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  1. - Top - End - #151
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    Okay, I'm gonna stop letting you get away with this slander.

    Survivor: The survivor wins if they last to the end of the day
    I assume that means game? In either case:
    Boring.
    Boring.
    I would NEVER choose survivor. Over anything else on that list.
    And I will not stand for being slandered in this means.

    I am chaotic. And I don't define that on your terms.
    Feel free to remove your name and replace it with anyone's I'd consider the same logic to apply

    Apologies if I've insisted this too far

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee1 View Post
    Feel free to remove your name and replace it with anyone's I'd consider the same logic to apply

    Apologies if I've insisted this too far
    I barely even feel like I need to argue with your point, because you're now getting called out as a liar by two separate people, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee1 View Post
    If everyone is calling me a wolf this loses a lot of it's value just saying

    - - - Updated - - -

    what I've been saying all day

    is that literally regardless of what you think I flip as or what I actually flip as (the logic doesn't change if it's survivor, alien, mafia, wolf, sk, or town)

    Xihirli is claiming to have discarded survivor

    which means she isn't town

    because I, and the rest of you should agree, Xihirli is not picking town over survivor

    implying xihirli is not a member of the town
    This argument didn't read to me like "nobody picks town over survivor, therefore Xihirli must be scum", it reads like "Xihirli doesn't pick town over survivor, therefore Xihirli must be scum". It's a very basic "if X then Y" argument. If X gets refuted, you can't say "well it applies in general tho, so Y is still correct".

    And I'm not even saying I trust Xihirli just cuz you happen to have been double-called out. I'm just saying you can't point to a plank of wood and call it a table after the legs got sawed off. Those legs provided support that was integral to that plank of wood being a table, and without the legs it no longer is a table.


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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I barely even feel like I need to argue with your point, because you're now getting called out as a liar by two separate people, but...



    This argument didn't read to me like "nobody picks town over survivor, therefore Xihirli must be scum", it reads like "Xihirli doesn't pick town over survivor, therefore Xihirli must be scum". It's a very basic "if X then Y" argument. If X gets refuted, you can't say "well it applies in general tho, so Y is still correct".

    And I'm not even saying I trust Xihirli just cuz you happen to have been double-called out. I'm just saying you can't point to a plank of wood and call it a table after the legs got sawed off. Those legs provided support that was integral to that plank of wood being a table, and without the legs it no longer is a table.
    Perhaps contributing but not integral would be the way to put it

    regardless I'm fine dropping this line of suspicion

    not that it particularly matters anyways

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    RNGesus was right all along! I also roleblocked Apogee1 last night, I didnít trust his claim, and I couldnít think of any better targets

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Trust in the divine guidance of RNGesus. It shall not lead you astray.

    On another note, that certainly explains how Xihirli stayed alive. Unfortunately, none of the claims made are Town-exclusive, so pretty much anyone could be evil at this point.
    I can see it from the outside.
    And I know you're on the inside... lookin' out.


  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    What if town is evil?
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Spoiler: CaoimhinTheCape ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    People could have taken the back half of a werewolf or alien card (so we wouldn't see it) but I'd imagine they wouldn't be as popular.

    As Val pointed out, there's not much indication of what someone did pick based on their discard (at least from last game). I don't think your reason for voting is fool-proof but I don't hate it or anything.



    I don't think it's necessarily an indicator. Someone who discarded Protective may have felt they would rather Investigate, since townies don't know who to protect anyway. Or they could be an evil faction and discarded Protective so that they can have a stronger kill.



    They are mechanically the same, but last game we had an insane number of Wolves (5 or 6?) versus a smaller number of Mafia (3 or so?). We all need to make sure one faction doesn't hold onto too many people or they'll win by default.



    The AV vote... I kinda actually agree with the logic? I'd feel a little bad voting AV at this point but AV does seem the type to want a more unique faction than town (if she could help it).

    I got 2 Town cards and 1 Mafia card. Discarded the Town Killing.





    Last game, everyone picked a non-town alignment aside from one person (hi).



    Hi.



    That is a good point, this game we can assume at least 2 townspeople in the game. Still, we don't know how many people will have defaulted to Town by getting three cards.



    That is very much true. Someone could have taken Universal Backup knowing they were the only member of the faction (SK or Survivor) or assuming they would be the only member of their faction. They would get the ability they discarded, but look like they don't have the role.






    Huh. Your quote doesn't have my name in red. It's weird, but I'm guessing yours will show up in red, Xihirli.




    Vote Count:
    Captain Cap (1): Elenna
    Valmark (1): The Outsider
    Apogee1 (1): PartyOfRogues
    CaomhinTheCape (1): Xihirli
    The Outsider (1): Caerulea
    AvatarVecna (2): Valmark, JeenLeen
    JeenLeen (1): gac3
    Valmark (1): plenty
    rogue_alchemist (1): Captain Cap
    Caerulea (1): rogue_alchemist
    Xihirli (1): CaomhinTheCape


    Not voting: AvatarVecna, Apogee1, Zelphas
    Let me summarize that back and forth a little bit:

    Cao: "there's not much indication of what someone did pick based on their discard"

    TO: "Anyone have thoughts on what Town-aligned discards are more likely to be evil?"

    Cao: "I don't think it's necessarily an indicator."

    JL: "AV would want to be one of the factions to be able to network and have more fun [...] Her discarding a Town card, while meaning nothing in itself, lends credence to this."

    Cao: "The AV vote... I kinda actually agree with the logic?"

    Cao: [doesn't vote AV despite agreeing with the logic to vote AV]
    One of these Cao quotes is not like the others. These are all from the same post. And then after abandoning the "discards dont necessarily mean anything" train of thought, Cao doesn't even vote me???

    Strong scum lean.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Vote Count:
    Captain Cap (1): Elenna
    Valmark (2): The Outsider, plenty
    Apogee1 (1): PartyOfRogues
    CaomhinTheCape (1): Xihirli
    The Outsider (1): Caerulea
    AvatarVecna (2): Valmark, JeenLeen
    JeenLeen (1): gac3
    rogue_alchemist (1): Captain Cap
    Caerulea (1): rogue_alchemist
    Xihirli (1): CaomhinTheCape


    Not voting: AvatarVecna, Apogee1, Zelphas





    There we go. Fixed.
    Vute count and nothing else. Null, since Cao does this literally all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    I mean, that's fair. There's really nothing I can say to prove we aren't, other than we are likely not on the same side (unless AV picked Town also). If there isn't any better reason for a vote by the end of the day, I'm comfortable voting AV.



    I see what you're saying - this definitely could read as one faction looking to shift blame. I'll keep it in mind, not sure I'm ready to call Elenna Mafia (or less likely Alien) though.

    Regardless of Elenna's faction it still is a good point that she makes: that we don't have to just get rid of the three factions, but make that any one of them isn't too powerful to win the game outright.
    I'm really hoping this a townie unsure how to prove their town-ness, rather than the laziest pocketing attempt in existence.

