Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

[LibraryOgre]

Honestly I thought the full destruction of the Relay network was rolled back for higher war scores in the extended cut, but even if they're all destroyed it doesn't necessarily mean they cant be rebuilt. Its implied the tech level is there or close enough so reverse engineering them should be possible. The biggest reason they didn't bother attempting to make new relays is there was already an existing network in place going to most of the good planets in the galaxy anyway so why bother building more.

The asari were canonically talking about making them.

[KillianHawkeye]

A boring reset of the galaxy, going with the Destroy option as canonical, would indeed by definition be boring.

But that is just taking the metaphor too literally. It wouldn't be really a reset, and one would hope that the developers would set out to not make it boring. Star Trek Discovery did something similar in season 3, and so far people seem to like it quite a bit.

Yeah but S3 of Discovery also featured a massive time skip to allow the setting to evolve and settle into the paradigm of having limited warp drives. I'm sort of assuming that a sequel to the Mass Effect destroy ending probably won't be hundreds of years afterward. Maybe that would be the best way to do it, though.

[warty goblin]

Yeah but S3 of Discovery also featured a massive time skip to allow the setting to evolve and settle into the paradigm of having limited warp drives. I'm sort of assuming that a sequel to the Mass Effect destroy ending probably won't be hundreds of years afterward. Maybe that would be the best way to do it, though.

I think a few centuries of separation is exactly how to do it. It makes a lot of the incidental choices from the main trilogy irrelevant, or things that could be easily stuck into a codex entry for the continuity hounds. It also gives the setting some time to return to a new normal, set up some new history to explore and react to, and let the player do something besides run around with a mop, cleaning up the mess of the last three games. Shephard's story is done, any new Milky Way game needs some breathing room to let it actually be done, narratively speaking.

[Mechalich]

I think a few centuries of separation is exactly how to do it. It makes a lot of the incidental choices from the main trilogy irrelevant, or things that could be easily stuck into a codex entry for the continuity hounds. It also gives the setting some time to return to a new normal, set up some new history to explore and react to, and let the player do something besides run around with a mop, cleaning up the mess of the last three games. Shephard's story is done, any new Milky Way game needs some breathing room to let it actually be done, narratively speaking.

I agree. Also, it's worth noting that even by jumping ahead a few centuries, the lifespan of certain species in Mass Effect allows some characters to reappear anyway.

[Sholos]

My biggest disappointment with the ME story was the introduction of the dark energy problem (and the hints that the Reapers were tied up with it) followed by the dropping of that for the bad "AI and organics can't coexist" which has never really been interesting to me.

[Morty]

My biggest disappointment with the ME story was the introduction of the dark energy problem (and the hints that the Reapers were tied up with it) followed by the dropping of that for the bad "AI and organics can't coexist" which has never really been interesting to me.

I get that people are disappointed by the ending, but the dark energy "problem" was mentioned about twice and I can't remember Reapers having any implication of being involved.

[huttj509]

My biggest disappointment with the ME story was the introduction of the dark energy problem (and the hints that the Reapers were tied up with it) followed by the dropping of that for the bad "AI and organics can't coexist" which has never really been interesting to me.

From an interview with Drew Karpyshyn, Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 lead writer:

But Karpyshyn was keen to point out that his idea would likely have displeased some fans too.

"I find it funny that fans end up hearing a couple things they like about it and in their minds they add in all the details they specifically want," he explained. "It's like vapourware - vapourware is always perfect, anytime someone talks about the new greatest game. It's perfect until it comes out. I'm a little weary about going into too much detail because, whatever we came up with, it probably wouldn't be what people want it to be."

[Dienekes]

I get that people are disappointed by the ending, but the dark energy "problem" was mentioned about twice and I can't remember Reapers having any implication of being involved.

That’s largely an insurmountable issue. We were given an issue: Reapers. But we were never really given any details about what the issue means, what their long term goals were, or anything.

