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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    You believe that two characters, one of which has died twice already, will die permanently with no foreshadowing, while another character whose death has been signposted and teased for the last five years or so will get off on a technicality?
    Durkon's death has most definitely been foreshadowed: check out his parting with Hilgya and Kudzu.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Durkon's death has most definitely been foreshadowed: check out his parting with Hilgya and Kudzu.
    Are you referring to this scene?
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  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    If you have the right coloured goggles on, anything can look like foreshadowing.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Look, the "Banjo Saves The Day" and "Redcloak Should Die" hypotheticals are just that: hypotheticals.

    realistically, its not just a new god that needs to be helping: its a new god with a 9th level spell slot casting cleric. There is a world of difference between a made up god that the party's spoony bard put on his character sheet, and a god that the GM has enshrined and built in as important to the setting. Even if we count those orcs, there is simply no way Banjo has that kind of power.

    while Redcloak/Dark One not helping....basically means the world is doomed. If we had another new god that was a contender for the Dark One, we'd have got them by now.

    and honestly I don't see what is peoples problems with the OOTS pulling off getting Redcloak to help? Yes Redcloak is incredibly stubborn about this, evil, hypocritical, revenge focused and caused far too many unnecessary deaths. He's basically a more intelligent better written Sasuke Uchiha at the end of the day. But! If his crimes were lighter and his mindset more amenable.....it wouldn't mean anything to successfully convince him to turn over a new leaf now wouldn't it? A Redcloak that would be so easily swayed and have so little deaths on his hands, would be a Redcloak that wouldn't have gone through all this trouble in the first place. That doesn't mean he can't be persuaded, simply that it will take measures above and beyond what most people would consider reasonable to make it happen.

    like sure, all you people wanting Redcloak to die, thinking "he is so stubborn, I could never convince this guy, clearly he is beyond hope". have a point. your a normal person, and therefore want people to act reasonably within certain tolerances, and Redcloak is beyond those tolerances. This is a perfectly normal reaction in normal circumstances, and completely valid to say if he just some jerk living in normal society. But these are circumstances where if he isn't convinced? Where if he doesn't get saved? The world ends and a whole lot of pain and suffering that could be prevented won't be. These are not circumstances where someone can just dismiss him and find someone else to fill the part. Sometimes there is no one else, sometimes there is actually no other option.

    Like even if I DID find someone else to do it, it would still be worth trying to convince Redcloak to switch sides, not for any moral redemption reason, but because its just tactically/strategically advisable. Having two people who could possibly fix this whole mess is way better than one, and denying Xykon a 17th+ level cleric would be golden, especially one that has his phylactery on him. Having two such clerics also makes sure that if Xykon kills one, you got another. More chances against a powerful lich like him? Why wouldn't I go for that? The entire world hinges on my success, its either go for any option or possibility that could prevent that the end of the world in hopes that it will work no matter how improbable- or let everything die. One chance that it can be done is good, but two is better. You can never be too careful.

    And as it stands, due to Redcloaks own ignorance about the situation and then skepticism/doubt of the facts, he will already be punished for going through with his Plan in either of its success states: either he dies to the gods destroying the world and watches as his own god whom he sacrificed everything for in the afterlife fades away from a lack of prayer, or the Dark One attempts to use the Gate.....and in doing so either makes the gods refuse to negotiate and thus cause a new Snarl that kills everyone or the Dark One in a classic case of "villain attempts to control something more powerful than themselves and it backfires horribly" tries to use it but the Snarl turns on him and he gets killed anyways, then the Snarl probably kills all the other gods then unmakes existence. So really, Redcloak is just digging his own grave, there is no world where his Plan will be a success, due to the narrative laws involved. But the heroes succeeding in persuading him to change? Is at least a possible end where his punishment won't take the entire rest of the world with him, even if he gets redeemed in the process.

    This isn't about preventing Redcloak from succeeding in his plan, this is about preventing Redcloak from shooting him and everyone in the cosmos in the foot, because there is no way his plan will succeed, now that I think about it.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    If you have the right coloured goggles on, anything can look like foreshadowing.
    I wear my sunglasses at night
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    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    This isn't about preventing Redcloak from succeeding in his plan, this is about preventing Redcloak from shooting him and everyone in the cosmos in the foot, because there is no way his plan will succeed, now that I think about it.
    (Hm. I wonder.)

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    I agree with Metastachydium. I rather think Redcloak's plan will succeed, or perhaps "succeed" in quotes.

    If the objective is to get Redcloak to change his mind and work against the Snarl, then the best way I can think of is for Redcloak to "succeed" in his plan — he does what he was told to do — but it doesn't do what he hoped it would. No justice for Gobbotopia, no betterment for goblins' social standing, just mindless petty revenge by the Dark One (to name one possibility).

