Crazier Idea Mafia

[Xihirli]

I should clarify that a mindslaver kill will not show up as a blaster attack - it's exactly the witch, except for the fact that we have strongmen in this game.

(I'm not 100% satisfied with the way mindslavers work on strongmen either, but I like either of the other ways it could work even less, so...)

Oh. Well, nevermind. I guess it's an alien faction kill. In which case I understand the wagon on CaptainCap and could be persuaded, but for now I'm a tad flummoxed.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Vote Count:
Captain Cap (1): The Outsider
AvatarVecna (1): Xihirli


Not voting: AvatarVecna, PartyOfRogues, Zelphas, Valmark, plenty, Captain Cap, rogue_alchemist, CaoimhinTheCape

[plenty]

I've just been through the thread again and I noticed something odd.

gac3, Werewolf Universal Backup, blasted night 2
Elenna, Alien Researcher, clawed to death night 1.

AvatarVecna discarded Town Jack of All Trades
gac3 discarded Town Tracking
Elenna discarded Town Tracking

Mmm good question. From what I understand it's info-gathering roles that are better for Town- but in a game with multiple factions I reckon everybody wants to get more intelligence.

Anyway, you all know it. AvatarVecna.

Valmark came up with a perfectly good reason to vote for two of the three people we now know to be non-town and then immediately disregarded it. Why was that?

[Valmark]

I've just been through the thread again and I noticed something odd.







Valmark came up with a perfectly good reason to vote for two of the three people we now know to be non-town and then immediately disregarded it. Why was that?

You mean where I said that it's not a good reason to vote for them?

(Also I don't follow, am I being accused of being both Alien and Werewolf?)

[plenty]

You mean where I said that it's not a good reason to vote for them?

You said

For the initial voting though it IS better then no idea.

And then voted AvatarVecna for no reason

(Also I don't follow, am I being accused of being both Alien and Werewolf?)

I suspect that you saw one of them was in a team with you and didn't vote for them to avoid calling attention to it.

[Valmark]

You said


And then voted AvatarVecna for no reason



I suspect that you saw one of them was in a team with you and didn't vote for them to avoid calling attention to it.

If you look at the whole post you'll see that I was replying to something else with "For the initial voting though it IS better then no idea.".

[plenty]

If you look at the whole post you'll see that I was replying to something else with "For the initial voting though it IS better then no idea.".

You said Elanna using discarded factions to choose who to vote was better than nothing but I don't see where you said using discarded powers wasn't a good idea. Can you point it out to me?

[Valmark]

You said Elanna using discarded factions to choose who to vote was better than nothing but I don't see where you said using discarded powers wasn't a good idea. Can you point it out to me?

I said that everybody would want those, which means it's not telling wether one discarded them or not.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm really tired of getting accused, and JeenLeen dying in the night is a pathetically transparent attempt to get people trying to kill me because of our public feud.

Really? Oh suuuuuure, the player who just happened to be calling you out for a ton of bad looks is actually the problematic one. Totally legit. Clearly, voiding me was a good choice, since it prevented the NK from going through. Oh wait, it didn't.

Didn't even draw a kill power or a non-town faction in the first place, I couldn't kill somebody even if I tried. Sure, there's theoretically a mafia as well as a wolf faction, but there wasn't a second kill...and certainly my power didn't interfere in anything. I'm inclined to think either we don't have a mafia, or we have a mafia that has been dealt an extremely poor hand this game (if you'll pardon the pun).

Very skeptical about JeenLeen now, not sure I like the EoN "if I die" note that immediately got fake-walked-back just in case - I've done things like that as wolf to look more town, but it's not often an actual townie does a last-minute thing like that.

AvatarVecna

R O T C O D S I V A

AV IS DOCTOR

I even left the "A" in my vote uncrossed out to try and draw attention to that. Alas.

AvatarVecna

I'll be ignoring most stuff in favor of finishing my ISOs today. Town is doing surprisingly well, actually: we're only two of the five kills so far, the Serial Killer died without getting a successful kill, one each of the WW and Aliens are dead so far, and more and more it's looking like there isn't even a mafia faction.

[plenty]

I said that everybody would want those, which means it's not telling wether one discarded them or not.

It makes it less telling but it doesn't completely negate it.

That doesn't explain why you couldn't give any reason for your vote.

[Valmark]

It makes it less telling but it doesn't completely negate it.

That doesn't explain why you couldn't give any reason for your vote.

Alright, personally I think that it's not telling. In case you were thinking I said that as an objective statement.

Right, you wouldn't know having never played with me before- first day when we have no information to go on I always vote for the first in the list that has no votes on them. It's just another way for random voting.

