OOTS #1218 - The Discussion Thread

[mjasghar]

I was gonna say, Daddy would be proud.

You must have read those strips with your eyes closed then. Tarquin wanted him to be the leader and focus, not an advisor.

[Coventry]

There's also:

• Redcloak's deception over Xykon's phylactery
• Redcloak's deception about what the ritual will do
• IFCC's ultimate plans (and two time-shares on V's soul)
• The truth about what's happening with the Snarl and the planet in the rifts
• Who captured Lien and O-chul and what their part in all this is

...and probably a few other things. We're still in like Act 1 of the finale, there's a whooooole lot of unknowns still on the board.

There is also the person who appeared in only one panel but that will be very important in the strip.

[mjasghar]

Looking at strip numbers and plot progression
I think this is the end of the first third of the book
Essentially we have set up, resolution of set up and consequential threads for the middle
So I think maybe 1 or 2 more strips and then we have the middle main action
Most likely a side by side plot where the Order encounter the Voices and paladins and get some debriefing and more Crayons
Meanwhile Team Evil will end up doing something that enables them to find the Gate
This causes the Order to have to rush in
My guess is a lot of things will cancel each other out
Roy’s archon will help cancel out the fiends
The paladins and Voices will cancel out summoned lackeys and monsters
Elan and Haley and Durkon and Minrah will be in the debuff/buff camp and occupy redclaok
Which leaves Roy vs Xykon with Belkar sacrificing himself
This will be especially poignant as the last book showed Roy is the only one who hasn’t accepted Belkar’s (limited) redemption arc.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I haven't been this proud of Roy since he asked Belkar for his opinion back in the pyramid.

[Goblin_Priest]

Apparently, Tarquin left a mark.

Indeed! I love this strip, but it did feel like there was a bit of Tarquin echoing in there. Elan's mastery of drama and narrative rules never felt as deterministic as Tarquin's. Elan always felt to me like he liked a good story, and actively worked to make his story good, while Tarquin felt more like he knew how stories worked, and abused the story to make it work for him. Which is what Roy's trying to do with Elan here.

The only time Elan really indulged in this that comes to my mind is when V and O'Chul teleported back to Durkon and Elan, thanks to MitD, and Elan incorectly predicted what the rules of drama would have the universe do next. That said, there are probably a ton of contrary examples I'm just not thinking of.

[Psyren]

So let's start the bets!

What will they find?

A) an already cleared cave filled with corpes and other maybe usefull things
B) a cave filled with monsters that casually are at their level and not at Xykon's
C) a cave filled with epic monsters that make them retreat
D) the gate

So, the odds of finding the gate at random are, like, a million to one? =)

So you bet on D, nice!

Put me down for D too. Or at least something that lets them realize which door it is when TE didn't.

Also, I'm still banking on:
by accident
find the gate

[skim172]

My money was on "build to a false climax, THEN a rug pull brought about by some massive central plot twist, opening a whole new section of the story."

An overtime, if you will.

[Alcore]

So let's start the bets!

What will they find?

A) an already cleared cave filled with corpes and other maybe usefull things
B) a cave filled with monsters that casually are at their level and not at Xykon's
C) a cave filled with epic monsters that make them retreat
D) the gate

none of the monster are specifically at Xykon's level that we know of. He remarked once that some were able to give him xp. His rough level is about 25 with class and templates. You can only get xp from encounters 8 levels above or below.

The CR of the monsters are in the mid teens with some being 17+ CR.

Well within the parties range.

[Shining Wrath]

Never change, Elan.

I think Belkar is beginning to develop a smidgen of wisdom - "That's the worst case for your plan, too, so why not cut to the chase?".

What none of them suggested is that Xykon is likely to get bored, or start to think about why only part of OotS showed up his camp if their intention was battle - and if it wasn't, what were they there for? I still don't think Redcloak wants to have that conversation.

[danielxcutter]

none of the monster are specifically at Xykon's level that we know of. He remarked once that some were able to give him xp. His rough level is about 25 with class and templates. You can only get xp from encounters 8 levels above or below.

The CR of the monsters are in the mid teens with some being 17+ CR.

Well within the parties range.

The Geekery thread strongly suggests that he has to have quite more than just 21 levels in Sorcerer; the most likely scenario is Sorcerer 26+.

Even if he was just a 21st-level Sorcerer, that means at least some are at least CR 18 and there seem to be a fair number of monsters not too far behind considering how battered Team Evil is. Not CR 17; you don't get any XP aside from ad-hoc if the CR of the monster is 8 higher or lower than yours, so within 7 levels either way.

[Jacky720]

Or

Prestidigitation -- erase every trace of an X, and go there.

I like this one. Keep it simple. Redcloak is probably too pissed after the last double-bluff to put any stock in another. Heck, maybe even play it straight and just rely on the number of doors.

