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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    *shrug*
    Cthulhu was stopped by a boat.
    Well not really, but he went back to bed because the damn kids had gotten off his lawn.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I really wouldn't expect any changes to the story or gameplay from this. Not major ones, at least.
    Neither am I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    We already know this is happening - all DLC and promotional content is going to be included in Legendary Edition.
    I'm skeptical (yet hopeful) after they made similar noises before Trilogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    The others on your list I'd be more skeptical about, especially ones that would involving adding things that never existed before, like adding the Kaiden male romance to ME1/2.
    All the content is in the game actually, you just have to mod the game files and use the dev console to unlock it. It's not like they would need to create new dialogue options etc. Even the voicelines for it were recorded and locked away on the disk, presumably once the brass found out what the devs were about to do. Bioware has come a long way since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    I was never motivated enough to get ME:Andromeda. If anyone feels like sharing, what were its main downsides?
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    I was never motivated enough to get ME:Andromeda. If anyone feels like sharing, what were its main downsides?
    On the story side, Ryder was not a very interesting main character. You weren't a special agent investigating threats to the galaxy, you just happened to be the kid of the expedition leader and you ran around solving problems in the colonization fleet. The side quests were similarly uninteresting, with the problems made worse by the open world nature of the game. I didn't get far enough in to really get to know the main villains, but what I saw was pretty generic "we are evil aliens" stuff. The whole thing wasn't bad particularly, but it was a massive disappointment after the vibrant world they created in the Milky Way.

    Gameplay-wise they upgraded the systems from Mass Effect 3...and then stuck them in an open world game with randomly generated enemies so that the tight corridor shooting of the previous games was tossed out the airlock. The gameplay then felt like an Ubisoft game, and if I wanted that experience I'd go play Far Cry. Huge open spaces with nothing inhabiting it, tons of filler side quests that make it impossible to find a "good" side quest...

    The game was a white bread sandwich consisting of just the bread and topped with bland.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    All the content is in the game actually, you just have to mod the game files and use the dev console to unlock it. It's not like they would need to create new dialogue options etc. Even the voicelines for it were recorded and locked away on the disk, presumably once the brass found out what the devs were about to do. Bioware has come a long way since then.
    If the lines are already there, I suppose it's not impossible. And it would be very nice if they were brought back.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Sovereign was only defeated because it stopped fighting back and lowered its shields, which it only did because Shepard killed its Saren-avatar. In future confrontations with Reapers, there's no guarantee that those circumstances would be repeated.
    Its a pity the Council races can't reverse engineer a weapon that is specifically stated to bypass all shields....

    There was a series disconnect between what the game told us and what the game showed us at times.

    For example they tell us that the Reapers main defences are their shields, which we saw in ME1. Once those are gone the reaper died fairly quickly. And then in ME2 they gave us upgraded weaponry, the Thanix canon, which is reverse engineered from Sovereign's weapons. Not only are they much more powerful in terms of firepower but they also ignore shields.

    They also tell us that 90% of all Reaper ships are the destroyers, and they also tell us that they can be taken out by cruisers or even fighters. The remaining 10% are the big ships which could hold off four conventionally armed dreadnaughts - but none of the dreadnaughts had conventional weapons anymore. They were all armed with Thanix canons.

    So you could make a compelling argument that the combined fleet would be able to inflict serious damage to the Reapers, to the point of critically weakening them.

    As for the remaster, they have said it isn't changing gameplay or story, just the visuals, and not the ME3 MP either, more the pity. The MP was by far the best thing that came out of ME3.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    On the story side, Ryder was not a very interesting main character. You weren't a special agent investigating threats to the galaxy, you just happened to be the kid of the expedition leader and you ran around solving problems in the colonization fleet. The side quests were similarly uninteresting, with the problems made worse by the open world nature of the game. I didn't get far enough in to really get to know the main villains, but what I saw was pretty generic "we are evil aliens" stuff. The whole thing wasn't bad particularly, but it was a massive disappointment after the vibrant world they created in the Milky Way.

    Gameplay-wise they upgraded the systems from Mass Effect 3...and then stuck them in an open world game with randomly generated enemies so that the tight corridor shooting of the previous games was tossed out the airlock. The gameplay then felt like an Ubisoft game, and if I wanted that experience I'd go play Far Cry. Huge open spaces with nothing inhabiting it, tons of filler side quests that make it impossible to find a "good" side quest...