I really didn't expect that I'd ever have to explain my Day 1 random voting on Day 3 XD never happened before.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

I'm really tired of getting accused, and JeenLeen dying in the night is a pathetically transparent attempt to get people trying to kill me because of our public feud.


AV IS DOCTOR

When I brought you up today I didn't necessarily mean it as a hard accusation but including it as information we know, given what we learned at the beginning of the day.

We know you were blocked Day 1 but now that you've claimed who did you heal/do you know if it was successful? I don't think we have more than 2 kills per night at this point but might as well ask.

[plenty]

Alright, personally I think that it's not telling. In case you were thinking I said that as an objective statement.

Right, you wouldn't know having never played with me before- first day when we have no information to go on I always vote for the first in the list that has no votes on them. It's just another way for random voting.

I really didn't expect that I'd ever have to explain my Day 1 random voting on Day 3 XD never happened before.

I just looked at past games and that does check out. I can't see one where there was any logic before your first post but I've removed my vote.

[AvatarVecna]

When I brought you up today I didn't necessarily mean it as a hard accusation but including it as information we know, given what we learned at the beginning of the day.

We know you were blocked Day 1 but now that you've claimed who did you heal/do you know if it was successful? I don't think we have more than 2 kills per night at this point but might as well ask.

I protected myself last night, as I attempted to do N1 but was prevented from doing so. Quite frankly I'm surprised I didn't die N1. I've received no feedback beyond confirmation of the attempts to use my power, so no idea if somebody tried to kill me last night or not. In hindsight, protecting JeenLeen to head off this exact kind of "kill that reflects poorly on AV" might've been a good move, but eh.

[rogue_alchemist]

Last night I attempted to investigate CaptainCap, but got no result. Seems like I was blocked or alien protector covered them. I don't remember another way to get "no result" specifically.

Edit: Seems pretty damning to me CaptainCap

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Considering rogue_alchemist's post, I'm happy to throw a vote on Captain Cap for now and put some more pressure on him.

On that note, I think we also had a partial claim from PartyOfRogues so it might help us to know what you did last night.



Vote Count:
Captain Cap (3): The Outsider, CaoimhinTheCape, rogue_alchemist
AvatarVecna (2): Xihirli, AvatarVecna


Not voting: PartyOfRogues, Zelphas, Valmark, plenty, Captain Cap

[Xihirli]

Would being voided not give you "no result"?

[The Outsider]

Being voided would, as would an Alien Protector. There's one other possibility though: that Captain Cap is an Alien Psychotrooper/WW Secret agent. However, that would mean that RA is an evil investigative role, since those are the only ones that get no result in that scenario. It's a possibility, but not a very likely one.

[Valmark]

I'm not sure I understand why getting no result means CC is evil? Or at least why it's "pretty damning"?

[Xihirli]

Yyyyyeah, I'm not seeing it. You could have been voided, Rogue.
And I notice the result you got seems tailored to on the surface seem pretty damning while simultaneously not staking your reputation or ability to scry on what the result is. Like "oops, we killed Town Protector! Guess I was voided!"
Simultaneously playing it safe and trying to get someone killed makes me want to point the finger back at you, rogue_alchemist.

[The Outsider]

I'm honestly not sure about that part either. I'm voting CC due to my aforementioned reasons, and it is possible that an Alien Protector covered them up and created the "no result." But the "pretty damning" quote confuses me.

[Captain Cap]

Last night I attempted to investigate CaptainCap, but got no result. Seems like I was blocked or alien protector covered them. I don't remember another way to get "no result" specifically.

Edit: Seems pretty damning to me CaptainCap

From the first post, the possible ways an Investigative could get NO RESULT are:

• The target is a WW/Mafia/Alien Innocent-Looking and the Investigative is WW/Mafia
  

  Mafia or Cult Secret Agent: If investigated during the night by a seer, you are listed as TOWN. If you are investigated during the night by a spy, you give NO RESULT. If you are investigated by a researcher, you give TOWN INNOCENT CHILD.
  
  Alien Psychotrooper: Once only, at night, you can use your ability. Whether or not your ability is active, you have the powers of a secret agent above. If you activate your ability, ALL investigations are incorrect.

• The Investigative is blocked (directly by a Roleblocking or indirectly by the Alien Protector)
  

  Town, Mafia or Cult Roleblocker: Once per night, you can choose a player. That player's ability is blocked tonight. If they attempt to gather information, they will receive NO RESULT.
  
  Alien Mindslaver: Once per night, you can choose a player. That player's ability is blocked this night.
  
  Alien Protector: Once per night, you can choose a player. You block everything targeting that player the same night. You cannot target yourself twice consecutively.