    The second-best way is to have the Dark One change the plan. If the Dark One stops playing the short game and starts looking at his own long-term survival, it's possible he'll give Redcloak new orders. (I doubt this is going to happen, but you know, never say never.)
    The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Spoiler: SoD
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    I'm skeptical that Redcloak will be devoured. It's a good Chekhov's Gun that Xykon set up in the prequel book, but I have a hard time envisioning how Redcloak dying could fit with 1.) the Dark One Quiddity Stuff and 2.) The MitD's character development.

    My theory is that the "devour Redcloak" line was a red herring, or at least a sign that Xykon is preparing for disobedience from Redcloak...and even thinks he's got him now fully under his thumb. But that was written ~13 years ago, and a lot of plot points have kind of stepped on that dynamic or pushed it to the side. While it's still possible, and while I definitely think that Chekhov's Gun is going to go off, I don't see it actually happening as planned.
    I wonder if it's mechanically possible that he gets devoured and then... simply spat out.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    I wonder if it's mechanically possible that he gets devoured and then... simply spat out.
    It probably is. In fact, given how the narrative chessboard is set up, that might be the likeliest scenario.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
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    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    We don't know how long it's been since TDO has destroyed Thor's messengers, and none of the other gods have been able to contact him since then. Why not? Because he's just ignoring them? Or because he's dead?
    Maybe there is an issue about the quiddity being different; we never saw different quiddities together except in crayon - so maybe there are cosmic rules denying contact between Thor and TDO directly?

    Speaking of crayon, is it just me that find intriguing the fact that the crayon snarl is purple, same as TDO's quiddity?

    Thinking about the snarl, it was created everytime gods had to dispose of an idea, rejected by other gods. The idea of the Snarl may thus be "the rejected, the trash, the disposable" and it is also TDO. Redcloak took to himself and his gobbo ppl as their one true god, not because of gobbo blood, but coz of the feeling of being rejected/disopsed/trashed by the universe and all.

    So, if TDO sphere of divinity is rejection, not the vengeance that Redcloak himself carries, we can relate to another character that also have been rejected and negleted so far... the MitD. '-'

    Maybe the MitD horrid appearance has a reason... (tun dun dun!) It is made of purple crayon! It is the Baby Snarl, and also TDO himself - and maybe this is why both Redcloak and Xykon are so confident in their crusade. TDO didn't participate in the gods' original rules, then nothing stops it to wander in the mortal realm. He can be a god that is not like any god at all!

    ...maybe i got a little carried away xD

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    I wonder if it's mechanically possible that he gets devoured and then... simply spat out.
    I've thought that the MITD finally figuring out who he is, will mean that he will no longer feel compelled to devour RedCloak.
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    Which means he was playing along---as a child would, not as an adult trying to fool someone---when Xykon gave him the compulsion in SoD. It also might mean there still exists another additional quiddity beside TDO's


    I can't see Banjo being a substantial piece of wrapping up this plot.

    Aside, anyone else think Tiamat may make an appearance? Or is her anger at the Black Dragons being killed, being handled by the Fiends?

    EDIT: were it not for the whole 'last breath being drawn stuff', a great way to deal with Belkar would be for him to go to the World in the Rift. It would exemplify Minrah telling him about being a whole new person, where nobody knew what the old person was like, and wouldn't remind him of what he used to be. He might actually get to that CG afterlife with Shojo.
    Last edited by Ghosty; 2020-11-24 at 10:47 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Aside, anyone else think Tiamat may make an appearance? Or is her anger at the Black Dragons being killed, being handled by the Fiends?
    Well, I'm all for Team Tiamat and I do think the Voices, the mystery ally or both could be her agents, but I'm also pretty sure she will not visit the Tomb in person.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    The only real objection here is that Jirix would have to be lying. That's not a problem in itself; however, Jirix isn't on-site to explain his lie, which makes it narratively unsatisfying.
    If Redcloak is sufering from a serious delusion of having a god then he may instill that delusion into the minds of others.

    He might have "mesmerized" Jirix inadvertedly when he raised him from the dead. Jirix would think that he had a post mortem vision of the Dark One but those would be fake memories.
    Life is like a ladder in a henhouse; it is short, but full of guano.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginasius View Post
    If Redcloak is sufering from a serious delusion of having a god then he may instill that delusion into the minds of others.

    He might have "mesmerized" Jirix inadvertedly when he raised him from the dead. Jirix would think that he had a post mortem vision of the Dark One but those would be fake memories.
    ......what?

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginasius View Post
    If Redcloak is sufering from a serious delusion of having a god then he may instill that delusion into the minds of others.