The first game was all set up. The closest we get is Sovereign saying something about our puny minds unable to comprehend him.

The second game was a collection of tangentially related side stories to flesh out the characters and universe.

That put the entire impetus of what’s actually going on the third game. Which instead focused on how to defeat the issue instead of explaining it. Only to reveal what it all means in the last 5 minutes with no real foreshadowing for it. Unless you bought the optional DLC that came out months after the game was released.

I don’t think dark energy is any worse or better than bad AI. It all depends on how the issue is explored and focused on. If the motives of the Reapers were supposed to be a big turning point and essentially the climax of the story, then the game should have followed the rough outline of a mystery plot where Shepard is searching for clues about it.

But they don’t do that. It’s a pretty standard unite the people’s against a common threat story. Where the climax should therefore be testing these new alliances against the Reapers in battle. Which admittedly it does, right up until the last five minutes.

It’s just bad set and plot resolution.

[Anteros]

The thing is, you don't have to explain the Reapers. Not really. They're a race of ancient genocidal machines, and that was perfectly sufficient for Mass Effect 1 and 2 to have great games. They're supposed to be alien to us. I don't need their motivations, and I don't need to empathize with them.

[Dienekes]

The thing is, you don't have to explain the Reapers. Not really. They're a race of ancient genocidal machines, and that was perfectly sufficient for Mass Effect 1 and 2 to have great games. They're supposed to be alien to us. I don't need their motivations, and I don't need to empathize with them.

That could have in theory worked too. The ending could be changed to avoid all questions of the Reapers origins.

I think many players would have been disappointed with that as well, since for three games we got details of weird mysterious nonsensical stuff. Only to not deal with any of it.

It’s kind of a bind. The Reapers motivations were a big enough mystery to get many players attention and desire to know more (even if not yours Anteros). But were never essential enough to the flow of the story or foreshadowed well enough to work as a climax.

[Morty]

That’s largely an insurmountable issue. We were given an issue: Reapers. But we were never really given any details about what the issue means, what their long term goals were, or anything.

The first game was all set up. The closest we get is Sovereign saying something about our puny minds unable to comprehend him.

The second game was a collection of tangentially related side stories to flesh out the characters and universe.

That put the entire impetus of what’s actually going on the third game. Which instead focused on how to defeat the issue instead of explaining it. Only to reveal what it all means in the last 5 minutes with no real foreshadowing for it. Unless you bought the optional DLC that came out months after the game was released.

I don’t think dark energy is any worse or better than bad AI. It all depends on how the issue is explored and focused on. If the motives of the Reapers were supposed to be a big turning point and essentially the climax of the story, then the game should have followed the rough outline of a mystery plot where Shepard is searching for clues about it.

But they don’t do that. It’s a pretty standard unite the people’s against a common threat story. Where the climax should therefore be testing these new alliances against the Reapers in battle. Which admittedly it does, right up until the last five minutes.

It’s just bad set and plot resolution.

Yes, by the time ME3 began there were few if any good ways out of this bind. Not only don't we learn anything of value about the Reapers in ME2, but its ending signifies that they're coming and war is on the galaxy's doorstep. And then ME3 continues not to answer anything about them until the last minute. If the dark energy explanation had been put there instead of the "synthetics will kill you so synthetics don't kill you" one, it would've fallen just as flat.

People just latched onto it as the perfect alternate ending that would've solved everything if only it had been kept. It's like that Drew Karpyshyn quote up there says: we know virtually nothing about it (because there's not much to be known), so people are free to imagine it exactly the way they want.

[warty goblin]

I think the Reapers had two huge problems to overcome from a story point of view.

1) They need a satisfying explanation. Somebody created a vast army of omnicidal robots. They must have had a reason to go to all that effort. The Reapers are machines, built to accomplish a task. It's very hard to pose a sensible problem where "routinely kill everything" is a logical answer. And if either the problem they're meant to solve or the way they solve it don't make sense, they get way less interesting to fight.