• The Alien Psychotrooper activate their power and possibly returns a NO RESULT (it should be noted that the text refers to "incorrect" investigations, thus getting NO RESULT could be just a possibility, not the norm)

I would surely be a baddie in only two cases: the Alien Protector protected me or I'm a bad Innocent-Looking and you're a Werewolf Spy. Now, you're able to learn factions, according to your Day 2 intervention, so you're either Town or Alien and the second case would be impossible.
This seems far from "pretty damning" to me.

Honestly, I would have considered you being blocked by a voider the most likely possibility (you claimed a powerful role yesterday, so it's reasonable you drew unwanted attention), but this over-eagerness to put me on the stakes is a bit suspicious, as Xihirli already mentioned. The Outsider makes fair points about why is voting me, however you just bring to the table the supposed result of your investigation and label it as "pretty damning" when in reality it is not.

At the moment I've nothing better to go by, so rogue_alchemist

[AvatarVecna]

AvatarVecna
Valmark
The Outsider
PartyOfRogues
Xihirli
Captain Cap
rogue_alchemist
CaomhinTheCape
Zelphas
plenty

SK dead, who wasn't networked with anybody. Alien dead, who died early enough that we have nothing to go on. WW dead, who was so quiet we have nothing to go on.

I really don't like how quiet things have gotten. >.<

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Wanted to break down the rogue_alchemist vs. Captain Cap options. Based on rogue_alchemist getting SK yesterday, I'm assuming he is Town or Alien.

Spoiler: RA vs CC

Show

rogue_alchemist - Town and Captain Cap - Town

Only way this works is if a third party blocked rogue_alchemist.

rogue_alchemist - Town and Captain Cap - Wolf/Mafia

Only way this works is if someone blocked rogue_alchemist.

rogue_alchemist - Town and Captain Cap - Alien

Only way this works is if someone blocked rogue_alchemist.

rogue_alchemist - Alien and Captain Cap - Town

Only way this works is if someone blocked rogue_alchemist. Rogue_alchemist could lie in this case and not be blocked but would be suspicious immediately after.

rogue_alchemist - Alien and Captain Cap - Wolf/Mafia

Works if rogue_alchemist was blocked or if it went through like normal.

Really, I find myself agreeing with Captain Cap's analysis so rogue_alchemist why are you so sure about that?

Captain Cap if you are town is there any way we can clear you and knock out some of these possibilities?

In terms of what happened to RA, it's very possible he was blocked. We know Jeen Leen was a roleblocker but I don't see Jeen blocking RA. So there is the possibility of another roleblocker around.


Avatar Vecna I'm curious where you come down on RA vs CC. At this point voting yourself means we don't get to analyze any of your voting patterns and I don't like that.

Valmark and plenty have posted but don't currently have a vote down. I'm curious what side they take too as it'll help if/when either of them flips.

PartyOfRogues and Zelphas have not posted at all today which has me worried that they're happy with the lynch going to Captain Cap or Rogue_alchemist.

---

Vote Count:
Captain Cap (2): The Outsider, rogue_alchemist
AvatarVecna (1): AvatarVecna
rogue_alchemist (3): Xihirli, Captain Cap, CaoimhinTheCape


Not voting: PartyOfRogues, Zelphas, Valmark, plenty

- - - Updated - - -

One thing I didn't include in my list is what CC brought up, Alien Psychotrooper could have messed with everything but that works regardless of any alignment and I'm more inclined to believe someone directly roleblocked the claimed Invest.

[AvatarVecna]

Came back to Cap ISO after sleeping on things a bit

Removed my vote.

This actually makes me a bit suspicious of Cap. By CC's own words earlier in the day, an Apogee lynch is safe even if Apogee was truthful (which we now know he wasn't), and we know that CC knew Apogee was the other wagon. But with the way things panned out, if CC had voted Apogee, I think Caerulea would've lived, so why remove vote entirely instead of switching wagons? CC had 5 minutes from Cae's claim, and if CC is town they clearly believed the claim enough to not want Cae dead, so why not vote for the opposing wagon? CC clearly had time to both undo the old vote and to make this new post. And then he joins the push on Apogee the next day at minimal prompting. For context, D1 Cap questions people on both the Caerulea and Apogee wagons trying to get an idea of how they're thinking, but D2 he jumps on the Apogee wagon, apparently just trusting Xihirli sight unseen? What???

