Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[Traab]

If they can find out who did it, if they can find out where those people live, if they can get there in the first place.

Oh, and of course, if they can survive the attack in the first place.



But really, they don't even need to go that far. Do something much more minor like releasing an AI to collapse Earth's internet infrastructure, or a global EMP and knock humanity back a hundred years or so. The chaos would cripple humanity for generations and the Supers would likely be too busy picking up the pieces for to seek revenge.

A global emp would likely knock them on their butts for a couple decades max as every nation on earth enters a dead sprint to rebuild infrastructure before their neighbors so they wont be vulnerable to attack from rival nations before they are able to respond. Thats worst case, best case they have a unified response to an outside threat and it happens even faster because nobody wants to be stuck blind if and when the aliens come back. If anything it would be a brief stall in progress then some seriously fast R&D because they already have alien tech to work with and all the incentive in the universe to work together and reverse engineer and build our own asap. Even Deus would be giving ti everything he has, I dont see him as quite the lex luthor type with his xenophobic hatred of powerful aliens, but I also dont think he will abandon earth and run away if he thinks he can use this to his advantage by heading up some think tanks with all the stuff he has access to.

[Ibrinar]

I think if they can't fight maxima the proper counter to her would be deterrence too, assuming sufficient numbers. If they can insert teams first secure top level government officials all over the world. If they can just teleport in somewhere like demon guy just did (even if someone has to prepare the other side with energy it still should make it much easier after the first infiltrator) or have stealth craft that should be possible.

Then threaten countless cities simultaneously. If a super takes down a ship, destroy a city which should be doable quite fast for a ftl civ. Maxima doesn't seem to have superman or flash level speed she can't be everywhere. You need enough high level super to fight at multiple positions to counter that.

Or someone willing to just fight to the death of everyone else on earth.

[Forum Explorer]

A global emp would likely knock them on their butts for a couple decades max as every nation on earth enters a dead sprint to rebuild infrastructure before their neighbors so they wont be vulnerable to attack from rival nations before they are able to respond. Thats worst case, best case they have a unified response to an outside threat and it happens even faster because nobody wants to be stuck blind if and when the aliens come back. If anything it would be a brief stall in progress then some seriously fast R&D because they already have alien tech to work with and all the incentive in the universe to work together and reverse engineer and build our own asap. Even Deus would be giving ti everything he has, I dont see him as quite the lex luthor type with his xenophobic hatred of powerful aliens, but I also dont think he will abandon earth and run away if he thinks he can use this to his advantage by heading up some think tanks with all the stuff he has access to.

I disagree. I think you are underestimating how devastating losing basically all of our current research and infrastructure would be. Particularly since it would happen at the worst time possible, IE, winter. Now hundreds of millions of people are immediately facing a massive crisis. How are you going to stay warm? How are you going to get water? How long can you make fires to melt ice to drink? How are you going to replace your dwindling food supplies? And how are you going to protect yourself? And without delivery trucks coming in, how long til major cities like New York, Toyko, and London run out of food altogether?

And people can't coordinate their recovery because they can't talk to them. There are no phones. There are no planes. You'd need to send someone on horse with a letter and hope they can actually get where you sent them because there is no GPS either.

Not to mention that in the chaos whoever was in charge might not be in charge anymore. Some places might be able to hold together, and manage to work together in communities. But everyone is faced with this fact: You can do whatever you want, and likely no cops will show up. Maybe never, because hey, no one might check in on that person because all of their friends/family is too far away.

Sure, I like to think the majority of people wouldn't do anything that bad. Maybe some looting, but violence kept to a minimum. You know, until they start to get hungry, and weeks pass without seeing any sort of authority figure. Once it starts to become more a matter of survival, such awful choices start to become a lot more reasonable.


Now, I am assuming that this is basically a super EMP, but it is alien tech, so I feel like that is a fair assumption to make.

[Radar]

Now, I am assuming that this is basically a super EMP, but it is alien tech, so I feel like that is a fair assumption to make.

It does not have to be super - it is well within our capabilities actually as high-altitude nuclear explosions do produce crazy strong EMP that covers very large areas. Aside from detailed simulations, there were a few live test and even a 300 kT payload was enough to fry power lines, set a power plant on fire and do all sorts of other damage in a radius measured in hundreds of kilometers. A full-scale hydrogen bomb could send the whole North America back to XVIII century just like that.

