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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    DA 1 and 3 lacked any sort of "blue/orange meter" separate from what your companions thought of you.

    (DA2 called it "diplomatic," "snarky," or "aggressive," so I had to find out the hard way that the game did incorporate the assumption that you were a good person if you were Diplomatic and a psychopath if you were Aggressive.)
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Didn't DA:I work this way? You could build a reputation with each part member separately from your blue/orange meter? Obviously some members liked certain blue or orange options, but those weren't inherently detrimental to the individual party member.
    I don't recall Inquisition having any such mechanic. DA2 defined your relationship with each individual party members as either Friend or Rival depending on where you were on their respective opinion meter, which may be what you're think of.
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Every Dragon Age game has an "approval meter", separate for each companion. The difference is that DA2 has the friendship/rivalry dualism and the meters are hidden in Inquisition. DA:I is also the only game where your companions' attitude can change even if they're absent when you make a decision, I think.

    I'm honestly not a huge fan of approval meters, but they're better than Paragon/Renegade, at least.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    DA 1 and 3 lacked any sort of "blue/orange meter" separate from what your companions thought of you.

    (DA2 called it "diplomatic," "snarky," or "aggressive," so I had to find out the hard way that the game did incorporate the assumption that you were a good person if you were Diplomatic and a psychopath if you were Aggressive.)
    I quite liked the changing dialogue tone and sometimes text based on whether you were a serious/flippant/psycho Hawke.

    DA2 had a lot of great ideas, some of them executed well. Shame only the pants on head stupid parts of it carried over to Inquisition.

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    The biggest problems I had with the system in DAI was that you're forced to pander to your teammates, even if they're complete morons like Solas, or terrible people like Sera or else you're locked out of content. I much preferred the rivalry system of DA2 where you could call people out on their nonsense.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    So, there was apparently a teaser trailer for the next Mass Effect dropped at the Game Awards tonight. It's vague, but we do get a look at an Asari who may be Liara picking up a broken fragment of N7 armor, and the message at the end that "Mass Effect will Continue." Given the general imagery of the trailer, we may be looking at them doing what many in this thread speculated and following up on the original trilogy with the Destroy ending as canon. Which... well, definitely not my preference, but okay, I'd prefer that to an Andromeda follow-up (since I don't want to play that game). We'll see what they end up doing, I suppose. If the first things we hear are again "open world" and "the Mako's back," I'll lose interest as fast as I did with Andromeda, but maybe this'll be a return to form more in the style of the original trilogy instead. For now, I can hope.

    Also, since Dragon Age is getting discussed a lot too, there was a teaser for next game in that series... which tells us even less than the Mass Effect trailer. Basically my takeaways from it amount to "Varric is probably back", and "Solas is in it." To which my reactions are "nice" and "well, obviously," respectively.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2020-12-11 at 12:46 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    The biggest problems I had with the system in DAI was that you're forced to pander to your teammates, even if they're complete morons like Solas, or terrible people like Sera or else you're locked out of content. I much preferred the rivalry system of DA2 where you could call people out on their nonsense.
    On the other hand, I think that's fine. I absolutely called Sera out on her bull and told her that her presence was no longer welcome, and TBH I think that was a far more immersive approach than just giving her a talking to and she completely changes her behaviour. Sure, I miss a bit of content with her later on, but considering I find it annoying when a game bends over backwards to allow you to access everything even if it doesn't make much sense for it to do so, that's A-OK with me.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    So, there was apparently a teaser trailer for the next Mass Effect dropped at the Game Awards tonight. It's vague, but we do get a look at an Asari who may be Liara picking up a broken fragment of N7 armor, and the message at the end that "Mass Effect will Continue." Given the general imagery of the trailer, we may be looking at them doing what many in this thread speculated and following up on the original trilogy with the Destroy ending as canon. Which... well, definitely not my preference, but okay, I'd prefer that to an Andromeda follow-up (since I don't want to play that game). We'll see what they end up doing, I suppose. If the first things we hear are again "open world" and "the Mako's back," I'll lose interest as fast as I did with Andromeda, but maybe this'll be a return to form more in the style of the original trilogy instead. For now, I can hope.
    Not surprising, but I do hope they don't play it too safe and abandon the good ideas Andromeda did have, like lack of classes. Or frantically backtrack and try to replicate ME1 in general. We'll see.