...and now for the big post from Cap:

From the first post, the possible ways an Investigative could get NO RESULT are:

• The target is a WW/Mafia/Alien Innocent-Looking and the Investigative is WW/Mafia
  
• The Investigative is blocked (directly by a Roleblocking or indirectly by the Alien Protector)
  
• The Alien Psychotrooper activate their power and possibly returns a NO RESULT (it should be noted that the text refers to "incorrect" investigations, thus getting NO RESULT could be just a possibility, not the norm)

I would surely be a baddie in only two cases: the Alien Protector protected me or I'm a bad Innocent-Looking and you're a Werewolf Spy. Now, you're able to learn factions, according to your Day 2 intervention, so you're either Town or Alien and the second case would be impossible.
This seems far from "pretty damning" to me.

Honestly, I would have considered you being blocked by a voider the most likely possibility (you claimed a powerful role yesterday, so it's reasonable you drew unwanted attention), but this over-eagerness to put me on the stakes is a bit suspicious, as Xihirli already mentioned. The Outsider makes fair points about why is voting me, however you just bring to the table the supposed result of your investigation and label it as "pretty damning" when in reality it is not.

At the moment I've nothing better to go by, so rogue_alchemist

I'd like to address the portion I've bolded/underlined by rephrasing the three options Cap has presented here. The three possibilities that result in NO RESULT for a scry are:

1) CC is scum-innocent, and RA is scum-seer.

2) RA was voided by somebody.

3) All seers were voided by Aliens.

So here's the thing: in case 2 and 3, neither one says anything about Cap's alignment at all. If somebody stands up right now and says "I voided RA last night", that doesn't mean Captain Cap is town. It just means that the one specific possibility that would prove Cap guilty isn't specifically on the table anymore, but it doesn't clear Cap's name by any means.

What's more, let's pretend that Cap is 100% right and RA is a scum-seer who's trying to finger Cap. Here's the hypothetical timeline of events:

Spoiler

Show

1) scum-seer RA scries CC.

2) RA gets NO RESULT for CC.

3) RA knows RA is a scum-seer, and can therefore conclude that CC is a scum-innocent.

4) RA then...essentially publicly admits to being a scum-seer in order to take down CC?

That doesn't make sense to me. Here's what makes sense to me:

Spoiler

Show

1) RA claims town-seer publicly D2.

2) A scum-faction voids RA in the night, because of that claim.

3) RA scries CC.

4) RA gets NO RESULT for CC.

5) RA gets excited thinking they've caught somebody who can't be scried, and doesn't realize that they shouldn't get that result unless they were voided.

RA's post reads a lot more like "overeager townie" than "scum overplaying their hand". And even if the latter is true, that still means CC is scum.

So here's my thought: today, we lynch Captain Cap, for their weird play through the game and the weird reaction to RA's accusation. If they flip town, that's unfortunate. If they flip scum-innocent, then tomorrow we lynch RA just in case. If they flip some other kind of scum, we leave RA alone and look elsewhere for a bit. Thoughts?

[Valmark]

Currently I'm not voting because I'm hoping RA will reply to what was said- that 'pretty damning' is so weird given the plausible explanation that they got voided.

- - - Updated - - -

Came back to Cap ISO after sleeping on things a bit



This actually makes me a bit suspicious of Cap. By CC's own words earlier in the day, an Apogee lynch is safe even if Apogee was truthful (which we now know he wasn't), and we know that CC knew Apogee was the other wagon. But with the way things panned out, if CC had voted Apogee, I think Caerulea would've lived, so why remove vote entirely instead of switching wagons? CC had 5 minutes from Cae's claim, and if CC is town they clearly believed the claim enough to not want Cae dead, so why not vote for the opposing wagon? CC clearly had time to both undo the old vote and to make this new post. And then he joins the push on Apogee the next day at minimal prompting. For context, D1 Cap questions people on both the Caerulea and Apogee wagons trying to get an idea of how they're thinking, but D2 he jumps on the Apogee wagon, apparently just trusting Xihirli sight unseen? What???

...and now for the big post from Cap:



I'd like to address the portion I've bolded/underlined by rephrasing the three options Cap has presented here. The three possibilities that result in NO RESULT for a scry are:

1) CC is scum-innocent, and RA is scum-seer.

2) RA was voided by somebody.

3) All seers were voided by Aliens.

So here's the thing: in case 2 and 3, neither one says anything about Cap's alignment at all. If somebody stands up right now and says "I voided RA last night", that doesn't mean Captain Cap is town. It just means that the one specific possibility that would prove Cap guilty isn't specifically on the table anymore, but it doesn't clear Cap's name by any means.

What's more, let's pretend that Cap is 100% right and RA is a scum-seer who's trying to finger Cap. Here's the hypothetical timeline of events:

Spoiler

Show

1) scum-seer RA scries CC.

2) RA gets NO RESULT for CC.

3) RA knows RA is a scum-seer, and can therefore conclude that CC is a scum-innocent.

4) RA then...essentially publicly admits to being a scum-seer in order to take down CC?

