New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 121 to 150 of 196
  1. - Top - End - #121
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Why am I here?

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    An aside: How evil is Maurice? I may be misremembering a different scene in the movie, but doesn't his wood-chopping invention endanger some people? How justifiable is the case that Maurice is a legitimate public menace with his contraptions?
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  2. - Top - End - #122
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Since we've discussed, to some degree, most of Disney's lead villains, what about Ursula and Dr. Facilier, two names I haven't seen discussed yet?


    Ursula's probably a solid candidate for Lawful Evil with her penchant for dealing, though if she sets up everyone she bargains with to fail like Ariel instead of just charging a harsh price, it's a far more Chaotic sort of approach since the "deals" were made in false faith to begin with.


    Facilier feels like a better candidate for being Lawful, or Neutral at best. He also makes deals, but is more up-front about the dark costs and seems to prefer 'twisting' the wishes into Technical Genie territory rather than outright sabotaging their success.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2020-11-05 at 05:04 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    A bad example, as Buckingham Palace is in a city, where things are much different. The city itself has facilities for travelers. An even worse example because the rich have never been obligated to follow the rules of everyone else. It's why the rich getting punished for being bad hosts is very popular when they are forced to follow the rules by someone even more powerful. To make the example the absolute worst, royalty is what? 0.001% of a population? The royalty participating in a system or not isn't really proof of a widespread belief in hospitality.


    But I feel like we're getting off topic here. Going way back to my original point, the idea of being punished for being a bad host (or more rarely guest), is an ancient trope. That being seen as disproportionate is a relatively modern idea. Even today the expectation of being a good host is still very prevalent, though it is not extended to complete strangers.
    So it's different for the rich, and Adam was rich, but he was still beholden to it and issues with it are modernism despite it being a modernized tale.

    Im not so sure that's a terribly strong argument.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  4. - Top - End - #124
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    An aside: How evil is Maurice? I may be misremembering a different scene in the movie, but doesn't his wood-chopping invention endanger some people? How justifiable is the case that Maurice is a legitimate public menace with his contraptions?
    The only times the woodchopper is seen in use, are at his house (when only him and Belle are there) and during Chip's rescue of them.

    As far as I can tell, no townsfolk are seen being menaced by one of Maurice's contraptions.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The only times the woodchopper is seen in use, are at his house (when only him and Belle are there) and during Chip's rescue of them.

    As far as I can tell, no townsfolk are seen being menaced by one of Maurice's contraptions.
    I watched it a couple nights ago (because of this thread and because it's the best Disney movie ever made) and can confirm this. There's no indication the townsfolk feel threatened by him either - even the asylum keeper describes him as harmless. Maurice is just the kooky old dude who lives at the edge of town and occasionally blows up his own basement.

  6. - Top - End - #126
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post

    I think Jafar from Aladdin, while he fits too, has been discussed already - though maybe it's not clear where he falls on the Law/Chaos axis.
    Honestly, Jafar seems like a straight up villain regardless of Jasmine. It's been a while since I've seen the animated version, but in the Will Smith remake it seemed like his interest in Jasmine was almost entirely as a means of legitimizing his takeover, without any real romantic/sexual component. Above all, Jafar's goal was to have nominal to match the practical power he was already wielding, as well as the recognition and legitimacy that would bring. The most obvious means to achieve that goal was to manipulate the Sultan into letting him marry Jasmine forcing Jasmine to marry him, while keeping in place the laws/norms that prevent a woman from becoming a queen regent--then, by default, her husband would be the next sultan regent, with all the status and respect that confers.

    I'm still largely on Gaston being evil, but after talking with liquorbox I think there might be room to interpret him as being possibly neutral/jerk. More importantly, in the arc of the movie, he's set up primarily as an (unattractive) romantic rival first, while slowly revealing his more villainous aspects. Both aspects of his character are indispensable to the plot. In contrast, if you removed the whole "marrying Jasmine" part, and had Jafar instead try to take (overt) power by manipulating the Sultan into naming him Jasmine's regent, or abdicating the throne and naming Jafar his heir in spite of tradition, or any of a number of other options, and the rest of the plot could have continued as it was with no other alterations.

