be for your build.

Corpse Crafter does nothing for you unless you prestige out before level 8. It is redundant and, as they were developed independently and are not worded in a way that would let them stack. However, some of the feats that builds on it might be worth your investment depending on your build.

I, for one, am quite fond of a commoner dip at level one so you can take the Chicken Infested Flaw and then use a haversack to get a crapload of chickens. Chickens use the same stats as ravens, which have 1/8 of a hit die. Slaughter and debone the chickens, and you can store up a bunch of chicken skeletons.

A commoner 1/DN 18 with 18 charisma can reanimate 1152 chicken skeletons with a single casting of Plague of undead. With Destruction Retribution, each easily killed skeleton becomes a suicide bomber and those 1d6 bursts of negative energy damage every time one destroyed add up.

An exploit I came up with then I was younger that I haven't really seen in any guides for the DN so I don't know-how "optimal" it is: In Complete Arcane, there are two feats in the storytelling and roleplaying section of the book(not the feet section) in a sidebar on a page talking about apprentices between masters and apprentices. One is wizard only, but one can be used by any arcane caster.

Precious apprentice: You were tutored by another caster and had a good relationship with them, so you were able to learn a bit more than the average apprentice. At first level, you get a single second-level spell known from a school of magic you have available to you and a single second-level spell slot. You can use that spell slot to cast your chosen spell, and when you get second-level spells naturally you get to keep it as a bonus spell splot in addition to what you'd normally get. (You also get plus two on spellcraft checks.)

My exploit was that I'd use it to get Spectral Hand at an early level and be able to charnel touch from rage several levels early. And an extra spell slot can't possibly hurt, can it?

Level 20? By rules as written, a Dread Necromancer does not gain the Lich Template. Your type changes to Undead, and you gain a Phylactery... But that Phylactery has no mechanical benefit. Your other class features are meant to imitate you slowly turning into a Lich, and while you get some stuff Lich's don't you are, strictly speaking, inferior to the real deal. A Wizards Staff member confirmed, many years ago, that this was the intended reading.

If you want to be a Lich for free at level 20, I'd suggest the Death Master from Dragon Compendium, which explicitly gives you the template for free with no LA even if you don't meet the prerequisites... Though, Death Master is a prepared Caster with a Spell Book, not a spontaneous caster with a set list.

Given the choice between Tomb Tainted Soul and Necropolitian, I;d go with Tomb Tainted. Being undead would rise your hit dice, but it also turns some DN levels into dead levels and, if you're absolutely set on the class's RAW inferior Lich, it locks you out of that. Also some GMs will insist on docking you the XP cost of the ritual to become one even if you do it in the background instead of gameplay and even though that's not actually part of the template itself. Finally, you can retrain a feat. You can't retrain a template.

Unless you're going for az zerg rush or suicide bombers strategy, you're going to want a handful of powerful zombies or skeletons rather than a bunch of weakling skeletons. This won't always be optimal, but at level 20 4 Great wyrm Red Dragon Zombies are gonna be more useful than 160 level one human warrior skeletons. Less bookkeeping, too.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm a big fan of using Dread Necromancer for fear-based debuff builds. The classic is Dread Necromancer, 4-5 levels of Dread Witch, then back into Dread Necromancer for the rest of the build. Powerful debuffs that ignore immunity on top of an army of the dead for back-up and utility is a great combination.

Whether you want to use fear or a horde of undead or both, a great choice for your first Advanced Learning is Kelgore's grave mist, a lovely little AOE. The damage is small, but unavoidable, making it fantastic for using either Fell Frighten or Fell Animate on a whole lot of enemies without allowing saving throws. Better yet, your own undead minions are completely immune to it, since it only affects living creatures.

On that note, an important choice for any Dread Necromancer is whether they want to take the feat Tomb Tainted Soul (which lets them use their at-will Charnel Touch class feature for unlimited self-healing right at level one), or tough it out and wait until at least level 3, at which point you can become a Necropolitan to become undead with LA 0 (rendering Tomb Tainted Soul redundant). Being a Necropolitan is better once you get past level 5 or so, but your DM might not allow it, and it leaves you comparatively squishy at low level (the time when being squishy hurts the most).

[Biggus]

Level 20? By rules as written, a Dread Necromancer does not gain the Lich Template. Your type changes to Undead, and you gain a Phylactery... But that Phylactery has no mechanical benefit. Your other class features are meant to imitate you slowly turning into a Lich, and while you get some stuff Lich's don't you are, strictly speaking, inferior to the real deal. A Wizards Staff member confirmed, many years ago, that this was the intended reading.

Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich.

OK, I give up, what possible way is there to read this other than "you become a lich"?

[NigelWalmsley]

I strongly recommend against combining Dread Necromancer with anything that reduces your casting progression. None of them really make you better at their shticks than simply being higher level would be, and if you're going to PrC, you ought to be getting breadth, not depth.

As far as the Lich thing goes, while you can contort RAW into claiming the word "lich" is just fluff or something, there's no DM in the world who's going to tell you that you don't get the template after sticking 20 levels into Dread Necromancer.

[Rater202]

OK, I give up, what possible way is there to read this other than "you become a lich"?

The part where it doesn't say "applies the Lich Template"

If it only said "When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich," then the argument exists that it means to apply the template, but it doesn't so that's clearly fluff.

It goes on to say "Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery."

These are the mechanics of the Lich transformation Class feature. Your type changes to undead, with no extra special abilities, and you get a magic item called a Phylactery... But not a Lich's Phylactery ability, so the item does absolutely nothing.

And, again, there is a post from a Wizards Staff Member on the now-defunct Wizards forums that spells out that "you become Undead but that's it" is the intended reading of the class feature.

I know, I'm disappointed too. This was my favorite class until I realized that. The DN class is basically a 20 level, Lich version of the Dragon Disciple. "Slowly gain a worse version of a template over the course of several levels." The touch attacks are better and you get some goodies that a Lich doesn't get, but your DR is worse, you don't get stat boosts, and you're missing out on the whole reason to become a Lich.

[The Viscount]

OK, I give up, what possible way is there to read this other than "you become a lich"?

Some people claim that because that is followed by "your type changes to undead" and not "you gain the lich template" that it doesn't truly make you a lich. These people churlishly ignore the obvious intent and mention of a phylactery numerous times, and choose to believe that the writers gave you a functionless phylactery rather than incorrectly worded a class feature. By strictest RAW this may be true, but it's like saying Virginia isn't a state because it's a Commonwealth. It is a correct reading of the words, but I question the material difference it makes in actual play. They even restrict the benefit to humanoid creatures, same as the template, which makes it clear what they were aiming for.

The writing on Dread Necromancer is singularly strange in that it doesn't use established terminology like normal classes. It's as if the writers didn't have experience writing classes up or didn't have the style guide. In the advancement section, there's 2 suggested feats at the end, a beginning paragraph of pure fluff, and the off-handed mention that you have access to all Corrupt spells. This isn't normal. Charnel touch doesn't have a listed action, making it unclear if it can be weaved into iterative attacks. Negative energy burst is not a 5-foot burst, but instead "harms living creatures within 5 feet of her", leading to the popular idea that you include yourself in the burst. The familiar entry includes the line "A dread necromancer’s familiar can use its ability to deliver touch spells such as its master’s charnel touch, scabrous touch, or enervating touch attack" despite these class features not being spells. Enervating touch's wording about "up to half your class level but no more than two negative levels with a single touch" just isn't how abilities like this are typically written. The fear aura is the standout feature. It's worded as if it's a free action burst rather than a passive aura, and makes enemies shaken with no duration.

The point is that given how weirdly they wrote the rest of the class features, I think it more likely that they goofed on the specific wording than they intentionally only changed your type rather than give you the template they built the class around.

[Blackhawk748]

OK, I give up, what possible way is there to read this other than "you become a lich"?

It doesn't reference the Lich template like every other class that gives you the template does.

Some people claim that because that is followed by "your type changes to undead" and not "you gain the lich template" that it doesn't truly make you a lich. These people churlishly ignore the obvious intent and mention of a phylactery numerous times, and choose to believe that the writers gave you a functionless phylactery rather than incorrectly worded a class feature. By strictest RAW this may be true, but it's like saying Virginia isn't a state because it's a Commonwealth. It is a correct reading of the words, but I question the material difference it makes in actual play. They even restrict the benefit to humanoid creatures, same as the template, which makes it clear what they were aiming for.

The writing on Dread Necromancer is singularly strange in that it doesn't use established terminology like normal classes. It's as if the writers didn't have experience writing classes up or didn't have the style guide. In the advancement section, there's 2 suggested feats at the end, a beginning paragraph of pure fluff, and the off-handed mention that you have access to all Corrupt spells. This isn't normal. Charnel touch doesn't have a listed action, making it unclear if it can be weaved into iterative attacks. Negative energy burst is not a 5-foot burst, but instead "harms living creatures within 5 feet of her", leading to the popular idea that you include yourself in the burst. The familiar entry includes the line "A dread necromancer’s familiar can use its ability to deliver touch spells such as its master’s charnel touch, scabrous touch, or enervating touch attack" despite these class features not being spells. Enervating touch's wording about "up to half your class level but no more than two negative levels with a single touch" just isn't how abilities like this are typically written. The fear aura is the standout feature. It's worded as if it's a free action burst rather than a passive aura, and makes enemies shaken with no duration.