That doesn't make sense to me. Here's what makes sense to me:

Spoiler

Show

1) RA claims town-seer publicly D2.

2) A scum-faction voids RA in the night, because of that claim.

3) RA scries CC.

4) RA gets NO RESULT for CC.

5) RA gets excited thinking they've caught somebody who can't be scried, and doesn't realize that they shouldn't get that result unless they were voided.

RA's post reads a lot more like "overeager townie" than "scum overplaying their hand". And even if the latter is true, that still means CC is scum.

So here's my thought: today, we lynch Captain Cap, for their weird play through the game and the weird reaction to RA's accusation. If they flip town, that's unfortunate. If they flip scum-innocent, then tomorrow we lynch RA just in case. If they flip some other kind of scum, we leave RA alone and look elsewhere for a bit. Thoughts?

Even to me it looks weird that RA would expose themselves to catch CC- especially with a perfectly plausible option.

And the points you bring up about CC (can't recall if those were the same Outsider mentioned) seem valid- I wouldn't be against that plan, though I'd still like to see first what the two involved (RA and CC) explain themselves.

[Captain Cap]

Came back to Cap ISO after sleeping on things a bit
This actually makes me a bit suspicious of Cap. By CC's own words earlier in the day, an Apogee lynch is safe even if Apogee was truthful (which we now know he wasn't), and we know that CC knew Apogee was the other wagon. But with the way things panned out, if CC had voted Apogee, I think Caerulea would've lived, so why remove vote entirely instead of switching wagons? CC had 5 minutes from Cae's claim, and if CC is town they clearly believed the claim enough to not want Cae dead, so why not vote for the opposing wagon? CC clearly had time to both undo the old vote and to make this new post. And then he joins the push on Apogee the next day at minimal prompting. For context, D1 Cap questions people on both the Caerulea and Apogee wagons trying to get an idea of how they're thinking, but D2 he jumps on the Apogee wagon, apparently just trusting Xihirli sight unseen? What???

I understand perfectly why that's suspicious: the reason I didn't switch wagon is because in those 5 minutes I was in the middle of something else in real life (at first I've even missed Caerulea's claim, when I responded to her question about QT) and I had lost track of the situation. When I realized she claimed, the first thought that crossed my mind was "Ok, I got what I wanted, let's remove the vote", then a few seconds later Unavenger called the Day.
Basically, I effed up and I wouldn't really blame anyone for not believing me.

Came back to Cap ISO after sleeping on things a bit
...and now for the big post from Cap:



I'd like to address the portion I've bolded/underlined by rephrasing the three options Cap has presented here. The three possibilities that result in NO RESULT for a scry are:

1) CC is scum-innocent, and RA is scum-seer.

2) RA was voided by somebody.

3) All seers were voided by Aliens.

So here's the thing: in case 2 and 3, neither one says anything about Cap's alignment at all. If somebody stands up right now and says "I voided RA last night", that doesn't mean Captain Cap is town. It just means that the one specific possibility that would prove Cap guilty isn't specifically on the table anymore, but it doesn't clear Cap's name by any means.

What's more, let's pretend that Cap is 100% right and RA is a scum-seer who's trying to finger Cap. Here's the hypothetical timeline of events:

Spoiler

Show

1) scum-seer RA scries CC.

2) RA gets NO RESULT for CC.

3) RA knows RA is a scum-seer, and can therefore conclude that CC is a scum-innocent.

4) RA then...essentially publicly admits to being a scum-seer in order to take down CC?

RA's post reads a lot more like "overeager townie" than "scum overplaying their hand". And even if the latter is true, that still means CC is scum.

I think you misunderstood my point, in fact in my comment point out how the case you're analysing is actually impossible: rogue_alchemist learns about factions, so he's either Town or Alien Investigative, and in none of these cases he would get NO RESULT from an Innocent-looking (unless voided).
He didn't explicitly said it in the comment, but he mentioned the possibility of the Alien Protector messing with the investigation, so I think this is the case on which he actually bases the "pretty damning" evidence, not the scum investigating scum stuff.

That doesn't make sense to me. Here's what makes sense to me:

Spoiler

Show

1) RA claims town-seer publicly D2.

2) A scum-faction voids RA in the night, because of that claim.

3) RA scries CC.

4) RA gets NO RESULT for CC.

5) RA gets excited thinking they've caught somebody who can't be scried, and doesn't realize that they shouldn't get that result unless they were voided.

Except from RA's comment he seems to be aware of the possible cases.

Last night I attempted to investigate CaptainCap, but got no result. Seems like I was blocked or alien protector covered them. I don't remember another way to get "no result" specifically.

Thus I don't see how the "doesn't realize" part could be relevant.