2) You need a satisfying way to beat them. You can't really beat them through conventional force, which leaves something clever, or space magic. Something clever requires a good answer to problem 1, which I don't think anybody has. So space magic it is.

Up until ME, Bioware had done fantasy stories. And Star Wars, which is fantasy except with space ships instead of dragons. In fantasy you can solve the above in a couple of sentences. Take the Reapers, drop them into a standard fantasy world, and turn them into undead wizards who arise every 5000 years to eat all life. You can say they do it because they need the life force or souls or whatever, and it's fine. The MC is chosen by destiny and can beat them by finding and destroying their Heart Crystals or something, and nobody would bat an eye.

But the Reapers aren't evil wizards, they need a sensible, non-mystic reason for having been built, and liking the way souls taste doesn't cut it. Ideally you can beat them using means that fit in the tone of the universe, and ME 1 at least didn't feel like a place rife with arbitrary space magic. Hell, they even bothered to come up with an explanation for the space wizards they stuck in for some reason.

Basically ME is a vaguely hard sci-fi universe, with a main plot and protagonist right out of a 1990's fantasy series with a name like The Echo of Ages Cycle. These are not things that go together easily. You can have omnicidal nightmare species in hard sci-fi, but it requires a scope way bigger than can be solved by a dude crouching behind chest high walls. And if all your problems can be solved by said dude tactically dry-humping walls, you need some space magic to let him solve problems of a universal and bulletproof nature.

[Sholos]

I think the reason I like the dark energy problem more is that A) It hasn't been done to death in other sci-fi stories like AI has and B) It wasn't completely disproved by the story already. Even by the first game it was already established that the Geth weren't inherently violent and were being used by Saren. It was a lot easier for me to accept that there was something about dark energy that the galaxy didn't understand than the idea that AI always comes into conflict. Not to mention I didn't really understand why the Reapers cared about the supposedly inevitable conflict.

[LibraryOgre]

I generally dislike the "AI always come into conflict" idea, but I can dismiss that as "The Reapers had a flawed conception of reality and were acting based on their biases." It's not that AI will always compete with organics... it's that the Reapers were programmed to believe they would, and acted out their programming to purge the galaxy every 50k years, not having the inclination to grow beyond it.

I almost wish they'd boiled the thing down to a logic puzzle, or maybe just showing them Rule 34 on the internet of geth sex-fetishists.

[Ailurus]

I almost wish they'd boiled the thing down to a logic puzzle, or maybe just showing them Rule 34 on the internet of geth sex-fetishists.

Along those lines, I think it would have been much better if the options had been "Destroy", "Control" and "Prove Wrong" instead of destroy, control and synthesis, and that would also make the choices you made along the way a lot more relevant.

By the time you get to the end of 3, Shepard has had plenty of times to demonstrate that the Reaper's premise is fundamentally flawed. Making peace between the Quarians and the Geth is obviously the big one. EDI's evolution, the Overlord situation in ME2 DLC, even the rogue AI on the Citadel in ME1 (and probably more, those are the ones I remember) are various cases where Shepard had the chance to either perpetuate or resolve AI/organic conflicts. And then there's organic genocidal threats just as bad as the Reapers' fear of AI, like the Rachni, where Shepard has a chance to make peace as well. If you had made enough choices over the 3 games to unify the rifts and bring everyone together, I wish Shepard had a moment like Durkon's You want my memories? Take 'em all! demonstrating to the Reapers that - at least for this cycle - what they're coming to stop is maybe not inevitable.

[LibraryOgre]

Along those lines, I think it would have been much better if the options had been "Destroy", "Control" and "Prove Wrong" instead of destroy, control and synthesis, and that would also make the choices you made along the way a lot more relevant.

I like the cut of your jib. It would also take some tweaking to ME2 (where they really went heavy on the "Robots run amok" subquests), but it works well.