  7. - Top - End - #127
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Since we've discussed, to some degree, most of Disney's lead villains, what about Ursula and Dr. Facilier, two names I haven't seen discussed yet?


    Ursula's probably a solid candidate for Lawful Evil with her penchant for dealing, though if she sets up everyone she bargains with to fail like Ariel instead of just charging a harsh price, it's a far more Chaotic sort of approach since the "deals" were made in false faith to begin with.


    Facilier feels like a better candidate for being Lawful, or Neutral at best. He also makes deals, but is more up-front about the dark costs and seems to prefer 'twisting' the wishes into Technical Genie territory rather than outright sabotaging their success.
    Ursula seems Lawful or neutral to me. Engages in bargains, wants to be Queen, embraces hierarchy. I think she is Evil, and just lawful.

    Facilier's name is a pun on facilitate, he's like an evil genie who gets his in the end. I would put him at very Lawful.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  8. - Top - End - #128
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    There are heaps of examples in media where someone carried out some naughty action, and redeemed themself by turning and stopping others from doing similar sorts of naughtiness. There are examples in real life too (although maybe not within such a short timeframe).
    What's missing in Gaston's case is any clear indication of self-awareness, remorse, the desire to make amends, or a situational where his newly found morality is applied in a non-self-serving way.

    I love a good redemption story. One of my favorite semi-obscure comics was Human Target, about an assassin who reforms and becomes a highly capable bodyguard. I find his redemption arc believable--unlike Gaston's--largely because of those elements.

    Self-awareness:
    Chance, the hero of Human Target, was essentially raised by assassins, who made killing seem normalized. As he gained exposure to the rest of the world, and especially after he reformed, he never denied that what used to be normal for him was morally wrong. Instead of using his upbringing (without which, he arguably never would have become a cold-blooded killer) to somehow justify or excuse his past actions, he never tries to deny that his past acts were evil.

    In contrast, Gaston is the poster child for lack of self-awareness.

    Remorse:
    Chance clearly feels remorse. He's encountered the damage left by his past sins on a few occasions, and it clearly haunts him. The whole reason he turned was because he fell in love with one of his targets--until that point, he tried really hard to be willfully blind to the fact that his targets were people, with hopes and dreams, who loved others and were loved in return. Without this event shattering his wall of denial, he never would have reformed--and even if he did, I would find it hard to think he was sincere.

    Meanwhile, Gaston doesn't say or do anything that indicate any sort of internal moral conflict or regret.

    Amends:
    Chance's entire life becomes about saving lives to make up for the ones he took, knowing that no matter how many he saved he could never truly balance the scales. On top of that, he often tries (with little success) to reform other assassins who were once like him.

    Meanwhile, Gaston does nothing to address his evil acts. Even if--for the sake of argument--we assume that Gaston had pure motives for locking Maurice up, the minute he saw the Beast in the mirror, he knew Maurice wasn't crazy. So did he immediately run to have him freed? No. Did he, at the very least, say "Oh my God, I've locked up an innocent man!" Nope. Instead, he immediately moves on to Plan B for getting Belle.

    Selfless Change in Morality:
    Chance becomes an elite bodyguard who does his job by inserting himself into the target's life (even impersonating him sometimes) to draw the assassin out. It's very dangerous work. Also, because he doesn't believe that wealth should determine whether you deserve to live, he charges a straight-up percentage of your wealth for his services--and he takes on enough poor or working class clients that he's not exactly getting rich off his calling. In contrast, if Chance had never decided that "murder is wrong," and stayed in his old job, he'd be much safer and wealthier. Heck, if he decided on a more neutral stance, and decided to be an elite bodyguard to the rich, he'd also be wealthier. Instead, his newly realigned moral compass extracts a real personal cost, rather than benefiting him.