    The game was a white bread sandwich consisting of just the bread and topped with bland.
    How underwhelming. I hope the new edition of the Shepard trilogy means that they are course correcting and going back to what made Mass Effect such a special brand.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The game was a white bread sandwich consisting of just the bread and topped with bland.
    Hey, if you toast the slice of bread in the middle that actually works!

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    On the story side, Ryder was not a very interesting main character. You weren't a special agent investigating threats to the galaxy, you just happened to be the kid of the expedition leader and you ran around solving problems in the colonization fleet. The side quests were similarly uninteresting, with the problems made worse by the open world nature of the game. I didn't get far enough in to really get to know the main villains, but what I saw was pretty generic "we are evil aliens" stuff. The whole thing wasn't bad particularly, but it was a massive disappointment after the vibrant world they created in the Milky Way.

    Gameplay-wise they upgraded the systems from Mass Effect 3...and then stuck them in an open world game with randomly generated enemies so that the tight corridor shooting of the previous games was tossed out the airlock. The gameplay then felt like an Ubisoft game, and if I wanted that experience I'd go play Far Cry. Huge open spaces with nothing inhabiting it, tons of filler side quests that make it impossible to find a "good" side quest...

    The game was a white bread sandwich consisting of just the bread and topped with bland.
    This, but I would go further and even challenge that they "upgraded the systems." Sure, they added 3-dimensional combat with jetpacks, and that was a solid new feature - but with that and the sprawling open-world design, we also lost the tightly-designed and memorable firefights of ME2 and ME3; fights like Grissom Academy Atrium, storming Dantius Towers, defending the Horizon Colony, or nuking the core of the Derelict Reaper that the prior games had. They had to design combat arenas you could enter from multiple angles or jump from one end of to the other, which left them feeling rather bland as a result. There were a few memorable standouts like the Asari Ark vacuum battle, but those were few and far between.

    Even putting the environments/levels aside, the core combat also took several steps back. Ryder can only have three abilities slotted at a time (and don't get me started on "Profiles"), plus the combo system was utterly gutted, and the individual moves themselves were bland and uninspired after ME3's rich ability palette. Gone was the feeling of your Adept being a biotic god who could rip husks and brutes apart with his mind while never firing a gun, gone were the tricky engineers who could use combinations of turrets and CC to dominate the battlefield from around a corner, gone was the Sentinel that was a walking magitank that barely needs to take cover - and that's just comparing Ryder to singleplayer Shepard, never mind comparing them to all the bombastic kits they added in ME3 multiplayer like the N7 and Cerberus classes.

    But it's not just the combat where they dropped the ball, there was little to no roleplay in Andromeda either. Your choices barely had any impact on the narrative - maybe they were setting up some big flags to pay off later based on some of them, but as it stands now we'll never know. And the dialogue trees were a joke. I can understand somewhat why they wanted to move away from Paragon and Renegade, but we were left with essentially nothing; you can choose for Ryder to be logical, emotional, professional or casual, but not only does that choice have very little impact on how other characters treat you, it's also very difficult for you to tell how your Ryder will ultimately be portrayed. It was a lesson that sometimes the popular thing - a straightforward alignment or karma system - is popular for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Removing Paragon/Renegade was absolutely the right choice. Hanging every major choice off those two meters, which were a good/evil system despite insistence to the contrary, did the original trilogy no favors whatsoever.

    Whether Andromeda ended up with good dialogue and story is another question, but it certainly wasn't hurt by the lack of a blue/red bar. Particularly since most players went for the blue bar in the original anyway, since the red one just had you be a jackass for no reason. And sometimes racist.
    Last edited by Morty; 2020-11-23 at 06:13 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    And are Morality-o-Meters all that popular? Lots of RPGs don't have them, and I generally don't get the sense that players actually like them all that much. Like, 95% of the time I see a morality system mentioned, it's people complaining about it. Action X isn't evil, or it's silly that killing one orphan is exactly offset by saving 4 cats from trees, or I feel like I'm getting shafted for playing morality A, because if I choose morality B I get a bigger shiny, or I'll get penalized for playing my character because if I choose too many Good/Evil/whatever options, I won't be Pure Good/Evil, or have enough points to unlock something. Even for Paragon/Renegade, which was relatively non-hated as these things go, has lots of complaints along these lines. And most of the things I saw people as liking were things like Renegade interrupts, less because choosing Renegade is itself interesting or engaging, and more because punching fools is funny.