[Traab]

I disagree. I think you are underestimating how devastating losing basically all of our current research and infrastructure would be. Particularly since it would happen at the worst time possible, IE, winter. Now hundreds of millions of people are immediately facing a massive crisis. How are you going to stay warm? How are you going to get water? How long can you make fires to melt ice to drink? How are you going to replace your dwindling food supplies? And how are you going to protect yourself? And without delivery trucks coming in, how long til major cities like New York, Toyko, and London run out of food altogether?

And people can't coordinate their recovery because they can't talk to them. There are no phones. There are no planes. You'd need to send someone on horse with a letter and hope they can actually get where you sent them because there is no GPS either.

Not to mention that in the chaos whoever was in charge might not be in charge anymore. Some places might be able to hold together, and manage to work together in communities. But everyone is faced with this fact: You can do whatever you want, and likely no cops will show up. Maybe never, because hey, no one might check in on that person because all of their friends/family is too far away.

Sure, I like to think the majority of people wouldn't do anything that bad. Maybe some looting, but violence kept to a minimum. You know, until they start to get hungry, and weeks pass without seeing any sort of authority figure. Once it starts to become more a matter of survival, such awful choices start to become a lot more reasonable.


Now, I am assuming that this is basically a super EMP, but it is alien tech, so I feel like that is a fair assumption to make.

I agree that the initial chaos would be extreme, there might even be a large scale loss of life over the first year. But the gap would be closed surprisingly quick. Yes instant communication would be down, but as an example, an emp commission released a study in 2004 where they tested the effects on cars. They found that so long as the engines were off at the time, vintages from 86-02 were fully functional afterwards. So older vehicles and classic cars would find themselves in heavy use as a far higher speed pony express to communicate and travel. The first year would likely be hell, but after that the rebuilding efforts would be ramping up rapidly.

[Forum Explorer]

I agree that the initial chaos would be extreme, there might even be a large scale loss of life over the first year. But the gap would be closed surprisingly quick. Yes instant communication would be down, but as an example, an emp commission released a study in 2004 where they tested the effects on cars. They found that so long as the engines were off at the time, vintages from 86-02 were fully functional afterwards. So older vehicles and classic cars would find themselves in heavy use as a far higher speed pony express to communicate and travel. The first year would likely be hell, but after that the rebuilding efforts would be ramping up rapidly.

Well that's what I mean by super EMP. I know there are protections against EMPs, such as being shielded, old, or you know, not hooked up to anything. I'm assuming this would by-pass that and burn those out anyways. Basically every single battery, and anything that has any sort of electrical wiring is fried. Basically anything invented after 1900 is wrecked.

[Traab]

Well that's what I mean by super EMP. I know there are protections against EMPs, such as being shielded, old, or you know, not hooked up to anything. I'm assuming this would by-pass that and burn those out anyways. Basically every single battery, and anything that has any sort of electrical wiring is fried. Basically anything invented after 1900 is wrecked.

Is that even an emp at that point and not something else entirely? I mean, an emp works along specific guidelines as for what it does. That sounds like a mix of sci fi and dresdens ability to fry anything electronic around him. And even he can still drive his mighty blue beetle. I was willing to accept it frying shielded tech as well just to ensure it has its full impact. But if everything that runs on electricity or wiring or whatever is friend and irreparable then yes, that would be an absurd crippling of the world.

[The Glyphstone]

I think that's called 'Magic', or simply 'Act of God/s'. Basically the premise of the Change novel series, where everything above muscle-powered tech arbitrarily stops working forever.

[Radar]

Well that's what I mean by super EMP. I know there are protections against EMPs, such as being shielded, old, or you know, not hooked up to anything. I'm assuming this would by-pass that and burn those out anyways. Basically every single battery, and anything that has any sort of electrical wiring is fried. Basically anything invented after 1900 is wrecked.

Anything at that power scale would most likely also severely damage all kinds of steel structures maybe even including reinforced concrete as induced voltages are size-dependent. If something is strong enough to fry cell phone circuits, what it will do to some bridge?