They will most likely learn that a lot of the X marks are fake in a simple manner of seeing an unexplored cavern full of monsters that will keep them occupied for a while.

Come to think of it, the Gate might not even be behind any of those doors. Serini is (was?) a rogue, the many doors is just like a typical shell game and we all already know, how those work.

But remember that they were the ones to pull off that shell game in the first place. I would bet 10 gp that they already searched every inch of that chasm before they started picking doors at random. (that was from memory don't @ me)

Oh look, quotes broke and I'm too lazy to fix it.

The multiple choice one

I hadn't thought of B before, but I like it.

[Shining Wrath]

So let's start the bets!

What will they find?

A) an already cleared cave filled with corpes and other maybe usefull things
B) a cave filled with monsters that casually are at their level and not at Xykon's
C) a cave filled with epic monsters that make them retreat
D) the gate

A cave which might contain any of the above, but they don't go any deeper than the entrance. They aren't looking for trouble.

One clever way to hide, perhaps:

Wall of Stone -- cover up the door they go into. Not sure he has one left after blowing it on the table, though.

Silent Image -- put a fake rock wall over an "X" door somewhere, so when Redcloak activates True Seeing, he thinks that's where they went.

Bonus being that Oona was wrong, so Xykon won't listen to her tracking a second time, because his personality is to quickly grow impatient with underlings who waste his time.

The real problem is we have established Greyview can track by scent. Unless someone can pop off an "eliminate scents for some distance" spell, he'll sniff them out.

Roy learned from Tarquin that this dramatic crap actually works in this universe, and can be used to your advantage. You just have to be genre-savvy, and know which genre you're in. Tarquin was in the "bad guy wins an empire and rules for 30 years before a paladin breaks into his throne room and kills him" story, and acted accordingly.

Team Evil will disappear. This is because they're in an improperly X'd cave. After quickly dispatching the monsters (off-panel, of course - too hard to draw!) they discover the Gate. OOTS waits till the next day wondering what the hell happened before figuring it out. Possibly befriends bugbear camp.

I don't think OOTS has any way of knowing what the red X's on the doors mean.

I think they talked to Lien and learned that Team Evil was marking the doors. But I also think that narratively channels Elan it would be about the right time for Team Evil to discover some doors are improperly marked. And suspicion will fall on MitD, because he's been marking doors recently. However, MitD is smart enough to have come up with an explanation.

[Ruck]

Looking at strip numbers and plot progression
I think this is the end of the first third of the book

29 strips is not going to be one-third of the book. It's closer to one-third of one-third of the book.

[Grey Watcher]

Minrah and Belkar in the last panel have another classic OOTS exchange!

It's interesting to see V advocate for the less cautious approach.

[mjasghar]

I meant the first third as in beginning middle and end plot wise
We have the set up for what’s going on with Team Evil - in a cave that they may well not have done and possibly the Superb Dispel about to be used resulting in finding the secret of the dungeons. Meanwhile the Order are also about to enter. So maybe one or 2 strips as they get ready with buffs etc
The middle will likely be the longest part of the story so will take up more than a third in number
Then the denouement and coda similar lengths to the beginning

[Anitar]

I wonder which skill Elan had to roll for to make that judgment call.
...Also, I have no clue what he meant by "dramatic catharsis".

[ebarde]

I wonder if this book will come full circle and have a majority of it be a dungeon crawler

[A r c a d i a]

Guys, what if this has actually progressed further than we expected, but not in terms of “the final fight with Team Evil”.

What if that thunderous explosion Vaarsuvius heard was actually Team Evil inadvertently blowing up the last Gate somehow?

That... would change the current direction of everything A LOT.

[Peelee]

Guys, what if this has actually progressed further than we expected, but not in terms of “the final fight with Team Evil”.

What if that thunderous explosion Vaarsuvius heard was actually Team Evil inadvertently blowing up the last Gate somehow?

That... would change the current direction of everything A LOT.

Well, in theory, that would change the current direction to "the gods destroy the universe and the comic is over".

[A r c a d i a]

Well, in theory, that would change the current direction to "the gods destroy the universe and the comic is over".

That’s assuming the gods could immediately and unanimously decide to nuke the world. While I don’t disagree that destroying the world is what their likely decision would be, and it would ramp up the timetable a lot, I don’t know that it would be that sudden.

Heck, we could even have the Snarl break out and end up being “different” than we expected, with some revelations about the world within the rift and such. The Snarl breaking out is a narrative possibility that doesn’t have to immediately end the comic.

[KorvinStarmast]

Panel 13 is probably Prestigitation.

And Lovecraft wept.
(I think you are correct)

Elan’s right, though. This really isn’t the right time for the climactic confrontation.

Yeah, he's got a point there. We are only a couple of dozen pages into the book.

