OOTS #1218 - The Discussion Thread

[Forikroder]

even if Serini was planning a shell game type deception, it makes more sense to put the deception behind all the monsters, if you clear 100 doors finding nothing eventually your gonna get lax searching especially if the monsters exhaust all your stamina and spell slots

[Wraithfighter]

Not quite true.

In the shell game of a true professional, the prize is under whatever cup the professional wants, whenever they want it to be there. When they want somebody to win a low-value game, they force them to win. When somebody places a big bet and its time to pluck the chicken, it doesn't matter what you pick, you lose, and they'll SHOW you the prize under a different cup. Sometimes they'll even let you switch cups and then show you the ball under the cup you gave up, to twist the knife.

........huh.

That... brings a question to mind. Or a thought or possibility. Not sure exactly.

What if Kragoor's Tombs were like instanced dungeons in an MMORPG? You go into the door, and come into this, well, dungeon with a lot of monsters to kill and more loot to get... governed by a Random Number Generator. I'm not sure if Extradimensional Stone could do that, but that sounds to me like a "Magic magic magic. Magic? Magic magic!" situation...

...but anyway, in this case, there's also a GM behind the device, who can tell the RNG what to spit out if needed. A way for Serini to keep the Gate safe from interlopers like Team Evil, but also to bring people to it if needed without having to deal with a giant pack of monsters powerful enough to give a Lich as powerful as Xykon EXP, and a way to keep the gate safe from the monsters themselves.

[Ruck]

In the shell game of an absolute master, the prize isn't under any cup-- OR the dealer's sleeve, either. Given that Serini put together hundreds of dungeons, each with some monsters strong enough to give Xykon XP, I think it's safe to say she's done literally as much as possible to defend this gate.

In light of this... I can't help but feel like the entire "Making the right guess isn't how you get there, and I have an idea what the trick might be" crowd is also barking up the wrong tree, somehow.

I have refrained from guessing precisely because I have no idea if there's a trick, or what the trick might be, or if it really is just guessing + brute force. The one thing I'm fairly confident of it is won't be any twist that's already been used in the story.

[Morty]

To me, the best reconciling between Serini being a thief and her defending the gate with might would be if somewhere between the tunnels there were a pocket of stone with the gate inside of it. Even if Team Evil knew that, they wouldn't know where, so they'd still have to dig through and run into monsters and, unless they efficiently start digging in one corner and work to the other side instead of digging in random spots, potentially turn it into a confusing labyrinth in the process. If they carefully charted all the tunnels as they emptied them out, they'd have a map showing potential spots to dig, but of course they haven't been doing that. That way anyone after the gate still needs might, but they also need to think through what they're doing, and random adventurers (or the bugbears) aren't going to just happen across the gate without meaning to.

I don't think it'll be in a completely different location because the only reason anyone thinks the gate is there is because she put it in her journal, and if she was going to fill her journal with misinformation she wouldn't be talking about the gates at all.

Why is any "reconciliation" needed? We don't actually know a whole lot about Serini and how she operated. We can infer she was an earnest and good-natured person, since she stepped in to prevent Dorukan, Soon and Girard from killing each other. And that she wanted to honor Kraagor with the defences she built. That's about it. The only reason to assume subterfuge is involved seems to be her class.

[Potatopeelerkin]

"Wait, has anyone here experienced dramatic catharsis in the last five or ten minutes?"

Does 'finally being listened to by Roy' count? Maybe that moment already passed.

[Riftwolf]

After all this time, the Order is finally working together like a well-oiled machine.

A well-oiled machine made by combining parts from incompatible machines, but a well-oiled one.

If my understanding of Ork technology is correct, 'more oil' is the solution to any mechanical problem.

[Ruck]

Roy and Elan's relationship has actually come full circle. Roy put him on the team in the first place because Elan understood the genre conventions around building a team of adventurers. Now he's relying on Elan's knowledge of genre conventions to determine when a final battle should be fought. Elan is in effect doing the job he was hired for, and Roy finally understands how best to use Elan's talents for the party's success.

Heh, I like this observation.

It's 36.5 pages right now, so about 10%. Actually, given the intro and recap strips, you're probably right.

I didn't do a page count, but Rich has said he expects this to be the longest book, and the previous longest (Blood Runs in the Family) was 274 strips. 29 x 9 = 261, so I'm probably actually short a little.

Why is any "reconciliation" needed? We don't actually know a whole lot about Serini and how she operated. We can infer she was an earnest and good-natured person, since she stepped in to prevent Dorukan, Soon and Girard from killing each other. And that she wanted to honor Kraagor with the defences she built. That's about it. The only reason to assume subterfuge is involved seems to be her class.

And just to emphasize, she's a Rogue, not a Thief. Sure, terminology-wise D&D just made that class name change between editions, but character-wise a rogue would not necessarily be so concerned with thievery.