    No, I agree with Morty on this one. Scrapping the meters was, from a narrative point of view, about the only really good idea Andromeda had. That, and the very core idea of exploring another galaxy with no feasible means of getting home. It's failure to do anything with that is a real shame, because it has a tremendous amount of potential.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    I liked the paragon/renegade meters. They're the only morality system in a game that ever made sense. When paragon shep makes a promise, people believe him because he has a history of following through on his promises. When renegade shep makes a threat, people believe her because she has a history of following through on her threats. It's internally consistent.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    The advantage of the morality meters is that they add replay value while requiring very little additional programming. Mechanically you can run Shepard exactly the same in any of the Mass Effects, but a 100% Paragon game will feel very different from a 100% Renegade game and the same thing is true for the light side/dark side meter systems from which the system was derived. The inclusion of a small but significant number of events dependent upon certain meter choices highlights this with a minimal programming cost. The removal of the meters turns the dialogue choices into entirely presentation based options, which drastically reduces the value of dialogue as a whole on the gameplay because what you say no longer has an impact beyond whether or not certain NPCs think you're a jerk.

    Morality meters are by no means perfect as a system and they do have significant flaws, but they aren't useless.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    I'm not saying removing Paragon/Renegade was an inherently bad idea. But by all that is holy, replace them with something meaningful. Andromeda failed to do this by a country mile.

    My favorite system by far was Dragon Age 2's Diplomatic/Helpful, Charming/Snarky, Aggressive/Direct. It wasn't perfect either, but I think continuing to iterate on and polish that was the way for Bioware to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post

    My favorite system by far was Dragon Age 2's Diplomatic/Helpful, Charming/Snarky, Aggressive/Direct. It wasn't perfect either, but I think continuing to iterate on and polish that was the way for Bioware to go.
    This. But I really liked Dragon Age 2, which (I think) places me in the minority.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    The important part of the DA2 system, which I also liked, is that it determined Hawke's personality while being largely disconnected from their moral, ideological and personal choices. Except inasmuch as some options were more likely to inspire friendship or rivalry in companions. The major problem with Paragon/Renegade, apart from being a good/evil meter while continually insisting otherwise, was that so many major decisions were split this way. Granted, this is a part of Bioware writers' general collective fixation on major, binary choices.

    My favorite personality tracker is probably Pillars of Eternity's disposition system. It's the best iteration of the concept I've seen, particularly with how we can have multiple dispositions - so I can play a stoic and rational character, but I could also play a stoic and benevolent one, or something else. Disco Elysium's political affiliations and "copotypes" are also very good.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    My biggest problem with Paragon/Renegade wasn't that it was good/evil--I think it had just about enough nuance in most cases to not be that simple--but that some of the choices provided simply didn't make sense in *either* mindset. The one where you get the choice of recruiting Morinth or Samara to your cause, where supposedly the Paragon choice is Samara and the Renegade one Morinth--who, lest we forget, is someone with an almost uncontrollable compulsion to have Asari sex with people, killing them in the process. And this is someone Shepard thinks would be OK to have on the team? Choosing her over her mother isn't Renegade in the slightest, it's flat-out insane.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    The big downside of binary morality systems is that they don't tend to produce individualised situational decisions because you choose which way you're going at the start of the game and stick with it. Usually because there are significant bonuses for doing so.

    I likewise like the Pillars system because you can make much more situational decisions on how you're going to respond to specific people and situations and still feel like the world is responding to that.

    It also feels more like you're leaning on specific things you've done before. Like sometimes you can get people to believe you just because you have a reputation for honesty.

    Also because they use all the dispositions a lot in almost every dialogue you aren't locked in to just one personality trait even if you're playing one of the classes which mechanically benefits from dispositions (Paladins and Clerics).

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    My biggest problem with Paragon/Renegade wasn't that it was good/evil--I think it had just about enough nuance in most cases to not be that simple--but that some of the choices provided simply didn't make sense in *either* mindset. The one where you get the choice of recruiting Morinth or Samara to your cause, where supposedly the Paragon choice is Samara and the Renegade one Morinth--who, lest we forget, is someone with an almost uncontrollable compulsion to have Asari sex with people, killing them in the process. And this is someone Shepard thinks would be OK to have on the team? Choosing her over her mother isn't Renegade in the slightest, it's flat-out insane.
    Well, keep in mind that a renegade Shep has very likely been at odds with Samara all game and had her swear to hunt him down once the collector threat is dealt with. Eliminating her might be in their own self interest.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    The big downside of binary morality systems is that they don't tend to produce individualised situational decisions because you choose which way you're going at the start of the game and stick with it. Usually because there are significant bonuses for doing so.
    This is true, but one of the reasons we have binary systems is simply that two paths are about as much as can be reliably programmed for a full sized game. Every 'choice' induces more resolution options to follow leading to bloated conversation trees and alternative outcomes, all of which have costs associated with them - Mass Effect even has whole gated cutscenes. All of that takes effort to make.

