How OP would an Epic Bard be?

[Justyz]

Assuming he won't be mocked by his peers and used just to neutralize poison and inspire heroism via kazoo...

Can an epic bard, with mid-high level non-epic agents, can "rule the world with his mastery of narrative structures" like Tarquin has suggested?

Even if he's not evil, will he be extremely overpowered with an ability which is close to telling the future and controlling destiny itself?

We've seen bard-like very high level NPCs like Tarquin or Julio and they've used their mere knowlege of bardic tradition to great effect - controlling an empire or avoiding clashes (because being a returning mentor is an extremely high risk move).

Would a bard fully versed in this bardic lore and with epic skill would be unstoppable?

[Lord Raziere]

The problem is, narratively speaking is if you define yourself around being unstoppable, the story becomes all about whether or not that is true, and if you start doing evil things, that pushes you into the evil category and thus role of a villain, thus inclining the narrative to see you as a hubristic prideful villain who gets what is coming to them while if your a hero you might still become stoppable except the story is sad because a villain finally figured out a way to out do you by making you sacrifice yourself for some cause greater than yourself. thus being "unstoppable" is not truly unstoppable, because narrative is all about how things change, not how they stay the same. you start out unstoppable, your probably going downhill into being stoppable.

the real way to become unstoppable is to figure out a manner in which you consistently become an underdog despite your incredible bard powers. because when you start out an underdog, the only narrative way to go is up and thus progress to a win state. thus while you don't LOOK unstoppable at first, you actually are in a narrative sense because that is what makes an interesting story, see?

except then you get into Meta-narrative nonsense where because someone knows both of these facts and exploits them to consistently become an underdog and thus win by fighting upwards every time despite the advantages, so to defeat them you have to ease up on them so that they have it too good so you can arrange their permanent downfall while they are an overdog, the most vulnerable narrative position.

[nineGardens]

Would a bard fully versed in this bardic lore and with epic skill would be unstoppable?

So... not sure about D&D universes but...
have you ever read "A Practical guide to evil"?

One of the ??tagonists is "The Wandering Bard", and her powers are... significantly Epic level.

She's not a good match for D&D style Epic Bard, but she IS very much a character that leans massively on her Meta-knowledge. (Be warned, she doesn't appear to book 2 of the series, and you don't REALLY find out her jam until book... 5? Honestly, I still don't know if we know her jam.)

[deltamire]

in Tarquin's version of the world? Almost definitely, yes. If everything runs like it's supposed to, and nothing ever changes in terms of narrative convention, a high level, world-savvy bard in the OOTS universe would be an exceptionally dangerous foe.

However, we had an entire book in the form of BRITF that proves those conventions are not concrete, and to believe as such is to set yourself up for a nasty end. So they'd be exceptionally powerful, yes, but only up and until another dime-a-dozen band of misfits comes rolling up to their door and accidentally irons them out in pursuit of a completely different goal. Can't follow narrative conventions if you're basically always falling apart at the seams, plot-wise!

[Wildstag]

I think it would be difficult for a bard to continue being a bard in a scenario such as the one Tarquin is talking about. He's almost certainly a Lawful Evil kinda guy, and the example he gives is a bard using Lawful Evil methods...

Because bards are restricted to non-lawful alignments. Such a bard would not be able to progress further in the class, and would be a bard in name only.

Plus, the knowledge he's talking about is attainable through other means. Everything they are is designed to make worse leaders and better advisors.

The solely fluff aspects of the bard class' identity would make great conquerors and tyrants, but that fluff can be approximated with high enough Intelligence for surplus skill ranks spent on the various Knowledge skills.

[Dion]

Would a bard fully versed in this bardic lore and with epic skill would be unstoppable?

No hero could ever hope to have more than a one-in-a-million chance of stopping them.