[Forum Explorer]

Is that even an emp at that point and not something else entirely? I mean, an emp works along specific guidelines as for what it does. That sounds like a mix of sci fi and dresdens ability to fry anything electronic around him. And even he can still drive his mighty blue beetle. I was willing to accept it frying shielded tech as well just to ensure it has its full impact. But if everything that runs on electricity or wiring or whatever is friend and irreparable then yes, that would be an absurd crippling of the world.

I mean technically. Keep scaling an EMP up, and I believe you start to get metal sparking in pretty much everything metal. Which would do absurd amounts of damage to most engines and the like. I think it might even be possible for that to happen, just naturally, from the sun. Called Superflares, though it is questionable on what exactly the effects would be.

Anything at that power scale would most likely also severely damage all kinds of steel structures maybe even including reinforced concrete as induced voltages are size-dependent. If something is strong enough to fry cell phone circuits, what it will do to some bridge?

Honestly, probably not a lot to most bridges. They are built to take lightning strikes after all. It might kill anyone on the bridge at the time though.

But I'm not an engineer, it might do more.

[Max_Killjoy]

I think that's called 'Magic', or simply 'Act of God/s'. Basically the premise of the Change novel series, where everything above muscle-powered tech arbitrarily stops working forever.

IE, "why let the details of what would actually happen, alter my horror story based on scaremongering I've heard about what would happen".

[Traab]

I mean technically. Keep scaling an EMP up, and I believe you start to get metal sparking in pretty much everything metal. Which would do absurd amounts of damage to most engines and the like. I think it might even be possible for that to happen, just naturally, from the sun. Called Superflares, though it is questionable on what exactly the effects would be.



Honestly, probably not a lot to most bridges. They are built to take lightning strikes after all. It might kill anyone on the bridge at the time though.

But I'm not an engineer, it might do more.

Yeah im pretty sure that anything that could just flat out ruin anything electric no matter what protections it has would also be powerful enough to flat out murder significant numbers of people for a variety of reasons and not just frying pacemakers. Its basically raw lightning striking everything everywhere at the same time. This link Suggests that emps can do significant damage to people. Brain damage. Research suggests we can take the emp part of a nuke without much damage, but you are talking about something way stronger of an emp in order to flatten all of the electronics, shielded, turned off, or not. That said, this is space tech, it may not even be an emp, just something that has similar effects and is more comprehensive in what it breaks so this argument may not even be valid.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah im pretty sure that anything that could just flat out ruin anything electric no matter what protections it has would also be powerful enough to flat out murder significant numbers of people for a variety of reasons and not just frying pacemakers. Its basically raw lightning striking everything everywhere at the same time. This link Suggests that emps can do significant damage to people. Brain damage. Research suggests we can take the emp part of a nuke without much damage, but you are talking about something way stronger of an emp in order to flatten all of the electronics, shielded, turned off, or not. That said, this is space tech, it may not even be an emp, just something that has similar effects and is more comprehensive in what it breaks so this argument may not even be valid.

I mean, it's not like casualties would be unwelcome. The idea is to devastate Earth, but leave it intact enough that people like Maxima are too busy putting everything back together to go hunting for whoever did it.

But I actually like the idea of a hostile super AI better. Controlling and manipulating people by controlling our technology to basically cause maximum devastation and chaos, while sabotaging efforts to actually leave the planet.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd like to think a FTL civilization would have tech above nuclear weapons if they want to induce EMP or similar effects. I also remember a rather dramatic scene in the 8th Star Wars movie when a ship accelerated to FTL - right through another fleet. Unpiloted / suicide missions where a ship goes FTL right into Earth might be devastating.

If you want to Kill All Humans from orbit, that's not so hard. Conquest and occupation is more difficult.

[The Glyphstone]

Killing all humans with some form of orbital bombardment does seem counterproductive to the stated goal of crippling Earth badly enough to compel the local supers to stick around and help repair/rebuild it. Obliterate the entire human species, and all you're left with is an undefined number of surviving individuals who are both highly motivated to return the favor and demonstrably capable of doing so by virtue of them surviving an apocalypse.

[lord_khaine]

A terrorist attack done by total surprise is very different from dealing with an army invasion. Plus, remember that aliens also have a membership on the council alongside demons so its entirely likely they already have backroom dealings with the wider universe and so would not only have things to say about an invasion, but also methods of responding beyond "REALEASE THE SMACKEN!"

