DMing advice needed

[Shotaro]

OK so I've got a player with a well known history of spitting out his dummies..

He has been away for a while and decided to play an elven rogue introduced last session and as yet has not done anything even slightly rogue-ish. He called me today and asked me about tweaking his character to have "better" (meaning broken) diplomacy - I agreed knowing that the world is high-level and I'm using the Giants diplomacy rule. He then told me his elven rogue is becoming a half-elf bard and I told him change race or class not both and he slammed the phone down on me...

Was I being unreasonable or I am reading the situation correctly in the sense that he's acting like a 4 year old and saying "I want it my way always if its not my way I won't do it!" I could ask him to roleplay a race change (getting pissed off at being called an elf all the time when he's a half-elf) and a class change is no problem at this stage but I think allowing him to do both because its (more) broken 5th level, diplomacy +23 minimum for either build is just going to cause problems especially since he'll be a bard....

I hate making enemies over a game and just need reassurance that I've done the right thing.

[Kurald Galain]

Was I being unreasonable or I am reading the situation correctly in the sense that he's acting like a 4 year old and saying "I want it my way always if its not my way I won't do it!"

Assuming that you were talking to him in a friendly manner, then yes he is being a total duck. How old is this guy, anyway?

Ask yourself this: do you really want to game with the kind of person that actually makes enemies over a game?

[Suzuro]

Personally I think that you're doing the right thing. They seem to just being a little baby and wants everything their way or they'll throw a tissy fit. I'm sorry that you had to go through stuff like that, and I know it's hard, we've got a guy in our group who makes some "Deliberate Alterations" TO some things, and it kind of sucks.

Over all though, I say bravo to you for standing up to them, if they don't learn that everything is not the way they want it to be, then what we'll have is someone who is extraordinarily spoiled.

-Suzuro

[Burrito]

No, your not being unreasonable.

If he really wants to play, he will still play, just make sure he knows there are lines he can cross and those he cannot. The other players can see that, maybe you can have one of them try and explain it better.

On the other hand, if you really want him to play, then you can just let him go for the whole Diplomacy thing, and just make sure the bag guys all have all sorts of magical/holy equipment that gives them outrageous saves against thst kind of stuff. ;)

[Hagentai]

I'm all for pc rights. But how many players do you have buddy? I'm the first person to call a dm a power craving butthole but.. yes your friend was being a nutt sack.

It's simple, if he's milking diplomacy throw something at him with a lang he doesn't know or that doesn't speak.

Or you could say that diplomacy is mind affecting and.. we all know how many monsters work right around bs like that (LOL).

Diplomacy is a cute tool. It's not everything. It shouldn't be everything to a player.. or a DM! Hell I've had players with super b.s. Hide checks. Now that gets way more annoying.

Further more.. Not a big fan of letting players make last minute changes to characters. Unless the character is that weak.... Don't let him. And if it's that weak of a build he really ought to play something else.

[brian c]

I would say you're acting reasonably, but one comment: If he only used the character for one session, then perhaps letting him start over would make sense. If you run your game carefully (and sanely) then it shouldn't get too out of hand, and if that's what he wants fine. If this were after several sessions I would say absolutely not, but from only one session it's not a big deal to change your mind about the character.

[Nonah_Me]

You said your friend had been away for a while. Did that mean he played with you before, and was using that elf rogue?


If that's the case, I don't see a problem with letting him take a mulligan. You could even rule that he has to use the same stat numbers, just switch them around.

However, don't let this friend (edit: misspelled friend...again.) walk all over you. Acting like a petulant seven year old who doesn't get what he wants should not work. I'd deny him simply on that reason. If he acted like that IRL, how is he going to act in game?

[Shotaro]

Thanks for your help and any other advice you can offer would be appreciated.

@Hagentai - Yeah I am prepared to compromise with him but he needs to understand that when dealing with PCs his argument is simply always "Very Good" that doesn't mean the 8int dwarf with a grudge and a volitile (to say the least) temper is going to agree that we should let the merchant selling food to peasents for 3gp/day go (though he can always try to diplomance the merchant into changing his ways) - He also won't be able to effect major NPCs in the campaign (most if not all of the major players are into epic levels and beyond - the BBEG is a demi-god for crying out loud.) The build he had wasn't weak - but his other build would've derailed the campaign due to petty larceny etc in a world thats majorly screwed and has no economy whatsoever they're gonna be dealing with tradesmen who are selling a days food for 3gp and the likes. so someone with good diplomacy is needed for these guys to hang on to their alignments.