    I think I'm just getting fed up with sequels in general. Mass Effect was a good game that spawned a good if flawed (with emphasis on the former or the latter as you please) series. I don't know if it's necessary to keep it going after over a decade.

    Also, since Dragon Age is getting discussed a lot too, there was a teaser for next game in that series... which tells us even less than the Mass Effect trailer. Basically my takeaways from it amount to "Varric is probably back", and "Solas is in it." To which my reactions are "nice" and "well, obviously," respectively.
    I don't know about Varric. I like him as much as the next person, but he's wearing a little thin by now. The writers are leaning on players' sympathy for him too much. Otherwise, yes, there's nothing here we didn't expect.
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    On the other hand, I think that's fine. I absolutely called Sera out on her bull and told her that her presence was no longer welcome, and TBH I think that was a far more immersive approach than just giving her a talking to and she completely changes her behaviour. Sure, I miss a bit of content with her later on, but considering I find it annoying when a game bends over backwards to allow you to access everything even if it doesn't make much sense for it to do so, that's A-OK with me.
    I kinda agree and kinda don't. I don't mind losing annoying bit characters like Sera who don't really tie into the main plot. On the other hand, if you lose a character like Anders, or Morrigan you end up missing out on a huge chunk of the plot. DAI got around this by having all of their missable characters like Blackwall, Sera, Iron Bull, Vivienne basically irrelevant to the main plot of the game. I don't think that's a very good solution either.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I kinda agree and kinda don't. I don't mind losing annoying bit characters like Sera who don't really tie into the main plot. On the other hand, if you lose a character like Anders, or Morrigan you end up missing out on a huge chunk of the plot. DAI got around this by having all of their missable characters like Blackwall, Sera, Iron Bull, Vivienne basically irrelevant to the main plot of the game. I don't think that's a very good solution either.
    Well, the best solution would be that if you did kick someone you didn't like out of the party it would come back to bite you later on--e.g. you end up having to fight Sera in some later part of the game. Difficult and expensive to do, of course, which is why it hardly ever happens in modern RPGs.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Well, the best solution would be that if you did kick someone you didn't like out of the party it would come back to bite you later on--e.g. you end up having to fight Sera in some later part of the game. Difficult and expensive to do, of course, which is why it hardly ever happens in modern RPGs.
    PoE: Deadfire had a mechanic like that: depending on your choice of endgame faction (or saying "**** it, I'm going in alone") none or up to 2 companions could end up leaving. Then, in said endgame, you'd face a rival faction which may have the related crewmate with them.

    I really disliked having to kill a companion that way, but loved the fact that your companions stick to their convictions.

    EDIT: apparently, there's also a variant of "dragon age keep", the story log for import of previous games in inquisition and later installments of dragon age, up for mass effect: "Mass Effect vault". Seems to have separate tracks for the classic trilogy and andromeda.

    EDIT: it's "Mass Effect Archives", not vault.
    Last edited by Taevyr; 2020-12-11 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Taevyr View Post
    EDIT: apparently, there's also a variant of "dragon age keep", the story log for import of previous games in inquisition and later installments of dragon age, up for mass effect: "Mass Effect vault". Seems to have separate tracks for the classic trilogy and andromeda.
    Last I checked it also couldn't be used to create a world-state (or galaxy-state as the case may be) to use in an actual game, but maybe that will change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I think I'm just getting fed up with sequels in general. Mass Effect was a good game that spawned a good if flawed (with emphasis on the former or the latter as you please) series. I don't know if it's necessary to keep it going after over a decade.
    I'm definitely not. Mass Effect has an interesting setting in which you can definitely tell other stories - as long as there's an interest in more on both the part of players and the developers, I see no reason not to continue using it. Besides, without sequels many of my favorite games of all time wouldn't exist. It's very rare for franchises that run for more than a game or two to have their best entry be one of their earliest, at least in my experience.