[Wraithfighter]

I didn't do a page count, but Rich has said he expects this to be the longest book, and the previous longest (Blood Runs in the Family) was 274 strips. 29 x 9 = 261, so I'm probably actually short a little.

In the traditional 3 act structure (which is not a requirement for a good story or applicable to every story but is at least a useful framework for this sort of analysis in order to get a grasp on things), the first (where we get set-up and the inciting incident
for the story) and third (where the big boss fight is expected, as well as any complications that might arise during it) acts tend to be shorter compared to the second act. And since this is the final book in a freakin' epic series, we can probably append a 4th "act" on there to handle the epilogue stuff, wrapping up loose ends, happy endings (or sad endings, only Elan is prophesized to get a happy one), that sort of thing.

So, rounding up to 300 strips, given the expectation that this book would be longer than the previous one (and because round numbers are easier to work with)? That'd be ~60 strips for Act 1, ~120 for Act 2, ~60 for Act 3, and ~60 for the stuff for extended wrap-up bits.

I'm being very loose and rough with the math, but the point is that we're still very much within the first act right now. We may still be within the Inciting Incident, where the status quo is upended as we barrel on towards the first major plot point.

Just a general point, we're still early on in this book. It might be the final book, but that doesn't mean that there's not plenty of major revelations yet to come...

[Shining Wrath]

I believe the Prophet told the Order there were 9 sides, or something like that?

We cannot get to a denouement until a few more sides are on the scene.

[danielxcutter]

I believe the Prophet told the Order there were 9 sides, or something like that?

We cannot get to a denouement until a few more sides are on the scene.

One of the demon roaches mentioned that when Redcloak was talking to Jirix about Xykon actually.

[The MunchKING]

I believe the Prophet told the Order there were 9 sides, or something like that?

We cannot get to a denouement until a few more sides are on the scene.

Except people have come up with lists that expand beyond just 9 sides. SO we could have already had all the dies we're getting.

[Grey Watcher]

I think, with regards to Serini, it's worth noting that Haley is able to tune into the way Girard thought not because she's a Rogue, but because she used to be like Girard insofar as she believed that deception is the best defense.

We don't know much about Serini. Yeah, maybe she took the Rogue class because she's sneaky like that. Or maybe she doesn't have a dishonest bone in her body and never put a single point in Bluff, Hide, or Move Silently, instead preferring to use the class features for exploration.

So maybe a shell game never occurred to her? Or it's exactly what she's doing? Without knowing more about Serini herself, we can't really say anything with any degree of certainty.

(Though I'm inclined to agree with the above that, out of character, Rich is unlikely to give the same gimmick to two dungeons in a row.)

[The MunchKING]

Maybe she's secretly a Belkar style super-murderer and went into Rogue for that sweet Sneak Attack DPT.

[Grey Watcher]

Maybe she's secretly a Belkar style super-murderer and went into Rogue for that sweet Sneak Attack DPT.

Now I'm just imagining the Order meeting Serini and Belkar saying "... Mom?"

[KorvinStarmast]

Now I'm just imagining the Order meeting Serini and Belkar saying "... Mom?"

That would be cool, and there was that reference to Aunt Judy way back when.

But I don't think that a Belkar back story is something Rich wanted to do, and I also don't think that someone depicted as kind and caring (Serini) would leave their newborn and wander off forever, unless she gave him up for adoption at birth or something? And then she changed her name?

Not seeing it all fit together like that.

[Grey Watcher]

That would be cool, and there was that reference to Aunt Judy way back when.

But I don't think that a Belkar back story is something Rich wanted to do, and I also don't think that someone depicted as kind and caring (Serini) would leave their newborn and wander off forever, unless she gave him up for adoption at birth or something? And then she changed her name?

Not seeing it all fit together like that.

Nah, I don't seriously think it'll play out that way, it was just a funny mental image I had in response to the idea that Serini became Rogue solely for the amount of damage she could inflict.

[bunsen_h]

How about: The floor plans of all of the dungeons spell out an encrypted message, and you have to get the entire message to successfully decrypt it? That would be a nice use of both the brute-force and rogue skill sets. It would require that there be wards set up to prevent someone from bypassing the monsters, zipping in and out without fighting.

[Grey Watcher]

How about: The floor plans of all of the dungeons spell out an encrypted message, and you have to get the entire message to successfully decrypt it? That would be a nice use of both the brute-force and rogue skill sets. It would require that there be wards set up to prevent someone from bypassing the monsters, zipping in and out without fighting.

"My name is Sheltem"?

[Dion]

Maybe Oona was right all along and and monster hollow isn’t Kraagors tomb.

Maybe Monster hollow is just a petting a zoo Serini created in her spare time because she likes animals.