    Not sure what to make of the part about Elenna. Could be alien getting some distancing in, could be werewolf pointing out a possible mafia/alien, could be town pointing out the same.

    Null.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Apogee got a whole bunch of votes real quick, and I'm definitely interested in having some sort of competing wagon. For now I'll vote AvatarVecna though I'm doubtful the vote on yourself is gonna last? So any explanation for that vote would be cool.

    Apogee - What's the reason for the vote on Caerulea? Based on your post, I assumed you would rather vote someone on your wagon.





    Vote Count:
    Captain Cap (1): Elenna
    Valmark (1): plenty
    Apogee1 (5): PartyOfRogues, Zelphas, JeenLeen, Xihirli, The Outsider
    The Outsider (1): Caerulea
    AvatarVecna (3): Valmark, AvatarVecna, CaomhinTheCape
    JeenLeen (1): gac3
    rogue_alchemist (1): Captain Cap
    Caerulea (2): rogue_alchemist, Apogee1
    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Ok, that was my confusion then. I'm guessing you meant discarding protective in your post?

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's a fair point too, not that an actual wagon is forming we'll see who is willing to lynch you/goes for someone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Alright, well, then aside from the vote on yourself any thoughts on the game so far?
    Townie points for pushing discussion with the two wagonees.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Hmmm. Alright. Things we know:

    Mafia may not exist.
    If they do exist they were blocked/their victim was saved.
    Werewolf faction is active in this game.
    Alien faction is or was active in the game.
    Aliens have info on whoever Elenna investigated last night.
    If Aliens have a Vigilante they were blocked/victim protected.
    If Aliens have a Mindslaver they did not pick someone with a kill.
    IF SK is in the game, they were blocked/their victim was protected.

    JeenLeen blocked Avatar Vecna.
    Apogee claimed Survivor.





    Alien Vigilante/Mindslaver and Mafia could have had kills tonight. If we assume you're one of those factions, JeenLeen's block could have prevented a kill.




    I'll agree on this point. We see 3 Mafia cards were publicly discarded and I already claimed that I took the back half of a Mafia card. Mafia wasn't a popular pick last game and if there were more town cards this game we probably have no mafia or a small one.




    AvatarVecna, I definitely can't doubt your dedication to voting yourself but I'm skeptical of how self voting today helps find anyone. I have my own suspicions but I'd rather see you voting someone else.





    I'm holding off my vote until I see what Xihirli has to say, but again I have my suspicions. Hopefully will have time this afternoon/evening for a reread and some more reads on people.





    Vote Count:
    AvatarVecna (2): AvatarVecna, JeenLeen


    Not Voting: Valmark, The Outsider, PartyOfRogues, gac3, Xihirli, Captain Cap, rogue_alchemist, Apogee1, CaoimhinTheCape, Zelphas, plenty
    Overall townie vibe from the post.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Spoiler: Analyzing Elenna
    Show




    Elenna gives a bit of a reason for voting Captain Cap, JeenLeen, and Valmark. Probably means that none of them are aliens with Elenna?




    I'm thinking Outsider is unlikely Alien? Don't see any reason for an ally to add suspicion to Elenna at this point?

    Also, weeewolves.





    So, this post was in defense of Apogee, and publicly asking if anyone wants to vote Xihirli or Outsider. At this point in the day, I don't think it's distancing.

    Vote for Caerulea but now we know they aren't on a team.



    TL;DR Based on Elenna's posts and others posting about her I think it's unlikely that Outsider or Xihirli are Aliens. Elenna threw shade on Valmark, Captain Cap, and JeenLeen early on but that has a better possibility of distancing. It's possible she was looking to protect Apogee with a large post defending him.







    Vote Count:
    AvatarVecna (3): AvatarVecna, JeenLeen, Valmark


    Not Voting: The Outsider, PartyOfRogues, gac3, Xihirli, Captain Cap, rogue_alchemist, Apogee1, CaoimhinTheCape, Zelphas, plenty
    "Elenna gives a bit of a reason for voting Captain Cap, JeenLeen, and Valmark. Probably means that none of them are aliens with Elenna?"

    General rule of thumb: if you see somebody give a list of three people they're suspicious of, and later the list-giver turns out to be scum, guaranteed one of the people on that list is a scum-buddy. For whatever reason, scum is allergic to being entirely "right" or entirely "wrong" when they cast suspicion on people, since if they die it's the kind of thing that gets analyzed later, so the list tends to be "two townies and one scumbuddy".

    The only hesitance I feel in saying that's definitely the case here is that there's multiple scum-factions and scum might feel comfortable fingering three non-scumbuddies on the assumption that at least one of them would happen to be scum by accident.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    I mean, I still stand by what I said: We have to keep an eye on the different factions and make sure one doesn't get too strong. What I was trying to say that after Elenna's post saying Werewolves could be a big problem I figured she was Mafia deflecting blame or (the less likely scenario) she was Alien deflecting blame.

    Either way, I see how you got there. Not much for me to say other than I'm not.



    That's what I thought you were going to say when you posted about big news. Good to have that confirmed.

    I'm inclined to believe this, since Xi is putting her neck on the line for this and if she's wrong she's immediately the target.

    @Apogee any response?




    Do you have any thoughts on what's been revealed today so far? Where do you stand on Apogee's Survivor claim vs Xihirli?







    Happy to join the wagon on Apogee1. I worry about having just the one wagon (plus the couple votes on AV) today, but I don't see any evidence against anyone else. Interested in Apogee's response and where his vote lands, plus we have a few people who haven't posted yet today so there may be more information coming in.




    Vote Count:
    AvatarVecna (2): AvatarVecna, Zelphas
    Apogee1 (6): Valmark, The Outsider, Xihirli, Captain Cap, JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape


    Not Voting: PartyOfRogues, gac3, rogue_alchemist, Apogee1, plenty
    Null lean, not much that couldn't be posted by anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    If this is true, why didn't you claim your shot in your first post?

    Your point about Xihirli being more likely to take Survivor than Town makes sense, but it could both be true that you and Xihirli are both different evil factions. Xi doesn't get a free pass for this.
    Null.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    So yeah, Apogee kept ninja'ing me so I was asking questions that he already answered.

    While I don't think Apogee needs to be as worries about being Strongmanned (if that's in the game) he's making a lot of good points. Leaving my vote where it is for the moment but I'll think about this.

    The problem with a Survivor Vigilante is that Apogee could turn on Town at any point and it's really up to which way he shoots.




    @everyone Can anyone account for Xihirli's protection or a roleblock of Apogee?

    If Xihirli flips a certain faction, it's still possible you're another faction that's against town. If you flip Survivor, we know Xi discarded the Survivor card but we can't confirm a faction.

    I don't see what Xi gets by lying about this though. As soon as Apogee flips survivor we lynch Xi for being anti-town.
    A1: "I'm vig and I shot Xi but Xi survived."