So here's my thought: today, we lynch Captain Cap, for their weird play through the game and the weird reaction to RA's accusation. If they flip town, that's unfortunate. If they flip scum-innocent, then tomorrow we lynch RA just in case. If they flip some other kind of scum, we leave RA alone and look elsewhere for a bit. Thoughts?

Well, since you're asking, I think you shouldn't lynch me.

[AvatarVecna]

I got the small ISOs out of the way here. TO, Xi, and Val are coming.

Spoiler: PartyOfRouges ISO

Show

RNGesus says that Apogee1 is quite suspicious.

NAI.

RNGesus was right all along! I also roleblocked Apogee1 last night, I didn’t trust his claim, and I couldn’t think of any better targets

NAI. Although...we now know JeenLeen was town roleblocker. Weird if we got two TRs.

Praise RNGesus for his guidance

...I really don't like how much POR is leaning on RNGesus in their posting, especially given how little they're posting.

There's basically nothing to go on here, and what there is...isn't great. GTH my guess is that POR is scum-roleblocker and blocked RA last night, but that's entirely guesswork based on "they're the other person who's claimed roleblocker", and that's about it. That and my general distaste for low-activity players. >.>

Spoiler: plenty ISO

Show

I think that the innocent looking child is probably the most useful to town.

Valmark discarded it.

I appreciate the attempt at a real reason to vote somebody D1 from a newer player.

I can see how that would look suspicious. I'm naturally a quiet person and I haven't really had much to add.

...

The more I think about it the less sense it makes for Xihirli to be lying. It would only make sense if she expects to win tonight.

I vote Apogee1

This post would look really bad if Apogee had flipped some kind of faction scum. As is, it's just disappointing.

I've just been through the thread again and I noticed something odd.







Valmark came up with a perfectly good reason to vote for two of the three people we now know to be non-town and then immediately disregarded it. Why was that?

You said


And then voted AvatarVecna for no reason



I suspect that you saw one of them was in a team with you and didn't vote for them to avoid calling attention to it.

You said Elanna using discarded factions to choose who to vote was better than nothing but I don't see where you said using discarded powers wasn't a good idea. Can you point it out to me?

It makes it less telling but it doesn't completely negate it.

That doesn't explain why you couldn't give any reason for your vote.

I just looked at past games and that does check out. I can't see one where there was any logic before your first post but I've removed my vote.

...okay that's an actually good point from one of the new players. Granted I don't suspect Valmark for voting per their meta, and Valmark's responses make sense, but it's still nice to see some analysis and questioning from a newbie. I really appreciate the effort. I say townie points for plenty because if they're in a faction and their faction-mate let them flub a push like that, that's pretty stone-cold hanging the new player out to dry lol

Leaning town for this one, and while I'm glad for the attempted interrogation, I'd like to see that energy continue.

Spoiler: rogue_alchemist ISO

Show

FOS on Captain Cap for carrying over old grudges!
Having been protective role in the last 3-4 games I've played here, I fully understand wanting to throw it away as a boring role, but it is very important to town winning. Therefore I vote Caerulea, as the other person who did it is a newbie that might not know and we have a tradition of not voting newbs anyways.

NAI.

isn't it 1845 GMT? Seems like night should have ended 45 mins ago.

NAI.

I know this is dangerous but I can't tell all I want to without claiming. My cards were: Town JOAT (didn't want to balance a bunch of 1-off powers), Alien Investigate, and Town Tracking. It was honestly a toss-up between investigate and tracking, but I went Town Investigate and discarded Town JOAT.

The reason I wanted to claim is I investigated Apogee1 last night and can confirm they are Serial Killer.

I haven't been active today because work called and told me last night that I have been identified as coming into contact with someone who tested positive for COVID. I have been trying to scramble and figure out testing and how to isolate from spouse and kid. I likely won't be available much until closer to the end of this day phase, but had to share.

Hopefully someone else town will save me tonight.

Vote Apogee1

This is the part where I lean town for RA. If RA is scum-seer, and scried Apogee as Serial Killer, then RA knows Xihirli is probably telling the truth and is thus probably town? But if RA thinks Apogee is SK and Xihirli is town...why not keep quiet and vote Xihirli? Voting Apogee takes a kill off the table, which cuts down on everybody's ability to gather info and gives RA's faction the advantage. But speaking up and saying "Im the investigative" is even worse for scum-seer RA, because now not only is there not gonna be a N2 NK from the SK, but RA is probably going to get blocked.

It makes no sense for RA to speak up like that if they're scum, unless they're on Xihirli's team. That's certainly possible, but it's a lot more specific of an accusation.