    Going from a 2-option system to a 3-option system doesn't mean 50% more work in terms of integrating the morality system, unless the options are completely isolated. Instead, it's probably more like 3x the work involved. When you're primarily text based in terms of these interactions (my limited experience with Pillars suggests this is largely the case, it absolutely is in Disco Elysium) you can do that. When you have dialogue cutscenes that are not only fully voiced but include facial motion and sometimes full body movement, you probably can't. SWTOR, notably, broke the bank trying to fully voice their game, eventually dropping that rule in later expansions to cut costs.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Well, keep in mind that a renegade Shep has very likely been at odds with Samara all game and had her swear to hunt him down once the collector threat is dealt with. Eliminating her might be in their own self interest.
    "once the Collector threat is dealt with" is the critical part there--we know she's on side until that moment, so why jump the gun? Especially since the person you choose to replace her with is far more dangerous and unpredictable--sure, she *says* she won't vamp you or any of your crew, but can she be trusted to keep that word when the urges come upon her?

    Thinking about morality systems generally, I recall Planescape: Torment would actually adjust your character's alignment according to your actions during the game. I don't think aiming for any particular alignment offered any benefits, though, it was just a cool sort of "Well, this is how I've been acting generally" metric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    The important part of the DA2 system, which I also liked, is that it determined Hawke's personality while being largely disconnected from their moral, ideological and personal choices. Except inasmuch as some options were more likely to inspire friendship or rivalry in companions. The major problem with Paragon/Renegade, apart from being a good/evil meter while continually insisting otherwise, was that so many major decisions were split this way. Granted, this is a part of Bioware writers' general collective fixation on major, binary choices.
    The best thing DA2 did was to have the disposition affect how Hawke acted outside of your choices. If you were snarky the whole game Hawke would start spontaneously telling jokes even in situations where the player might not find it appropriate. An aggressive Hawke might haul off and hit someone without the player telling them to do so. You determine your character's personality organically and the game reacts.

    Paragon/Renegade never covered that. Being a Renegade meant being a jackass a lot of the time, but your interactions with companions on board ship rarely affected that meter. My Renegade Shep wound up bi-polar as a result - aggressive and threatening off the ship, a perfect goody two-shoes on board. There was no permanent "this is who your character is" meter filling up off screen. It also punished nuanced decisions - I've always felt that siding with Mordin on the genophage in ME2 is the correct choice based on what Mordin and Shepard knew at the time. However, one is considered Paragon (good) and the other Renegade (evil).

    Inquisition did a good job with this. I don't recall it having a "friend to rival" meter like DA2 and it didn't have a Paragon/Renegade system either. Instead companions would react very specifically to the views you espoused. Being religious around Blackwall was a bad idea, and sucking up to elves around Sera was too. For all my complaints about Inquisition it had one of the most developed character systems I've seen. Andromeda completely failed in this regard, at least as far as I could tell.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    In DA2, friendship or rivalry were not inherently good or bad, as some equivalent meters make things. I think some people would agree that going the rival route with some of the companions (Fenris? ) turns out better than going the friendship route, and both ways can be interesting in their own way (rival Aveline is a lot of fun, although I'm a sucker for the Hawke-Aveline bromance).
    Last edited by Clertar; 2020-11-25 at 11:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Thinking about morality systems generally, I recall Planescape: Torment would actually adjust your character's alignment according to your actions during the game. I don't think aiming for any particular alignment offered any benefits, though, it was just a cool sort of "Well, this is how I've been acting generally" metric.
    It worked about as well as any attempt to track morality by numbers, which is to say not very. I think it also treated lying as a chaotic act. And generally fell into "LG is more good than CG" trap. Then again, using the D&D alignment system was never going to end well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Inquisition did a good job with this. I don't recall it having a "friend to rival" meter like DA2 and it didn't have a Paragon/Renegade system either. Instead companions would react very specifically to the views you espoused. Being religious around Blackwall was a bad idea, and sucking up to elves around Sera was too. For all my complaints about Inquisition it had one of the most developed character systems I've seen. Andromeda completely failed in this regard, at least as far as I could tell.
    I'm ambivalent about approval meters and I don't think they're a good idea. But they're better than a good/evil meter at the end of the day. Whether tracked or not, your relationship with characters around you is a lot more meaningful than good/evil or blue/red.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    To be fair to meters, I think they can work very well for tracking something like faction reputation. For one thing it's usually pretty transparent and logical, I took over this fort for this group, so they as a whole like and trust me more. It's also an abstract representation of something interior to the game world, rather than the game itself judging your actions.