    Cao: "Why didnt you claim vig yesterday?"

    A1: "Because any faction with a kill would want me dead."

    Cao: "Seems legit."
    ...uh, no? No it does not seem legit. Sure, Mafia wouldn't like the WW vig to live, but that's because WW vig isn't firing entirely blind, they've got allies they'll refuse to target, and the group as a whole can give the vig more info to pick targets with. A town vig or a survivor vig is an asset to any non-town faction because it means more blind-NKs and fewer lynches and less risk (if survivor vig or their target is watched in the night, mafia isn't going to get in trouble the next day, but they still benefit from the kill as long as the kill wasn't a mafia member). And survivor is even better than Serial Killer for mafia/WW/aliens because I'm fairly certain that SK needs to kill everybody whereas Survivor just needs to survive, so Survivor isn't even somebody the mafia/WW/Aliens would need to kill.

    I think it's weird that Cao let it go so easy, but unless today is going super weird, it can't be that Cao is specifically aligned with Serial-Killer-Apogee. More likely, Cao is just some non-town faction (probably mafia) putting a touch of pressure on and then leaving because he doesn't actually mind a survivor vig.

    Scum lean.


    Nul, slightly leaning scum. Most of Cao's posts are fine and towny, but when there's a scummy post, it's really pinging me.


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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Spoiler: Captain Cap ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    I could see an argument for the aliens, but aren't werewolves and mafia basically the same mechanically, just different factions?


    I didn't play the last game, but if there's truly a tendency of choosing non-town factions the argument kind of makes sense. I think the conclusions would depend very much on the probability of getting 3 town cards: if it's very low, then almost everyone would have equal opportunity of being non-town, but if it's not small, then players discarding non-town would be statistically more likely to be non-town than players discarding town (given this last set would contain the "sure town" set).


    From the recruitment thread:


    - - - Updated - - -

    rogue_alchemist is one of those who hasn't spoken yet, moreover I have to keep the tradition going.
    "Confusion on mechanics", "restating the obvious", and "quoting recruitment OP". It's a big post saying nothing, and while it's their first one so the randvote isn't inherently suspicious, the rest of it isn't a good look either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    I don't see how this supports your case: if Apogee1 is not affiliated with anyone, then the wagon would carry the least possible amount of information, given no main faction would have a problem voting him or care much about his fate.

    Other than that, I agree that lynching Apogee1 would be the safest option: even if he's not lying, we wouldn't lose much. Would it be better to gamble and try to lynch someone else hoping to take out a bad guy (given that from what I understood, in this kind of game we should expect a greater number of non-town compared to town)? Honestly I don't know, nor I'm particularly satisfied with any current wagon.

    That said, I would like to hear more from the people voting Caerulea, aside from Apogee1 and rogue_alchemist, who already gave a decent justification.


    Elenna, The Outsider, could you expand a bit more on your reasons?
    "I don't think lynching Apogee would give town any info. But it risks the least damage to town so they're a good kill. Of course, in a game like this, a random lynch also has a good chance of getting a non-town anyway...eh screw it, just lynch the claimed survivor. Also I'm still not voting anybody."

    This doesn't read like a town trying to make the D1 lynch useful, this reads like non-town trying to muddy the water and taking the easy route to doing so, while still trying to look useful-ish without actually contributing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    It makes sense.

    Now that I've pondered a bit more on the situation, Caerulea, Apogee1 at least claimed a faction, do you have any claim that could better justify the discard of Protective?
    CC latches onto another person's reasoning and asks questions, but never seems to really share their own thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    It was written even in the recruitment thread, so I wouldn't base a town leaning on this.
    Slight town lean. This is a solid point about how Caerulea could be non-town playing clueless to look like an innocent casual townie, and I think scum would've pushed it as damning evidence rather than pointing out it's NAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    Yeah, this claim isn't particularly substantial... maybe your reticence in claiming a role has good reasons, maybe not. I admit that I'm quite conflicted.
    NAI, although tbh if Cap is town I really can't blame them for seeing Cae's post of "I'm town (but saying so means nothing)" and thinking it's not exactly the strongest argument for Cap to move their vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    It was Unavanger's answer to someone else: I quoted the passage in my first comment in game.
    IIoA, but an understandable example so eh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    Removed my vote.
    Null. Could be town trying to save the town claimant, could be non-town jumping off a wagon to get townie points while knowing Cae wouldn't survive the lynch anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    Ok, let's go with Apogee1.
    NAI. Anybody can play "follow the leader". Really wish they'd been around the first half of the day to provide insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    So you have doubts about Xihirli's accusations, correct?
    Good that somebody else was calling this out besides me. Might be biased, but I'm thinking slight town lean for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    Well, if she's lying we'll kill her tomorrow. Is not that town is going to lose much if we lynch you, Apogee1, if you're truly a Survivor; on the other hand we get useful intel either way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    But less than losing another town, that's for sure, and by lynching you there's no risk of making such mistake.


    Not if she flips town.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    Let's be clear: you're confirmed nothing at the moment, it's just your word vs Xihirli's. And the underlined part is a straight-up exaggeration: voting you off could potentially help us get rid of a baddie (if you're not a Survivor) and worse case scenario we don't lose a town; so no, voting you off is one of the best possible courses of action for town at the moment.

    And no, I'm not treating you as a Survivor: I'm treating you as someone who's surely not town.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Potentially killing a town in the process.
    I'm enjoying the way Cap just keeps handing Apogee a shovel to dig himself deeper with. Slight town lean in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    Suspicious at the moment: I hope they'll better clarify their position (and answer my question).
    NAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    Could you explain your reasoning behind this?
    NAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    We don't even need to bring up luck: if she's not-town, she could have a particularly useful power for her faction, something that could justify the protection from a potential allied baner.
    A fair point, although one anybody could make.


    Early on there's a good bit that gets under my skin but things improve over time. Null, slightly leaning scum.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Spoiler: gac3 ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Hmmm... If we learned anything from last time it's that people don't willingly choose town. Throwing away town means nothing because Unavenger said there would be a lot more town roles this time. But throwing away non-town just makes me think you got a second non-town option so I'll got JeenLeen

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll be honest, I didn't read other people's comments before I posted. So I see I parroted others.
    NAI. Anybody could (and apparently did) point this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Last game I don't think anybody got three town cards. (Maybe 1 or 2 people). On the other hand after realizing that nobody chose town (there was one town person the whole game) we were told that the next time it would be weighted to make sure that we didn't have that happen again. So I'd say there is a good chance of several people getting 3 town options.
    Same as above. Not sure if it's townie sharing honest thoughts, or scum trying to make town feel bigger than it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Same... Usually I habitually refresh the forum but the past few days I forgot in favor of habitually refreshing the election results. I'll catch up and weigh in on what I think after start of day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The same was to missing a lot, not to having lots to say

    - - - Updated - - -

    The same was to missing a lot, not to having lots to say
    "I've been quiet, but I'll try not to be going forward. Also I don't have a lot to say."