Last night I attempted to investigate CaptainCap, but got no result. Seems like I was blocked or alien protector covered them. I don't remember another way to get "no result" specifically.

Edit: Seems pretty damning to me CaptainCap

I've already said my piece on this: this reads more like "overeager townie who made a mistake" than "scum accidentally playing their hand". Both are misplays, but the townie-misplay feels a lot more likely than the scum misplay. Again, I don't see RA's factionmates letting them use their NO RESULT scry to accuse Cap when there's obvious ways that argument could be countered.

I'm feeling town here, but I might be wrong. If RA flips scum, maybe look at Xihirli idk

Spoiler: Zelphas ISO

Show

I'm hurt, Apogee1.

I think I understand your reasoning, but I'm hurt.

I'm still getting the hang of how all the roles are supposed to work, so I might have made some non-optimal choices with my role selection. I guess I'll find out how poorly I chose as the game progresses... provided I survive, of course.

NAI. Last bit feels a little weird, but I might just be paranoid.

Hmm I kinda see JeenLeen's argument that voting a new player isn't very useful when you know that new players very rarely get voted off D1, so it could maybe be good distancing?
OTOH I don't see anything particularly unusual about Zelphas' response to the vote, it's basically just an OMGUS* vote as far as I can tell, which isn't great but it's pretty normal D1. Jeen seems to be arguing that it's harmless because Zelphas can easily switch off, but that's true of all the joke votes that have been made. So, eh, I see what Jeen is going for but IMO it's an even weaker argument than Jeen thinks it is.

Anyways, definitely not voting for Apogee now, I don't want to have one huge wagon just based on a weak argument. Better to have multiple competing wagons D1 for future analysis.

The speed of the wagon springing up is definitely weird, and it makes me a little more inclined to trust Apogee, although much less than I would be in a game with only one evil faction. Still, it makes sense that someone in a non-town faction might want Apogee to be lynched as an easy target. The Apogee votes are as follows:

• Early D1, PartyOfRouges votes Apogee based on RNG
• Later, Apogee votes Zelphas for discarding investigative.
• Zelphas responds with an OMGUS vote
• Jeen accuses Apogee and Zelphas of being aliens together, and votes Apogee
• Xihirli jumps on the Apogee wagon to "see where it goes"
• Outsider jumps on the Apogee wagon because "We don't really have anything better to go on"

So it's really only Xi and Outsider who could be voting because they needed an easy excuse to jump on a wagon. I'm not seeing any particular difference between them tone-wise, but tbh I'm not very good at judging people's tone.
I'd be down to switch to either Xi or Outsider if other people are interested.


Wait, then why did you list Jeen as more likely to be a wolf than Outsider earlier?


Eh, I can kinda see it, I guess? See earlier comment about being bad at tone.
That being said, my vote isn't doing any good by itself on Captain Cap. And I like this argument better than the one for Apogee or the one for AV. (The argument against AV seems mainly to be that they're unlikely to pick town, which is true, but based on the previous game it's also true of almost everyone, so it's not really helpful.) So I'll move my vote to Caerulea. Let's see what happens with a second three-vote wagon, I guess?

*OMGUS = Oh My God U Suck, a vote cast with no reasoning beyond "you voted for me".

...okay so this is cheating a bit but it's relevant to Zelphas stuff. Restating the timeline with some extras:

1) POR votes Apogee on RNG.
2) Apogee votes Zelphas for discarding seer.
3) Zelphas OMGUS votes Apogee.
4) JeenLeen accuses them of being aliens together, and votes Apogee.
5) Xihirli and The Outsider jump on Apogee wagon for little reason.
6) Elenna says 5 looks pretty sus and thinks it's weird this is even being taken seriously.
7) Elenna flips alien in the night.
8) ...

That makes sense; this game seems to be all about information, and so anyone who's miserly with their info feels suspicious immediately.

I voted Apogee1 on Day 1 because I knew I needed to vote someone and I had no information to go on. Apogee1 voted me, and I thought that voting him back would be an easy, harmless vote that would qualify as participating in the round without throwing suspicion any particular way, as I learned what was going on. I misunderstood the sheer depth of the metagame, however, so that was a good learning experience for me.

For this round... I'm going to vote AvatarVecna. The suspicions on Apogee1 make a lot of sense, but they aren't enough for me to double down on him, especially since my first-day vote had essentially no weight behind it. Plus, AvatarVecna seems somewhat unhappy with her role; if this is a ploy, I'll take it as another learning experience, I suppose.

8) Zelphas shows up way later, dismisses the D1 stuff about them as complicated metagame they didn't feel able to properly respond to, and then jumps on my wagon even though there's a serious Thunderdome going on between Apogee and Xihirli.