    In contrast, as I've already discussed, Gaston's alleged "change of heart" is entirely self-serving. Condemning the Beasts as evil serves to rally his lynch mob, and gives him moral cover for eliminating a romantic rival. If he had really reached some sort of moral epiphany, it would also apply to reexamining his own actions, no matter how inconvenient they may be.

    If the writers had intended a Gaston redemption arc, it would have taken no more than 30 seconds to add a brief scene where he frees Maurice and apologizes, maybe turns out the asylum guard who took the bribe, and offers to surrender himself for trial after the "threat" of the Beast is dealt with. Or they could have peppered varying existing scenes with subtle hints about his internal conflictedness. Such elements are conspicuously absent.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2020-11-05 at 05:55 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #129
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I watched it a couple nights ago (because of this thread and because it's the best Disney movie ever made)
    *ahem*

    If you want to get all technical on "made by Disney", then I'd link you to Rogue One instead. If you insist on one made under the direct Disney banner, then Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl (the rest of the series beating it into the ground doesn't kill how good that first one was). And if you want to go all-in and insist on traditional "Disney princess"-type movie, then Moana takes the crown.

    Though my wife would agree with you, so there's that.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  10. - Top - End - #130
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So it's different for the rich, and Adam was rich, but he was still beholden to it and issues with it are modernism despite it being a modernized tale.

    Im not so sure that's a terribly strong argument.
    My argument that issues with Adam's punishment are from modernism and that the trope of a rich/powerful person being cursed by a supernatural being for being rude in some way is a classic idea that has existed for a lot longer than beauty and the beast has.

    It has nothing to do with how wealthy aristocrats didn't have to follow the Law of Hospitality or how wide spread the Law of Hospitality actually was back than.

    The tale was modernized (everything involving Gaston for example was added in), but just because parts of it were added in or changed doesn't mean the story's roots suddenly change. There will still be parts of it that are more aligned with older values than modern ones.

    If you are going to prove my argument wrong, than I suppose you should look to proving that the Beast's punishment was always seen as disproportionate and that he was unfairly cursed.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  11. - Top - End - #131
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    My argument that issues with Adam's punishment are from modernism
    And my rebuttal is that Disneyfied movies are explicitly modernized takes. To quote the great Jack McCoy, if you play stickball in Canarsie, you better learn Brooklyn rules. Modernized versions mean modernized criticisms are valid. There's a reason Sleeping Beauty isn't pregnant when she wakes up on the silver screen.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-05 at 08:07 PM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  12. - Top - End - #132
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The punishment was for not letting a stranger in their home during a storm. On the scale of Evilness, that hardly ranks at all. And the punishment is wildly disproportional.
    Actually, I think he completely deserved it.

    If there was a storm, as the lightning and the clouds suggest, then the stranger could have been crushed by a tree, drowned while trying to pass a stream, suffocated by a mudslide, killed by a rockslide, she could have fallen down a hillside to her death, lost the trail, contracted pneumonia, lost or ruined her possessions, among which food, and be forced to walk for maybe days without eating...

    The narrator says that it was in winter, so the prince was likely sending her to freeze to death in the night, or to be devoured by wolves, or to lose her toes to the cold. He literally was a prince, and could have had someone guard her, if need be. And she was an old woman, alone and poor, while he was a young and rich prince with a house full of men at his orders, so, in practice, the strong refusing the responsibility to protect the weak (while being a prince, so on his way to be a ruler, too!).

    Plus, law of hospitality.

    Pity for his household, however. But I suspect that the lesson wasn't "household people don't count as their own", more like "if the ruler screws up, all of his men will be toast with him". And there might have been an element of wishful thinking in this, that the peasants wouldn't be the only one to suffer and the ruler would also suffer with them if he screwed up. Or maybe it was a story to show young princes how the ideal prince acts and what his opposite is. Or, it could be an overlong story to inculcate the fact that hospitality is sacred.

    More importantly, the cursed household is a representative of a typical Disney trope: that the king (or the hero) must come and mend his broken kingdom. The kingdom was cursed (or is dying) because of an unjust ruler. In the Lion King, the unjust ruler is Scar, the king is Simba. In B&B, it's the same person with and without moral compass: the unjust ruler is Unjust Prince, the healer king is Just Prince.
    Last edited by Vinyadan; 2020-11-05 at 09:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  13. - Top - End - #133
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Actually, I think he completely deserved it.