    ...aaaaaaand that's the most recent post from gac3.


    Null lean, need more info. GTH I'd say scum, but in a game like this with more total scum than town, that's not saying much.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2020-11-10 at 10:18 PM.


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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by PartyOfRouges View Post
    RNGesus was right all along! I also roleblocked Apogee1 last night, I didnít trust his claim, and I couldnít think of any better targets
    Aww boooo

    And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids roleblockers

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Yes, accept your death and embrace the absurd. It is the only way to stay sane in this cruel world.
    Spoiler: Quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  11. - Top - End - #161
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Jan 2014

    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Spoiler: JeenLeen ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I believe, in a non-PM game, AV would want to be one of the factions to be able to network and have more fun (that is, I think she'd find being Town a little boring in this game.) Also, she hasn't died D1 for a while. Her discarding a Town card, while meaning nothing in itself, lends credence to this. So AvatarVecna.
    This is creating a 2-vote wagon.

    Unavenger said the deck was modified to increase the number of townies. I know some people will lie when answering this, but
    1) Did anyone get 3 Town cards?
    2) Did anyone get 2 Town and 1 non-Town?

    For me, it was Town, Town, and Mafia.
    Though, in retrospect, I realize I probably should have made myself Town Innocent Child. For one thing, for the humorous quoting my fakeclaim text from recruitment. Also, I saw in my last game (with Apogee1) how powerful that can be in a non-PM game. But I didn't think of that until it was too late for me to get back online.



    I admit that is a definite possibility.
    And, honestly, if I could have been Mafia Innocent-Looking, I would have taken that. But Town Innocent-Looking felt boring, and I didn't like the other Mafia sets and wasn't sure if I wanted the extra work of coordinating with a faction.



    As did I.
    Noteworthy that Valmark and I discarded the same card, if anyone wants to try to decipher card probabilities.

    Valmark, I gave the (admittingly weak and easily-made-up) excuse about why I discarded Innocent-Looking. Why did you?
    I'd've chosen non-town if I'd been given a choice in the matter.

    Once more we have somebody giving their reason for doing a thing, and then immediately having an aside about how it's obviously not going to convince anybody regardless of their actual alignment. And then there's the Valmark thing: JeenLeen just explained that they don't think a Mafia Innocent discard is necessarily proof of anything, but now they're interrogating Valmark for doing literally the same thing??? Idk it all just really rubs me the wrong way, and not just the part where they blindly accuse me of choosing scum because I like to network.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Also, I see nobody discarded Survivor or Serial Killer. That doesn't necessarily mean they are in the game -- if I were a "wolf" faction, I'd want to keep it secret from the others that the Serial Killer/Survivor is NOT in the game so as to have a good fakeclaim (survivor) and source of making others nervous (serial killer). But it makes it certainly possible they're not in the game.
    Though I guess we will (unless baners do a lucky job) find out if the Serial Killer exists once Night 1 resolves.
    If Xihirli is scum, this is the post that inspired her to claim to have drawn/stealth-discarded Survivor. It might even be true, but this is part of why I'm saying that Apogee dying doesn't prove Xihirli trustworthy - it could be a townie move, but it could also be a scum move to try and look more townie.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Guessing Faction Affinity Based on Card Discards

    I also reckon that anyone who discarded a Killing card is likely not the Survivor. That ability to end the game faster makes it a lot more likely Survivor will win.
    Likely also not Alien, as getting a night-kill (NK) in a non-NK 'wolf' faction is extremely useful.

    Not sure about other factions. Strongman is useful, but it's circumstantial, so a mafia/werewolf/serial killer may or may not want it. If I were Serial Killer, I'd probably want more utility as opposed to the ability to make my kill 'strong'. But with Aliens around and how highjacking of the kill happened last game, they might want a Strongman power.

    A Survivor or Serial Killer would definitely be okay dropping Protective, since they are already immune to NKs and don't have innate allies to protect. Universal Backup is also trash for them, as there's nobody for them to back-up.
    So...Captain Cap probably isn't Survivor or Alien, one of which we now have maybe-confirmed-ish? Good to know?

    Calling out Universal Backup as trash for both Survivor and Serial Killer...

    *looks at how things have gone today, with Apogee claiming Survivor, and somebody else claiming Apogee is Serial Killer*

    ...okay yeah that tracks.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Makes sense. Town Innocent is rather powerful (or at least forces a NK away from more valuable targets) when it's Town vs. Mafia, but not as much when its Town vs Mafia vs Werewolf vs Alien.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I buy that, and I can see not wanting to put a third vote on a wagon so early. But the "kinda actually agree" but voting elsewhere looks a touch suspicious. Just noting this to file it away for "maybe AV and Cao are on the same faction."
    NAI. Anybody could've pointed out that it looks sketchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Apogee1 knows the metagame around here doesn't (without good reason) lynch new players D1. So while noting suspicion and even voting for someone in itself isn't bad, per se, it's almost meaningless.
    This could be a distancing thing between two scum-buddies. Each poking each other with an essentially harmless vote: Apogee can be fairly certain a D1 wagon won't form on Zephas, while Zephas could (reasonably and with justificable reasonings) change their vote to someone else if a wagon forms on Apogee.

    Though this could also just be normal D1 randomness and half-joking, and Apogee does make a legitimate point, so I'm not very suspicious, but suspicious enough to note this for the record (in case I die tonight) and file it away for interpretation later on in the game.



    I feel like there's stuff to say about this, but not sure quite what...

    To new player(s): AV does sometimes vote for herself to see what the response is. I do have some speculation based on this, but I don't think sharing it would help the Town (or Survivor, if one exists), so I'll wait until more is revealed by AV or N1/D2 starts to comment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    EDIT/follow-up: the closeness of Apogee1 and Zephas' posts also makes it possible they were coordinating this in private chat before making it public.
    If that's the case, they'd have to be Aliens, right, since only Aliens can use private chat during the Day? If I recall correctly, Werewolves and Mafia cannot. (Please correct me if I'm misremembering!)

    So... if one of them flips Alien, I suspect the other as Alien.
    Edit/followup feels like slight town lean, even if it's looking to be definitely not true. Rewrites are scummy, edits are towny.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Actually, change my vote to Apogee1. It's suspicious enough for D1, and my suspicions on AV are based on playstyle and metagaming, and her self-voting (in the particular case of this game) makes me inclined to believe her as non-wolf. (If/when she dies, I'll state my reasonings if anyone's curious/I remember to, but I'd rather be quiet about it for now.)
    If Apogee flips Alien today, I recommend lynch Zephas D2.

    Still wary of AV, but, well, it's probable some faction will try to take her out as a dangerous foe (either Town or an enemy faction), so her longevity is likely limited anyway and she'll flip sooner than later without being lynched.
    Moves vote, claims to think my self-vote is now towny, but also still wary of me. Mmmmmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Correct. If it weren't D1 where we're all grasping at straws, I wouldn't consider it worthwhile, but it is D1 and my other straw is that I think AV's find Town boring, so that puts you in the crosshairs.

