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2020-11-04, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-04, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Evil can attack Evil. Gaston can be hypocritical and condemn the Beast for the same actions that Gaston committed. The Beast's evilness has no bearing on Gaston's evilness in acts that are entirely unrelated to the Beast, such as paying to lock up someone to coerce her into marrying him.
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2020-11-04, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
True. Is there anyone suggesting otherwise?
The argument has been made that it was an evil act for Gaston to attack the Beast, or it was an evil act for Gaston to attack the Beast again after the Beast refrained from killing him. One such justification for Gaston doing so is that the Beast was (or would have seemed to Gaston) to be evil and dangerous.
I largely make the point you are now labouring on the previous page. I say:
I don't think there's much doubt that the Beast was villainous, even through the show didn't frame his actions that way. After all he was a beast as punishment, he did imprison first the father then the daughter. The question here is whether Gaston was also evil.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-11-04 at 09:28 PM.
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2020-11-04, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
OH! That is a nice twist. I'd say that the Beast's punishment was simply karmic justice, but given modern norms imposing the curse on his entire household (and possibly a supporting serf/peasant population?) is pretty evil. I wonder if this is a case of morality dissonance, where commoners in the time the folktale originated weren't really thought of as individuals with rights and moral agency separate from their lords?
As a general rule, I do. However, in specific instances, I think the subtext can be so clear that most reasonable people wouldn't disagree on what the subtext is. And in this particular case, it seemed in your response to Rodin that people would have to try very, very hard to not notice the subtext based on the script of that scene as written.
I'd also have to accept that arranging someone's false imprisonment, to coerce an attractive girl into sex is not especially heroic. How do you think it compares to the Beast imprisoning Belle for similar reasons?
In an alternate movie where Gaston lived, I wouldn't consider him any more or less capable of redemption than the Beast. The important distinction is that the Beast began talking small, halting steps along the path early in the movie, whereas Gaston never indicated any sort of self-awareness or the desire to better than he was.
As the guy making that argument, I will say that my focus is more on the "dangerous" because I'm very leery of the idea of slaying things that are Evil purely because they are abstractly "Evil." To me, persecuting/prosecuting/executing someone isn't about exterminating evil--it's about containing, controlling, punishing, or preventing certain actions--or the willingness to make certain actions--that are harmful, morally or otherwise.
Another important factor is how Gaston concluded Beast was evil in the first place. Gaston isn't privy to Beast's backstory--he only knows bits of it. Of those bits he knows, those who show the Beast's villainous side also happen to be actions that Gaston condones, i.e. imprisoning someone in order to get Belle. Other than the fact that the Beast did evil things that Gaston actually condones, the only evidence that the Beast is evil is the fact that he doesn't look human. That is all. Everything that Gaston claims--i.e., that the Beast will attack the town--comes from zero specific evidence. Actually, it's worse than that--it specifically goes against the only evidence he has, Belle's testimony. To me, that's already a huge black mark against Gaston. Add in what Rodin and others have added--that Gaston has no reason to believe that Beast is dangerous, but has one very obvious reason to pretend to believe that he is, and your whole "Gaston is good/neutral because he's slaying Evil" argument already starts to crumble.
In that context, you get to the Beast sparing Gaston. At that point, I find it difficult to believe that Gaston ever truly thought Beast was a threat to begin with, but if you interpret the evidence as favorably to Gaston as possible, we can argue that Gaston was a well-meaning extremist acting on fear and bad information. At that point, the Beast shows him mercy--this is towards the end of a protracted battle where Beast and his household were consistently allowing the mob to retreat, even when lethal force would arguably be more effective. At this point, even a misguided, well-intentioned extreme would have to--at the very least--stop trying to murder the guy who spared him in order to take a beat and reconsider his conclusions.
Because to me, any person--fictitious, or otherwise--who decides on flimsy evidence that a certain person or group of people is dangerous and needs to die, and then refuses to entertain any evidence to the contrary--well, he's basically indistinguishable from a dangerous, evil murderer, isn't he? As a general rule, I am a firm believer that motive is relevant to morality. However, if you've got someone who convinces himself that you need to die and refuses to consider his conclusions, well, at that point is there even a reason to split hairs? At some point, Willfully Stupid becomes indistinguishable from Evil.Last edited by Xyril; 2020-11-04 at 09:54 PM.
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2020-11-04, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Yes. You.
You are not claiming it, or stating it, but since you asked if anyone was suggesting it, well, your arguments and questions were primed to elicit that suggestion.
The punishment was for not letting a stranger in their home during a storm. On the scale of Evilness, that hardly ranks at all. And the punishment is wildly disproportional.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-04 at 09:37 PM.