The point is that given how weirdly they wrote the rest of the class features, I think it more likely that they goofed on the specific wording than they intentionally only changed your type rather than give you the template they built the class around.

That still doesn't give you the Lich template by RAW. It doesn't matter that the Phylactery does nothing, that's what it is.

Now, do most DMs just let you get the Lich template? Yes, because it's less dumb, but that isn't what the feature gets you. That feature just makes you undead.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It doesn't reference the Lich template like every other class that gives you the template does.

The D&D term "lich" is a game term, and it refers to the template. There's no need to specify that it is a template or that you get it when you become it. For D&D purposes, "becoming a lich" is the same as "getting the lich template". As for why it's not worded in the usual terms, see the Viscount's post.

[Rater202]

Some people claim that because that is followed by "your type changes to undead" and not "you gain the lich template" that it doesn't truly make you a lich. These people churlishly ignore the obvious intent and mention of a phylactery numerous times, and choose to believe that the writers gave you a functionless phylactery rather than incorrectly worded a class feature. By strictest RAW this may be true, but it's like saying Virginia isn't a state because it's a Commonwealth. It is a correct reading of the words, but I question the material difference it makes in actual play. They even restrict the benefit to humanoid creatures, same as the template, which makes it clear what they were aiming for.

The writing on Dread Necromancer is singularly strange in that it doesn't use established terminology like normal classes. It's as if the writers didn't have experience writing classes up or didn't have the style guide. In the advancement section, there's 2 suggested feats at the end, a beginning paragraph of pure fluff, and the off-handed mention that you have access to all Corrupt spells. This isn't normal. Charnel touch doesn't have a listed action, making it unclear if it can be weaved into iterative attacks. Negative energy burst is not a 5-foot burst, but instead "harms living creatures within 5 feet of her", leading to the popular idea that you include yourself in the burst. The familiar entry includes the line "A dread necromancer’s familiar can use its ability to deliver touch spells such as its master’s charnel touch, scabrous touch, or enervating touch attack" despite these class features not being spells. Enervating touch's wording about "up to half your class level but no more than two negative levels with a single touch" just isn't how abilities like this are typically written. The fear aura is the standout feature. It's worded as if it's a free action burst rather than a passive aura, and makes enemies shaken with no duration.

The point is that given how weirdly they wrote the rest of the class features, I think it more likely that they goofed on the specific wording than they intentionally only changed your type rather than give you the template they built the class around.

There was a Dread Necromancer guide ont he ld Wzards forums. I think this is where the idea of prestging out at level 8 came from, to be honest, but I don't remember what the actual title was.

On one page, the discussion goes to "the class doesn't actually give you the Lich template" and one poster linked to a discussion with a Wizard Staff member who flat out says that the intent of the Lich transformation class feature is that it just turns you undead and does not actually give you the template and that your being a Lich is just fluff. This might still exist on the web archive... but I don't have the time or the knowledge to look for it.

Now, granted: Double checking the Lich Template, the "rejuvenate from Phylactery" is a power of the Phylactery, not a power of the Template, so techncially even though the intent is that the Phylactery does nothing, you still have that one specific power by RAW, I was wrong on that, but looking at other class features it kind of becomes obvious that the intent is not that you ain't he template.

The Intent seems to be that you slowly become an "Approximation" of a Necro-Minionmancer with the Lich Template.

First off: The Charnel, Scabrous, and Enervating Touches are clearly analogous to the Lich's Touch Attack and substitutes for the Lich's paralyzing Touch, respectively. Charnel Touch at level 20 deals the exact same damage as a Lich's Touch attack, but doesn't paralyze, while you can optionally give someone a Disease or negative levels in addition to inflicting damage.

(As an aside, something I somehow constantly overlooked before: Charnel Touch overwrites the normal "negative energy heals undead" rules. Rather than one to one conversion, it heals one point of damage plus one per four class levels to undead creatures. This makes Tomb Tainted Soul the superior option for self-healing: TTS causes the negative energy to heal you "as though you were undead" rather than explicitly making you count as an undead creature for the purposes of negative energy effects. In fact, it explicitly states that you have no other properties of an undead creature. So you'd be healing yourself the full 1d8+1/4 Clas level.)