    If there was a storm, as the lightning and the clouds suggest, then the stranger could have been crushed by a tree, drowned while trying to pass a stream, suffocated by a mudslide, killed by a rockslide, she could have fallen down a hillside to her death, lost the trail, contracted pneumonia, lost or ruined her possessions, among which food, and be forced to walk for maybe days without eating...
    Similarly, any hitchhiker on the road could be run over by a car whose driver is not paying attention, trip and fall into the road and be run over by someone who cannot stop in time, trip and fall over into the road and be safe but cause a major pileup when the driver swerves to avoid them, be caught in a storm in which any of your things may happen, .... So everyone who does not pick up any hitchhiker is deserves to be cursed as the Adam was. By that logic.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  14. - Top - End - #134
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Similarly, any hitchhiker on the road could be run over by a car whose driver is not paying attention, trip and fall into the road and be run over by someone who cannot stop in time, trip and fall over into the road and be safe but cause a major pileup when the driver swerves to avoid them, be caught in a storm in which any of your things may happen, .... So everyone who does not pick up any hitchhiker is deserves to be cursed as the Adam was. By that logic.
    That's not really comparable, because we live in very different times today. It was normal to band together with others when you were travelling, because it made you safer. Not everyone could afford a horse, which made travel times were way longer, so asking for hospitality along the way was normal. Instead, a hitchhiker is doing something often illegal and generally unusual, and you can easily call the cops on him to get him to safety, whether you believe that he chose to hitchhik or not.

    Add that you could be afraid of an hitchhiker. You are alone, or with few people, or with your family, and the hitchhiker could be armed. The Beast, instead, had no reason to fear for his safety, since he had ample space and many men at his service.

    I have made a short research, and it appears that the US do not have a duty to rescue law, and that there are very limited cases where a state requires you to help, so there might be a huge cultural difference when it comes to this matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  15. - Top - End - #135
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    That's not really comparable, because we live in very different times today. It was normal to band together with others when you were travelling, because it made you safer. Not everyone could afford a horse, which made travel times were way longer, so asking for hospitality along the way was normal. Instead, a hitchhiker is doing something often illegal and generally unusual, and you can easily call the cops on him to get him to safety, whether you believe that he chose to hitchhik or not.

    Add that you could be afraid of an hitchhiker. You are alone, or with few people, or with your family, and the hitchhiker could be armed. The Beast, instead, had no reason to fear for his safety, since he had ample space and many men at his service.

    I have made a short research, and it appears that the US do not have a duty to rescue law, and that there are very limited cases where a state requires you to help, so there might be a huge cultural difference when it comes to this matter.
    Again, the cultural "law of hospitality" was an ancient Greek/ancient Roman invention, and had some semblances still in place in medieval Europe (at the absolute latest 15th century), with no indication it was still around 300 years later.

    Even if the "law of hospitality" was a thing (which there has been no evidence of), he was still a prince, and thus not subject to it.

    Even if he was, he still had ample reason to fear for his safety - that ample reason being he was 10 years old.

    The punishment did not fit the crime. That may have been seen differently two thousand years ago when the "law of hospitality" was actually in full effect, but 18th century France is not 1st century Greece and a prince in a castle is not a commoner in a cottage.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-05 at 10:10 PM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  16. - Top - End - #136
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Charlottesville
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Gaston vs Beast

    Just look at their responses to rejection. Gaston thinks there's something wrong with her and she should change to fit his desires. Beast figures out there's something wrong with him and changes to be a better person.
    Tali avatar by the talented Thormag.

