School me on Power Attack

[Brawls]

So, I see all these optimization threads where they mention all this uber-damage derived from Power Attack (PA). I must not be getting it, cause my numbers don't come close. So, if someone could please 'splain it to me (and use small words) please.

I have a Fighter 6/Warblade 1 with the following gak:

Stats: Str 20, Dex 15, Con 16
Feats: Improv. Unarm. Fight./2-Weap. Fight./Exotic Weap. Pro. - Katana/ Weap. Focus - Katana/Weap. Spec. - Katana/Combat Exp./Power Attack
Equipment: Katana & Wakizashi (shortsword)

So if I calculate things correctly, I have the following if using a 2-handed attack:

Damage
Weapon = 1d10
Str = +8
Weap Spec = +2
Total = 1d10 +10 (first) / 1d10 + 10 (second)

If I Power Attack for my full BAB (7), then I should be doing:

1d10 + 10 + 14 (first) / 1d10 + 10 + 14 (second)

So with a full attack with 2 hits, I should do 2d10 + 58 for an average of 68 damage, correct?


Using TWF, I would do the following:

Damage
Weapon = 1d10 (primary) / 1d6 (offhand)
Str = +5 (primary) / +3 (offhand)
Weap Spec = +2 (primary only)
Total = 1d10 +7 (first) / 1d6 + 3 (second)/ 1d10 + 7 (third)

So with a full attack with 3 hits, I should do 2d10 + 1d6 + 31 for an average of 44 damage, correct?

This is because PA does 1:1 damage for BAB minus when used 1-handed and one cannot use PA with a light weapon.

So am I missing something? When I use this PA calculator http://www.geocities.com/frisbeet/DandDandFightin.html I get like a minimum Damage of 100+ HP with an average of 140? Any guidance appreciated.

Brawls

[brian c]

The thing about Power Attack is that it gets better with two-handed weapons. With a two-hander, you get +2 damage for every -1 attack you take. Then there are feats like Leap Attack that increase that even more, and Supreme Power Attack (Frenzied Berzerker ability). If you use Shock Trooper to shift the penalty from AB to AC, then you can swing your hardest and still hit.

Edit: To recap, this is basically why Two-Weapon Fighting is suboptimal for melee.

[Idea Man]

Just a detail, but a +5 from strength translates to a +7 in damage on a two-handed weapon. Remember, the rules hate you, so round down.

Otherwise, without doing serious math, that looks about right. Two-weapon fighting is cool, two-handed fighting is effective. Which will break down the door first, the guy chopping down with all his might with one blade, or the guy going Turbo-Ginsu-9000 on it?

[AlterForm]

The thing about Power Attack is that it gets better with two-handed weapons. With a two-hander, you get +2 damage for every -1 attack you take. Then there are feats like Leap Attack that increase that even more, and Supreme Power Attack (Frenzied Berzerker ability). If you use Shock Trooper to shift the penalty from AB to AC, then you can swing your hardest and still hit.

Edit: To recap, this is basically why Two-Weapon Fighting is suboptimal for melee.

Unless thou hast a source of dice of extra damage, such as the attack of sneaking. (6th Commandment of Optimization, IIRC)

[Iku Rex]

Which of the two PA calculators are you using?

Anyway, PA usually isn't very good for two-weapon fighting. In your case you'll want to pick up Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CAdv) eventually, as well as some Armbands of Might (CAdv, MIC). Dual-wield katans with -2 Power Attack for +4 damage per hit (+2 PA +2 armbands) in addition to Weapon Specialization.

Don't worry too much about Power Attack though. It's overrated. Unless you have really low damage or a really high attack bonus you tend to at least as much damage on average just by hitting more often. In your case you can also get rid of "surplus" attack bonus with Combat Expertise.

[Dausuul]

Don't worry too much about Power Attack though. It's overrated. Unless you have really low damage or a really high attack bonus you tend to at least as much damage on average just by hitting more often. In your case you can also get rid of "surplus" attack bonus with Combat Expertise.

Power Attack is mainly useful at the mid-to-high levels, where your attack bonus is high enough that you reliably hit whatever you swing at, so you're better off dropping some of that bonus for extra damage. It's less useful on full attacks, since it hurts your chances to hit with the iterative attacks, but on a charge it's very much the thing to have. Particularly if you have a damage multiplier like Improved Crit or Spirited Charge.

[Iku Rex]

Sneaky edit there Dausuul. Saw it on preview, deleted my first reply.

Power Attack is mainly useful at the mid-to-high levels, where your attack bonus is high enough that you reliably hit whatever you swing at, so you're better off dropping some of that bonus for extra damage.

Uh, yes, that's what I just said. High attack bonus - Power Attack good. Or, you can use the surplus AB for Combat Expertise. (Low AC critters often have powerful offensive abilities you'll want to avoid.) But missing only on a natural 1 isn't as common as you might think, especially against opponents that matter.

[Temp]

Since the question's already been answered (damage comes from Maneuvers, Mounted Combat and Zweihanders), a suggestion:

Wouldn't CW Samurai 2/Fighter 4/Warblade 1 be a bit more effective?