    However, I don't think I understand your line of "blasting through the wagon where the order of wolfy vote on me is"--are you saying you have an idea which one of us (if any) is non-Town? Want to share the thoughts?
    If you do die today and flip Town, your reasoning could be helpful.



    Yeah, I can see that as a wolf move.
    Might say more, but want to confirm something with Unavenger in QT first.



    That's true to my recollection, but not strong evidence.
    Overall town vibes from this response. Can't really put my finger on why but it just generally feels more measured.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    In defense of Caerulea: when she asked about who she could talk to via PM, she said something like "beyond myself". (I don't have time to look up the quote right now.) In my "you are Town" QT post, Unavenger said something akin to "you can talk to yourself". Maybe Unavenger said that to everyone in their solo QT, maybe not--but it makes me inclined to think Caerulea is Town, despite the question in itself looking a tad wolfish.

    In other words, Caerulea implied her QT post from Unavenger is similar to mine, and since I'm Town, makes me think she might be, too.
    I want to hold-off on posting what the "you are Town" text is, lest we compare QTs to snare a wolf later.

    On Apogee: If Apogee1 is Survivor, nobody wants him dead. It's an extremely safe claim for a baddie to make, since the Town Investigative or Seer would rather scry someone else.
    However, since nobody is counterclaiming (as Survivor or "I had the card but discarded it"), I'm willing to believe him for now. Also, I have an inkling someone else is Survivor, but I'd rather hear it from them.

    So who to vote for? Elenna's musing on The Outsider and Xihirli sound reasonable. Xihirli died D1 last game, so The Outsider.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Side Note: AV wrote her post while I was writing mine, and I gotta go play with the kids, so not responding now. Also, not sure when Day ends due to being confused about time zones, but I realize it might be too late for my vote to matter (beyond saving Apogee, perhaps--but I mean no wagon on who I vote for is likely), but I don't feel comfortable voting Cearulea due to the reasons posted.
    My QT had a similar note about talking to myself.

    "Survivor is a safe claim for scum, but it hasn't been counterclaimed so let's trust it"

    15 minutes to go and changes vote to The Outsider on very shaky grounds.

    Null lean overall for this one - some good, some bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I realized that no counter-claim is weaker than I originally thought, since (if Apogee is lying and on a baddie faction), it could be he or one of his allies didn't choose Survivor but neither discarded it. Meaning it's a safe claim.

    I was thinking a counterclaim might exonerate or add heat to Apogee, but (if he is lying) it's probably a safe lie with the help of his scumbuddies.
    Sorry, Caerulea. Bad play on my part, and sorry I was offline when you claimed.
    I've already said my bit about apologizing to the dead. Scum lean.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Eh; that's fair.
    But, if I were really a wolf, would I write something so wolfish?

    More seriously, if I had been online, I likely would have switched my vote back to Apogee.
    I really feel inclined to say who I think the Survivor actually is (if Apogee is lying), but I'd rather they soak some NKs, so best to wait.

    On the plus side, we have no reason to think she (as Town) would lie about getting 3 Town cards. So her death does verify that some folk had no choice but to be Town. Not sure how helpful that info is, but it's something we didn't know beforehand (or, well, those who didn't get 3 Town cards didn't know.)
    The whole point about apologizing to dead villagers is that it's a mistake. Townies who take part in a mislynch deal with the fallout of that later, and don't apologize to the dead cuz it does the dead person no good. Meanwhile, wolves feel a need to pretend that them lynching a townie was an accident (even though it was totally on purpose), and so they'll publicly perform as being sorry to look townier. But that means it's a thing that townies basically never do and wolves do a good deal more often (even if it's still rare for a wolf to do). This is almost exclusively an act scum do - even good scum players. It's a bad habit.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    TeSting (this is not spam; post has a purpose)

    - - - Updated - - -

    It's the In Case I Die Report.

    I voided AV.
    From some stuff AV said, I have an inkling she might be the Survivor if Apogee is lying. But her later statements about counterclaiming cause me to doubt that initial thought... unless that's just her hinting around the bush, or implying it circumspectly to make folk think she might be.
    Or she could be the serial killer.
    Also hoped that, by saying "I have an idea who the Survivor is", wolves might think I'm hinting I'm the Survivor. I'm not, but seemed good reason to maybe get a Werewolf to kill an Alien/Mafia instead of a townie.

    If AV is a wolf, I suspect she might choose to do the NK since she knows folk often target her with abilities, so she's more likely than others to get scried as a baddie or watched. So she might do the kill since she realizes the seer might catch her anyway. (Though it's also sound she might not because she knows someone (beyond the now-dead Caerulea) might be a watcher.)

    So, um, if there's less kills than we think there should be, it could be a fortunate baner or it could be that I voided one of the NKers.

    But, unless that pans out, I'm thinking of voiting Apogee to see if I should have kept my vote on him D1.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hmm.... I appear to have misjudged how closely to 1 PM my time the GMT time (or the post based thereon) would align. Well, my bad for not double-checking first.
    Now just to question if I should change my action before Night ends... Nah.
    "I've voided AV just in case she's the survivor. Or maybe the serial killer, idk. Or maybe a wolf."

    "I think AV knows she'll be watched/scried tonight, so I think AV would've chosen to do the kill tonight when she thinks she's being watched"

    Trying to preemptively take credit for fewer NKs than there should be. Boooo.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    And... well, I guess I might actually change my action. If AV is Town, then voiding does no good. If AV is a baddie, then at least one of her faction likely saw this and has been able to respond.
    And maybe I'll just give up on these 'if I die' things. They feel fun and witty to do, but too much work and I know, as a narrator, I don't like the pressure of the cutoff mattering exactly when it is set up.

    Hope somebody quotes this to see the white-text. Didn't actually change my action. Hoping to throw the wolves off if AV is a wolf.
    "I'll pretend to consider changing my action, but then leave this suspicious blank void at the bottom of my post, so anybody who knows the forum well enough can highlight or quote it to learn that I actually am trying to throw off the wolves in general and AV in particular."

    This works a whole lot better if you don't basically announce it. Not that it matters, since I don't have a NK to void anyway.

    Although really, if you thought people would be watching me in the night, your best bet would've been to let me get the kill, that way town watcher could see me target (for example) JeenLeen, and then wake up to a dead JeenLeen the next day. That would make me look pretty bad if I was un-voided and watched, but since I was voided, that hypothetical watcher got nothing for watching me last night. Nice job breaking it, "Hero".

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    For what it's worth, I did void AV.
    And with reading some things as "maybe she is a Survivor"... all that translates just as well to Serial Killer. And just one death last night. So if she Mafia (if any exist), Serial Killer, or just other baners/voided interfered with NKs?

    So let's see, AvatarVecna.
    Though, um, if any Townie decided not to be the Serial Killer and wants to vindicate AV, please feel free.