  17. - Top - End - #137
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    Gaston vs Beast

    Just look at their responses to rejection. Gaston thinks there's something wrong with her and she should change to fit his desires. Beast figures out there's something wrong with him and changes to be a better person.
    Apropos of nothing, but I saw your signature mention an avatar and wanted to let you know it's not showing. Just in case it's cached and is showing on your end and you don't know.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-05 at 10:29 PM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  18. - Top - End - #138
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And my rebuttal is that Disneyfied movies are explicitly modernized takes. To quote the great Jack McCoy, if you play stickball in Canarsie, you better learn Brooklyn rules. Modernized versions mean modernized criticisms are valid. There's a reason Sleeping Beauty isn't pregnant when she wakes up on the silver screen.
    That's true, but I suppose my response to that criticism is that they didn't do a perfect job of modernizing it. There are still hold outs from older times when the story was first told and its own inspirations.

    Basically the curse is meant to be justified. And judged by older standards, it was.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  19. - Top - End - #139
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Charlottesville
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Apropos of nothing, but I saw your signature mention an avatar and wanted to let you know it's not showing. Just in case it's cached and is showing on your end and you don't know.
    Ohno, my Tali avatar...
    Tali avatar by the talented Thormag.

  20. - Top - End - #140
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    *ahem*

    If you want to get all technical on "made by Disney", then I'd link you to Rogue One instead. If you insist on one made under the direct Disney banner, then Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl (the rest of the series beating it into the ground doesn't kill how good that first one was). And if you want to go all-in and insist on traditional "Disney princess"-type movie, then Moana takes the crown.

    Though my wife would agree with you, so there's that.
    Yeah, the first definitely doesn't count as Disney had nothing to do with the making of Star Wars. If Disney went out of business tomorrow (or was broken up or whatever) then the old Disney animated movies would still be "Disney movies" no matter who ultimately wound up with the rights to them. I don't even consider it being technical - Disney had nothing to do with the movie for 40 odd years, ergo it is not a Disney movie. The only way there's Disney version of A New Hope is if they use the rights to author a remake.

    Pirates of the Caribbean was a classic, but it's not in the same league. Rogue One has far too much wrong with it to even enter the discussion; it's half a good movie. It's "post-OT Star Wars good", which is a very low bar indeed.

    Moana and possibly Lion King are the only real contenders in my book. Beauty and the Beast is probably winning on pure nostalgia since I was the right age to be deeply affected by it when it came out.

    I've never seen Mulan, as I had aged out of Disney movies and was too young to say "screw demographics, I'll watch princess movies if I want to". I should correct that.

  21. - Top - End - #141
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Yeah, the first definitely doesn't count as Disney had nothing to do with the making of Star Wars. If Disney went out of business tomorrow (or was broken up or whatever) then the old Disney animated movies would still be "Disney movies" no matter who ultimately wound up with the rights to them. I don't even consider it being technical - Disney had nothing to do with the movie for 40 odd years, ergo it is not a Disney movie. The only way there's Disney version of A New Hope is if they use the rights to author a remake.
    Well, here's the thing: I think I'm funny.

    Although, there is a version that was solely done by Disney, where the Han Solo/Greedo scene is altered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Pirates of the Caribbean was a classic, but it's not in the same league.
    They took a ride with no story and made it into a behemoth franchise. Even if only the first one was good, it's still damned impressive. And the first one was very, very good. I disagree about it not being in the same league. Though this was also mostly because I think I'm funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Rogue One has far too much wrong with it to even enter the discussion; it's half a good movie. It's "post-OT Star Wars good", which is a very low bar indeed.
    Me like Star War.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Moana and possibly Lion King are the only real contenders in my book. Beauty and the Beast is probably winning on pure nostalgia since I was the right age to be deeply affected by it when it came out.
    Moana is my favorite because there's no villain in the traditional sense. There's no overarching person Moana has to defeat. Her quest is entirely about herself, figuring out who she is, and gaining more confidence and personal strength. It's beautiful.

    And the fact that I love beaches and oceans and water is just a cherry on top.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  22. - Top - End - #142
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Again, the cultural "law of hospitality" was an ancient Greek/ancient Roman invention, and had some semblances still in place in medieval Europe (at the absolute latest 15th century), with no indication it was still around 300 years later.

    Even if the "law of hospitality" was a thing (which there has been no evidence of), he was still a prince, and thus not subject to it.