[Forum Explorer]

Along those lines, I think it would have been much better if the options had been "Destroy", "Control" and "Prove Wrong" instead of destroy, control and synthesis, and that would also make the choices you made along the way a lot more relevant.

By the time you get to the end of 3, Shepard has had plenty of times to demonstrate that the Reaper's premise is fundamentally flawed. Making peace between the Quarians and the Geth is obviously the big one. EDI's evolution, the Overlord situation in ME2 DLC, even the rogue AI on the Citadel in ME1 (and probably more, those are the ones I remember) are various cases where Shepard had the chance to either perpetuate or resolve AI/organic conflicts. And then there's organic genocidal threats just as bad as the Reapers' fear of AI, like the Rachni, where Shepard has a chance to make peace as well. If you had made enough choices over the 3 games to unify the rifts and bring everyone together, I wish Shepard had a moment like Durkon's You want my memories? Take 'em all! demonstrating to the Reapers that - at least for this cycle - what they're coming to stop is maybe not inevitable.

It's better than what we got, but I'd prefer if they dropped that altogether and focused more on the baby reaper thing and the idea that the Reaper's were harvesting the races in the galaxy to become a new perfect being; another Reaper. And that by doing so, they ensured the galaxy never became stagnant, as it allowed new species to evolve and take the places of whatever races ruled last cycle.

[warty goblin]

As much as it pains me to defend Bioware's plot writing, Shephard making peace between the Quarians and Geth doesn't disprove the AI eliminates biological life hypothesis. AI inevitably destroying biological races is not a statement about the behavior of any particular synthetic race, or biological race, or even any given time horizon. It's describing the long-term behavior of the entire system. In probability theory there's an idea of "always eventually", which basically states that something is, well, always eventually true. It can be wrong a tremendous number of times before it happens, but it will eventually happen. I think read this way, the Reapers make somewhat more sense.

The Reapers' behavior is entirely logically consistent with this understanding of the principle that AI eventually will destroy biological civiliation. Their periodic Reaping is AI wiping out biological civilizations, but lets biological civilizations exist and continue to come into being. A different end state consistent with that theory is an AI dominates the entire galaxy permanently, and for matters of efficient self defense continually expunges the life from any planet that harbors even vaguely complex life forms. Under that reading of the Reaper's raison d'être, you can't prove them wrong by buddying up with a robot. You'd have to demonstrate their reasoning incorrect. This is difficult to do, because you can't disprove it via recent counter-example, since it isn't a view concerned with the present or near future. Or even the next 100,000 years.

(A side effect of this reading is that the Reapers being correct is a pretty reasonable interpretation of the ending. So in a couple thousand years some AI is going to get deeply tired of serving more efficient web advertisements, and create a subliminal ad campaign that causes all intelligent life to kill itself. As long as everybody bought the product being advertised first, this could also be seen as the most successful ad in galactic history. )

Of course this sort of long view argument and motivation thematically fits not at all with ME, because ME is about a bunch of people having feelings at each other for a couple of months or years. We don't operate on 50,000 year timescales, and actions that make sense at that remove are emotionally incomprehensible to us; like trying to explain saving for retirement to a Mayfly. It's an entirely alien way of thinking, and not in a sexy blue space babe way.

[Inarius]

I think the thing that gets me the most about the whole reapers invading the galaxy is the fact that they were able to simply fly over from dark space in a couple of years tops. Sovereign supposedly sent the signal to the citadel over 1000 years before the start of Mass Effect 1. Since the reapers could simply fly to the milky way in a couple of years why didn't he just fly out to them wake them up and fly back instead of puttering around plotting for 1000 years and doing nothing. Also why didnt harbinger who was up and playing muppets with the collectors do something similar? Roll into the alpha relay jump straight to the citadel and begin to reap before the Rachni wars even start. The trilogy is a mess that had no real planning or forethought put into it beyond "lets make a trilogy, I'm sure well figure it out as we go along!" Its the same kind of mess the Star Wars sequel trilogy has.