The Class Feature that gives a Dread Necromancer DR is called "Lich Body" and is fluffed as the DN slowly becoming an Undead Creature, which is presumably also the fluff for the negative energy resistance.

The Class gives you a fear aura that is comparable to, though strategically rather different from, that of the template.

So, it seems that the intent is that yu become an Approximation of a Lich. You get a variation for he Touch attack that lets you inflict the same damage, though the debuff aspect is changed and becomes more limited(a certain number of times/amounts per day instead fo every time you use the touch,) a Fear Aura, the undead type, DR bludgeoning and magic, and a phylactery. You also get undead control and negative energy powers that aren't gained by other classes or templates(I don't think that any other arcane caster gets turn or rebuke by default.)

But your DR is weaker, you don't get the stat boost or turn resistance, or the natural armor bonus,

So, in-universe only a dedicated expert is going to be able to tell the difference between a Dread Necromancer 20 and a Sorcerer or Cleric with the Lich Template, you're still a "Lich" in-universe, but not the same kind of Lich.

Even in-universe, A Dry Lich, a Lich, and a Dracolich are not the same template, so "Lich" doesn't refer specifically to the Lich Template.

[The Viscount]

On one page, the discussion goes to "the class doesn't actually give you the Lich template" and one poster linked to a discussion with a Wizard Staff member who flat out says that the intent of the Lich transformation class feature is that it just turns you undead and does not actually give you the template and that your being a Lich is just fluff. This might still exist on the web archive... but I don't have the time or the knowledge to look for it.

I'm sure that they did, but does that actually carry any weight? RAW-wise it certainly doesn't. Intent-wise, the community generally agrees that the infamous Ivory Tower gaming article about intentionally bad options for Timmys was an attempt to cover for poor design. I don't see the difference here.

I completely agree with you that, by RAW, you don't get the lich template. I just question whether that really matters.

Bonus wording bit that I forgot to mention above, negative energy resistance.: "a dread necromancer gains a +4 bonus on saving throws made to resist negative energy effects, including energy drain, some ability drain, and inflict spells." What ability drain? Some!
Presumably they're trying to say that it should apply do ones that come from undead, but ability drain from undead isn't considered a negative energy effect. If that's what they're going for, does a vampire's Blood Drain still count? Even if it this is how things work, a lot of these abilities don't offer saves. Perhaps they meant to protect from spells that drain your abilities? Some of those are necromancy, but that still doesn't make them negative energy effects. Basically you have to have a long conversation with your DM, or ask every time this comes up.

[Blackhawk748]

The D&D term "lich" is a game term, and it refers to the template. There's no need to specify that it is a template or that you get it when you become it. For D&D purposes, "becoming a lich" is the same as "getting the lich template". As for why it's not worded in the usual terms, see the Viscount's post.

No, it's the name of a creature and when you gain the template it references the page number, which Dread Necro doesn't. It also tells us what you get, becoming undead and changing your Hit Dice. By RAW, you don't get the template.

We all consider it RAI, and I have no issue making the change myself, because getting the template with no LA is a great capstone, but by RAW that doesn't happen.

Bonus wording bit that I forgot to mention above, negative energy resistance.: "a dread necromancer gains a +4 bonus on saving throws made to resist negative energy effects, including energy drain, some ability drain, and inflict spells." What ability drain? Some!
Presumably they're trying to say that it should apply do ones that come from undead, but ability drain from undead isn't considered a negative energy effect. If that's what they're going for, does a vampire's Blood Drain still count? Even if it this is how things work, a lot of these abilities don't offer saves. Perhaps they meant to protect from spells that drain your abilities? Some of those are necromancy, but that still doesn't make them negative energy effects. Basically you have to have a long conversation with your DM, or ask every time this comes up.

Oh, ya, that idiocy. I would assume (dangerous I know) that it would cover things like the Shadow's and Allip's touch attacks, but there's probably an argument for why it wouldn't

[Rater202]

Yeah.

You're considered a Lich in-universe, but it's more that your class features add up to make you a Lich varient rather than actually making you the standard Lich.

[Remuko]

this is the same silly line of thought that would have people saying if it did say you get the template, youd get the abilities of lich from the template on top of the abilities you got from the class (like dragon disciple. it doesnt give you the template because that would be stacking features you were supposed to be getting slowly over the class.

[NigelWalmsley]

Can we move the Lich debate to a different thread? It is highly unlikely to be useful to answering the question OP has asked.

