OOTS #1218 - The Discussion Thread

[Kornaki]

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Deck_of_Many_Things

1d4chan claims it was in the original greyhawk setting.

My brother and I used to sometimes kick off campaigns by making level 10 characters and then drawing from the deck of many things.

[Goblin_Priest]

I mean, sure, intelligent items can and probably should be homebrewed for balance, but RAW, all you have to do is fail a will save (roll a nat 1 for example) and then the item owns you for a day.

One day is plenty of time to mess things up. And while a new roll may be forced along the way, it can by bypassed and successive rolls can also be failed. If Frodo had yelled out to his foes 5% of the time he tried to hide from them, he'd be done for and Sauron would have his ring back. And that's assuming a low EGO or a high will save.

[danielxcutter]

Also a lot of the intelligent item abilities kinda... suck. Certainly not worth the extra GP cost most of the time, even if the item is 100% on board with what you're doing.

I mean some of the high-end ones are okay, but those are really expensive.

[Rogar Demonblud]

1d4chan claims it was in the original Greyhawk setting.

Yeah, Supplement 1. Also in every DM's Guide since.

[Thermophille]

Now I do have an idea of a game centering around intelligent items each with a separate set of ideals, and then the party has to collect them all for whatever reason...

A friend of mine wanted to run a campaign like this, where two gods are making a bet for who can gather all the artifacts first, and the winner gets to give their champions the artifacts.

[Riftwolf]

I mean, sure, intelligent items can and probably should be homebrewed for balance, but RAW, all you have to do is fail a will save (roll a nat 1 for example) and then the item owns you for a day.

One day is plenty of time to mess things up. And while a new roll may be forced along the way, it can by bypassed and successive rolls can also be failed. If Frodo had yelled out to his foes 5% of the time he tried to hide from them, he'd be done for and Sauron would have his ring back. And that's assuming a low EGO or a high will save.

Frodo *was* tricked by the ring twice in the first book (from memory); once in the Prancing Pony and again in Weathertop. That is, one interpretation of the ambiguous way LOTR treats the Rings power. It could also be that Frodo was a massive prat.

[Goblin_Priest]

Frodo *was* tricked by the ring twice in the first book (from memory); once in the Prancing Pony and again in Weathertop. That is, one interpretation of the ambiguous way LOTR treats the Rings power. It could also be that Frodo was a massive prat.

There are parallels, probably because LotR was such an inspiration to D&D. While there is some ambiguity in the phrasing, to me it looks like, if LotR was run in D&D rules, the ring could have done much worse. D&D magic items work with a dichotomous state of slave/master relation. There is no temptation, there is no influence. There is just total control, or the total lack thereof.

[KorvinStarmast]

if LotR was run in D&D rules

This way lies madness. Don't go there. They are different franchises.

[bunsen_h]

...Well that's a new one, I think.

Thinking about it further, I've an impression that it happened when the intelligent sword was subject to an area effect that caused "insanity" per the old table, which included what was then referred to as "schizophrenia". It might have been psionic combat, for example; certain modes of that could have nasty fallout effects for bystanders.

[Peelee]

This way lies madness. Don't go there. They are different franchises.

What are you talking about? Middle Earth and Faerun are both planets in the Star Wars galaxy, which makes them part of the same franchise - the Star Wars franchise.

[danielxcutter]

Thinking about it further, I've an impression that it happened when the intelligent sword was subject to an area effect that caused "insanity" per the old table, which included what was then referred to as "schizophrenia". It might have been psionic combat, for example; certain modes of that could have nasty fallout effects for bystanders.

I’ve heard about old psionics; some of the things are weird. And that it could be stupidly broken in early editions which is why there was a lot of backlash towards it in 3.Xe.

[Petrocorus]

What are you talking about? Middle Earth and Faerun are both planets in the Star Wars galaxy, which makes them part of the same franchise - the Star Wars franchise.

Pretty sure Middle Earth could be effectively run with the good ol' D6 system.

And Faerun and SW had practically the same system at some point.

I’ve heard about old psionics; some of the things are weird. And that it could be stupidly broken in early editions which is why there was a lot of backlash towards it in 3.Xe.

And here i am missing the 3.5 psionics.

[KorvinStarmast]

Frodo *was* tricked by the ring twice in the first book (from memory); once in the Prancing Pony and again in Weathertop. That is, one interpretation of the ambiguous way LOTR treats the Rings power. It could also be that Frodo was a massive prat.

Both can be true.

What are you talking about? Middle Earth and Faerun are both planets in the Star Wars galaxy, which makes them part of the same franchise - the Star Wars franchise.

I'll buy Athas being in the Star Wars universe ... but Fearun and ME? That's a tougher sell.

I’ve heard about old psionics; some of the things are weird. And that it could be stupidly broken in early editions which is why there was a lot of backlash towards it in 3.Xe.

Yes. More details at the link.

Pretty sure Middle Earth could be effectively run with the good ol' D6 system.

Or in Chainmail, which was a 2d6 system.

But now I am thinking: Drzzt was a prospective Jedi who never got found, because Qui-Gon Jinn bit the dust during that duel in Phantom Menace.
YoungNG Do'urden's midochlorian count was through the roof.
Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Saint-Just]

Many people have already seen this extended metaphor for 3.0 psionics but I should not waste an opportunity to inflict it on someone who may have missed it

Spoiler

Show

I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"

[Fyraltari]

What are you talking about? Middle Earth and Faerun are both planets in the Star Wars galaxy, which makes them part of the same franchise - the Star Wars franchise.

*Hissing noises*

Pretty sure Middle Earth could be effectively run with the good ol' D6 system.

Sure.

[mormon_soldier]

What are you talking about? Middle Earth and Faerun are both planets in the Star Wars galaxy, which makes them part of the same franchise - the Star Wars franchise.

Star wars is in our universe (just very far away) and the Shire eventually becomes England. QED.

I have no real idea about Faerun, but the Acq. Inc. special on Tomb of Annihilation suggests that it is possible to plane shift from Faerun to our Seattle, so take that for what it is.

[danielxcutter]

Star wars is in our universe (just very far away) and the Shire eventually becomes England. QED.

I have no real idea about Faerun, but the Acq. Inc. special on Tomb of Annihilation suggests that it is possible to plane shift from Faerun to our Seattle, so take that for what it is.

Plane Shift? I dunno, did that work between different Material Planes? I thought you needed spelljammers to get to other settings.

[Goblin_Priest]

This way lies madness. Don't go there. They are different franchises.

The comparison stands to illustrate how the D&D rules for sentient items would fail short on what we'd otherwise expect of them.

[bunsen_h]

Many people have already seen this extended metaphor for 3.0 psionics but I should not waste an opportunity to inflict it on someone who may have missed it

Spoiler

Show

I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"

<*snort*> I hadn't seen it before. Thank you.