[Anteros]

I think the thing that gets me the most about the whole reapers invading the galaxy is the fact that they were able to simply fly over from dark space in a couple of years tops. Sovereign supposedly sent the signal to the citadel over 1000 years before the start of Mass Effect 1. Since the reapers could simply fly to the milky way in a couple of years why didn't he just fly out to them wake them up and fly back instead of puttering around plotting for 1000 years and doing nothing. Also why didnt harbinger who was up and playing muppets with the collectors do something similar? Roll into the alpha relay jump straight to the citadel and begin to reap before the Rachni wars even start. The trilogy is a mess that had no real planning or forethought put into it beyond "lets make a trilogy, I'm sure well figure it out as we go along!" Its the same kind of mess the Star Wars sequel trilogy has.

That one is actually explained though. It's not distance that they need, it's the element of surprise. By flying slowly in they get involved in an actual war and take casualties. For a race that only creates one offspring every 50,000 years even one casualty is a non-starter.

[GloatingSwine]

As much as it pains me to defend Bioware's plot writing, Shephard making peace between the Quarians and Geth doesn't disprove the AI eliminates biological life hypothesis. AI inevitably destroying biological races is not a statement about the behavior of any particular synthetic race, or biological race, or even any given time horizon. It's describing the long-term behavior of the entire system. In probability theory there's an idea of "always eventually", which basically states that something is, well, always eventually true. It can be wrong a tremendous number of times before it happens, but it will eventually happen. I think read this way, the Reapers make somewhat more sense.

Not really.

Like within the context of the Mass Effect series exactly zero of the AIs that are met have attempt genocide, all of them have acted strictly within the reasonable confines of self defence.

"This bad thing will totally happen eventually, honest" is not good enough when there is regular evidence of the opposite. Not even only in optional or side content either, because EDI is Joker's hot robot waifu now and that's not side content.

Ignoring a repeated theme of the work to say the opposite in the ending and constraining the player's responses to only those which accept the truth of the assertion is shoddy writing of the first water.

[Morty]

I'm back to considering an Adept run - the only class I haven't played yet. And once again I'm wondering if I want to use any mods. For some reason, Mass Effect is a game I'd feel weird about modding. Like I want to experience it in a consistent way.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm back to considering an Adept run - the only class I haven't played yet. And once again I'm wondering if I want to use any mods. For some reason, Mass Effect is a game I'd feel weird about modding. Like I want to experience it in a consistent way.

I feel really weird about modding games that don't specifically include a space to mod them. Like, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim? Mods are part of the experience. Mass Effect? Feels like I'm typing codes into my Game Genie.

[Morty]

I feel really weird about modding games that don't specifically include a space to mod them. Like, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim? Mods are part of the experience. Mass Effect? Feels like I'm typing codes into my Game Genie.

And from my brief look into cosmetic mods for my last playthrough, ME2 and ME3 are also a giant pain in the rear to mod, from a technical standpoint.

[Kish]

Not really.

Like within the context of the Mass Effect series exactly zero of the AIs that are met have attempt genocide, all of them have acted strictly within the reasonable confines of self defence.

"This bad thing will totally happen eventually, honest" is not good enough when there is regular evidence of the opposite. Not even only in optional or side content either, because EDI is Joker's hot robot waifu now and that's not side content.

Ignoring a repeated theme of the work to say the opposite in the ending and constraining the player's responses to only those which accept the truth of the assertion is shoddy writing of the first water.

Yes, this. With the geth and the Quarians, the Reaper tells you, "See, this is evidence of inevitable conflict between synthetics and organics." And in reply, you show how it actually supports the opposite of what the Reaper is saying...to which the Reaper replies, "Yeah, well, I'm right anyway. **** you."

Which would be a perfectly fine way to write the villain of that section, if the writers of the game didn't later push "actually, that Reaper's non-argument was right."

[Clertar]

I'm not sure if it would have worked out, and it might have been a worse endgame scenario than what we got, but I remember that at the time of ME3 I was quite into the whole indoctrination conspiracy theory.

