whats a good feat from heroics other than power attack and martial study?

[newguydude1]

i want to get heroics because power attack makes my monsters really strong but once i get bite of the weretiger i dont need it because that spell gives power attack too. so i was wondering if i could use heroics for something else. if not i might grab another spell. dunno.

no martial study because my dm cant be bothered to learn maneuvers and such.

best i got is...
improved initiative
weapon focus: claw
which isnt that good. which is why i might just wait until level 12 and skip heroics in favor of another spell.

and thats it. cleave is worthless at the level im talking about (12+) cause majority of my damage is from multiple attacks with natural weapons.

for frame of reference think cornugon with persistent wraithstrike and persistent bite of the weretiger or werebear. he has 2 claws + 1 bite + 1 tail + 4 claws from girallons blessing + 1 rend + 2 claws from bite of the weretiger + 1 bite from bite of the were tiger
for a grand total of 8 claw attacks, 2 bite attacks, 1 tail attack, 1 rend attack which makes it 12 natural attacks. all with +12 or +16 strength and probably with the full +15 damage from power attack.

[daremetoidareyo]

Exotic weapon proficiency tail scythe?

[tiercel]

This seems to be one of the best existing threads on the subject; while it does list a number of Tome of Battle options, it also talks about non-ToB feats which you may find situationally useful (e.g. Blindfight may not be worth having all the time, but it’s handy when you do need it; conversely, Spectral Skirmisher is cool for being invisible, but unless that’s your go-to strategy, and you can make it stick vs opponents who don’t see right through it, may not be a permanent feat choice)

[Gruftzwerg]

You already figured out that Martial Study would be a good choice. So why not take it to the next step?
Martial Stance and you don't need to waste a feat on Martial Study. Just get a Crown of the White Raven or equivalent and you can get a nice stance with Heroics.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's not much. Even less if you're not targetting a character that uses equipment. The list of fighter bonus feats has a lot of good stuff in it but most of it has at least one or two feats as prerequisites.

The only thing that looks like an obvious choice without concern for equipment or prerequisites other than those mentioned in the OP is powerful charge from Minis Handbook. Couple extra d6s on a charge.

[Max Caysey]

This seems to be one of the best existing threads on the subject; while it does list a number of Tome of Battle options, it also talks about non-ToB feats which you may find situationally useful (e.g. Blindfight may not be worth having all the time, but it’s handy when you do need it; conversely, Spectral Skirmisher is cool for being invisible, but unless that’s your go-to strategy, and you can make it stick vs opponents who don’t see right through it, may not be a permanent feat choice)

A question regarding the link... I looked through it, and found this:

Spoiler: Martial study uses

Show

I did a quick check of what I felt the most generally useful maneuvers were up to initiator level 6th (if you're not a martial initiator, you'd need to be 14 HD or higher to benefit from anything more). Tier 1 abilities can be granted with a single casting of heroics. A tier 2 ability would require a second casting, assuming the first casting was used to select an appropriate prerequisite. I paid special attention to abilities that are likely to be generally useful if you use War Weaver or Reach Spell + Chain Spell to share the buff across the whole party and all its cohorts, pets, minions, summoned creatures, etc.

Interesting ideas:

• You can remove negative levels with two castings of heroics long before you can get access to restoration (select Martial Study: Wall of Blades and Martial Study: Iron Heart Surge). Saves you 100 gp too.
• If you can share the spell around, two castings gets you Martial Study: Burning Blade plus Martial Stance: Holocaust Cloak. If shared onto a large group of summoned monsters that are able to make multiple attacks (such as claw/claw/bite) and take at least two hits to kill, you're potentially looking at 20 - 30 additional fire damage per critter.