    - - - Updated - - -



    My biggest time doing that was as Town Snape in the Harry Potter. Though I think I did do it at least once as wolf, too. So, yeah, good point, but pointing out I've done it at least once as town.
    I'm curious to reach the part of this ISO where JeenLeen will have to walk back the "AV is survivor or serial killer" theory without actually giving up on accusing me or making his old arguments look like lies in hindsight.

    EoN note is NAI on its, as JeenLeen points out. It's the content I disagreed with, and how he immediately pretended to walk it back. It just looks like a giant public facade, JeenLeen putting a show to play at being townie but always leaving an "oops shouldn't've said that publicly" out when it appears to backfire on him.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Apogee and/or AvatarVecna, given the heat today, want to claim a Power? Anything from last night make that provable?

    I can see "no" as a legitimate answer for AV; if she's Town, she might want to keep her role secret for good reasons. But I can't see much reason for that with Apogee.

    ---

    I think the conclusion that Xi and The Outsider are not aliens is a sound conclusion.
    I want to keep my vote on AV (at least for now) to see if she says anything more with some votes on her, and having competing wagons gives more intel for analysis later on, but I respect those voting for Apogee. If he flips alien, we're probably close to eliminating the alien faction. (No idea how many there are, but in a game this small I reckon there's 3-4 max... though unsure how the Card mechanics influence variability.) We mislynched D1, but no bad NKs N1, so we're in a good position.
    If there is no serial killer and mafia (or we can keep them at bay for now*), maybe we can make this a town vs. werewolf game in a game meant to be a several-way fight. That should be a good winning position.

    *I kinda suspect there is at least one of those two, but its NK got negated via bane or void. Unless evidence lends strongly to another person being a baddie, I may do the same void N2 as I did N1.

    ---

    Actually, on the question of "how many Aliens could there be?"

    We have 4 people saying they had a Mafia card: three Narrator-confirmed discards, and Cao stating he used the power-side of a card. Did anyone else have a Mafia card?
    For balance purposes, it makes sense to me if the deck had the same number of cards for each faction. So maybe 4 werewolf, 4 mafia, and 4 alien. Hmm... but that would mean likely not many folk getting 3 Town cards, so maybe something like 3/3/4 or Cao is lying and it's 3/3/3.
    I could see Cao lying if he's an Alien or Werewolf trying to throw us off the scent.

    Hmm... I guess, from a gut sense of balance, it's likely there aren't MORE than 4 cards for each bad faction. Probably less, or less for some factions, unless some people got something like Town-Alien-Werewolf cards, or a lot less people got 3 Town cards than are claiming such. So I suspect 3-4 aliens total (including Elenna). I can see that being popular, as it's mechanically different from most games. Feeling 2-4 werewolves. 0-1 mafia.

    If anyone is Town and about to die, I strongly encourage you to state your cards to help us gain intel on enemy numbers.
    If anyone is not-Town and about to die, and feeling spiteful towards the other bad factions, you could also share.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As an a general reply to suspicion on me: I definitely get it. Some of my actions and words have looked shadey; some of it's I hadn't throught stuff through completely, part of it that I think I'm not as careful with my words when I'm Town since I'm not caring so much about covering my tracks. Since I don't have a defense beyond "well, I'm being honest" and I've already (mostly if not completely) stated my reasoning for why I've acted as I have, don't see much point in defending myself.

    I'll probably be off the forum a fair bit tomorrow due to a big work project, and I have a state holiday Wednesday... so might be a bit less online the rest of the Day than I usually am.
    The gall of this boy, voiding me and then, with a straight face, asking if I can claim a power use from last night that can be verified by somebody else. I've claimed even if nobody noticed, I'm not going to repeat myself. My power didn't affect anybody last night, so I can't tell you what I did or who I targeted in a way that anybody can confirm.

    The reasoning about townies up for the lynch telling what their other cards were is a townie move. Every faction gains useful info from that, but town gains the most, and encouraging townies to do so is a good sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Why didn't you reveal that Day 1, when doing so likely would have saved Caerulea?
    Though, even if Xihirli is lying, I can still see voting off Apogee to potentially learn something about what Xihirli isn't. E.g., if Apogee is werewolf, then Xi probably isn't.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh. You were implying you were offline since Apogee claimed Survivor, and (for some reason) waiting until Day to reveal it.
    But why wait to reveal it until Day breaks?

    Stating it at night just makes it more likely a rival faction would take out Apogee. Yeah, it's info that could help the baddies, but only in a way that helps the Town. That is, assuming Apogee is a baddie, which seems likely if you're telling the truth.
    These are some worthwhile thoughts, and tbh I'm thinking it over and I'm unsure why town!Xihirli would hold off until D2. Maybe I'll see an answer when I get to that ISO. ISOs tend to be how I end up experiencing the thread arguments, and things only really come into focus once they're all done. Town lean.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    That's all reasonable. And just let me reassure you that the metagame can feel a bit overwhelming, but it's something you can learn after a couple games. At least, that's how I felt as a new player in my first games.

    But to explain a couple metagame points, and sorta state you still look Alien-y from this. Or like someone trying to protect Apogee while looking like it's not really trying to protect him.
    • it is reasonable and good to have competing wagons in order to gain more intel. So a vote on AV is a good thing in a sense.
    • But this does look like you making an attempt at protecting Apogee, which goes with the idea of you both being wolves


    I don't want to risk last-minute vote switches somehow saving Apogee, so Apogee1. (I know it's not last-minute, but i likely won't be online tomorrow much.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    An idea to throw out there: if Apogee flips Alien, we have good reason to suspect Zephas as Alien (maybe last Alien) as well. But would it be better to leave Zephas alive (e.g., not lynch) and hope one of the other baddie factions take him out, while we focus on the finding the ones who actually have a Night Kill?
    A lone Alien seems pretty harmless, at least until late game.

    But I've never played a game with aliens before, so I might be missing something.
    Z: "either apogee or xihirli is lying, maybe both. So I'll vote AV"

    JL: "yeah seems legit"

    lol, scumlean

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I definitely can see Xihirli lying, but if she is, she dies D3.
    If she is serial killer, why didn't someone die to her N1? I can kinda see her not killing someone N1 to deflect belief her role is active, but... seems unlikely.



    So, if you live today, I'm voiding you
    On the other hand, if you die today and flip Survivor Vig, I'll void Xihirli since that strongly implies she is the Serial Killer.
    Either way, the Town should be safe from a townie getting NKed tonight from you/Xi.

    Xi, want to claim a power that gives a reason for me not to void you? Ideally, without lying.
    It seems extra unlikely that holding off on a kill N1 would deflect attention away from such a role in the long-term, because the kills (both this game and last game) have both fluff and color-coding appropriate to the faction that performed the kill.

    Also you're awfully quick to threaten people with voiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Honestly, I think you're either an Innocent Child wanting to shunt the lynch to the 2nd-place person last minute. Or you're a baddie who is hoping to look town by being willing to be sacrificed.