Maybe Kraagors tomb is somewhere else.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Doesn't explain why she wrote down the coordinates in her diary under the heading Five Gates That Keep The Gods From Blowing Up The World. Also doesn't explain why the paladins know this is the location of the Fifth Gate, as passed down to them by Soon, the guy who was there.

[Dion]

Doesn't explain why she wrote down the coordinates in her diary under the heading Five Gates That Keep The Gods From Blowing Up The World. Also doesn't explain why the paladins know this is the location of the Fifth Gate, as passed down to them by Soon, the guy who was there.

I’m not saying it’s not nearby.

But in the crayon drawing, the gate is outside.

I mean, I know the crayon drawings aren’t exact representations. But it has never made sense to my why they’re trying to find a gate that’s supposed to be above ground in an underground location called monster hollow?

My guess is that before the end of the book Oona says “I told you this wasn’t Kraagor’s tomb. You didn’t listen.”

Heck, for all I know maybe Oona’s job as a beast master is to take the biggest meanest monsters from monster hollow and set them in front of the tomb to guard it. And she hasn’t told Redcloak and Xykon because they never bothered to ask.

[Fyraltari]

I’m not saying it’s not nearby.

But in the crayon drawing, the gate is outside.

I mean, I know the crayon drawings aren’t exact representations. But it has never made sense to my why they’re looking for a gate that’s supposed to be outside in an underground location called monster hollow?

Girard's Gate was also outside. And so was Dorukan's. Yet when the Order got to them, both were very much underground. The Scribblers did significant landscaîng, as is obvious by the extradimensional stone.

My guess is that before the end of the book Oona says “I told you this wasn’t Kraagor’s tomb. You didn’t listen.”

What she said was that she doesn't know Kraagor, though.

[arimareiji]

"My name is Sheltem"?

"It's not what you say, it's who you know."

[Yxylu]

I didn't do a page count, but Rich has said he expects this to be the longest book, and the previous longest (Blood Runs in the Family) was 274 strips. 29 x 9 = 261, so I'm probably actually short a little.

For another data point, Blood Runs in the Family has the most panels of any book, at 3,579. Utterly Dwarfed is second with 3,252. So far, we have 373 panels in Book 7, so a little over 10% of Blood Runs in the Family. Those counts for the completed books do include the bonus content, chapter title pages, “previously on” recaps, etc., so there is a little bit of fudging of the numbers. Who knows what this actually means, though?

[arimareiji]

For another data point, Blood Runs in the Family has the most panels of any book, at 3,579. Utterly Dwarfed is second with 3,252. So far, we have 373 panels in Book 7, so a little over 10% of Blood Runs in the Family. Those counts for the completed books do include the bonus content, chapter title pages, “previously on” recaps, etc., so there is a little bit of fudging of the numbers. Who knows what this actually means, though?

I have a compulsion for figuring up meaningless statistics like "which baseball team had the best/worst home/away record in the last two decades", and even I'm afraid to ask how this was determined. (^_~)

[Anitar]

I have a compulsion for figuring up meaningless statistics like "which baseball team had the best/worst home/away record in the last two decades", and even I'm afraid to ask how this was determined. (^_~)

I don't see any other way to obtain such precise figures other than manually counting everything. I think the question here isn't "how", so much as "why".

[Storm_Of_Snow]

But I don't think that a Belkar back story is something Rich wanted to do

It was one of the patron-choice Kickstarter stories, and I'm assuming it will get a printed version at some point.

For the gate, one thing to consider is that Serini's not set the gate's defences up as a rogue, she's set them up as she thought Kraagor would have done them, so somewhere between a rogue and a barbarian.

[Dion]

For the gate, one thing to consider is that Serini's not set the gate's defences up as a rogue, she's set them up as she thought Kraagor would have done them, so somewhere between a rogue and a barbarian.

And everyone knows barbarian love nothing more than to fight the one big boss monster at the end! Therefore the gate is In a giant open arena protected by one big boss monster.

MiTD: oh, hi mom!

[Ruck]

It was one of the patron-choice Kickstarter stories, and I'm assuming it will get a printed version at some point.

Are you referring to Uncivil Servant? It's already been done.

Rich doesn't want to do a Belkar backstory because he doesn't want to create tragic or sympathetic motivations for his love of violence and killing.

[KorvinStarmast]

It was one of the patron-choice Kickstarter stories, and I'm assuming it will get a printed version at some point.

I have Uncivil Servant, if that is what you are referring to. It does not offer him a back story, but it does illustrate his bloody handed nature before he arrived at OoTPCs

Spoiler: Otootpcs spoiler?

Show

in a jail cell

and before his general "stab it as a default" in DCF.

For the gate, one thing to consider is that Serini's not set the gate's defences up as a rogue, she's set them up as she thought Kraagor would have done them, so somewhere between a rogue and a barbarian.

A Ranger, then?