Martial Study (choices up to initiator level 6th)
Tier 1
- Burning Blade (Desert Wind 1) (+1d6+6 fire on all attacks)
- Death Mark (Desert Wind 3) (normal damage + AoE 6d6 fire)
- Vanguard Strike (Devoted Spirit 1) (allies gain +4 attack vs foe)
- Action Before Thought (Diamond Mind 2) (Concentration vs Reflex save)
- Mind over Body (Diamond Mind 3) (Concentration vs Fortitude save)
- Wall of Blades (Iron Heart 2) (contested attack roll vs attack)
- Counter Charge (Setting Sun 1) (contested ability check vs charge attack)
- Cloak of Deception (Shadow Hand 2) (swift invisibility)
- Shadow Jaunt (Shadow Hand 2) (teleport 50 ft)
- Shadow Garrotte (Shadow Hand 3) (ranged touch 5d6 + flat-footed)
- Leading the Attack (White Raven 1) (allies gain +4 attack vs foe)

Tier 2

- Fan the Flames (Desert Wind 3) (ranged touch 6d6 fire)
- Holocaust Cloak (Desert Wind 3) (5 fire reactive damage)
- Zephyr Dance (Desert Wind 3) (+4 AC vs attack)
- Iron Guard's Glare*** (Devoted Spirit 1) (foes within reach take -4 vs allies)
- Martial Spirit*** (Devoted Spirit 1) (heal 2 with each hit)
- Revitalizing Strike (Devoted Spirit 3) (normal damage + heal 3d6+6)
- Thicket of Blades (Devoted Spirit 3) (hit shifting foe)
- Pearl of Black Doubt (Diamond Mind 3) (+2 AC each time foe misses)
- Absolute Steel Stance*** (Iron Heart 3) (+10 speed, +2 AC when moving)
- Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart 3) (remove ongoing condition)
- Punishing Stance*** (Iron Heart 1) (+1d6 melee damage, -2 AC)
- Giant Killing Style*** (Setting Sun 3) (+2 attack, +4 damage vs big foes)
- Assassin's Stance*** (Shadow Hand 3) (+2d6 sneak attack)
- Dance of the Spider*** (Shadow Hand 3) (spider climb)
- Child of Shadow*** (Shadow Hand 2) (concealment if you move)
- Hunter's Sense*** (Tiger Claw 2) (gain scent)
- Bolstering Voice*** (White Raven 1) (allies gain +2 Will saves, +4 vs fear)
- Battle Leader's Charge (White Raven 2) (charge damage +10)
- Leading the Charge*** (White Raven 1) (allies gain +6 charge damage)
- White Raven Tactics (White Raven 3) (ally takes another turn)
- Tactics of the Wolf*** (White Raven 3) (allies gain +6 flank damage)

***Stance

So, I have a level 4 character, 1 Martial Rogue/ 3 Fighter whom I want to give Martial Study through the casting of Heroics... I have some questions regarding how this might work:
1) Why would I need a second casting of Heroics for me to gain access to Martial Spirit (Stance)? There seem to be no prerequisite that would require a second casting?
2) If I cast Heroics and use it to give Martial Study, on my level 4 character what initiator level would he count as, as in what level maneuvers would he gain access to through he use of Heroics?
3) Would I be correct in asserting that he would be able to gain access to any level 2 maneuvers, including Martial Spirit?
4) And if so, how long would it last - one round, one attack, one encounter or 10 min/ lvl?

Cheers!

[Aracor]

So, I have a level 4 character, 1 Martial Rogue/ 3 Fighter whom I want to give Martial Study through the casting of Heroics... I have some questions regarding how this might work:
1) Why would I need a second casting of Heroics for me to gain access to Martial Spirit (Stance)? There seem to be no prerequisite that would require a second casting?

Because the Martial Spirit feat has a requirement of you knowing one martial maneuver.

2) If I cast Heroics and use it to give Martial Study, on my level 4 character what initiator level would he count as, as in what level maneuvers would he gain access to through he use of Heroics?

You can learn any maneuver that you meet the prerequisites for, and your initiator level would be considered 2. Which means you could access any level 1 maneuver that doesn't have prerequisites.

3) Would I be correct in asserting that he would be able to gain access to any level 2 maneuvers, including Martial Spirit?

No, because his initiator level would need to be 3 to access level 2 maneuvers.

4) And if so, how long would it last - one round, one attack, one encounter or 10 min/ lvl?