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2020-11-04, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
We'll have to agree or disagree on that them. I suppose if we were to look at it through a real life lens, his motivation was probably multi-factorial.
Unfavorably, if only to the extent that the Beast seems mildly more self-aware of the fact that he was being the bad guy. That was the point. As a human, the Beast was straddling the line between Neutral Jerk and straight up Evil. After the curse, without even the slightest moderating influence of human contact outside of his castle, he got worse. And this is just me reading subtext, but the fact that let Maurice go in exchange for Belle seems to imply that there might have been other lost travelers, without the benefit of a beautiful, adventurous daughter, who died in the Beasts dungeons. At the very least, Beast seems more than willing to impose such disproportionate retribution given the provocation. That is enough to speak to his character, which was more or less Tragic Villain before Belle came along. The story is his redemption arc, which worked because deep down, he wanted redemption, and he had multiple people in his life who wanted that for him as well.
In an alternate movie where Gaston lived, I wouldn't consider him any more or less capable of redemption than the Beast. The important distinction is that the Beast began talking small, halting steps along the path early in the movie, whereas Gaston never indicated any sort of self-awareness or the desire to better than he was.Spoiler: Peelee disclaimerNot saying that the beast being evil necessarily means Gaston was not.
I did reply to your earlier post. You may have missed it because I edited it into another post, which you had already replied to. No obligation to read or reply, just thought I'd let you know it was there.
What question was primed to suggest that because (or if) the beast was evil, then Gaston could not be (except for the Beast's evil being a possible justification for Gaston attacking it)? Is it possible that because you joined a conversation midway you are taking something out of context.
The punishment was for not letting a stranger in their home during a storm. On the scale of Evilness, that hardly ranks at all. And the punishment is wildly disproportional.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-11-04 at 09:45 PM.
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2020-11-04, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Apropos of nothing, but it would greatly amuse me if more things had a Peelee disclaimer.
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2020-11-04, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-04, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Just because I did not engage in the conversation until I did does not mean that I was not reading the conversation the entire time.
Enchantress comes to his castle in a storm and asks for refuge. He refuses. She places the curse upon the entire castle, which will become permanent on his 21st birthday. She curses an entire staff because of the (very annoying to the enchantress, but fairly mild overall) action of a single person.
Who, it should be noted, was all of ten years old at the time.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-11-04, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
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2020-11-04, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-04 at 10:00 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-11-04, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Righto, well to clear up any interpretation of subtext to the contrary, I only see or saw the Beast's evilness as relevant to whether Gaston had any justification to attack him for being an evil threat to the village.
First came up in post 34 where I said "We are using DnD alignment here, and it is a staple of DnD alignment that killing apparently evil monsters is good.".
Xyril, I took your reference in post 53 to "so the burden of proof is on you to define "threat" in such a way that isn't "anybody who is stronger than me and who I don't like" to suggest that Gaston had no more reason to be worried about the Beast than him being strong and unlikeable". To be clear the Beast's evil actions up to that point are an additional factor to be taken into account when assessing its threat.
I probably could've linked it together better, but my posts already tend to be on the long side and I didn't realise that wasn't very clear.
Enchantress comes to his castle in a storm and asks for refuge. He refuses. She places the curse upon the entire castle, which will become permanent on his 21st birthday. She curses an entire staff because of the (very annoying to the enchantress, but fairly mild overall) action of a single person.
Who, it should be noted, was all of ten years old at the time.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-11-04 at 10:07 PM.
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2020-11-04, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
That is incredibly edition-dependent, though, and has not been a staple of D&D alignment in updated editions for nearly two decades now.
Indeed, though there are the differences of a grown man with a person he knows in a much more potentially deadly weather condition.
Regardless, though, Enchantress was a huge jerk.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-11-04, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Ah, fair point. In my defense, this was your response
I don't think there's much doubt that the Beast was villainous, even through the show didn't frame his actions that way. After all he was a beast as punishment, he did imprison first the father then the daughter.
Talking about Gaston's justifications for killing Beast, I was expecting you to cite only evidence that Gaston had access to. The fact that you cited evidence not known to him threw me for a loop, so I thought you were trying to make a different point.Last edited by Xyril; 2020-11-04 at 10:15 PM.
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2020-11-04, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Actually, if you crunch the numbers the prince was eleven when he was cursed.
Thus, I think it's very fair to call that fairy/sorceress Chaotic Evil. She goes up to a castle, and the eleven-year-old with no parents in sight refuses to let her in (more than reasonable, IMHO). Keep in mind, she was in disguise, so there's no way he could have recognized her as a trustworthy person even if she was. Then she doffs her disguise, and he apologizes... at which point she curses him and every single servant in the castle, plus all their kids. And not just any curse, a curse that will automatically kill him after a few years.