    Which isn't to say I assume the new Mass Effect will definitely be something good, as indicated before I'll definitely be skeptical at least until we get some details of how it'll play, and they're very much capable of losing my interest. But I'm always going to be willing to find out what they're doing first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I don't know about Varric. I like him as much as the next person, but he's wearing a little thin by now. The writers are leaning on players' sympathy for him too much. Otherwise, yes, there's nothing here we didn't expect.
    Eh, Varric's a fun enough character that I won't complain if they use him in every Dragon Age game at this point.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2020-12-11 at 04:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Eh, Varric's a fun enough character that I won't complain if they use him in every Dragon Age game at this point.
    I like Varric, but I think giving him reasons to stick around in future installments would become increasingly contrived. And his history and character has been thoroughly explored: there's little new that can be done with him. I wouldn't mind an appearance during a main quest or something, but not as a companion.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Taevyr View Post
    I like Varric, but I think giving him reasons to stick around in future installments would become increasingly contrived. And his history and character has been thoroughly explored: there's little new that can be done with him. I wouldn't mind an appearance during a main quest or something, but not as a companion.
    It would be especially weird if they set it either (or both)
    * in a different time (rather than the years after DA:O)
    * or in a wildly different place. It's rather straining credulity for him to always turn up wherever something interesting is going on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taevyr View Post
    I like Varric, but I think giving him reasons to stick around in future installments would become increasingly contrived. And his history and character has been thoroughly explored: there's little new that can be done with him. I wouldn't mind an appearance during a main quest or something, but not as a companion.
    Fair - though it's entirely possible they could use him as a supporting NPC instead of a companion, like Leliana in Inquisition. Though in this case his "I've got your back" line narrating that teaser does feel like it implies him being a companion to me. Still, as with almost everything about the game, remains to be seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    It would be especially weird if they set it either (or both)
    * in a different time (rather than the years after DA:O)
    * or in a wildly different place. It's rather straining credulity for him to always turn up wherever something interesting is going on.
    It's actually quite easy.

    The entire game is just Varric narrating one of his novels.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Why would it be weird if Varric showed up? Varric is part of the Inquisition. The Inquisition is heading to Tevinter. DA4 will take place in Tevinter. Makes perfect sense he would show up.

    I don't think he'll be an actual companion this time, though, but probably more like one of the advisors from the last game.

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    I never really got Varric's popularity in the first place. He's fine but mostly forgettable. He's just ripped straight off a generic TV trope page like most of Dragon Age's characters.

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    Varric is great in DA2 because he's an anachronism; he's like a character from a 40s noir film set in LA but somehow existing in this medieval fantasy setting.

    By Inquisition he's been toned down into just being "the snarky one", unfortunately.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    My concerns about Varric appearing have little to do with Varric himself and whether or not I like him - the problem is that instead of showing us something new to be excited about, they're relying on drumming up sympathy by letting us hear an old favorite. It's not very inspiring.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    So, on Mass Effect, I'm kinda semi hoping that they keep classes? Don't get me wrong, I LOVED the freedom available in Andromeda's character creation, but I also know that, without classes, I'm likely to pick the same thing, every time. Something autonomous (turret, drone, or Peejee's drone), two ranged attacks of different elements (if they keep the Andromeda set-up, a "Charge" and a "Detonate" power), and concentrating on assault rifles at first, and carrying them pretty much exclusively.