A stances lasts until you turn it off or it gets turned off (arguably when the spell ends). And a maneuver can be used once per encounter or out of combat once every five minutes, per the description of the martial strike feat.

[Max Caysey]

Because the Martial Spirit feat has a requirement of you knowing one martial maneuver.

You can learn any maneuver that you meet the prerequisites for, and your initiator level would be considered 2. Which means you could access any level 1 maneuver that doesn't have prerequisites.

No, because his initiator level would need to be 3 to access level 2 maneuvers.

A stances lasts until you turn it off or it gets turned off (arguably when the spell ends). And a maneuver can be used once per encounter or out of combat once every five minutes, per the description of the martial strike feat.

Thank you for your great responce...

When trying to look up the prerequisites for Martial Spirit, I can't find any... could you perhaps reference the place where one might find them?

Cheers!

[Aracor]

Sorry, that's a typo. It should be the Martial Stance feat. Martial Spirit is the actual stance itself.

[Darg]

Sorry, that's a typo. It should be the Martial Stance feat. Martial Spirit is the actual stance itself.

This. The Martial Stance feat requires knowing one maneuver of the discipline you wish to get the stance from.

Despite what others say, heroics can't stack with itself. So if you cast it 5 times, only the most recent takes effect. As feats with requirements lose their benefit when you no longer have the prerequisites, even if you cast for a feat chain you wouldn't be able to benefit from the ending feat because you no longer possess the feats from earlier castings.

Relevant rule:

Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

[sreservoir]

Despite what others say, heroics can't stack with itself. So if you cast it 5 times, only the most recent takes effect. As feats with requirements lose their benefit when you no longer have the prerequisites, even if you cast for a feat chain you wouldn't be able to benefit from the ending feat because you no longer possess the feats from earlier castings.

Relevant rule:

This is a misreading caused by poor SRD editing. The example removed implies a much more limited restriction:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail. In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

You can't actually, say, override a more harmful curse by casting bestow curse on yourself to give yourself -6 Cha. That would be silly. Successive polymorph effects can make earlier ones irrelevant because the effect makes them ... irrelevant, by effect. It's not a general rule that applies independently of effect semantics. You can cast heroics to get multiple different feats just fine.

[daremetoidareyo]

This is a misreading caused by poor SRD editing. The example removed implies a much more limited restriction:



You can't actually, say, override a more harmful curse by casting bestow curse on yourself to give yourself -6 Cha. That would be silly. Successive polymorph effects can make earlier ones irrelevant because the effect makes them ... irrelevant, by effect. It's not a general rule that applies independently of effect semantics. You can cast heroics to get multiple different feats just fine.

I dunno. I really want heroics to stack, but darg found a pretty resounding rule quote that I find it difficult to argue against Rules as written.

[sreservoir]

I dunno. I really want heroics to stack, but darg found a pretty resounding rule quote that I find it difficult to argue against Rules as written.

As I said, it's misedited from the PHB quote I cited above. The reading implied by the SRD version lets you override effects like bestow curse, geas, mark of justice, blindness/deafness(!) &c. by casting it with a different effect. This is clearly absurd.

[Melcar]

This. The Martial Stance feat requires knowing one maneuver of the discipline you wish to get the stance from.

Despite what others say, heroics can't stack with itself. So if you cast it 5 times, only the most recent takes effect. As feats with requirements lose their benefit when you no longer have the prerequisites, even if you cast for a feat chain you wouldn't be able to benefit from the ending feat because you no longer possess the feats from earlier castings.

Relevant rule:

So, casting multiple Energy Immunity will only yield the effects of the last casting? ... I think not!

[Aracor]

Here is the complete message on stacking from the Player's Handbook, page 171-172.

Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. For example, two bless spells don’t give twice the benefit of one bless. Both bless spells, however, continue to act simultaneously, and if one ends first, the other one continues to operate for the remainder of its duration. Likewise, two haste spells do not make the creature doubly fast.