@Brian - I agree but at the same time this guy is notorious for doing things like this and has been given dummies (pacifiers) as a gift several times as a result.

@Nonah - he's been away for 9 months his original character in this campaign was a Wizard who he built as LE with the intent of betraying the party. which I loved because frankly the group is huge anyway....

[BizzaroStormy]

Thanks for your help and any other advice you can offer would be appreciated.

@Hagentai - Yeah I am prepared to compromise with him but he needs to understand that when dealing with PCs his argument is simply always "Very Good" that doesn't mean the 8int dwarf with a grudge and a volitile (to say the least) temper is going to agree that we should let the merchant selling food to peasents for 3gp/day go (though he can always try to diplomance the merchant into changing his ways) - He also won't be able to effect major NPCs in the campaign (most if not all of the major players are into epic levels and beyond - the BBEG is a demi-god for crying out loud.) The build he had wasn't weak - but his other build would've derailed the campaign due to petty larceny etc in a world thats majorly screwed and has no economy whatsoever they're gonna be dealing with tradesmen who are selling a days food for 3gp and the likes. so someone with good diplomacy is needed for these guys to hang on to their alignments.

@Brian - I agree but at the same time this guy is notorious for doing things like this and has been given dummies (pacifiers) as a gift several times as a result.

@Nonah - he's been away for 9 months his original character in this campaign was a Wizard who he built as LE with the intent of betraying the party. which I loved because frankly the group is huge anyway....

Personally, i would have a trap for him that (if he does try to disarm) is just a smidgen to high level for him and he ends up poisoned or on fire...or filled with flaming poison.

[Miles Invictus]

@Nonah - he's been away for 9 months his original character in this campaign was a Wizard who he built as LE with the intent of betraying the party. which I loved because frankly the group is huge anyway....

If you kick him out, you'll reduce the size of the group and get rid of what sounds like a problem player.

[AslanCross]

I don't think keeping such a person around is worth it. If he's notorious for it, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you let him continue. People like that need to hear the word "no" more often.

[leperkhaun]

You are bieng reasonable.

There could be a comprimise. let him change his race. There is a book which has rules for slowly changing a characters class.

You might let him do that.

I forgot which book its in, but im sure someone else could pop in with it.

Also depending on what he did with his character, you could allow him to do both. If he really didnt do much then you could let him change both and let him know that will be the last time, but if he made major use of his rogueish abilities then i wouldnt.

[Kurald Galain]

or filled with flaming poison.

Actually, electric radioactive acid is way more fun

[Bryn]

I forgot which book its in, but im sure someone else could pop in with it.

*Pops in* Class and race retraining rules are in the Players Handbook 2. Race retraining, IIRC, needs a quest to happen. *Pops out*

[Blanks]

and he slammed the phone down on me...

Thats an apology right there before i would even speak to the guy

[daggaz]

Are you kidding me?

He wants to totally change his character sheet, in the interests of power gaming, while already started in the game!

This is a flat out NO in my group. I allow small changes (feat retraining, spell lists, etc) if somebody made a mistake that either nerfs their character, or that doesnt really fit with their character concept, or if they just really aren't happy about it. Still, its very, very limited, also in how many times they can get away with something like this. As of yet, only two of my players have switched feats, and one switched a spell out.

Changing race is flat out impossible (unless we are like level one and are still in the first session), and changing class means you cross-class and you LIKE IT.

Demanding that he can bend the weave of the game is just detrimental and unfair to the rest of the players, and it destroys any sense of versimalitude. Slamming the phone down during such a conversation simply belies an incredible lack of maturity. I would seriously be considering finding a new player based on this story.

[Shotaro]

hmm i like the idea of class retraining...... will read up on it in the PHB2. means he's not broken right away but is still able to get his character the way he wants it (and besides like I said any more ranks in it is redundant and he's wasted 2 feats to get this score - if he gets into a fight he's mincemeat)

[KillianHawkeye]

Also keep in mind that Diplomacy does not work on PCs. Ever.

[Swooper]

Actually, electric radioactive acid is way more fun

Munchkin is such an awesome game

[Blanks]

Also keep in mind that Diplomacy does not work on PCs. Ever.

It does in the game im playing in right now (new DM ).


Anyways my contribution to this thread:
Neither does it work on NPCs unless the DM allows it. No matter how charming you are, the dragon saw you pilfer from its horde and boy, is it PISSED :D
And using diplomacy in combat - aint no way! If you yell, truce, and stop hitting, then maybe they will stop...