You'd have a better skill list at first level (Concentration and Intimidate are good for an aspiring Warblade), an extra feat and you wouldn't need to provide 15 Dex for TWF.

Weapon Supremacy would be impossible, but 9th level maneuvers are better anyway (and cheaper).

-------------------------
...I just suggested somebody use a Samurai.

[Dausuul]

Sneaky edit there Dausuul. Saw it on preview, deleted my first reply.

Yeah, I realized my original statement that PA was equally good for TWFers as for THFers was wrong; because the optimum use of PA is on a single attack rather than a full attack, and single attacks are where TWFers come up short.

Uh, yes, that's what I just said. High attack bonus - Power Attack good. Or, you can use the surplus AB for Combat Expertise. (Low AC critters often have powerful offensive abilities you'll want to avoid.) But missing only on a natural 1 isn't as common as you might think, especially against opponents that matter.

Hence the "mid-to-high levels." I wasn't contradicting your statement that PA is best when you have a strong attack bonus, just pointing out that your attack bonus becomes strong enough to justify PA on a fairly regular basis once you get into the upper level range.

[Iku Rex]

Yeah, I realized my original statement that PA was equally good for TWFers as for THFers was wrong; because the optimum use of PA is on a single attack rather than a full attack, and single attacks are where TWFers come up short.

That's not all. Without Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting you want a light weapon in your off-hand to lower the attack penalties, and you can't Power Attack with a light weapon.

Hence the "mid-to-high levels." I wasn't contradicting your statement that PA is best when you have a strong attack bonus, just pointing out that your attack bonus becomes strong enough to justify PA once you get into the upper level range.

Ah. That's generally true.

(On the other hand your damage per hit increases as well, which makes attack bonus all the more important as long as you're not wasting it.)

[Dausuul]

That's not all. Without Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting you want a light weapon in your off-hand to lower the attack penalties, and you can't Power Attack with a light weapon.

Ah, I was assuming Oversized TWF was sort of a given... I mean, if you're going to use PA with TWF, you'd be nuts not to get Oversized TWF.

[BizzaroStormy]

You'll get regular 1:1 penatly:damage ratio in both hands. Thing is, your off-hand weapon will only get half your STR bonus(so +2) to damage in addition to PA and any other bonuses you get.

[Brawls]

Thnaks for the responses.

So, these huge 100+ damage numbers I'm seeing are based on some other feat or attack type that allows for multiplying the PA bonus?

Brawls

[MeklorIlavator]

Thnaks for the responses.

So, these huge 100+ damage numbers I'm seeing are based on some other feat or attack type that allows for multiplying the PA bonus?

Brawls

Yep. Shock Trooper+Leap Attack or Heedless Charge(maybe both, I don't know if you can really combine both).Shock Trooper drops your AC, and both Heedless charge and Leap Attack Multiply damage.

[Temp]

So, these huge 100+ damage numbers I'm seeing are based on some other feat or attack type that allows for multiplying the PA bonus?

At low levels, Spirited Charge with a lance is the easiest way to hit the triple digits.
Leap Attack helps too.

[BizzaroStormy]

theres also the fact that they could be based on multiple attacks and/or crits

[Kizara]

Yep. Shock Trooper+Leap Attack or Heedless Charge(maybe both, I don't know if you can really combine both).Shock Trooper drops your AC, and both Heedless charge and Leap Attack Multiply damage.

Incorrect.

Leap attack gives you 3:1 PA ratio (compared to normal THF).

Heedless charge (a function of shock trooper, not a seperate feat) allows you to shift your penalty to attack to your AC.

They stack very effectively.

So: If you took a -5 reduction to attack on a leaping charge, you would gain +15 damage and -7 to AC and +2 to attack (charging bonus).

[Townopolis]

When people were mentioning heedless charge as an extra feat, they meant Headlong Rush, which is a feat from the WoTC website that requires half-orc and says that whenever you charge you do double damage.

[Edit] Here's a link.

If they stack in the utmost...

Level 20 half-orc barbarian with 24 strength (before rage) and a greataxe power attacking for full.

(1d12+16+60)*2 damage. (Greataxe+strength while raging+PA)*2

maximum non-crit damage is 176

Before magical items.

[Iku Rex]

Leap attack gives you 3:1 PA ratio (compared to normal THF).

Strictly as written, each -1 penalty on attacks gets you +6 damage - that is, 3x the normal +2 damage per -1 penalty, like you said. According to CustServ the intent is 2:1, or +4 damage per -1 penalty.

(If anyone's inclined to argue over that, please read this thread first. Pay special attention to post 22 [note example from WotC] and 26 [note stated intent from WotC].)

[leperkhaun]

IN addition to shock trooper, leap attack, and headlong rush you can get the

Valourus weapon enchant, a valourus weapon deals double damage on a charge.

So with headlong rush you get 3x damage on a charge.

Then people take..... i think its karmaic strike and something gambit (i think thats teh combination), which basically lets them attack someone when they get hit (say the person they charge attacks them back) and they use the modifiers for thier charge for each attack.

So while the lower AC makes them easy to hit, they ussually have the HP to survive a full round attack against them and their enemy wont survive the retaliation damage.