That really looks like Zelphas is an alien who panicked at getting accused of being one, disappeared, Elenna took over defending for her scumbuddy, and then Zelphas came back way later trying to play dumb about the whole thing. I know this is a huge stretch, but that's my gut instinct about this whole series of events.

It also doesn't help that Zelphas only really reappeared after getting called out on being quiet, and threw down a vote with no regard to what was publicly going on. It's really not a good look.

Okay, this blew up. To reply to the direct question to me:



I don't currently have any evidence to say that she's telling the truth or that she's lying, so I didn't want to weigh in. I realize after all the other responses that I'm playing this way too cautiously, which I'll need to work on.



Thanks for the clarifications, JeenLeen; that all makes some sense.



That's a good point; I didn't want to trust either of them, so I was trying to stay out of the conflict. That's probably a futile effort, given the resulting messages.

At this point, it's unlikely that I'm going to escape any sort of suspicion this round; if I leave my vote on AV, it looks odd, but if I switch to either Xihirli or Apogee1 I ally myself with their arguments (And therefore raise suspicion on myself if they are proven wrong). Thinking it over, I think it may be better to choose a side (for this round, at least).

Therefore, I'm swapping my vote to Apogee1. The arguments against Apogee seem stronger than those against Xihirli, though once again I may be misreading the situation.

If this is a townie just genuinely not paying attention to the seriousness of the discussion going on, I'm disappointed. But I think this is scum. Alien gets called out as alien, panics and goes inactive. Gets called out as inactive, panics and slaps down a vote without really reading the thread. Gets called out as ignoring the real debate going on, panics and slaps down a more relevant vote. And that was almost exactly four days ago. Looks like we're back to inactive again, huh?

Giant gut feeling, since there's so little to go on, but my gut says Zelphas is newb alien.

[Xihirli]

Another note: Scum!RA doesn't have to have an actual scry power to know that Cap isn't on their team. I see two situations that lead to Scum!Ra leveling this accusation at Cap that don't include RA having a scry.

- A different member of their faction has a scry and IDed Cap as dangerous.
- Cap already had suspicion on them, RA just wanted to get everyone behind lynching Cap to keep discussion closed around one wagon and misjudged how "damning" their evidence really was

And I did think of a few others but they're all just a subset of the two above.
And this doesn't get Cap off the hook. In fact, if RA flips wolf I'll suspect Cap of being alien, or vice-versa, and this was a play to remove a particular scum's power role while scoring town points.

Now, if Rogue has an actual scry result on Cap as a scum, why not just say that? Point. We can burn that bridge when we cross a river over two birds in a glass castle.

- - - Updated - - -

...Huh. Those new ISOs certainly are interesting. And convincing, in fact. Particularly that on Zelphas. If that wagon doesn't go anywhere, AV has already convinced me to get off of RA and onto Cap as far as that bit goes.
Kinda even as I was writing the Scum!RA scenarios I could feel them being far-fetched, particularly when I was verging into "what if they're opposite scum", and RA sticking their neck out like that to get someone killed is definitely more Town than what my initial gut reaction "wait! That means nothing!" was.

[AvatarVecna]

For unrelated reasons, I'm actually a bit less suspicious of Captain Cap right now.

Another note: Scum!RA doesn't have to have an actual scry power to know that Cap isn't on their team. I see two situations that lead to Scum!Ra leveling this accusation at Cap that don't include RA having a scry.

- A different member of their faction has a scry and IDed Cap as dangerous.
- Cap already had suspicion on them, RA just wanted to get everyone behind lynching Cap to keep discussion closed around one wagon and misjudged how "damning" their evidence really was

And I did think of a few others but they're all just a subset of the two above.
And this doesn't get Cap off the hook. In fact, if RA flips wolf I'll suspect Cap of being alien, or vice-versa, and this was a play to remove a particular scum's power role while scoring town points.

Now, if Rogue has an actual scry result on Cap as a scum, why not just say that? Point. We can burn that bridge when we cross a river over two birds in a glass castle.

"I think scum!RA is more likely than you're giving it credit for!"

...Huh. Those new ISOs certainly are interesting. And convincing, in fact. Particularly that on Zelphas. If that wagon doesn't go anywhere, AV has already convinced me to get off of RA and onto Cap as far as that bit goes.
Kinda even as I was writing the Scum!RA scenarios I could feel them being far-fetched, particularly when I was verging into "what if they're opposite scum", and RA sticking their neck out like that to get someone killed is definitely more Town than what my initial gut reaction "wait! That means nothing!" was.

*sees ISO saying scum!RA makes more sense if they're scumbuddies with Xihirli*

"On second thought, perhaps I was a bit hasty..."

Mhmmmmmmm