OOTS #1218 - The Discussion Thread

[dancrilis]

Not quite right. The dose makes the poison.
sola dosis facit venenum

Beer is not a poison. (There is a post that suggest perhaps it being a toxin). But it is a food item (which with slight exaggeration can be called a food group) going back as far as ancient Egypt (which I think is where it was invented).

Earliest I have heard of would be Israel circa 13,000bc, perhaps kickstarting human civilisation via creating a need for agriculture.

[Peelee]

Also, "food item" is a fun word. Imean, salt is a food item (and is my go-to when people claim that honey is the only food that doesn't spoil).

[KorvinStarmast]

Earliest I have heard of would be Israel circa 13,000bc, perhaps kickstarting human civilisation via creating a need for agriculture.

That is great news, I had no idea it went that far back.

[Peelee]

That is great news, I had no idea it went that far back.

Given how easy alcohol is to make ("wait for food to go bad", to be a bit simplistic about it), it's honestly surprising that beer is not about the oldest thing we know of.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, "food item" is a fun word. Imean, salt is a food item (and is my go-to when people claim that honey is the only food that doesn't spoil).

Heh, I forget which comic made this into a common joke, back in the 80's (Maybe Denis Leary or Sam Kennison?)

The four basic food groups: Sugar, Salt, Alcohol, Caffeine.

Maybe it's been around longer than that, but that's the first general time period that I can recall hearing that gag.

wait for food to go bad

IIRC, slightly over ripe tomatoes taste better ... guessing the sugars are starting to form.

[Peelee]

Heh, I forget which comic made this into a common joke, back in the 80's (Maybe Denis Leary or Sam Kennison?)

The four basic food groups: Sugar, Salt, Alcohol, Caffeine.

Maybe it's been around longer than that, but that's the first general time period that I can recall hearing that gag.

The board filter didn't catch anything, so not Sam Kennison.

[Paleomancer]

Given how easy alcohol is to make ("wait for food to go bad", to be a bit simplistic about it), it's honestly surprising that beer is not about the oldest thing we know of.

Not all "food that goes bad" is actually safe to eat, though, especially grains (think ergot, various molds, etc.). Moreover, beermaking requires a substantial agricultural base to sustain it. While ancient societies like the Egyptians did have beer, said civilizations also had then-advanced agriculture. Without farmers able to produce an excess of grain, you get no beer (and a lot of spirits too).

Compare with wine, where all that is needed to discover it is to eat a fermented grape and realizing you like pink mammoth-goggles . It is comparatively simpler to smash the grapes and wait for the god of wine yeast to do their work. Ironically, for all that wine is considered more "sophisticated," beer is considerably more complicated to produce.

[Peelee]

Not all "food that goes bad" is actually safe to eat, though, especially grains (think ergot, various molds, etc.). Moreover, beermaking requires a substantial agricultural base to sustain it. While ancient societies like the Egyptians did have beer, said civilizations also had then-advanced agriculture. Without farmers able to produce an excess of grain, you get no beer (and a lot of spirits too).

Compare with wine, where all that is needed to discover it is to eat a fermented grape and realizing you like pink mammoth-goggles . It is comparatively simpler to smash the grapes and wait for the god of wine yeast to do their work. Ironically, for all that wine is considered more "sophisticated," beer is considerably more complicated to produce.

True. I learned how to make prison hooch once, and it's basically a wine (to be exceedingly loose with that term).

[Goblin_Priest]

Indeed, beer is drastically more complicated to make than wine (of all sorts, including mead).

While today we have access to specialized ingredients (varieties of barley specifically bred for brewing, malted by professional industrial maltsters, to specifications optimal for brewing, and carefully selected sterile yeast cultures), and access to the know-how to both know *what* to use (how to mix the grain ratios for example), and access to the know-how on how to use it (optimal times for each operations, optimal temperatures, optimal pH, optimal water profiles, as well as all kinds of handy tools relative to sanitation, and the convenient equipment to keep everything in their sweet spots (propane burners, pumps, valves, stainless kettles, insulated mash tuns)...

Yea, sure, with all that, making beer is not super hard. But even then, making great beer is hazardous, especially if you aren't following a tried recipe that you are yourself familiar with.