    With differing classes, I'm at least curious about "How would an Engineer play?"
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2020-12-12 at 10:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, on Mass Effect, I'm kinda semi hoping that they keep classes? Don't get me wrong, I LOVED the freedom available in Andromeda's character creation, but I also know that, without classes, I'm likely to pick the same thing, every time. Something autonomous (turret, drone, or Peejee's drone), two ranged attacks of different elements (if they keep the Andromeda set-up, a "Charge" and a "Detonate" power), and concentrating on assault rifles at first, and carrying them pretty much exclusively.

    With differing classes, I'm at least curious about "How would an Engineer play?"
    This does bring up the question, for those who completed Andromeda (I only played a few missions) how many people consistently used the power switch system? A fairly common criticism I heard was that many people fiddled with it for a bit, but by the end had created their go-to list of powers that allowed them to deal with all defense types and did not switch much if at all.

    Which ended in the sad outcome that despite everyone getting far more freedom to design their character, everyone more or less played the same.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2020-12-12 at 11:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    This does bring up the question, for those who completed Andromeda (I only played a few missions) how many people consistently used the power switch system? A fairly common criticism I heard was that many people fiddled with it for a bit, but by the end had created their go-to list of powers that allowed them to deal with all defense types and did not switch much if at all.

    Which ended in the sad outcome that despite everyone getting far more freedom to design their character, everyone more or less played the same.
    I never did anything with the power switching. Partly because I basically played straight run'n'gun, partially because the powers all felt kinda the same, and partially because I have yet to find a real time action game where combat was improved by spending more time mucking about in menus.
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    Chalk me up as another who never power switched.

    Classes give another form of replayability to the game. Instead of the same gameplay with different story you get different gameplay and story. I like to roll my character class into who my character is. An Infiltrator Shep is more likely to be Renegade. A Soldier Shep is less likely to give Cerberus the time of day, because that Shep defines themselves strongly by their job and is less likely to betray their oaths. Etc etc.

    I want more class specific interrupts too. The Engineer one in the ME2 DLC was a great little surprise. They don't have to be major - just an alternate way of achieving the same result with a couple lines of dialogue acknowledging it. It helps bring your character to life and varies things up when you replay the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    My concerns about Varric appearing have little to do with Varric himself and whether or not I like him - the problem is that instead of showing us something new to be excited about, they're relying on drumming up sympathy by letting us hear an old favorite. It's not very inspiring.
    The problem is, if you have no characters from the old games appearing at all and are creating an entirely disconnected story that just happens to be set in the DA universe, then you end up with a fantasy Andromeda, and I'm not sure anyone wants that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The problem is, if you have no characters from the old games appearing at all and are creating an entirely disconnected story that just happens to be set in the DA universe, then you end up with a fantasy Andromeda, and I'm not sure anyone wants that...
    I don't think that's a very good comparison. I would venture that all, or very close to all, of the people who are excited about DA4 are confident it will continue the unresolved plot from DA3, not do the Andromeda "the story's over but you have money we don't have yet so something else happens somewhere else" thing. If someone had suggested that Solas wouldn't be in DA4 then the Andromeda comparison would be worth making--not Varric.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The problem is, if you have no characters from the old games appearing at all and are creating an entirely disconnected story that just happens to be set in the DA universe, then you end up with a fantasy Andromeda, and I'm not sure anyone wants that...
    Good thing I didn't say anything about no characters from old games appearing, then. Tevinter is also a little closer to Ferelden, Kirkwall and Orlais than Andromeda is to the Milky Way, so we should be good on that front.

    As far as classes and powers go - power switching in Andromeda was bad, but classes are long past their expiration date. Mass Effect is better off without classes, as long as the system used in their place is actually good. Fewer, more impactful powers instead of many fiddly ones that we have to split into sets of three. Even without power sets, at some point I'd taken all I wanted and had to pick powers I wasn't too interested in. Really, the issue is that it was too similar to the old games, just with some bits chopped off. The series needs something new... but, given how the last time went, they're more likely to backtrack right back to classes.
    Last edited by Morty; 2020-12-12 at 03:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    As far as classes and powers go - power switching in Andromeda was bad, but classes are long past their expiration date. Mass Effect is better off without classes, as long as the system used in their place is actually good. Fewer, more impactful powers instead of many fiddly ones that we have to split into sets of three. Even without power sets, at some point I'd taken all I wanted and had to pick powers I wasn't too interested in. Really, the issue is that it was too similar to the old games, just with some bits chopped off. The series needs something new... but, given how the last time went, they're more likely to backtrack right back to classes.
    To delve further. Which abilities did you end up using?