[Blackhawk748]

this is the same silly line of thought that would have people saying if it did say you get the template, youd get the abilities of lich from the template on top of the abilities you got from the class (like dragon disciple. it doesnt give you the template because that would be stacking features you were supposed to be getting slowly over the class.

I mean.... you would? The abilities are different and only the DR would be redundant and it's not like you can't give things redundant DR.

Can we move the Lich debate to a different thread? It is highly unlikely to be useful to answering the question OP has asked.

Pretty sure the debate is over, we're just waiting on the OP to respond with a slightly more specified list of what they want, cuz there's a lot of ways to play a Dread Necro.

[Vaern]

and you get a magic item called a Phylactery... But not a Lich's Phylactery ability, so the item does absolutely nothing.

The lich doesn't have a phylactery ability. The phylactery is an item that is described separately from the creature itself. Nowhere in the lich's description does it say that it regenerates after being destroyed; that is an effect listed in the description of the item itself. It's the only item referred to simply as "phylactery." In fact, the only mention of a phylactery in the description itself is the statement that the template can be added to any humanoid creature "provided it can create the required phylactery." The dread necromancer class features leading up to the transformation also make it abundantly clear that the phylactery being created is associated with the transformation into a lich.

Even if the dread necromancer doesn't become exactly the lich listed in the monster manual and doesn't gain the benefits associated with having the template like the paralyzing touch and cold/electricity immunities, it's still something called a lich which a generic phylactery would function normally for in much the same way that Hank's energy bow functions for a character named Hank, even if it isn't the Hank that it's intended to be used by. Note that a phylactery allows a lich to reappear in 1d10 days -- not a creature with the "lich" template.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Even in-universe, A Dry Lich, a Lich, and a Dracolich are not the same template, so "Lich" doesn't refer specifically to the Lich Template.

Um... yes it does. The other templates are not called "lich", because they are, y'know, different templates. "Lich" refers to the template called "lich", of which there is exactly one.

No, it's the name of a creature and when you gain the template it references the page number, which Dread Necro doesn't. It also tells us what you get, becoming undead and changing your Hit Dice. By RAW, you don't get the template.

That it is the name of a creature (it's a template, but whatever) rather suggests it is a specific game term, just like the name of a class, feat, spell, or ability. And the absence of a page number hardly means that "lich" no longer refers to "lich". It's not presented as it should be, but again, see the Viscount's rather long list of presentation errors.

When given the choice between "a class riddled with errors forgets to provide a page number" and ""lich" does not refer to "lich" unless a page number is given", go with the first option.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm seriously disappointed in everyone who's derailed this thread. The OP came here looking for advice on playing a DN, and out come the arguers trying to say what the class does or doesn't do. Whether or not he'll gain the full Lich template at DN 20 is 100% up to his DM whose decision will likely depend more on game balance and proper player rewards than any armchair RAW argument that occurs on the internet. Just drop it already.

[Biggus]

The part where it doesn't say "applies the Lich Template"

"Lich" is an acquired template

The definition of lich, in the primary source, is that it's a template. So by RAW, you do gain the lich template.

A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery."

These are the mechanics of the Lich transformation Class feature. Your type changes to undead, with no extra special abilities, and you get a magic item called a Phylactery... But not a Lich's Phylactery ability, so the item does absolutely nothing.

Why give you a phylactery if it doesn't do anything? How many other class features can you name which do literally nothing by intent? The very few I've heard of are clearly errors.

And, again, there is a post from a Wizards Staff Member on the now-defunct Wizards forums that spells out that "you become Undead but that's it" is the intended reading of the class feature.

That might have been that particular staff member's understanding of how it should be read, it might not have been anyone else's. A message board post is even less official than the FAQ, which has enough errors in it that I've lost count of the number of times I've read someone say "FAQ is not RAW".

Even in-universe, A Dry Lich, a Lich, and a Dracolich are not the same template, so "Lich" doesn't refer specifically to the Lich Template.

But it doesn't say you become a Dry Lich or a Dracolich, those are different things. It says you become a Lich. The word "lich" on its own refers only to that specific template, in rules terms. So unless you can show me a piece of rules text which says that "lich" is used as a general term for all lich templates, this means nothing.

No, it's the name of a creature and when you gain the template it references the page number, which Dread Necro doesn't.

Can you show me a piece of rules text that says that when you gain a template, it must reference the page number, or use the words "you gain the template"?

EDIT: I've started a new thread here continuing directly from this post to avoid derailing this thread any further.