[Peelee]

That’s assuming the gods could immediately and unanimously decide to nuke the world. While I don’t disagree that destroying the world is what their likely decision would be, and it would ramp up the timetable a lot, I don’t know that it would be that sudden.

Heck, we could even have the Snarl break out and end up being “different” than we expected, with some revelations about the world within the rift and such. The Snarl breaking out is a narrative possibility that doesn’t have to immediately end the comic.

True, they wouldn't destroy the universe immediately. They would destroy the universe in less than ten to fifteen minutes.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Dion]

So, I’ve seen a few movies, so I know how this stuff works.

Sometimes an attractive enough hero can randomly wander around like a dumb schmuck and stumble through David Bowie’s labyrinth or find the princess in a space fortress in a galaxy with 50 million systems, or whatever impossible random coincidence you won’t think too much about while eating popcorn.

But if that doesn’t work right away, then there’s always a secret trick. And the trick is invariably “it was with you all along”.

And that is how we know that the final gate must be with Oona. Or maybe Grayview. Or Belkar.

Yes, thats it! I’ve solved it! The final gate is Belkar, and he unlocks it by being slightly less awful.

[Gift Jeraff]

Oh yeah, I forgot about these funny little characters.

[bunsen_h]

The real problem is we have established Greyview can track by scent. Unless someone can pop off an "eliminate scents for some distance" spell, he'll sniff them out.

Terry Pratchett has shown how to solve that: blast the area with something utterly putrid. Essence of skunk mixed with concentrated rotting flesh, kind of thing.

I think they talked to Lien and learned that Team Evil was marking the doors. But I also think that narratively channels Elan it would be about the right time for Team Evil to discover some doors are improperly marked. And suspicion will fall on MitD, because he's been marking doors recently. However, MitD is smart enough to have come up with an explanation.

If the Order are able to erase a bunch of door markings, that issue will be covered.

[Darth Paul]

whoa! the rare sunday posting, i did not expect that! no one expects a sunday posting!

In fact, those who DO expect a Sunday posting.... no no, our chief weapons are surprise, fear, and.... I'll start again...

[Thermophille]

Right now, I have three major questions.

1. Will the door the Order hides in have monsters?

2. Does the Order have the resources and skills necessary to hide themselves in any case from an inspection?

3. How the Order be able to get out if they hide for long enough?


I think the answer to 1. will be interesting. The Order is ~16th level (judging by Varsavius' ability to prepare 3 copies of Mind Blank), in the same general ballpark as Redcloak and (presumably) Oona. If Team Evil is able to clear 6 dungeons in a day, the Order should be able to handle one, especially with 6 members. Either way, I think the next few strips will mostly focus on TE, and their reaction to what they find in the door, which the general consensus seems to be 'definitely monsters, but probably not the gate'.

For 2, I think that between Oona and Greyview, the Order can't hide. But since I think we're going to get into the 'blame game' of who's been marking doors pretty soon, I think that will distract them long enough for Xykon to dismiss two random dwarf clerics that he doesn't care about, and Redcloak isn't going to tell him why they were there. The issue of whether he'll blame them for marking them and trying to lure him into a trap, or if they'll settle on MitD has already been discussed, but either way, I think it will provide a distraction.

As for 3, we could end up with the Order hiding in there until they regain spell slots not knowing about the distraction, or we could have them leave once the coast is clear and Xykon is distracted by someone foiling his search. I don't think the question here is whether they'll be able to get out (as Elan said, we're at the beginning of the end, no time for the climax), but if we're going to spend a significant amount of time with the Order inside one of the doors.

[Mariele]

Wow. Possibly the single (double?) strip where everyone's pesonality is best displayed, all at once.

Agreed!

Couldn't wait to see the group finding Durkon, didn't expect it to go like this. I really thought they'd all fly/run back to the paladin's hideout! Can't wait to see what's inside the doors, now. :D It's getting good!

[Alcore]

The Geekery thread strongly suggests that he has to have quite more than just 21 levels in Sorcerer; the most likely scenario is Sorcerer 26+.

Even if he was just a 21st-level Sorcerer, that means at least some are at least CR 18 and there seem to be a fair number of monsters not too far behind considering how battered Team Evil is. Not CR 17; you don't get any XP aside from ad-hoc if the CR of the monster is 8 higher or lower than yours, so within 7 levels either way.

i stand corrected on CR xp rates. I just don't have the energy to do the research...

if he is sorcerer 26+ then his level is 30+ after templates...

Remember; they are doing the doors like evil PCs, templates need to be counted. Xykon doesn't really travel like most epics and is a big fish in a small pond. The idea of him still leveling after 21 or 22 seems unlikely to me; there just isn't enough stuff left in the material to challenge him after getting a +4 level template.