    Your death doesn't look likely to yield info right now. If you died and flipped Town, that wouldn't tell us anything about Apogee and Xi and we'd have no more info than we already do (well, beyond that you were Town.) Really, only if you are Survivor or Serial Killer, would we get info.
    If you were the Survivor, I think you'd claim it now. Or maybe you still hope to soak a NK tonight, knowing both are lying. But, then, why wouldn't you want Xi or Apogee to die.
    If you were the Serial Killer... well, I could see you acting this way to look townish.

    So, really, I don't see any reason why AV-as-Town would want to die, since it doesn't yield info. Usually when you want to die as Town, it is helpful to the Town.
    Thus, inclined to think you're a baddie or neutral.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah...
    If Apogee dies this Day, I void Xihirli this Night, and there's a Serial Killer/mafia kill, I guess we learn AV is the Serial Killer/mafia.

    OH---and I could see Cao as lying about his cards (if he's werewolf) and AV being a solo mafia. Her acting this way as a solo in a faction (a kinda-destined-to-lose situation) sorta makes sense.
    If I thought you were town, I'd probably eat the kill out of spite at this point.

    "I dont see why town AV would want to die" says the person who already explained to new players that AV self-voting doesn't necessarily indicate a desire to die. You're getting your narratives tangled, my dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    AV, are you proposing that I'm the solo mafioso? Not sure what you think I'm projecting... except that I guess I'm projecting how I'd act in the various scenarios I'm imaging you might be in.

    And to clarify on my line of actions: I meant if Apogee dies and flips Survivor Vigilante, then I'll void Xihirli.
    At least unless someone gives some other excuse for Xi surviving a NK.

    Some semi-random speculation

    If Apogee flips Alien, more thinking Zephas is Alien.
    If Apogee flips Survivor Vig, pretty sure Xihirli is a baddie.
    If Apogee flips Serial Killer, pretty sure Xihirli is trustworthy.
    If AV (or anybody, really) flips Mafia, kinda reckon Cao is lying about his cards and thus is probably a baddie.
    Pretty sure Xihirli and The Outsider are not Aliens (based on Elenna's post near end of D1.)
    Leaning town from this. A good deal more analysis than I'd expect scum to provide, even just for cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I started to write an explanation and realized it's not as strong a thought as I initially thought it was.
    But basically:
    1) if Apogee is not-Town/Survivor
    2) and Apogee honestly did try to kill Xihirli N1 (I see no reason for him to lie about that, unless he and Xi are both werewolves)
    3) and Xihirli didn't die (which obviously is what happened)
    4) and Apogee was not voided (NO REAL PROOF FOR THIS, but nobody has said they voided him, while discussion would give a good reason to state that)

    That means Xihirli somehow survived a NK.
    So that means Xihirli was baned, Xihirli is the Survivor, or Xihirli is the Serial Killer.
    If Apogee flips Serial Killer, that rules out Xi being serial killer.
    Meaning Xi is the real Survivor (and lying to be Town for.... some reason, maybe to soak NKs, but not lying about her cards), or a baner was in play in a lucky way. I guess the latter doesn't show Xi as trustworthy since any faction can be/have a baner, though--hence my realizing my conclusion wasn't as solid as I thought.

    I'm hoping by D3 someone will speak up if they voided Apogee, since it might help determine who to lynch. But I see not wanting to admit your power this Day or the upcoming Night, in order to avoid drawing a NK tonight.
    While I also think the reasoning is shaky I'm glad it was shared. Very slight town lean for being willing to share a knowingly-weak argument.


    Town lean. I feel like there's a lot of effort and analysis here, and while it's aimed at me a lot more than I'm comfortable with, and frequently looks sketchy, overall it's more "towny unconcerned with optics" sketchy.


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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    In response to your question, AV:
    I didn't think the counterclaim would help Town in the night, and waited until we could get a vote done. And I didn't counterclaim the day before because I wasn't checking this thread from the time of Apogee's claim to the end of day.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  13. - Top - End - #163
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Day 2 End

    Please wait a few minutes for votes to be counted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    AvatarVecna voted APOGEE1
    Valmark voted APOGEE1
    The Outsider voted APOGEE1
    PartyOfRogues voted APOGEE1
    gac3 REFUSED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE CORRUPT INSTITUTION OF DEMOCRACY
    Xihirli voted APOGEE1
    Captain Cap voted APOGEE1
    rogue_alchemist voted APOGEE1
    Apogee1 voted XIHIRLI
    JeenLeen voted APOGEE1
    CaomhinTheCape voted APOGEE1
    Zelphas voted APOGEE1
    plenty voted APOGEE1

    Apogee1 recieved 11 votes
    Xihirli recieved 1 vote
    1 person refused to participate in the corrupt institution of democracy.

    Apogee1 died today. He was hanged. Apogee1's role was Serial Killer Spy.

    Night 2 Start

    Night 2 will end at 18:00, 13/11/2020.

  14. - Top - End - #164
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Praise RNGesus for his guidance

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Xihirli's Avatar

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Praise be.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  16. - Top - End - #166
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    To help coordinate with the other Roleblocker/JOAT in play: I'm not targeting Xihirli or AV tonight. (Or, at least, I'm submitting now to change the Night action I put in yesterday, such that I'm not. Not lying this time.)
    So, if there is a mafia kill, keep that in mind.
    I would wait until Day to post this, but I wouldn't be surprised if I don't last to Day break, but maybe I've been suspicious enough the baddies will leave me alive and hope I'm lynched instead.

    Also, just pointing out that our Town JOAT could be an Alien JOAT... though I'm inclined to think otherwise. I reckon the Aliens might've wanted to leave the Serial Killer around a touch more in hopes they take Town/werewolves. Baners, if you exist, please help. Or RA, if you're able to get online this Night, maybe good to bane yourself, but I definitely understand if real life keeps you busy.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Or RA, if you're able to get online this Night, maybe good to bane yourself, but I definitely understand if real life keeps you busy.
    rogue_alchemist claimed Investigative, not JOAT.

  18. - Top - End - #168
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cap View Post
    rogue_alchemist claimed Investigative, not JOAT.
    Oh. Well, baners: um, please bane.
    Though, I guess the idea that he could be Alien still holds, e.g., an Alien Investigative would also found out Faction.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    To new players: as you may have gleamed, most people don't talk during Night phase because generally that only helps the baddies. That is, the main decision to make at Night is 'who to kill' by the wolves, so giving more intel at Night generally just helps them more than Town. There's sometimes exceptions, but it's rare. (And, yeah, more info does help Town decide who to target with their powers, but there's usually enough info from the prior Day that it's not worth it.)

    Also, as FoS on new players, the fact that they haven't talked at Night makes me think a scum-buddy may have told them that it's generally a wolfy move.
    On the other hand, the new players have been relatively quiet even during the Day, so maybe their silence at Night doesn't mean much. And they might've looked at a previous game where that aspect of the metagame was mentioned.