I kinda doubt a small shadow council in the ass-end of the galaxy has any meaningful way of influencing things.
They cant even, as far as we are aware, influence the local governments.

I think if they can't fight maxima the proper counter to her would be deterrence too, assuming sufficient numbers. If they can insert teams first secure top level government officials all over the world. If they can just teleport in somewhere like demon guy just did (even if someone has to prepare the other side with energy it still should make it much easier after the first infiltrator) or have stealth craft that should be possible.

But they can fight Maxima if they want to. Max is powerful. But she isnt Superman level powerful.
Dabbler, a freelance adventure, is still cannonically able to fight Max to a draw. As mentioned previously a group of bounty hunters managed to catch her briefly.
So Max clear isnt unbeatable on the ground.

And off the ground.. well Max only be tough enough to endure starship level weapons. Or pack enough of a punch to hurt one.
Not both at the same time. Last time she was lucky a friendly ship shielded her while blasting.
So with enough of a budget you can take her down. Question is mostly if its going to be worth it for a crappy planet.

[Shining Wrath]

So let's imagine that you're the High Muckety-Muck (HMM) of some FTL civilization, trying to decide whether or not to invade Earth.

Pros:
1) Some very powerful individuals, if you can recruit them
2) Presumably natural resources and other economic benefits, similar to an advanced nation colonizing a less advanced one.
3) Perhaps Earth is conveniently located as a port for your fleets
Cons:
4) Some very powerful individuals who are going to try to kill your troops
5) Nations with various levels of ability to fight back, including nukes. Country A can "help" Country B by nuking alien invaders in Country B's territory, and don't think that wouldn't tempt people
6) Given (1)(2) and (3), you may wind up fighting other FTL civilizations who either want Earth, or don't want you to have Earth, or who actually care about the plight of the Earthlings
7) Given (4)(6) and (6), it's likely to cost you money or equivalent resources to take and hold Earth

The HMM is likely to conclude that it's not worth the trouble unless they are absolutely unchallenged in the region of Earth (i.e. we're within someone's "sphere of influence").

I would like to think that somewhere out there is an Nth level technology civilization that mostly ignores the less advanced races but maintains a "don't make us come over there" attitude towards genocide.

[lord_khaine]

2) Presumably natural resources and other economic benefits, similar to an advanced nation colonizing a less advanced one.

Funny enough, the only meaningful resource or benefit you would really get from taking earth as a post-scarity civilisation is the entertainment.
And you could just as easily get that with a internet tap xD

5) Nations with various levels of ability to fight back, including nukes. Country A can "help" Country B by nuking alien invaders in Country B's territory, and don't think that wouldn't tempt people

Kinda doubt this would be much of an issue for the High Muckety Muck (seems someone has been playing Warframe) of the glorious FTL empire.
I mean, if your ready to take over this backwater kinda assumes you control your own planet or more.
At that point i dont think the nukes are an issue.

The supers are the actual wildcard.

The HMM is likely to conclude that it's not worth the trouble unless they are absolutely unchallenged in the region of Earth (i.e. we're within someone's "sphere of influence").

I would like to think that somewhere out there is an Nth level technology civilization that mostly ignores the less advanced races but maintains a "don't make us come over there" attitude towards genocide.

Very likely not worth it.
Or no sadly thats not true. We saw by all accounts that the Alari considered it very much worth it back when they had an empire.

Just also, it seemed like someone or something did indeed not agree with them.

[Max_Killjoy]

The problem with any alien invasion story is the same... why would a power capable of traveling across interstellar space, need to invade and conquer a planet?

Everything you can get from a planet is easier to get from space, or using machines, or whatever.

[Traab]

The problem with any alien invasion story is the same... why would a power capable of traveling across interstellar space, need to invade and conquer a planet?

Everything you can get from a planet is easier to get from space, or using machines, or whatever.

The only way it works is with unobtanium. A mythical unknown super rare element that our planet "just happens" to have in abundance. For standard stuff all over the periodic table, you have quadrillions of empty planets all across the universe that have the exact same minerals and dont involve genociding a tourist trap planet. Because remember, earth is a well known and fairly popular vacation spot for aliens of all species and has been for centuries.