    I'm less fond of them for character-based stuff, outside of very system-driven sorts of games. But if your game has a written narrative, my view is that should be left to the writers.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    To be fair to meters, I think they can work very well for tracking something like faction reputation. For one thing it's usually pretty transparent and logical, I took over this fort for this group, so they as a whole like and trust me more. It's also an abstract representation of something interior to the game world, rather than the game itself judging your actions.

    I'm less fond of them for character-based stuff, outside of very system-driven sorts of games. But if your game has a written narrative, my view is that should be left to the writers.
    Thing is, there's always a meter, because that's how moral choice design tends to work. The only question is whether they show it to the player or not. And I would much rather see it than not.

    When they hide it, you get games like Dishonored - where you're not totally sure how you're doing morality-wise, but you're sure you don't want to lose hours of progress by killing one person too many, so you end up save-scumming your way to the end to undo screwups.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Thing is, there's always a meter, because that's how moral choice design tends to work. The only question is whether they show it to the player or not. And I would much rather see it than not.

    When they hide it, you get games like Dishonored - where you're not totally sure how you're doing morality-wise, but you're sure you don't want to lose hours of progress by killing one person too many, so you end up save-scumming your way to the end to undo screwups.
    Or you can always just not have a morality system, like Dragon Age - or most games in general. Seems work quite well.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Thing is, there's always a meter, because that's how moral choice design tends to work. The only question is whether they show it to the player or not. And I would much rather see it than not.

    When they hide it, you get games like Dishonored - where you're not totally sure how you're doing morality-wise, but you're sure you don't want to lose hours of progress by killing one person too many, so you end up save-scumming your way to the end to undo screwups.
    I mean your morality in Dishonored is fairly binary; you're either killing people or not. Once you've killed one person, why stop there?

    It's the same with all stealth games that give you the option of killing people. Are you going for the pacifist route (usually for an achievement or some other reward) or are you playing on easy mode?

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I mean your morality in Dishonored is fairly binary; you're either killing people or not. Once you've killed one person, why stop there?

    It's the same with all stealth games that give you the option of killing people. Are you going for the pacifist route (usually for an achievement or some other reward) or are you playing on easy mode?
    It's a bit more than that. Do you slaughter your way through, or do you only kill when absolutely necessary? Because I killed plenty of people throughout the game, but still got the Lawful ending because I didn't go nuts with it. I tried to stealth my way through most obstacles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Or you can always just not have a morality system, like Dragon Age - or most games in general. Seems work quite well.
    I meant "once you choose to have moral choice gameplay." Not blanket "in most games." Quite obviously there wouldn't a morality meter in, say, Doom.

    Dragon Age is a special case because nearly all the choices are bad ones (morally speaking), fitting the crapsack setting they were going for. Mages vs Templars, Bhelen vs Harrowmont, Elves vs Werewolves... don't get me wrong, I think they pulled it off quite well in DAO, but I wouldn't expect every RPG I played to have those kind of quandaries. Sometimes you do want the simpler Jean-Luc Picard heroism vs. Dirty Harry grittiness dichotomy. And as DA2/DAI showed, keeping it going presents... challenges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I mean your morality in Dishonored is fairly binary; you're either killing people or not. Once you've killed one person, why stop there?

    It's the same with all stealth games that give you the option of killing people. Are you going for the pacifist route (usually for an achievement or some other reward) or are you playing on easy mode?
    Dishonored actually did a great job of making the kill route NOT be a straight easy mode. Or rather, it's easy in the short term, but High Chaos makes enemies in latter missions more paranoid, and you have far greater density of hazards (rat swarms, weepers, security systems and the like) to deal with as a result.

    Maybe where they messed up was in having two bad endings, both HC related.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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