    Now in my opinion, classes have some natural advantages in my view. The game designers can pick a playstyle attach it to a class and create abilities that directly fit that playstyle.

    You want to create abilities that allow someone to get in close with a short range weapon?
    Well in a cover shooter that playstyle would require:

    A means of moving into melee range without being shot.
    A means of not dying once in melee range and out of cover
    A way to break up crowds and get some breathing room for yourself

    And from that Charge gets made pretty much through that process. It solves the get into melee range problem while also solving the needs more durability problem. And then shockwave gets added as a means of breaking up the crowds. Then it gives you room to fine-tune the playstyle if you want to focus more on weapons with the ammos, or crowd control with Pull.

    You end up with a well defined but subtly variable play style.

    But when given just a list of abilities to choose from how likely are people to realize the needs of creating a fun rushdown character, when with the big list of abilities it is much easier and safer to create whatever the most effective/least skill intensive strategy ends up being.

    Not that this game will have to have classes or not. There are other arguments to be made for not having classes, of course. I just don't see classes as inherently bad.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2020-12-12 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect Remastered coming soon and new Mass Effect Game in the Works

    So one of the things I've never liked about classes in RGPs is that they basically ask you to choose how you want to play the game before you actually play the game. If you choose wrong, you've gotta restart the whole darn thing - which usually results in me trying multiple options until finally the idea of playing the first 30 minutes of the game again is just boring beyond reason and I give up. Mass Effect 1 avoided this problem by making all guns so terrible to use (particularly in the beginning) that it honestly didn't matter which one you picked, and the idea of replaying it was pretty much a firm nope. Andromeda side-stepped this problem by not having classes, but it also made leveling up into an utter snoozefest. Once you had a couple abilities that worked ok, getting more didn't really feel all that impactful, and most of the ones I tried felt kinda samey anyway.

    I think it's useful here to look at how other third person open-worldish actiony games do things. Which generally means you have a three-pronged talent tree. Although done basically to death at this point, it does work pretty well, since you get the defined playstyles that come from each tree, but also the ability to pick up abilities from other trees if you want them. Depending on how generous the game is with skill points, and if they level-gate higher tier upgrades on the branches, you may be quite encouraged to diversify your skillset. And it sidesteps the problem of choosing your entire playstyle at minute zero, since if you really hate sniping or whatever, you're only out a couple of skillpoints if you switch to mainlining a different branch.

    The other thing that a lot of similar titles with a bit more action game in their DNA do is that they use the skill tree to gradually add more complexity to your control options, rather than the more RPG-ish approach of just giving you bigger numbers. The 2012 Tomb Raider reboot does a really excellent job of this; by the end of the game you have a much wider set of abilities for combat and traversal than you do at the beginning. Andromeda, to my recollection, really does not do much of this. You've got a set of powers you can swap out, but they're pretty much just more numbers* or different status effects. Which is another thing that makes leveling up uninteresting, it's just more of the same.

    *The gun upgrades in Andromeda are by far the worst offender here. Because they take pretty rare crafting mats, you actually need to choose which guns to keep up to date pretty carefully. But all upgrading them does is stack on some more damage so you can keep up with the number treadmill of enemy HP bars. It's a whole lotta busywork, and it adds up to diddly-squat in terms of actually impacting gameplay. The new guns you find can change the way you play, as can modding them out with different ammo types and so on, but the upgrading is utterly pointless RPG crap.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

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