    Even if he was, he still had ample reason to fear for his safety - that ample reason being he was 10 years old.

    The punishment did not fit the crime. That may have been seen differently two thousand years ago when the "law of hospitality" was actually in full effect, but 18th century France is not 1st century Greece and a prince in a castle is not a commoner in a cottage.
    First, I think you are wrong in pinpointing too precise a historical time to this tale. The opening scene is set hundreds of years earlier than the following ones: see the prince wearing leg armour, and, in the first image he's in, an overcoat from the late XV century. And yet, in the following scenes, he seems to live in the XVIII century. Time in general doesn't work as normal in this film. It's also why the prince isn't a child when he opens the door (he definitely doesn't look like one to me in the opening scene), in spite of what logic would require. So I wouldn't go beyond "post-Roman, pre-Industrial".

    Second, if you choose a historical time and you want to follow historical laws, then the idea that a 10 year old prince had the power to choose who was allowed in his castle doesn't work, because a caretaker would have been taking decisions for him.

    Third, hospitality law existed after the Classical age. You can check Charlemagne's Capitularies from 802, 2.27 (you can also check Arab and Bedouin cultures, if you have a general interest). I don't see why a prince wouldn't have been subjected to it. Beyond the law, the moral duty persisted in later times, too, for reasons that I cannot explain in this board, although the development of economical activities revolving around hospitality made the requests less frequent after the XIII century.

    Fourth, sending the beggar away in a winter night when his castle was located in the middle of a forest was similar to a captain who screams "wow, you're ugly!" and doesn't let aboard someone in need on the high seas.

    So, in my opinion, it was a very evil thing to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  23. - Top - End - #143
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    It's also comparable to Frollo trying to drown Quasimodo as a baby in Hunchback of Notre Dame. An authority figure with a duty of care to those less fortunate than them rejecting that duty of care on superficial grounds.

    Granted in Frollo's case his intention was to outright murder Quasi, while the prince merely didn't care if the enchantress froze to death or got eaten by wolves, but it still reflects very poorly on the prince as a person much like if his carriage had knocked a beggar down and he gave orders to just keep driving.

    It's not as if the enchantress asked to sleep in his room or anything, he could have easily had his servants prepare a spare room, of which castles generally had many, and have them get her a bowl of soup and a seat in the kitchen. He could have housed her for weeks and barely interacted with her, the actual job of providing a room and food would have gone to the castle staff.

    EDIT: That said, given the age the prince is given, a spur of the moment decision made on superficial grounds is more forgivable, though it still makes him a **** who's response to someone asking for help was to tell them to piss off.
    Last edited by Grim Portent; 2020-11-06 at 09:21 AM.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

