Wait... did I just find a use for spring attack?

[mabriss lethe]

I've been brainstorming some "lateral thinking" strategies, mostly concerning core/srd materials. Playing around with one of the builds, I actually came across a case use where Spring Attack is actually a good tactic.

It's Monday Monkday, so we'll use a monk for the example. Which os funny, because it works fairly well for this.

Let's start with the big caveat. This works best against humanoid enemies. It's much less likely to work against monsters, and that's OK.

Instead of a normal attack, we're (assuming Monk 6+) going to Trip. Yes, for a monk, that's very situational to be effective. But that's alright. We can assume for the sake of the demonstration that Mr. Monk can pull it off. When he trips the guy, he gets a follow up with another attack from Improved Trip. So he uses that to Stun, then keeps moving to his real objective (whatever that might be) further down the line. Our opponent is now prone, unarmed, and unable to act.
Assuming a humanoid opponent, it will take him a while to sort himself out and get back into the fight. (Letting stun lapse, getting up from prone, and rearming) It's a decent tactic to string out enemies and keep them from mobbing the party, or softening up a target for a better damage dealer in the party to handle while you go work over the next foe.

This methodology takes care of a number of the problems folks have when trying to spring attack. 1st. Damage: since you aren't trying to inflict damage so much as debuff your enemy, how much HP they lose to your shenanigans is irrelevant. 2nd. Being within Charge distance. Even a monk's land speed isn't enough to escape being charged by their foe after spring attacking. But by being prone and stunned they won't be immediately able to make good on that. 3rd. Even if you miss the first time, there is a good chance that you have made yourself a priority target and draw some heat from squishier allies.

Now, obviously there are better ways to accomplish similar goals outside of core. But that wasn't the point. I thought I'd take something with some valid complaints and figure out a way to make it work.

[Telonius]

That's pretty much what the feat is supposed to do; you move, attack (either hit or miss, drop the enemy or don't), then move somewhere else if you don't want to be in that square (either because the enemy is scary and you didn't drop him, or he's dead/unconscious/stunned and there's no point in staying there).

I don't think anybody would say that the ability to kite an enemy like that is totally useless; there's a reason Anklets of Translocation are such a strongly-recommended item. The bigger problem with Spring Attack isn't what it does, it's what's required to do it: two prereq feats (Dodge and Mobility), Dex 13, and a BAB of +4. Even if you're playing a Fighter in a Core-only environment, that's a whole lot of investment to get something that's only going to be useful situationally. You only get 7 regular feats between levels 1 and 20 (8 if you're human), and that trick occupies three of them.

[mabriss lethe]

Oh no. The movement wasn't the part I was highlighting. That just does what it does. I was dialing in on using it to trip and other debuff effects thay ruin the enemy's action economy instead of trying to turn it into a damage vector.

And as for being a fairly heavy feat burden. You're not wrong for most any other class. I was iterating off of a single class monk and that was one of the feat branches I explored. I found that in a core only environment, there isn't a whole lot of competition for feats with monks.

There's just not a lot in the PHB that benefits them and they get most of what does help baked in by level 6 and everything else they could want is easy enough to fit in by 12. I was even taking some dumb feats and still had some wiggle room over the course of 20 levels.

I mean, if you prioritize strength, then Weapon finesse is useless. Flurry is like a baked in TWF. The mounted combat tree isn't terribly helpful considering your ground speed. The only ranged feat you could want with most builds is Rapid Reload to aid in crossbow plinking. Power Attack is nice even with 3/4 BAB, but Cleave isn't particularly valuable when you have flurry, combat reflexes, and Improved Trip to generate extra atracks. Save boosters are even more useless for you than anyone else because all your saves are good. Skill boosters are a waste since you have very little in the way of skills that you live and die by. You can, oddly enough, get some mileage out of weapon proficiency feats to get some reach options outside of flurry.
You can take some better advantage of the bonuses granted by monk weapons with Quick Draw. Improved Initiative is generally useful but not strictly necessary. You probably don't have the Intelligence to make good use of the Expertise chain and you get the best of that chain for free without any prerequisites. If you're feeling silly you even qualify for Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 12th with Abundant Step. Dodge is still the donkey of a feat it's always been, but mobility combined wiht tumble lets you pick and choose which attackers to provoke AoOs from and have a decent shot of surviving the process. Making you a decent distraction to let the rogue or other squishy get into position without getting swatted by an AoO. And then Spring attack. If you've already gone for Mobility, it's not much of a burden to pick it up and ands a new dimension to your ability to move that you can take unique advantage of.

You have plenty of room on a monk to build out 2 or 3 tactical options to a useful degree and still have feats to spare.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Combining with trip and stun seems besides the point, because you could accomplish whatever special attack you want either way. In other words, without spring attack, you could move to your target, trip, and stun as normal. What spring attack is getting you is the ability to move, attack one target, and then move to another target.

But then, why not just go directly to the most important target and trip/stun them?