More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). For example, the enhancement bonus to Strength from a bull’s strength spell and the enhancement bonus to Strength from a divine power spell don’t stack. You use whichever bonus gives you the better Strength score. In the same way, a belt of giant Strength gives you an enhancement bonus to Strength, which does not stack with the bonus you get from a bull’s strength spell.

Different Bonus Names: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. For example, bless provides a +1 morale bonus on saves against fear effects, and protection from evil provides a +2 resistance bonus on saves against spells cast by evil creatures. A character under the influence of spells gets a +1 bonus against all fear effects, a +2 bonus against spells cast by evil beings, and a +3 bonus against fear spells cast by evil creatures.

A bonus that isn’t named (just a “+2 bonus” rather than a “+2 resistance bonus”) stacks with any bonus.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. For example, if a character takes a –4 penalty to Strength from a ray of enfeeblement spell and then receives a second ray of enfeeblement spell that applies a –6 penalty, he or she takes only the –6 penalty. Both spells are still operating on the character, however. If one ray of enfeeblement spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other spell remains in effect, assuming that its duration has not yet expired.

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail. In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. For example, if a wizard is using a shapechange spell to take the shape of an eagle, a polymorph spell could change her into a goldfish. The shapechange spell is not negated, however, and since the polymorph spell has no effect on the recipient’s special abilities, the wizard could use the shapechange effect to take any form the spell allows whenever she desires. If a creature using a shapechange effect becomes petrified by a flesh to stone spell, however, it turns into a mindless, inert statue, and the shapechange effect cannot help it escape.

Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant. For example, a hold person effect renders any other form of mental control irrelevant because it robs the subject of the ability to move. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. For example, a person who has received a geas/quest spell can also be subjected to a charm person spell. The charmed person remains committed to fulfilling the quest, however, and resists any order that interferes with that goal. In this case, the geas/quest spell doesn’t negate charm person, but it does reduce its effectiveness, just as nonmagical devotion to a quest would. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

I'm pretty sure "same effect with differing results" applies here. The same effect (Heroics spell) provides differing results (different feats). None of the previous effects are removed, except in the specific case of heroics, the intermediary effects are NOT irrelevant when compared to the final result. So they aren't actually removed or dispelled, and thus still apply.

[daremetoidareyo]

Here is the complete message on stacking from the Player's Handbook, page 171-172.



I'm pretty sure "same effect with differing results" applies here. The same effect (Heroics spell) provides differing results (different feats). None of the previous effects are removed, except in the specific case of heroics, the intermediary effects are NOT irrelevant when compared to the final result. So they aren't actually removed or dispelled, and thus still apply.

In which case, you can move up the feat chain to access the best feat in a series.

[Darg]

Well, temporary hit points don't say they dont stack and they aren't a bonus. I guess I could stack Aid spells for a large amount of temporary HP huh? I guess you could listen to the faq, but not everyone does.

[Melcar]

Well, temporary hit points don't say they dont stack and they aren't a bonus. I guess I could stack Aid spells for a large amount of temporary HP huh? I guess you could listen to the faq, but not everyone does.

Obviously not... because that is the same bonus, gained from the same spell. So thats like casting multiple bless... However you can gain total elemental immunity from casting elemental immunity 5 times... just like you can gain multiple feats from casting multiple Heroics!

[Max Caysey]

Sorry, that's a typo. It should be the Martial Stance feat. Martial Spirit is the actual stance itself.

This. The Martial Stance feat requires knowing one maneuver of the discipline you wish to get the stance from.

Despite what others say, heroics can't stack with itself. So if you cast it 5 times, only the most recent takes effect. As feats with requirements lose their benefit when you no longer have the prerequisites, even if you cast for a feat chain you wouldn't be able to benefit from the ending feat because you no longer possess the feats from earlier castings.

Relevant rule:

Ok, so on page 5 in ToB a stance in designated as a maneuver - albeit a special one - so why can't you choose a stance when taking the feat Martial Study? I mean, Martial Study says: "choose any maneuver, and since a stance is a maneuver, it should be perfectly within the rules to chose a stance with Martial Study... so why can't I do this?

Cheers!