  24. - Top - End - #144
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Third, hospitality law existed after the Classical age. You can check Charlemagne's Capitularies from 802, 2.27 (you can also check Arab and Bedouin cultures, if you have a general interest). I don't see why a prince wouldn't have been subjected to it. Beyond the law, the moral duty persisted in later times, too, for reasons that I cannot explain in this board, although the development of economical activities revolving around hospitality made the requests less frequent after the XIII century.
    Indeed. You know, it'd be really lucky for me if I had specifically included "and medieval Europe" to all my arguments about that prior to this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    So, in my opinion, it was a very evil thing to do.
    I may have been a bit too flippant earlier when I said that on the scale of Evilness, it doesn't really register. Sure, it was evil. Very evil? That I won't commit to. And I maintain that the punishment was not proportional to the crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    It's also comparable to Frollo trying to drown Quasimodo as a baby in Hunchback of Notre Dame. An authority figure with a duty of care to those less fortunate than them
    No duty to care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    EDIT: That said, given the age the prince is given, a spur of the moment decision made on superficial grounds is more forgivable, though it still makes him a **** who's response to someone asking for help was to tell them to piss off.
    I wholly agree.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  25. - Top - End - #145
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    As I pointed out before, in the ancient story theme being used here, the punishment is not for the one small crime, rather the person is judged for a pattern of crime or a broad heart issue, with the specific incident being simply a test or a last chance of redemption.
    Numerous stories are based on the hero's journey, an ancient story theme, but we can still judge those stories based on modern critiques when those stories are modernized. I have zero reverence for ancient themes when those themes are bad when brought up to date.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    The movie explicitly says that the enchantress punished him because she "saw that the prince had no love in his heart". It's not proportional to the crime of refusing hospitality once because that is not what he is being punished for.
    Strange women lying in pondsknocking on castle doors distributing swordscursing the inhabitants is no basis for a system of governmentany sort of karmic justice system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    Arguably the damning thing even in that one incident isn't that he refused hospitality to the beggar woman, but that he immediately reversed course when she revealed herself as a beautiful enchantress. All the reasons to refuse hospitality that aren't "I don't value old, ugly poor people because they are old, ugly, and poor" apply equally to the enchantress, so that incident reveals the prince as self-centered, prejudiced, and lacking in empathy. Those qualities are what the curse is punishing (and since the curse is what drives the prince to overcome those qualities it's arguable that the curse was not a punishment but a rehab program).
    Again, I wholeheartedly agree that he was an *******.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-06 at 10:06 AM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  26. - Top - End - #146
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    Hey, I don't make the millennia-old story tropes, I just enforce them
    And doing a damn fine job of it, at that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    But even if you don't agree with the implementation of justice, it's still illogical to describe the punishment the prince received as disproportional to the crime if you aren't comparing the punishment with the crime that is actually being punished. The prince is being punished/sent on a redemption quest for the crime of having no love in his heart, not "refusing to give hospitality to this one old woman on this one stormy night".
    That's fair, but it's hardly a redemption quest if the quest giver makes it exponentially harder to do. Like saying someone needs to find their passion for gymnastics, so you break their legs until they can do the uneven bars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    Incidentally:

    The Curse of the Black Pearl is one of my favorite moves (#10 on my top ten, but who's counting). I grew up near the Disney World parks in an era where being a "local" got you a lot of discounts/free entertainment there, so the ride was a big part of my childhood (to the extent that I was arguing with friends about POTC lore before they even made a movie). Rogue One is also on my top 10. But when people say "Disney Villain" my mind limits that to movies (and shorts) made by the main Walt Disney Animation Studios, plus the direct-to-video spinoffs made by Disneytoon Studios.
    Understandable.

    And my hatred of crowds means I will only ever go to Disney World for my kid if he wants, though I'd still be super excited for Galaxy's Edge. Even with all the people.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  27. - Top - End - #147
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Also, a bit off-topic here, but i was re-reading and I am now super intrigued about non-movie POTC lore.

    Also, from what I understand, that would probably be my favorite ride even without the movies.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  28. - Top - End - #148
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Astral Seal!

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Moana is my favorite because there's no villain in the traditional sense. There's no overarching person Moana has to defeat. Her quest is entirely about herself, figuring out who she is, and gaining more confidence and personal strength. It's beautiful.

    And the fact that I love beaches and oceans and water is just a cherry on top.
    Did you like Onward? That movie ALSO had no villain. The closest thing to it was more akin to a bad storm than a bad person-a force of nature to be overcome, not an antagonist.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
    Show

    Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
    Show

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Did you like Onward? That movie ALSO had no villain. The closest thing to it was more akin to a bad storm than a bad person-a force of nature to be overcome, not an antagonist.
    Had to Google it, which made me realize that I wanted to see that but never got around to it.

    I should also add that in addition to beaches and water, I also love Jemaine Clement and Dwayne Johnson, so Moana fires on like all possible cylinders for me. The only way it could have been better would be if Albert Brooks had a part in it, and frankly, I don't think something that perfect cab even exist.

    Albert Brooks needs more movies.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-06 at 11:23 AM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Astral Seal!

    Default Re: Are There Any Chaotic Evil Disney Villains In The Disney Universe?

    I liked Onward. Would recommend.

    Nothing SPECTACULAR, but very fun!
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
    Show

    Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
    Show

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •