Simple RAW Thread for 3.5 #36: The Triple Dozen

[St Fan]

A) It's not ambiguous. It means you make all the attacks immediately, as part of the spell's casting.

B) You cannot hold the charge for chill touch.

C) See above.
D) See above.

Are you saying that a 20-level caster can make 20 touch attacks in the single round the spell is cast?

[Debatra]

I believe Chill Touch is unique in that aspect, but yes.

[St Fan]

Q 111

An observer can feel around to find an invisible target by making a touch attack with appendages or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, the touch attack must hit despite that target’s total concealment. A touch attack that hits deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible target’s current location. If the invisible target then moves, its location becomes unknown again.

A) If I am holding the charge of a touch spell, and I try finding out the location of an invisible target with my bare hands, does managing to touch the creature as explained above also discharge the touch spell into it?

B) Does the spell true strike provide its usual bonuses to such an attempt?

[Doctor Despair]

Q 111



A) If I am holding the charge of a touch spell, and I try finding out the location of an invisible target with my bare hands, does managing to touch the creature as explained above also discharge the touch spell into it?

B) Does the spell true strike provides its usual bonuses to such an attempt?

A111

A: It should work, as you've successfuly made a melee touch attack.

B: It should, but you are still subject to the normal miss chance due to concealment.

A 111 Contention Actually, True strike negates the miss chance for concealment in addition to the +20 to an attack roll.

Ah, fair enough; my bad. I seldom use the spell, so I'd forgotten that part.

[Debatra]

A111

A: It should work, as you've successfuly made a melee touch attack.

B: It should, but you are still subject to the normal miss chance due to concealment.

A 111 Contention Actually, True strike negates the miss chance for concealment in addition to the +20 to an attack roll.

[Troacctid]

Are you saying that a 20-level caster can make 20 touch attacks in the single round the spell is cast?

Yes.

I believe Chill Touch is unique in that aspect, but yes.

There are a handful of other spells that work similarly.

[St Fan]

Q 112

I was pretty sure that incorporeality granted an immunity to sneak attack damage, independently of the creature's actual type, but I can't find it mentioned either in the SRD or Rule Compendium. So, can incorporeal creatures be sneak attacked (on the condition the attack can actually harm them in the first place)?

[Blue Jay]

Q 112

I was pretty sure that incorporeality granted an immunity to sneak attack damage, independently of the creature's actual type, but I can't find it mentioned either in the SRD or Rule Compendium. So, can incorporeal creatures be sneak attacked (on the condition the attack can actually harm them in the first place)?

A 112

It's not in the subtype's description in the Monster Manual glossary, but the PHB's glossary has this:

incorporeal: Having no physical body. Incorporeal creatures are
immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They can be harmed only by
other incorporeal creatures, +1 or better magic weapons, spells,
spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. Even when struck by spells,
magical effects, or magic weapons, however, they have a 50% chance
to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. In addition, rogues
cannot employ sneak attacks against incorporeal beings, since such
opponents have no vital areas to target. An incorporeal creature has
no armor or natural armor bonus (or loses any armor or natural
armor bonus it may have when corporeal), but it gains a deflection
bonus equal to its Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is greater.
Such creatures can move in any direction and even pass through
solid objects at will, but not through force effects. Therefore, their
attacks negate the bonuses provided by natural armor, armor, and
shields, but deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage
armor) work normally against them. Incorporeal creatures have no
weight, do not leave footprints, have no scent and make no noise, so
they cannot be heard with Listen checks unless they wish it.
Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage.

(emphasis added)

I'm not sure how to adjudicate the discrepancy between this and the MM glossary. I think the MM counts as the primary source here; but it doesn't seem like this bit from the PHB glossary directly contradicts anything in the MM, so I guess it still stands as RAW.

Also, the Hypertext SRD's "Special Abilities" section says it much more directly:

Incorporeal creatures are immune to critical hits, extra damage from being favored enemies, and from sneak attacks.

(5th paragraph)

Of course, the provenance of the online SRDs is hard to determine, so I'm not sure if that text actually traces back to an official source.

[St Fan]

Very interesting. My guess is that, since most incorporeal creatures are undead, which are already immune to critical hits/sneak attacks by virtue of their type, it felt redundant to mention it again for the incorporeal subtype and thus is often omitted.

Still on that subject...
Q 112 B
There are some ways to inflict sneak attack damage on undead as if they were living creatures (notably the spell grave strike or the weapon augment greater truedeath crystal).

If the above rule is applied, should such magic allow inflicting sneak attack damage on spectral undead, or does the fact incorporeality prevents sneak attack damage separately from the undead type makes them inefficient?

[KillianHawkeye]

Re: 112

I've checked the 3.0 Monster Manual, the 3.5 Monster Manual, the errata file for the 3.5 Monster Manual, the updated description of the incorporeal subtype in Monster Manuals 3, 4, & 5, the Rules Compendium, and the expanded explanation of how to run incorporeal creatures in Libris Mortis, and I can't find the line about incorporeal creatures ignoring Sneak Attack in ANY of those documents.

The only place I can find it is on page 295 of the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide, which inexplicably contains this additional information.

[St Fan]

Q 113

From this few lines in the SRD...

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.)

Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.)

Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

Please correct me if I'm wrong: casting, for example, a contingency spell from a scroll...

A) Would require just a standard action, not the 10 minutes it usually takes (plus the eventual casting time of the other spell...)

B) Would NOT requires to carry the 1500 gp ivory statuette focus, thus not risking the contingency to fail if lost...

[ciopo]

Q 114
I am a druid under the effect of the wreath of flame spell, I am fightning a troll that drank a resist energy (fire) potion.
Assuming Ican bring the troll to uncounsciousness, can I coup de grace it? Is the wreath of flame rider elemental damage multiplied on the automatic critical hit?

[Khedrac]

A 114 No - because the spell does an additional one dice of damage it is not multipied on a crit (where additional dice are never multiplied).

[ciopo]

Q 115
can an unconscious creature with regeneration be coup-de-grace'd by an attack that does not bypass regeneration?, such as a troll and normal melee damage for an example.

Q 116 how much lethal damage needs to be done to an unconscious creature to kill it? my reading of the Injury and death srd points me at "you need to deal creature total HP+ 10 lethal damage to kill a creature", that it has "1 billion" nonlethal damage does not factor in it at all, but I'd like confirmation that this is correct

[Debatra]

A 115 No.

A 116 Correct. No amount of nonlethal damage can kill a creature.

[Vaern]

A 115 No.

A 116 Correct. No amount of nonlethal damage can kill a creature.

The coup de grace section doesn't specify that lethal damage needs to dealt, only that you must be adjacent to the target. The target can't die from the damage, but it should still force a save vs. death.

[Debatra]

The coup de grace section doesn't specify that lethal damage needs to dealt, only that you must be adjacent to the target. The target can't die from the damage, but it should still force a save vs. death.

True, but the section on regeneration also specifies that you can't coup de grace a creature with regeneration unless you do so with an attack that would deal lethal damage to it.

[Vaern]

True, but the section on regeneration also specifies that you can't coup de grace a creature with regeneration unless you do so with an attack that would deal lethal damage to it.

Whoops, guess that's my bad for not checking for the more specific case under regeneration. I know there's a few odd things that don't care about regeneration, like drowning being considered lethal damage even if the subject has regeneration. I guess the coup de grace death save isn't one of those cases :o

[St Fan]

Q 117

About the Spellthief's Steal Spell ability or the Mage of the Arcane Order's Spellpool...

A)

A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away.

The spell appears in the caster's mind at the beginning of his next turn and can be used immediately. However, if he does not cast the called spell within a number of minutes equal to his caster level, it fades from his mind as though cast.

Does that means that spells with a casting time greater than these limits (some spells take 30 minutes, an hour or more to cast) cannot be cast at all through Spellpool or Steal Spell?

B) Does a character who's a Dweomerkeeper in addition to either of these classes can use the Supernatural Spell ability on a stolen spell or a spell called from the Spellpool?

[Bowbreaker]

Q 118
This has probably been asked many times:

If I have the Improved Trip feat and am wielding a one-handed non-trip weapon (like a Longsword) and a shield, or a two-handed non-trip weapon (like a Greatsword), can I use my legs to trip without provoking an AoO and then follow that up with an attack from my weapon if I successfully drop my opponent prone?

[Troacctid]

Q 117

About the Spellthief's Steal Spell ability or the Mage of the Arcane Order's Spellpool...

A)




Does that means that spells with a casting time greater than these limits (some spells take 30 minutes, an hour or more to cast) cannot be cast at all through Spellpool or Steal Spell?

They only fade if you do not cast them. You are considered to be casting the spell as a full-round action during every round of the spell's casting time (RC 125).

B) Does a character who's a Dweomerkeeper in addition to either of these classes can use the Supernatural Spell ability on a stolen spell or a spell called from the Spellpool?

Dweomerkeeper only allows it for spells that you either know or have prepared. You can argue that spellpool spells would count because they occupy a spell slot and are therefore prepared—I don't think it's a super strong argument, but you could make it. Spellthieves, on the other hand, are SOL no matter how you slice it.

Q 118
This has probably been asked many times:

If I have the Improved Trip feat and am wielding a one-handed non-trip weapon (like a Longsword) and a shield, or a two-handed non-trip weapon (like a Greatsword), can I use my legs to trip without provoking an AoO and then follow that up with an attack from my weapon if I successfully drop my opponent prone?

Yes.

[Debatra]

Q 119 Where is it written in what order to apply effects/abilities?