That's not just chaotic evil, that's extremely chaotic evil.Originally Posted by Darths & DroidsOptimization Trophies
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2020-11-04, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Yeah - that was one of the things which the live-action version kinda fixed. They made him quite a bit older - plus they had a magical memory wipe to explain why the town didn't remember a castle being there.
Enchantress was still CN at best in the live-action (chip's transformation probably still pushes it to CE), but at least the beast wasn't a kid when transformed.Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2020-11-04 at 11:48 PM.
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2020-11-05, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Refusing her shelter during a storm would be considered a very bad act, not something minor.
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2020-11-05, 02:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-11-05 at 02:31 AM.
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2020-11-05, 02:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Is it? So those editions were contemporaneous with the movie?
Surely in modern editions it is good to at least oppose an apparently evil monster (note I am not talking about assuming its evil because it is a monster - as I think you've agreed he is evil on his merits)?
Indeed, though there are the differences of a grown man with a person he knows in a much more potentially deadly weather condition.
Regardless, though, Enchantress was a huge jerk.
I agree he wouldn't have known about the curse. There would be two reasons why Gaston might thing the Beast evil - an assumption because he's a monster, and knowing he kidnaped Belle and Maurice.
Whether an assumption based on him being a beast is a good reason depends on the universe - see my earlier comments on this being a fair assumption on early DnD editions, but not later. But the Beast's kidnapping seems a reasonable basis either way.
To be fair, the idea of chaotic evil is a DnD construct, so it is fair to analyse through that lens.
Yet when Gaston was informed of this, he had the old man thrown out into the snow and made no attempt to rescue the girl. Indeed, by the time he did decide to move against the beast, the girl had been released and had told Gaston that the beast was not a threat.
This exchange takes place immediately after Gaston has attempted to blackmail Belle into marrying him by having her father wrongfully imprisoned, an act even the corrupt asylum warden called despicable. It's only after realizing that the Beast is a rival for Belle's affections that he begins to stir up the villagers with a false narrative about the threat the Beast poses.
But I think it's reasonable to not take Belle's word for it that he would never hurt anyone. That Belle happened to become fond of the Beast (whether it's stockholm syndrome or not) doesn't change the fact that he'd kidnapped her and one other person - and so would appear a threat.
See the above exchange between Gaston and Belle
Can I ask though, from your quoting of the exchange, what did Gaston say before learning about Belle's feelings that prompted Belle to respond "Oh, no, no. He'd never hurt anyone."?
Others in this thread have given examples to refresh your memory.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-11-05 at 03:01 AM.
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2020-11-05, 02:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Gaston's "concern for Belle & Maurice" wasn't a factor when Maurice came to him, begging for help to get Belle free.
Indeed, Gaston tried to have Maurice imprisoned, illegitimately, himself - by the asylum keeper.
It's blatant in the movie that Gaston is a textbook narcissist.Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-11-05 at 02:51 AM.
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2020-11-05, 03:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
They turn on Scar after Scar verbally tries to throw them under the bus in exchange for his life. So really, he turned on them first.
That's a modernism. The Laws of Hospitality used to be sacred, and being punished for violating them by divine or supernatural beings is a really common thing in mythology. Beauty and the Beast is a really really old story, so it is not surprising that somethings don't match up to more modern sensibilities.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
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2020-11-05, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Sure it is. All the traits covered under Narcissistic Personality Disorder tend to correlate to evil alignment in D&D - extreme selfishness, extreme lack of empathy, and so on and so forth.
The "violation of sacred hospitality" bit wasn't in the classic Villeneuve story, and was a change that later adaptations made.
Even then, the main reason it's portrayed as so bad, is usually "turning someone away into a storm puts them in danger" not just "hospitality is always sacred".
The point is that any "The beast is a threat because he imprisons people unjustly" thoughts on Gaston's part would be epic hypocrisy when he tried to do exactly the same thing, for much more nefarious motives - the desire to coerce Belle into marrying him and having his children.
Morally speaking, Gaston is a would-be rapist. If you've coerced someone into having sex with you, it's rape.Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-11-05 at 03:30 AM.
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2020-11-05, 03:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
I thought you were using 'narcissism' colloquially. I'm not sure about the idea of a disorder making someone evil.