[mabriss lethe]

Combining with trip and stun seems besides the point, because you could accomplish whatever special attack you want either way. In other words, without spring attack, you could move to your target, trip, and stun as normal. What spring attack is getting you is the ability to move, attack one target, and then move to another target.

But then, why not just go directly to the most important target and trip/stun them?

Trip and stun combined put a greater burden on the opponent's action economy to recover from with no real loss to your own economy.

As for the final objective. There's nothing that says it's reachable in the turn or necessarily even an attack you need to make. But let's say it is.

Initiative order is Monk, Enemy 1, Ally, Enemy 2. Enemy 1 is moving towards Ally to support Enemy 2 in flanking your Ally or maybe lined up for a charge. With your land speed, you can spring attack E1 and land in position to threaten E2. If you lead off with a successful trip, the opponent is prone and you get an immediate follow-up shot. If you stun him, he's now unable to take any actions for a round and he'll probably need to spend the next round taking 2 move equivalent actions to get up from prone and rearm himself since stun makes you drop everything held, or draw another weapon as part of a move, but it'll likely be inferior to the first weapon he held. In that time, monk and Ally can take out the other enemy and have a united front to face our stunned enemy.

If you missed that trip, you can opt to stay put and tangle with Enemy 1 until he's down. If your Ally is in dire straights, it still might benefit the situation to threaten the other Enemy for your Ally's attack. (Maybe putting yourself in the line to block a charge on your Ally)

[gijoemike]

Spring attack is actually an excellent feat when used properly on a character that has decent movement speed.

A fighter can spring directly forward to an enemy, stab them, then move around them to the back and provide a flank for the charging barbarian. If the fighter didn't have spring attack they may block the barbarian or not provide the flank.

A melee could spring past an enemy stepping into a far flank, then spring back further into the enemies' back line and now threaten the wizard. Unless the enemy front line has 100% physical coverage of every square, it nullifies the concept of meat shield. Also remember tumbling takes up 10ft of move per square. Spring attack does not.

Enemy has superior reach, like a dragon or enlarged spike chain wielding giant, or basically anything scary to the standard melee PC. Spring Attacking PC says I walk up and stab him in the face. Then chose not to spring back or just 5" to the side. There are entire archetypes of characters that have trouble with spring attackers due to shutting down reach.

The only problem with spring attack is having a 2 feat tax and Mobility is very lackluster since Mobility and Spring Attack do not work together. I have always suggested the Mobility be rolled into spring attack to reduce the feat tax to just Dodge. So that while SpA cancels the OoO from the primary target all other OoO from that movement are against +4 AC.

[liquidformat]

I mean in SRD only games this is a vaguely common build for monks and can be decent for BFC though it still falls very short of SRD only Barbarian/fighter/horizon tripper build.

Specifically because monks are so MAD, to pull this off you need high str to actually be able to trip, high wis to actually be able to stun, and decent dex to take advantage of Combat Reflexes and you are in the hole to begin with since your bab is medium.

On the flipside a barbarian really only needs to use a Guisarme or invest a feat into spiked chain, go wolf totem so he acquires improved trip without CE, and take Knock-down at level 3. There is a reason Orc (Water Orc) Barbarian is the go to for tripping since it can compete with monsters you bump into and legitimately do a good job as a lockdown build.

[noob]

I think spring attack is bad because flyby attack is easier to qualify for and does the same thing.

[mabriss lethe]

I mean in SRD only games this is a vaguely common build for monks and can be decent for BFC though it still falls very short of SRD only Barbarian/fighter/horizon tripper build.

Specifically because monks are so MAD, to pull this off you need high str to actually be able to trip, high wis to actually be able to stun, and decent dex to take advantage of Combat Reflexes and you are in the hole to begin with since your bab is medium.

On the flipside a barbarian really only needs to use a Guisarme or invest a feat into spiked chain, go wolf totem so he acquires improved trip without CE, and take Knock-down at level 3. There is a reason Orc (Water Orc) Barbarian is the go to for tripping since it can compete with monsters you bump into and legitimately do a good job as a lockdown build.

I mean, yeah, most classes can do it better than Monk, that's not saying much. The monk is a very low bar to jump. That's why I use them for a lot of challenge builds, because if a monk can kind of manage something, imagine what a dedicated build could do. And seeing as it's Monday Monkday, and I was already toying with various monk builds for giggles, that's why I was using it as an example.

Mad for monks is a problem, I won't lie, but it isn't as huge of a problem as it's often made to be. Prioritizing Str, decent scores in the other big 3, 10 in Int, and completely dumping Cha is doable. Having a high dex is nice, but you can get away with something that just accents your combat reflexes early on and fill in with dex boosters later. Being honest, the real return on investment for Combat reflexes is either Dex 14 or 16. The likelihood that a character needs to make more than 3 AoOs per round is low but possible and more than 4 is negligible. Especially when you consider that monks have no native access to reach weapons. (The build in question that I'm toying with actually uses the martial proficiency feat to snag a guisarme.) And while wisdom helps stun dcs, by mid levels most of the heavy lifting is coming from your character level, and again ability score items are usually plentiful. Also, while negligible, your self healing and good saves lets you skimp a bit on Con. So yeah, they're all very useful to get as high a score as possible, but tbh, you don't need them quite as high as most folks seem to think you do to function semi reliably. And semi reliable is all you can really ask out of a monk.