[Gruftzwerg]

Well, temporary hit points don't say they dont stack and they aren't a bonus. I guess I could stack Aid spells for a large amount of temporary HP huh? I guess you could listen to the faq, but not everyone does.

3.5 is permission based ruling.

We have rules for what you may stack and how they stack.

We have rules for stacking damage

We have rules for multiplying

And we have rules how modifiers stack (declared as bonuses and penalties to a DICE-ROLL in 3.5)

So.. no, you may not stack temporary hit points, because we lack the permission for it..^^

Have a look at the Basics for reference.
______________________

Everything boils down to the point that Heroics won't stack with itself because you have no rule base to allow its effect to stack. Because same spell with different effect, and the previous instance(s) become suppressed. Which brings us to the rule that you need the fulfill the requirements (for feats) not only to obtain them, but also to use em.
So you would get the last feat (from a maximum of 2 chained feats) from Heroics, but it would be useless since you can't use it anymore due to the lack of prerequisites...^^

Again, best way to solve this for Martial Study is by buying a Crown of the White Raven or equivalent for the required Maneuver.

edit: adjusted a sentence to prevent misinterpretation.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ok, so on page 5 in ToB a stance in designated as a maneuver - albeit a special one - so why can't you choose a stance when taking the feat Martial Study? I mean, Martial Study says: "choose any maneuver, and since a stance is a maneuver, it should be perfectly within the rules to chose a stance with Martial Study... so why can't I do this?

Cheers!

Stances count as Maneuver only for the purpose of Stance/Maneuver requirements (when picking more stances/maneuvers) and for nothing else. Reread the part that states this.

[sreservoir]

Well, temporary hit points don't say they dont stack and they aren't a bonus. I guess I could stack Aid spells for a large amount of temporary HP huh? I guess you could listen to the faq, but not everyone does.

That may fall under "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths", which is a totally different heading—but also, like, sure? The temp hp from aid is basically on par with casting CLW after combat, at a spell level higher, and it isn't backed by spontaneous casting from a class feature of a rather popular Core class? I'm not sure it'd be problematic even if it did stack, which it admittedly probably does by RAW on account of not being a bonus per se. What point does this even make?

[Gruftzwerg]

That may fall under "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths", which is a totally different heading—but also, like, sure? The temp hp from aid is basically on par with casting CLW after combat, at a spell level higher, and it isn't backed by spontaneous casting from a class feature of a rather popular Core class? I'm not sure it'd be problematic even if it did stack, which it admittedly probably does by RAW on account of not being a bonus per se. What point does this even make?

the fact that it is not a bonus takes your permission to stack it as mentioned.

[newguydude1]

Obviously not... because that is the same bonus, gained from the same spell. So thats like casting multiple bless... However you can gain total elemental immunity from casting elemental immunity 5 times... just like you can gain multiple feats from casting multiple Heroics!

no you cant. the others are right. same spell different effects. only last one is active. first casting of energy immunity gives you fire immunity. second casting gives you lightning immunity. third casting gives you acid immunity. but its all the same spell, and they all give different effects, so only the last one is active. if it doesnt make sense to you then blame raw. raw doesnt make sense a lot of times.

likewise the bestow curse being negated by a worse bestow curse is how raw works. like drown healing.

[Aracor]

no you cant. the others are right. same spell different effects. only last one is active. first casting of energy immunity gives you fire immunity. second casting gives you lightning immunity. third casting gives you acid immunity. but its all the same spell, and they all give different effects, so only the last one is active. if it doesnt make sense to you then blame raw. raw doesnt make sense a lot of times.

likewise the bestow curse being negated by a worse bestow curse is how raw works. like drown healing.

Please cite that. The specific example it has in my quote is an example in which the previous effects ARE rendered irrelevant because of the specific series of spells in use. It even calls out and explicitly states that the other effects are not negated or dispelled, but that they are still active. The example is being polymorphed into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail, and it says the polymorph into a mouse and lion are still there, simply irrelevant. This means if someone dispels the snail form only, the creature would become a lion (since the other spells are still active). It's possible that a targeted dispelling could remove both the lion and mouse form, but the creature would still be a snail. Or dispel the snail and lion form, and still be stuck as a mouse.

So in YOUR example, Energy Immunity gives you first fire, then lightning, then acid immunity. Since acid immunity does NOT render fire and lightning immunity irrelevant, then those two effects are still active.

If I'm wrong, please demonstrate somewhere in the text that says casting Energy Immunity a second time turns off the first one.

[newguydude1]

If I'm wrong, please demonstrate somewhere in the text that says casting Energy Immunity a second time turns off the first one.

its in the quote you quoted. except without the house rule to get what you want.

The same spell

energy immunity is the same spell as energy immunity

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once.

energy immunity produces fire immunity, ice immunity, etc. if applied to the same recipient more than once.

For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail.

energy immunity might grant a creature fire immunity, then ice immunity, then lightning immunity

In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others.

last spell trumps the others. so the last energy immunity trumps the others.

None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

none of the earlier energy immunities are removed, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series last.

repeating for emphasis.

The same spell

and

their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

done and done. we went through every sentence and did exactly as the sentences told us to do.

---

but that they are still active.

no it says theyre not active.

None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

right here your adding a house rule. your trying to add the house rule that the same spell doesnt make the previous castings irrelevant in certain special circumstances and it does make previous castings irrelevant in certain special different circumstances.

there is no circumstance where the previous castings of the same spells become relevant or irrelevant. in all cases all previous castings become irrelvant. we went through step by step and did not find a single sentence that said under special circumstances previous castings dont become irrelvant.

[Gruftzwerg]

So in YOUR example, Energy Immunity gives you first fire, then lightning, then acid immunity. Since acid immunity does NOT render fire and lightning immunity irrelevant, then those two effects are still active.

If I'm wrong, please demonstrate somewhere in the text that says casting Energy Immunity a second time turns off the first one.

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail. In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

The very last sentence causes that all other instances of the "same effect with differing results" get suppressed while the last instance of the spell lasts.

This causes Energy Immunity to not stack with itself. Only the last instance is active while the others get suppressed and irrelevant unless you get dispelled.

And in chase of Bestow Curse it's the same, only the last effect is active, while the others are suppressed (but still there). They only become relevant when you try to get rid of the curses due to their permanent duration.

[JNAProductions]

If you're hit with Polymorph for 16 minutes, into a lion, then one minute in, hit with a seven minute Polymorph into a turtle, what happens after the turtle duration is up?

[Gruftzwerg]

If you're hit with Polymorph for 16 minutes, into a lion, then one minute in, hit with a seven minute Polymorph into a turtle, what happens after the turtle duration is up?

16-1-7= 8 minutes left for lion.

edit: to clarify
when the turtle poly ends, the lion poly becomes the last instance of the spell and thus becomes active / doesn't get suppressed anymore.

[Aracor]

There's a problem, though. You're completely ignoring something that it actually says!

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once.

That is flat-out permission for the same effect to apply to the recipient more than once.

When it says "in this case" - it's referring to an example of polymorph. Do you understand how being polymorphed multiple times makes a previous polymorph irrelevant? BECAUSE THEY'RE A NEW CREATURE! That does not mean that "this case" applies to EVERY case that involves two of the same spells cast upon the same creature.

You can't ignore the sentence I quoted, then replace one example with another and assume it's all the same. The effect of multiple polymorph spells are irrelevant specifically because the recipient can be in only one shape at any given time. You can't just replace polymorph with another example and assume it's all the same. Unless you can demonstrate there's something preventing a creature immune to lightning from being immune to fire at the same time? It's pretty easy to explain why a creature in the shape of a snail cannot be in the shape of a lion or a mouse.


There's no house rule. You're just assuming that an example that it even specifies is an example applies to everything.

none of the earlier energy immunities are removed, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series last.

This right here: There's a problem with your logic. You're specifically saying that none of the earlier immunities are removed. Why exactly (if they still exist) are they irrelevant when the final spell in the series is cast?

The example (that it specifies is an example, which means it's not all-encompassing) applies in the example's case because a recipient can only have one shape at a time.