For example, a Bone Rat Swarm (Libris Mortis, page 88) has the ability of all Tiny swarms to take half damage from piercing and slashing weapons. It also has DR 5/Bludgeoning. Would a piercing attack that normally does ten damage deal two damage ((10-5)/2) or zero (10/2-5)?

[Troacctid]

Q 119 Where is it written in what order to apply effects/abilities?

For example, a Bone Rat Swarm (Libris Mortis, page 88) has the ability of all Tiny swarms to take half damage from piercing and slashing weapons. It also has DR 5/Bludgeoning. Would a piercing attack that normally does ten damage deal two damage ((10-5)/2) or zero (10/2-5)?

There is no special rule for order of operations in D&D. The DM decides. As far as RAI, though, Sage Advice has suggested using whichever order is most beneficial.

[Elves]

Q 120
You have an immediate action teleportation ability. You're attacked and want to use the teleportation ability to escape. Can you wait until the attacker has made their attack roll (ie, to see if it hits you) and then teleport away before they roll damage to avoid any damage it would deal?

In other words, how granular is your ability to take immediate actions during another creature's action?

[Thurbane]

Q 119 Where is it written in what order to apply effects/abilities?

For example, a Bone Rat Swarm (Libris Mortis, page 88) has the ability of all Tiny swarms to take half damage from piercing and slashing weapons. It also has DR 5/Bludgeoning. Would a piercing attack that normally does ten damage deal two damage ((10-5)/2) or zero (10/2-5)?

There is no special rule for order of operations in D&D. The DM decides. As far as RAI, though, Sage Advice has suggested using whichever order is most beneficial.

While the RAW status of the FAQ is often contested, it does have a couple of entries which are somewhat relevant to this:

When do “add-on” effects such as poison occur? For example, if an assassin delivers a death attack with a weapon bearing wyvern poison, does the poison take effect first, thus potentially reducing the target’s Fortitude save against the death attack?
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect. In this case, the assassin is the “controller” of both the poison and the death attack, so he’d most likely choose for the poison to take effect first, and then the death attack.

If a monster has resistance and vulnerability to the same kind of damage (such as fire), which effect is applied first? And when does the saving throw come in?
Always roll a saving throw before applying any effects that would increase or reduce the damage dealt. For example, if a frost giant is struck by a fireball that would deal 35 points of damage, it would roll its Reflex save, then apply its vulnerability to fire after determining how much damage the fireball would normally deal. If the save failed, the frost giant would take 52 points of damage: 35 + one-half of 35 (17.5, rounded down to 17). A successful save would mean the frost giant suffered only 25 points of damage: one-half of 35 rounded down (17), plus one-half of 17 rounded down (8).
If the creature has both resistance and vulnerability to the same kind of damage, apply the resistance (which reduces the damage dealt by the effect) before applying the vulnerability(which increases the damage taken by the creature). For example, imagine our frost giant wore a ring of minor fire resistance (granting resistance to fire 10). If the save failed, the frost giant would take 37 points of fire damage: 35 (fireball) –10 (resistance to fire 10) = 25, plus one-half of 25 (12.5, rounded down to 12). If the save succeeded, the frost giant would take only 10 points of damage: 17 (half damage from the fireball, rounded down) – 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 7, plus one-half of 7 (3.5, rounded down to 3).
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first, before applying any effects that would increase damage.

[Troacctid]

Q 120
You have an immediate action teleportation ability. You're attacked and want to use the teleportation ability to escape. Can you wait until the attacker has made their attack roll (ie, to see if it hits you) and then teleport away before they roll damage to avoid any damage it would deal?

In other words, how granular is your ability to take immediate actions during another creature's action?

If you wait long enough for them to make a successful attack roll, you're going to be taking the damage, unless the teleport effect specifically says otherwise. If the attack roll beats your AC, it means they hit you. You have to make the decision before then.

[Doctor Despair]

Q121

I'm having difficulty finding rulestext on this. If an Incorporeal living creature is inside of an object, will it start to suffocate after a time? Or is there some hidden clause I'm missing that waives their need to breath?

Q122

Does the telepathy granted from Fell Conspiracy qualify one to take Mindsight (using it while the ritual is active)?

[Debatra]

A 121 Rules compendium, page 64. "An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It doesn’t need to eat, drink, or breathe, and indeed can’t do these things since it can’t affect physical objects, even air."

[Troacctid]

Q122

Does the telepathy granted from Fell Conspiracy qualify one to take Mindsight (using it while the ritual is active)?

Strictly speaking, no. It doesn't require the ability to communicate telepathically, it requires the telepathy special quality, specifically. Kalashtars and ghostwise halflings need not apply.

[Doctor Despair]

Strictly speaking, no. It doesn't require the ability to communicate telepathically, it requires the telepathy special quality, specifically. Kalashtars and ghostwise halflings need not apply.

Q122.2

Does the Telthor special quality qualify?

Telthor Telepathy (Su): Telthors can communicate with one another telepathically, regardless of language, at a range of 100 feet.