As for 3/4 BAB? Yeah, it's kind of lame, but power attack is still often used unmodifed by many PCs. Which can often drop a full BAB character below the 3/4 level with no complaints. (I'm forgetting the name of the feat that lets you trade AC for BAB in a power attack.) Combine that with the sorts of methods Rogues use to land their hits that monks can just as easily use and it's a bit of a non-issue.

I think spring attack is bad because flyby attack is easier to qualify for and does the same thing.

That's kind of a non-issue with this. The build in question and the underlying assumptions relies on feats from the PHB. and flyby, while in the SRD is a monster feat from MM and not relevant to the discussion.

[ericgrau]

I think people tend to underestimate defense and tactical movement because it's harder to measure. I tend to favor SAB and archer rogues over TWF rogues. Because you can't full attack if the squishy rogue falls unconscious. Or if your first target dropped to quickly. Spring attack is likewise handy on a rogue. Especially one with some kind of speed boost. It could probably work out well on a barbarian too due to his AC, though he doesn't have the rogue's HP problem. Or anybody to some degree. Everybody including the barbarian frequently drops from damage and everyone can be targeted in D&D. The MMO tank concept simply doesn't exist in 95% of D&D (some books kinda have something, sure). Kiting is a thought too with countless uses. It takes party cooperation but that's not necessarily difficult. They might already be casters or ranged or etc. Find or make some cover for the party, boost your speed, etc. and you can get a major tactical advantage over many enemies.

Sure, ya it could probably work on a monk with special attacks too. Especially with his touch AC, saves and speed he could become a bit of a nuisance to the enemy. You give up some flurries but that's part of the give and take, and like I said before you can't always full attack anyway.

I also have to mention that all core feats are weaker than some non-core feat. All of the above is for a core or similar power level environment (ignoring core infinite loops and similar silly nonsense). Comparing to non-core feats simply isn't fair. Those who play with a lot of non-core feats may want to beef up the core ones, sure, or else restrict or nerf the stronger non-core ones. The expected power level will vary from group to group so I won't give a hard answer for that. But the idea to reduce the feat cost of the chain is a good example. Like I said if so you should then do this for nearly all the other core feats.

[mattie_p]

As a (the?) judge in the current Iron Chef, I believe that Diving Hawk and I found a use (completely unexpectedly) for Spring Attack. Emphasis on spring. Check the dispute and response.

[gijoemike]

I think spring attack is bad because flyby attack is easier to qualify for and does the same thing.

Except it doesnt. FBA let's you have a standard action at any point during a move action in which the pc is flying. This doesnt stop any movement aoos, but it let's you cast a spell which is far more powerful. But fly by attack is no where near as useful for a melee character than spring attack is.


Archers - fba
Casters - fba
Bog standard melee - spring attack

[Darg]

Except it doesnt. FBA let's you have a standard action at any point during a move action in which the pc is flying. This doesnt stop any movement aoos, but it let's you cast a spell which is far more powerful. But fly by attack is no where near as useful for a melee character than spring attack is.


Archers - fba
Casters - fba
Bog standard melee - spring attack

Flying when not perfect doesn't have the same maneuverability spring attack does naturally, nor does it have the AoO negation. Flyby attack is also only usable while flying and doesn't allow you double movement.

It's also extremely useful in other situations. It lets you double move and make an attack without the restrictions of charging. It lets you move and attack when staggered or otherwise spent your move action on something else. Heck, you can even ready a spring attack.

The tactical options the feat opens up are tremendous. One of my favorite is getting in an attack while denying your opponent the first full attack. Normally, you'd have to delay your turn or use some form of pounce which can be hard to come by. Another as was mentioned earlier is keeping the charging lane open and even possibly opening up flanking for another ally. Another use I like is taking advantage of fighting defensively/combat expertise/tower shield and dodge and mobility to break through enemy lines to reach the squishy low strength backline while tripping AoOs along the way. This gives you the option to basically shut down a caster with a grapple and it can relieve frontal pressure against your party.

Shot on the Run and Mobile Spell-casting also have perfect maneuverability naturally, allow double movement, and don't require flight to work.

[Particle_Man]

I like this spring attack monk. This makes me want to play in a humanoid heavy (but big monster light) tier 5 campaign.

[Zarvistic]

I don't think it alllows double moving unfortunately. It's more clearly worded in the premium errata. But I think it's fair to still houserule it that way, it can use the boost.

Outside of core, it seems cool to me to use with shi'quos school and elocator if that'd work. Also there is claw gloves in MIC to get 2 attacks and I would think 2 reflex saves as a result. Some tripping with dex and plenty of room to add damage.