  20. - Top - End - #170
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Night 2 End

    You awaken to an unusual sight: one of your number has been clawed to death by a werewolf. However, someone seems to have managed to take revenge for last night's killing. One of the werewolves lies dead, their body burned by a shot from what appears to be some kind of directed energy weapon - a blaster gun, so to speak.

    JeenLeen died today. They were clawed to death. JeenLeen's role was Town Roleblocker.
    gac3 died today. They were shot to death with a blaster. gac3's role was Werewolf Universal Backup.

    Day 2 Start

    The day will end at 18:00, 15/11/2020.

  21. - Top - End - #171
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    So, the gac death is lucky and I really should have seen the JeenLeen shot coming.

    Either the aliens have a mind slaver who found a good target or the Aliens have a Vig who missed last night.

    And since gac was a universal backup, we know there's at least one more Wolf out there.

    After two nights of no Mafia kills, I'm guessing that there is likely no Mafia though they could be really unlucky.





    @rogue_alchemist as a claimed Investigator did you get anything helpful last night?

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    So, the gac death is lucky and I really should have seen the JeenLeen shot coming.

    Either the aliens have a mind slaver who found a good target or the Aliens have a Vig who missed last night.

    And since gac was a universal backup, we know there's at least one more Wolf out there.

    After two nights of no Mafia kills, I'm guessing that there is likely no Mafia though they could be really unlucky.





    @rogue_alchemist as a claimed Investigator did you get anything helpful last night?
    Sorry, I'm a bit confused. The aliens have a vig who missed? Didn't WW die to aliens? And where does a mindslaver play into any of this?

    Regardless of that, I'm voting for Captain Cap. Here's my reasoning:

    -Cap has made a lot of posts that have served to muddy waters and generally say little while attempting to appear like a Townie engaging in discussion. See AV's ISO.
    -Cap jumped off of a vote wagon to no effect on a target that turned out to be Town.
    -Elenna, an alien, voted for them first and then never threw shade his way again. It could just be a random vote, or it could be an attempt to distance.

    None of these on their own are enough to make me suspicious. But together, it's enough to grab my attention.
    Last edited by The Outsider; 2020-11-15 at 11:13 AM.
    I can see it from the outside.
    And I know you're on the inside... lookin' out.


  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Valmark's Avatar

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    Sorry, I'm a bit confused. The aliens have a vig who missed? Didn't WW die to aliens? And where does a mindslaver play into any of this?

    Regardless of that, I'm voting for Captain Cap. Here's my reasoning:

    -Cap has made a lot of posts that have served to muddy waters and generally say little while attempting to appear like a Townie engaging in discussion. See AV's ISO.
    -Cap jumped off of a vote wagon to no effect on a target that turned out to be Town.
    -Elenna, an alien, voted for them first and then never threw shade his way again. It could just be a random vote, or it could be an attempt to distance.

    None of these on their own are enough to make me suspicious. But together, it's enough to grab my attention.
    The vig would have missed last night- as for the mindslaver, it's exactly what happened last game. A mindslaver that catches the one doing the killing or a strongman can use their kill (and I'm still bothered by that. I think the interaction between strongman and mindslaver is something I actively dislike).

    At least it seems likely Mafia isn't present in the game by now, unless they've been super unlucky.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Nothing currently recruiting.


  24. - Top - End - #174
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    Sorry, I'm a bit confused. The aliens have a vig who missed? Didn't WW die to aliens? And where does a mindslaver play into any of this?
    Yeah, I wasn't very clear and wanted to get my thoughts down.

    Aliens do not have a factional kill. There are two Alien roles that can pull off a kill:

    Quote Originally Posted by Roles List
    Town or Alien Vigilante: Once per night, you can choose one target and kill that target.
    If Aliens had a Vigilante then that Vig chose to not shoot on N1 or had their kill blocked. However, gac (a player who didn't talk all of Day 2) is an odd choice for an Alien kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roles List

    Alien Mindslaver: Once per night, you can choose a player. That player's ability is blocked this night. You may activate their ability by attempting to choose a new target for it. If you choose a valid target, you use their ability on that target. You send that player to visit their target, not yourself. If you target the Strongman, their chosen kill is Strong but the kill you send them to make is not Strong. If you target the Fanatic, their conversion IS Fanatical.
    The Mindslaver (Alien version of Roleblocked) can make a kill if they target the Strongman. This is my guess for what happened: Alien Mindslaver tried blocking a Strongman and used their ability on gac, not knowing what ability they had. If the Aliens accidentally healed gac there would be no harm done.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I like the vote on Captain Cap and may join at some point but I'd like to hear from rogue_alchemist first.



    Vote Count:
    Captain Cap (1): The Outsider


    Not voting: AvatarVecna, PartyOfRogues, Zelphas, Xihirli, Valmark, plenty, Captain Cap, rogue_alchemist, CaoimhinTheCape

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Oooooooooohhh, ok. I misunderstood how mindslaver worked: I thought it was like a Witch in Town of Salem, where you redirect your target itself. I didn't realize it was a roleblock-and-copy role.
    I can see it from the outside.
    And I know you're on the inside... lookin' out.


  26. - Top - End - #176
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    Oooooooooohhh, ok. I misunderstood how mindslaver worked: I thought it was like a Witch in Town of Salem, where you redirect your target itself. I didn't realize it was a roleblock-and-copy role.
    It's not. The mindslaver redirects the target normally, but if they target a Strongman the Strongman's kill still goes through and the Mindslaver gets to aim a kill at somebody else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And if the Strongman isn't doing the kill a Mindslaver still gets the kill.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Nothing currently recruiting.


  27. - Top - End - #177
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    I should clarify that a mindslaver kill will not show up as a blaster attack - it's exactly the witch, except for the fact that we have strongmen in this game.

    (I'm not 100% satisfied with the way mindslavers work on strongmen either, but I like either of the other ways it could work even less, so...)

  28. - Top - End - #178
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    I should clarify that a mindslaver kill will not show up as a blaster attack - it's exactly the witch, except for the fact that we have strongmen in this game.
    I was wondering about that - I thought that last game the aliens copied the kill style but it was obvious the Aliens did this.

    Which means then, it is an Alien killer that got unlucky night 1.

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Xihirli's Avatar

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Huh. I was really hoping we'd taken out all the aliens.

    If they've taken a killer, may I suggest a usual suspect to mind-enslave in AvatarVecna? Nothing you've done, AV. Just if I were an alien you're who I'd mind control. It's a compliment, really.
    Last edited by Xihirli; 2020-11-13 at 11:48 PM.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Crazier Idea Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    For what it's worth, I did void AV.
    So AV was voided N1. There's the possibility that JeenLeen blocked the Alien killer Night 1 (if AV is the Alien killer) but there could have been other Roleblockers or Docs who blocked the Alien kill or saved the victim.

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