Go back with no knowledge of what the ideal temperature is (or even what your must's actual temperature is), how long you should do anything, relying on rotten foods as inoculates or just otherwise praying that natural contamination goes your way, knowing the proper levels of oxygenation, and somehow making a pressure resistant vessel to contain it or otherwise enjoying your nice (ew) flat beer...

If we go back to the first beers, they probably weren't very good at all. And they were probably heavily fruit-based.

Because wine, on the other hand, is super simple. THAT is just leaving fruit juice to spoil. And if you are lucky, they get spoiled by the right organisms. Sure, a lot of it may still end up disgusting, but to get decent results, you don't need a whole lot in terms of equipment, ingredients, or knowledge. And since you aren't boiling it, usually, the fruit skins are already full of yeast to do the work for you.

And grape wine is more common and widespread specifically because it is easiest, with good ratios relative to sugars, acids, tannins, and cost. As was said, despite grape wine being rebranded as something sophisticated, it's actually a poor man's drink, easy and cheap to produce. Just about any other fermented beverage is more difficult to pull off with decent results.

[arimareiji]

Not quite right. The dose makes the poison.
sola dosis facit venenum

Beer is not a poison. (There is a post that suggest perhaps it being a toxin). But it is a food item (which with slight exaggeration can be called a food group) going back as far as ancient Egypt (which I think is where it was invented).

I wonder how much of a non-serious argument one could make that water is a poison. Far too much of it without salt will do you in, through hyponatremia.

(Those in search of ratings by torturing people for money, please take note. https://www.theregister.com/2007/01/15/wii_death/)

[Ron Miel]

I understand that the first alcoholic drink ever discovered was mead, made from honey. Although I'm seeing conflicting information from different websites.

[Saint-Just]

Go back with no knowledge of what the ideal temperature is (or even what your must's actual temperature is), how long you should do anything, relying on rotten foods as inoculates or just otherwise praying that natural contamination goes your way, knowing the proper levels of oxygenation, and somehow making a pressure resistant vessel to contain it or otherwise enjoying your nice (ew) flat beer...

You know significantly more than me about beer-making, but I like to point out that AFAIK beer enjoyed by a common man outside of the cities (and from population ratios if you are a city inhabitant you are definitely not a common man even if you are a commoner or worse) was made in small batches supposed to be consumed in maybe a week after being made, no more. Smaller communities would have it only for festivals, larger may make it continuously but pressure-containing vessels were definitely too fancy.

[Goblin_Priest]

I understand that the first alcoholic drink ever discovered was mead, made from honey. Although I'm seeing conflicting information from different websites.

I've seen a lot of products being described as "X was the first alcoholic drink ever!". Just like I've seen a lot described as "X is the only food that never spoils!". I've not bothered to look too deeply into any of these claims.

The thing with honey is that it can "easily" spontaneously ferment, just like with juice, if extracted too humid. And without a refractometer on hand, that's fairly likely to occur at least now and then. So mead probably goes as far back as honey hunting does. Honey is a pretty poor food source for yeast, though. All carbs, no protein. Modern mead makers typically add yeast nutrients like diammonium phosphate, to get that YAN (yeast assimilable nitrogen). Without that (DAP is essentially fertilizer, it's commonly used on farms), ancient mead-makers would probably want to rely on fruits to get the bulk of their nutrients for the yeasts. Honey-Cherry seemed like a popular combo, though I'm no expert in alcohol history. Pure honey-water solutions are nutrient-poor and prone to issues of incomplete and sluggish fermentation, which opens the way up for all sorts of contamination from spoilage organisms. That said, I've had a pail of honey spontaneously ferment, and it tasted quite fine.

Additionally, ancient beekeepers didn't have access to removable-frame hives, like the modern Langstroth hive. They would typically use the crush and strain method, which would probably get a lot of pollen and possibly bees into the must. I'm not at all sure about the impact of squished larvae in mead, but pollen has been scientifically shown to be a fair source of YAN. I've used it myself and was satisfied with the results.

So overall, making decent mead back then probably happened frequently enough even without any know-how or intent.

You know significantly more than me about beer-making, but I like to point out that AFAIK beer enjoyed by a common man outside of the cities (and from population ratios if you are a city inhabitant you are definitely not a common man even if you are a commoner or worse) was made in small batches supposed to be consumed in maybe a week after being made, no more. Smaller communities would have it only for festivals, larger may make it continuously but pressure-containing vessels were definitely too fancy.

Well the issue is mouthfeel. British styles tend to have much lower carbonation, and I assume most ancient beers probably went into this style as well, at least until they figured out how to make casks right, to hold in that pressure until it's time to serve.

Brewing has two big phases, the first being fermentation and the second being conditioning, if we want to distill things to their basics. In the first, the yeast eat up nutrients to multiply and eat up sugars, converting them into ethanol, all while the must is left to vent the excess CO2 production. Once that's done, you typically add some form of sugar again and put it in a sealed vessel, where it does the same thing again, but on a smaller scale, and where the CO2 is kept within the solution as it pressurizes.

Drinking the must/beer before conditioning gives a good idea of what it'll taste like, but the mouthfeel is way off. It tastes pretty flat. To the untrained taster, one wouldn't imagine how much better it will become once carbonated.

Now, probably that in ancient times before they got good casks, flat beer was plenty "good enough" for them, I'm just saying that for a modern drinker it would probably taste quite different than what we'd typically expect. For the storage time, that's no longer relevant once you've got casks (or other pressure-tolerant vessels). Casks don't allow for single-portion sized batches to be kept carbonated, but they definitely allow for large batches of beers to be carbonated (to a certain extent) in order to yield a product similar to what a mordern drinker would expect for events or even just popular inns/pubs. Beer can and will change over time, but typically this change is not strongly positive nor negative, and it remains a product that fundamentally tastes like beer in the end.

(I brew beer, mead, cider, and various fermented drinks, keep bees, grow fruits, and work on a farm)

[Malacandra]

I wonder how much of a non-serious argument one could make that water is a poison.

If you care to Google, you will find plenty of information concerning the pernicious poison that is dihydrogen monoxide.

Here.

[WanderingMist]

If you care to Google, you will find plenty of information concerning the pernicious poison that is dihydrogen monoxide.

Here.

I see they made sure to have every single claim be true. My favorite claim from somewhere was that thousands die from accidental inhalation each year.

-------------------------------------------------

Anyway, new bad theory regarding the Gate: The statue was actually looking in the direction of the Gate the whole time and the monster dungeons are nothing more than an elaborate distraction.

[Grey Watcher]

Not quite right. The dose makes the poison.
sola dosis facit venenum

Indeed. Things like oxygen and water, which are essential to live at reasonable doses, can kill you if you take in too much at once.

[rbetieh]

I see they made sure to have every single claim be true. My favorite claim from somewhere was that thousands die from accidental inhalation each year.

-------------------------------------------------

Anyway, new bad theory regarding the Gate: The statue was actually looking in the direction of the Gate the whole time and the monster dungeons are nothing more than an elaborate distraction.

I think at this point in this thread, so long as the monster dungeons also have Grog, Mead, Moonshine, or any other such beverage designed to turn your box socials up to an 11, the general board consensus will be it was a good thing!

Besides we already have the clue from the invisible dudes that took away O-Chul, the gate is in an invisible dungeon ABOVE THEM.

[Ruck]

Not quite right. The dose makes the poison.
sola dosis facit venenum

Beer is not a poison. (There is a post that suggest perhaps it being a toxin). But it is a food item (which with slight exaggeration can be called a food group) going back as far as ancient Egypt (which I think is where it was invented).

Earliest I have heard of would be Israel circa 13,000bc, perhaps kickstarting human civilisation via creating a need for agriculture.

One thing I do remember, as I understand it, is that Egyptians invented the straw so they could taste-test their beer while it was fermenting.

Given how easy alcohol is to make ("wait for food to go bad", to be a bit simplistic about it), it's honestly surprising that beer is not about the oldest thing we know of.

Honestly, stuff like beer and cheese is some of the most remarkable aspects of human civilization and the universe to me. "Hey, I left some milk in a cave for six months. Let's check it out."

The board filter didn't catch anything, so not Sam Kennison.

*Kinison; I wasn't sure if this was a joke about his name, but I'm assuming it's about his, uh, let's say style and delivery.

(I brew beer, mead, cider, and various fermented drinks, keep bees, grow fruits, and work on a farm)

Ooh, very cool. What kind of beers do you make / like to make?

Indeed. Things like oxygen and water, which are essential to live at reasonable doses, can kill you if you take in too much at once.

I had a friend in college who decided to try to trip by drinking so much water it threw off his sodium and mineral balance. Not sure if he ever succeeded.

[Yirggzmb]

Honestly, stuff like beer and cheese is some of the most remarkable aspects of human civilization and the universe to me. "Hey, I left some milk in a cave for six months. Let's check it out."

At least for cheese, I have a hunch that it was more of a gradual thing. Soft cheeses don't take long to make, and I can imagine something similar to them happening by accident with raw milk. People gave the curds a try, and later just refined on the process.

I don't have any evidence of course, but it feels more reasonable than someone making hard cheeses first.

[Ruck]

At least for cheese, I have a hunch that it was more of a gradual thing. Soft cheeses don't take long to make, and I can imagine something similar to them happening by accident with raw milk. People gave the curds a try, and later just refined on the process.

I don't have any evidence of course, but it feels more reasonable than someone making hard cheeses first.

You're probably right; I'm just fascinated by how these natural and possibly accidentally-discovered processes can produce such amazing things.

[Goblin_Priest]

Ooh, very cool. What kind of beers do you make / like to make?

For beer I cheat a little, as I use malt extract instead of whole grain. When I said wine was simpler... ;) I started with making mead, and eventually started making beer, but didn't feel like going out to buy all those stainless kettles with valves, thermometers and whatnot, plus the mash tuns, grain mills, etc. It gets very expensive very fast. My standard kitchenware allows me to add small amounts of specialty grains to my brews, though, so it's far from off-the shelf pre-made recipes or whatnot.

I've done a variety of things, but usually my beer tends to be two or three of the following: sour, fruity (quince, apple), hoppy, low ABV. Often a mix between old world styles (like English ordinary bitters) and new world flavors (like more resinous and fragrant American hops). I'm not a huge fan of the beer styles that are super trendy, and that's actually one of the things that brought me to brew my own.

I like experimenting, though, I very rarely only do a single batch, I almost always subdivide my brews into 3 or more lots where I can fiddle with various variables. Following recipes is boring, I've only ever done my own.

[Peelee]

Honestly, stuff like beer and cheese is some of the most remarkable aspects of human civilization and the universe to me. "Hey, I left some milk in a cave for six months. Let's check it out."

At an absolute guess, I'd say that it's probably much less remarkable if you factor in two things:
1.) not having a great deal of easily accessible food, and
B.) a large enough sample size of people doing it with various foods.

*Kinison; I wasn't sure if this was a joke about his name, but I'm assuming it's about his, uh, let's say style and delivery.

Definitely the latter, the spelling I just cribbed off Korvin assuming it was correct. Kinison was the best part of Back to School, and that's no mean feat when you only have five minutes onscreen in a movie starring Dangerfield.

Also, considering that was a movie about college made in the 80's, I really hope that it didn't have any parts that aged incredibly poorly. I used to love that movie.

[Ruck]

I'm not a huge fan of the beer styles that are super trendy, and that's actually one of the things that brought me to brew my own.

I feel that. I'm generally a fan of the classic styles, Reinheitsgebot-compliant beers, etc. I like a little experiment from time to time, but years of writing on the alcohol industry kept me trying all the latest and greatest trends, and these days, when I want a beer I want it to taste like a beer.

At an absolute guess, I'd say that it's probably much less remarkable if you factor in two things:
1.) not having a great deal of easily accessible food, and
B.) a large enough sample size of people doing it with various foods.

Hey, don't try to take away my sense of wonder here.

Also, considering that was a movie about college made in the 80's, I really hope that it didn't have any parts that aged incredibly poorly. I used to love that movie.

It probably does. I mean, I haven't seen it in God knows how long, but they pretty much all do.

[dancrilis]

You're probably right; I'm just fascinated by how these natural and possibly accidentally-discovered processes can produce such amazing things.

You know it was some guys screwing around.

Guy 1: Haven't heard from Guy 3 in a while?
Guy 2: Crazy old guy, probably got eaten by a bear.
Guy 1: Na - Guy 3 wouldn't get eaten by a bear, got the plague when he was young nothing would touch him after that doubt any bear would risk it.
Guy 2: Lets go check on him so.
later that day
Guy 1: Looks like he was eaten by a bear - huh guess it was really hungry.
Guy 2: Check this out.
Guy 1: What the hell is that?!?
Guy 2: I ... I think it is goats milk.
Guy 1: Eat it!
Guy 2: What no! What the hell!
Guy 1: Chicken.
Guy 2: Yea that will work - you're so brave you eat it.
Guy 1: ... Guy 4 will eat it if we bring him hear.
Guy 2: Oh yea good thinking.
later that day
Guy 4: Ok ... fine I'll eat it jackasses.
Guy 4: ...
Guy 1: Is he ...
Guy 4: It's alright, decent in fact.
Guy 2: Bull.
Guy 1: I ... I don't think he is lying.
Guy 1: Give me some!
Guy 4: No its mine, get your own.
Guy 2: That is ours. We found it!
Guy 4: Ok - try it.
Guy 2: This a trick, I swear.
Guy 4: Then don't try it!
later that day
Guy 2: That is good alright ... do you think Guy 3 had it all this time and just didn't share?
Guy 1: Yes, yes I do.
Guy 4: And he was eaten by a bear so the lesson is ... share?
Guy 2: Sure that works.
Guy 1: What a jackass.

And thus is a possible story of how cheese was discovered.

[rbetieh]

You're probably right; I'm just fascinated by how these natural and possibly accidentally-discovered processes can produce such amazing things.

Humans are always trying to make their foods last longer. Before preservatives and refrigeration, the plan was always to process the extra food into something else.

"Hey I have some extra milk, should I throw it away?" "Heck no, give it to me to play with, lets see if we can still use this come winter"

[Goblin_Priest]

I feel that. I'm generally a fan of the classic styles, Reinheitsgebot-compliant beers, etc. I like a little experiment from time to time, but years of writing on the alcohol industry kept me trying all the latest and greatest trends, and these days, when I want a beer I want it to taste like a beer.

I do enjoy the classics such as a good pils, but my main problem is probably that I don't like "citrus" much. I've heard lots of people say "I don't like hops", but really they probably just didn't like citrusy hops. Noble hops can be appealing, but I like what North American hops have to offer, especially when we stray off the overused super citrusy ones. I also don't think a good hoppy beer requires 65+ IBUs. 20-35 is plenty for me. Keep those "100"+ IBU IIPAs away from me, thank you. ;)

Humans are always trying to make their foods last longer. Before preservatives and refrigeration, the plan was always to process the extra food into something else.

"Hey I have some extra milk, should I throw it away?" "Heck no, give it to me to play with, lets see if we can still use this come winter"

In my eyes, it was probably just accidental, for the most part. "Oh, I have lots of juice, let's store in until we drink it." A few weeks later. "Oh, hey, this juice has changed, and it's good still!" Probably less of an intention to experiment and more of a failure to preserve. You know, because they lacked fridges, and any sort of sanitation other than boiling, which does little to prevent re-contamination.

[jackal59]

what epic fantasies would those have been? Kurtz? Moorcock? Tolkien? Burroughs?

Tolkien was the first, and I've read all of those but Burroughs. I suppose you could include Roger Zelazny and Fritz Leiber in there as well.

[drazen]

Neutral Stupid is clearly the Baldur's Gate style of True Neutral where characters will criticise you for consistently feeding every starving orphan you run into but will be a-ok with you feeding every odd-numbered orphan and selling every even-numbered orphan into slavery.

Ah... so maybe that should be called "Neutral Crazy" or "Psychotic Neutral."

[Riftwolf]

Ah... so maybe that should be called "Neutral Crazy" or "Psychotic Neutral."

It was more about the concept of balancing opposing forces. The example given was fighting an invading band of trolls, but then fighting on the trolls side if they retreated back to their territory.
The gameplay didn't support the concept very well.

But back to prehistoric cheese making.
My belief was that milk was stored in sheep/cow stomachs like waterskins, and the rennet curdled the milk. However, I also know of a grosser method where calves were killed for the half-digested milk in their intestines (I can't remember the name of it, and Italy has way too many cheeses to check) that may have been around in Roman times.

[Petrocorus]

But back to prehistoric cheese making.
My belief was that milk was stored in sheep/cow stomachs like waterskins, and the rennet curdled the milk. However, I also know of a grosser method where calves were killed for the half-digested milk in their intestines (I can't remember the name of it, and Italy has way too many cheeses to check) that may have been around in Roman times.

Italians still use goat or sheep's stomachs to make cheese. I remember tasting a Sicilian cheese that was...weird. Let's say weird.