[Dr.Zero]

The more the others are oblivious of the fact that they are in a story, the more the bard will be powerful.
Tarquin is not a bard, yet he has grasped quite well (according to the fact that he and his friends are ruling a whole third of a continent) the rules of the universe where he lives.
Roy is not a bard, but he understood that the universe works according to some rules and asked the opinion of someone who knows them.

If an epic bard faces Tarquin (and a team which believes him) the advantage will be almost nil.

[Riftwolf]

Tarquins belief in the power of narrative convention was deeply flawed. When the rules of storytelling worked, he exploited them. But when they didn't work, he tried to hammer the world back into the way he thought it should run (and he didn't bother learning many narratives beyond his exact situation).
An epic bard would know not every Empire is felled by an epic tale, nor does every villain face a glorious defeat. Emperors are killed by nose bleeds, or dropped tortoises, or syphilis, or any other number of ignominious ends. An epic bard would know its best to stay out of it. If they're good, they'll likely be assassinated to prove how evil the next ruler is. If they're evil, then they'll likely be assassinated to prove how grimdark and super-realistic the world is.

[Roland Itiative]

If the world worked 100% by the rules of narrative conventions, nope. Because an unstoppable hero is boring, and an unstoppable villain is unsatisfying, so by definition our bard will have to be beatable.

If the world doesn't always follow the narrative conventions, it's reaching into deconstruction territory, and thus you can theoretically have an unstoppable character (think One Punch Man), but at the same time the very idea of a bard knowing all goes out of the window, because it's purposefully breaking the normal rules here and there.

[AvatarVecna]

If we're talking mechanically, epic bards have access to the Music Of The Gods epic feat, which lets the bard's Bardic Music pierce immunity to mind-affecting. MA immunity is a fairly common immunity (several creature types are flat-out immune to it), and mind-affecting effects can be so dangerous that even those who aren't inherently immune will frequently pick up an immunity via spell or item if they can afford it. And that epic feat is one of very very few ways to get around it at all. Zombies? Automatons? Wasp swarms? Mages with impregnable minds? Actual deities? The music of an epic bard can affect them. Potentially, anyway.

[Shirow]

I wasn't sure this was on the right sub-forum but since it is a reference to Tarkin's comment I guess it is?

In Stickworld a semi-organized cabal of bards working in different courts pulling the strings from all kingdoms to keep things stable-ish could potentially rule the world, I think. No need to be that epic either, really. But it always help.

You don't really need to be lawful to work effectively within a hierarchy, specially if you can already pull rank like Lord Shojo.
As long as they don't have to be the actual heads of state, though the high charisma, proficiencies and skill set of the bard do scream nobility, high level bards are probably better than high level aristocrats at ruling/convincing others/doing intrigue.

Now, the variant Bardic Sage, Divine Bard, and Savage Bard.... might be a bit trickier to work with. The bardic sage would make an amazing right hand man, vizier or strategist.

[Quartz]

Because bards are restricted to non-lawful alignments. Such a bard would not be able to progress further in the class, and would be a bard in name only.

Is that really a problem at Epic levels? The ex-Bard can still take Bardic feats, like Music of the Gods.

[RatElemental]

Is that really a problem at Epic levels? The ex-Bard can still take Bardic feats, like Music of the Gods.

Not unless they have a second class they're high enough level in to be getting epic feats from, and at that point they're on par with literal gods so I think they're already plenty hard to stop.

[Rikmach]

See, the thing with narrative understanding is, it only works when you're *right*. See, if Narrative tropes are actual physical force of nature in a setting, exploiting them to your advantage requires identifying them correctly. That's why Tarquin, despite all his power and savvy, ultimately fails: He incorrectly identifies himself as the Big Bad of the setting, and dismisses Xykon as a lesser villain, and incorrectly identifies Elan as the protagonist and Roy as the sidekick. As a result, he keeps throwing massive resources attempting to force a storyline that's never going to happen, and finds himself foiled at every turn. So, ultimately, the bardic power is hugely dependent on you being in the right story and you having the willingness to recognize it and accept your role in it.