Anyway, i don't believe that "all the traits covered... correlate to evil". According to Mayo clinic, heres the traits:
- Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance
- Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration
- Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
- Exaggerate achievements and talents
- Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
- Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people
- Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior
- Expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations
- Take advantage of others to get what they want
- Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
- Be envious of others and believe others envy them
- Behave in an arrogant or haughty manner, coming across as conceited, boastful and pretentious
- Insist on having the best of everything for instance, the best car or office
While those are largely unlikeable traits, I don't agree that all (or even most) are evil. There's maybe a couple that seem pretty close to what one might describe as evil.
The point is that any "The beast is a threat because he imprisons people unjustly" thoughts on Gaston's part would be epic hypocrisy when he tried to do exactly the same thing, for much more nefarious motives - the desire to coerce Belle into marrying him and having his children.
Morally speaking, Gaston is a would-be rapist. If you've coerced someone into having sex with you, it's rape.
But I don't accept that this somehow renders his good acts evil as well. Fair enough if it is your opinion that Gaston's locking up of Maurice outweighed any good he did (or sought to do) such that he still comes out as evil. But, in my opinion, it is not fair to say that Gaston's attempt to stave off a danger to the village (and I recognise that some people don't think this was his true intent) was not a good thing of itself because he had done evil earlier in the movie.
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2020-11-05, 03:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Besides, sacred hospitality doesn't even come into things unless the person is a guest. There's an argument to be made that the sorceress was a guest just by being in his kingdom, but I think think the situation better falls under "it was his duty to help her because she was (to the best of his knowledge) his subject" (there's probably a snappier name for that).
And had the prince been an adult or even a teenager, I would say that refusing her hospitality is thus an evil act. But he was a child. Firstly, it's not really fair to hold a child to the same standards of duty. And secondly, being a child makes for a different dynamic between the two. It's one thing for a prince to refuse hospitality to a mysterious stranger. It's another thing entirely for a kid to not let a creepy stranger offering strange deals into his home when his parents aren't around. One of those is foolish, short-sighted, and a breech of duty. The other should be standard operating procedure. I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.
Imprisoning Belle's dad was an evil act, by my reckoning. However, I'm unwilling to condemn the beast as evil for a single evil act, especially since there are a lot of mitigating circumstances (not least, what happened the last time a mysterious stranger sought shelter from him probably left an emotional impact crater). We can infer from the servants' good cheer even after being stuck with him for 10 years that he's not a bad boss, and his behavior through the rest of the film (saving Belle, letting her leave when she asks, working on being a better host, sparing Gaston) is at the least not evil either. I'd be comfortable labelling him as Neutral on the morality axis; plenty of good traits, and some bad ones, though he seems to have mostly gotten over those by the end of the film.Originally Posted by Darths & DroidsOptimization Trophies
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2020-11-05, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-11-05 at 03:59 AM.
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2020-11-05, 04:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
If you applied the same lens to Gaston would you also come up neutral? If not, how would you distinguish between the two?
As Hamisphance pointed out, the main evil act of both the Beast and Gaston was similar - to kidnap Maurice/Belle because they wanted Belle.
No it doesn't
If a person has assaulted someone, it doesn't mean they should never stop another person from being assaulted. If they've stolen something, it doesn't mean they should never try and stop another theft.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-11-05 at 04:03 AM.
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2020-11-05, 04:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Nope - that's not quite what I said.
Beast didn't "kidnap Maurice because he wanted Belle."
He imprisoned him for trespassing because he was grumpy and hated trespassers. Slightly disproportionate, but only slightly.
The, when Belle offered a trade, he accepted, but that's not the same thing as "he imprisoned Maurice because he wanted Belle"Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-11-05 at 04:06 AM.
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2020-11-05, 04:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
No, Gaston imprisoned Maurice because he wanted Belle. The Beast imprisoned Belle for that reason
I may be misremembering, but didn't the Beast say he was unwilling to let Belle go because he desired her.
Are you saying that imprisoning Maurice was worse than imprisoning Belle? Why, because he's a third party?
One could say the Beast was worse because he imprisoned Belle because he desired her AND imprisoned Maurice to avenge the trespass.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-11-05 at 04:09 AM.
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2020-11-05, 04:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?
Maurice didn't "volunteer to be imprisoned". Belle did. That made what was done to Belle somewhat less bad than what was done to Maurice.
"desiring Belle" didn't really enter into The Beast's motives for agreeing to the trade, either. Breaking the spell did. When she made the offer, Beast had no real interest in her, just in getting the spell broken.
Over time - he fell in love with her - and that was what convinced him that he'd have to free her - no relationship can function viably with any element of coercion in it.
But if a thief claims that they are "attempting to stop a theft because theft is morally wrong" then they are, self-evidently, lying.Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-11-05 at 04:15 AM.
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