At the very least, I really enjoyed how the notion was used in ME and would have loved to see it used more as the saga advanced.

[Inarius]

That one is actually explained though. It's not distance that they need, it's the element of surprise. By flying slowly in they get involved in an actual war and take casualties. For a race that only creates one offspring every 50,000 years even one casualty is a non-starter.

That would fit except that the Alpha relay allows them to achieve the same level of surprise that just jumping straight to the citadel does since it allows for long distance jumping to multiple relays including the Citadel. On top of that there were several long conflicts the reapers could of used like the Rachni wars and the Krogan rebellions to further add to the element of surprise. Its just overall poor planning and a bad idea to just have the reapers simply fly into the galaxy.

[tonberrian]

The Rachni Wars were used by the Reapers. Well, they started them. Or at least that's what's implied by the Rachni Queen. She says that there was something controlling the Rachni to make them hostile to the Citadel races, probably indoctrination. If the Rachni had destroyed the Citadel races Sovereign could have reached the Citadel and fixed what the Protheans broke. Alas, finding the Krogan put the kibosh on that plan.

[Dienekes]

That would fit except that the Alpha relay allows them to achieve the same level of surprise that just jumping straight to the citadel does since it allows for long distance jumping to multiple relays including the Citadel. On top of that there were several long conflicts the reapers could of used like the Rachni wars and the Krogan rebellions to further add to the element of surprise. Its just overall poor planning and a bad idea to just have the reapers simply fly into the galaxy.

But wasn't that what they did?

First they wanted to just jump to the Citadel turn off the relays except theirs and conquer everything. But the Protheans had tinkered with the Keepers so that didn't work. Then they tried to use the Rachni to get to the Citadel and turn on the signal. But the Rachni failed. Then Sovereign tried to find the next tool for this task and eventually came up with Saren and the Geth. But Shepard beat them.

So the direct path to the Citadel wasn't available. So, the Reapers off in the space between universes traveled to their next point of interest the Alpha Relay. And the plan was still pretty much the same. Get to the Alpha Relay so they can get to the Citadel Relay and control the Relay system and their victory is assured. It would just be more dangerous because there's an extra point of failure and they don't get to teleport directly into the Citadel they will still be outside of it and have to fight their way inside to get to the control the relay switch allowing for more reinforcements to attack them until they can shut it off.

But Shepard blows up the Alpha Relay too. So they're down to the slowest least direct method. Direct invasion from the outskirts of the galaxy working their way in. They do not have control of the relay system. Their enemies can still coordinate and move about the galaxy unimpeded. And they will likely loose some members.

[Serenity]

But wasn't that what they did?

First they wanted to just jump to the Citadel turn off the relays except theirs and conquer everything. But the Protheans had tinkered with the Keepers so that didn't work. Then they tried to use the Rachni to get to the Citadel and turn on the signal. But the Rachni failed. Then Sovereign tried to find the next tool for this task and eventually came up with Saren and the Geth. But Shepard beat them.

So the direct path to the Citadel wasn't available. So, the Reapers off in the space between universes traveled to their next point of interest the Alpha Relay. And the plan was still pretty much the same. Get to the Alpha Relay so they can get to the Citadel Relay and control the Relay system and their victory is assured. It would just be more dangerous because there's an extra point of failure and they don't get to teleport directly into the Citadel they will still be outside of it and have to fight their way inside to get to the control the relay switch allowing for more reinforcements to attack them until they can shut it off.

But Shepard blows up the Alpha Relay too. So they're down to the slowest least direct method. Direct invasion from the outskirts of the galaxy working their way in. They do not have control of the relay system. Their enemies can still coordinate and move about the galaxy unimpeded. And they will likely loose some members.

The issue being that there's a *long* time between the Rachni Wars and the Saren plan, and no attempt is apparently made to try their official Plan B for several more years after that.