    He might have "mesmerized" Jirix inadvertedly when he raised him from the dead. Jirix would think that he had a post mortem vision of the Dark One but those would be fake memories.
    And you think this is, a more satisfying thing than Jirix lying? It still can’t be explained easily from the perspective of the plot and in addition to that doesn’t seem possible, Redcloak accidentally imprinted false memories on Jirix by casting Raise Dead on him? That’s breaking literally any understanding of how spells work. Jirix could theoretically get involved in the plot and have his reasons for lying developed, but no one has any reason to know these fake memories exist and stretches believability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    I'm skeptical of MITD eating Redcloak being a significant plot point. It was only introduced in SoD, which most readers aren't familiar with. For it to pay off in a big way in the comic, it would have to be introduced to the broader audience well in advance of when it happens, and I think we're running out of time for that.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Thales View Post
    I'm skeptical of MITD eating Redcloak being a significant plot point. It was only introduced in SoD, which most readers aren't familiar with. For it to pay off in a big way in the comic, it would have to be introduced to the broader audience well in advance of when it happens, and I think we're running out of time for that.
    We could have close to 300 pages left. I think there’s still time to introduce that plot point. I can’t imagine why Rich would have included that SoD scene if he didn’t intend it to pay off later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
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    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    There's only one thing I'm sure of. At the climax, when the alliance between Redcloak and Xykon finally falls apart, Redcloak yells:

    MY. NAME. IS. [Redcloak's true name that was never revealed].
    Proud White Cloak Acolyte of the Fan Club.

    Neither murderous paladins nor psychotic liches shall ever extinguish the dream of Goblin Liberation. The Plan must continue.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Edric O View Post
    There's only one thing I'm sure of. At the climax, when the alliance between Redcloak and Xykon finally falls apart, Redcloak yells:

    MY. NAME. IS. [Redcloak's true name that was never revealed].
    If it's "Heisenberg" I may have to face palm ...
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    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    If it's "Heisenberg" I may have to face palm ...
    My guess is Xiranomixgovort.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Edric O View Post
    There's only one thing I'm sure of. At the climax, when the alliance between Redcloak and Xykon finally falls apart, Redcloak yells:

    MY. NAME. IS. [Redcloak's true name that was never revealed].
    Also that when Xykon is finally killed, the strip title will be "Roy has 99 problems but a Lich ain't one"
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    About the only major character who hasn't fully developed is Xykon.
    A huge amount of "Start of Darkness" was developing his character.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    A huge amount of "Start of Darkness" was developing his character.
    Really? I'd argue that SoD was more about Redcloak, and that we got very little character development about Xykon at all.

    Spoiler: SoD
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    All we learned about Xykon is that

    He was evil even as a teenager
    He spent a lot of his life doing evil things
    Then he joined Redcloak
    And sometimes he is more clever than he acts

    Did I miss anything?
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  24. - Top - End - #54
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Did I miss anything?
    Coffee. Clearly the key to not only Xykon's development, but a vital clue to how the world will be saved.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Character "development" implies change. Xykon is supposed to be a largely static character (with a couple of exceptions), so he doesn't really need development. He is an established presence that other characters react to, not a dynamic and changing entity.

    In fact, a running theme in OOTS seems to be that one has to be capable of flexibility and evolution in order to survive or thrive. By being unwilling to develop, Xykon may symbolically be signing his own death warrant. If Redcloak follows the same path, he's likely doomed as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Character "development" implies change. Xykon is supposed to be a largely static character (with a couple of exceptions), so he doesn't really need development. He is an established presence that other characters react to, not a dynamic and changing entity.

    In fact, a running theme in OOTS seems to be that one has to be capable of flexibility and evolution in order to survive or thrive. By being unwilling to develop, Xykon may symbolically be signing his own death warrant. If Redcloak follows the same path, he's likely doomed as well.
    I'm not sure it's quite as simple as that. Xykon made the big decision of his life, and became a lich (i.e. evolved into one); ever since he never needed to grow in any sense to stay the single most powerful character around.
    V also made the big decision of his life, and turned into Darth V for twenty minutes. It didn't work out so hot for him.
    Further, take Redcloak: a traumatic event changed his entire outlook and from a humble little acolyte he became the leader of a terrorist organization. Other traumatic events further modified this outlook and he became ever more dangerous – as well as more of a problem for everyone else.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Is it just me, or is it possible that Jirix is the Supreme Leader, and purposely lied to Redcloak and the Goblotopians keep power? The Supreme Leader has been shown to be extremely good at lying in the past.
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    Is it just me, or is it possible that Jirix is the Supreme Leader, and purposely lied to Redcloak and the Goblotopians keep power? The Supreme Leader has been shown to be extremely good at lying in the past.
    Nup. In GDGU,

    Spoiler
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    O-Chul and the Supreme Leader have met and seen each other multiple times.


    In the comic main, O-Chul and Jirix have shown zero prior recognition, and O-Chul in fact stabs him straight through the chest. Besides, it doesn't matter if Jirix keeps power or not -- Redcloak still has like 10 levels on him.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Finale: order of events

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    In the comic main, O-Chul and Jirix have shown zero prior recognition, and O-Chul in fact stabs him straight through the chest.
    No wonder, they all look the same!
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-12-30 at 01:27 PM.

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