[Mechalich]

The only way it works is with unobtanium. A mythical unknown super rare element that our planet "just happens" to have in abundance. For standard stuff all over the periodic table, you have quadrillions of empty planets all across the universe that have the exact same minerals and dont involve genociding a tourist trap planet. Because remember, earth is a well known and fairly popular vacation spot for aliens of all species and has been for centuries.

Grrlpower is actually on the right track here in that it is the Supers themselves, and the as yet unknown secret of their powers, that qualify as unobtanium. Cora makes this comment after Max obliterates the Fel ship. The supers can do things that the various FTL capable civilizations consider impossible according to their understanding of how physics (including 'magic') works. That makes Earth a rare prize.

[Max_Killjoy]

It makes Earth a boobie prize.

[Shining Wrath]

So if you're HMM (BTW I have never played Warframe) what you want is either the supers themselves, or a "port" (review history of British Empire).
Invasion probably doesn't help with the former.

In either case, you don't know what the supers are capable of, and other FTL civilizations have competing interests in the supers and the "port" access.

Conclusion: moderate to high risk, reward ranges from zero to very high depending on how successful you are at recruiting supers.

[Ibrinar]

For ressources it makes little sense but there are some reasons to attack a backwater planet: To prevent them from growing strong and being a threat. Because you like having exotic slaves. Religious/ideologues reasons.

But yeah mostly it doesn't bring much benefit. If you want the supers I am sure you could get many just by offering them to be rich in a scifi society instead of an modern tech environment. I am sure many would be interested.

[Traab]

For ressources it makes little sense but there are some reasons to attack a backwater planet: To prevent them from growing strong and being a threat. Because you like having exotic slaves. Religious/ideologues reasons.

But yeah mostly it doesn't bring much benefit. If you want the supers I am sure you could get many just by offering them to be rich in a scifi society instead of an modern tech environment. I am sure many would be interested.

The problem would be the quality of those willing to go along. Both in power and in morals. After all, take america for example, archon is clearly offering obscene amounts of money for anyone with super powers who wants to fight or solve crimes, or whatever. Sydney went from part owning a struggling business to making her annual salary biweekly by signing up. Im guessing its an easy 6 figure salary. Any decent people interested in getting rich with their powers would have gone that way mostly leaving criminals or those not interested in such a thing for theoretical alien recruiters to go after. I mean, i suppose it is possible for say, Hiro, to go "Hmm thats a great deal and being 10k light years away means I cant be arrested for violating my contracts. Im in!" But I imagine most of the best are either happy with staying on earth and living in the top 1% lifestyle with fame added on top as well. Or are supervillains and only interested in being recruited till they can take over the inter stellar whatever and rule the galaxy. The sci fi alien society bit is probably the biggest hook they can offer and it wouldnt shock me if some were tempted but in general, yeah, i dont think it would work out too well.

[The Glyphstone]

I think its the intangibles that would make the difference, stuff you simply can't buy on contemporary Earth no matter how much money and fame you have. Stuff like advanced medical care; if that sci-fi tech guarantees you and your family/loved ones will be in perfect health and immune to disease with a max lifespan of 200+ years, thats probably more tempting to many people than the fringe benefits of a celebrity lifestyle.

[Mechalich]

I think its the intangibles that would make the difference, stuff you simply can't buy on contemporary Earth no matter how much money and fame you have. Stuff like advanced medical care; if that sci-fi tech guarantees you and your family/loved ones will be in perfect health and immune to disease with a max lifespan of 200+ years, thats probably more tempting to many people than the fringe benefits of a celebrity lifestyle.

Right, and the comic has already presented a character, Cora, as an example of why life with a high technology level has vast benefits. There are literally millions of people on Earth right now who could benefit immensely from just that prosthetic tech, never mind countless other options a post-FTL civ might be able to share.

The trick, as ever, is to have one society get ahold of the benefits of another, more technologically advanced, society while minimizing the costs to cultural heritage, social cohesion, and overall stability. Our history doesn't exactly have a lot of good examples, and grrlpower's previously example of this kind of thing - Deus taking control of a small African state and reforming it from the ground up - suggests the author is fairly sympathetic to rather invasive forms of intervention.

[Shining Wrath]

Tom, meet Maxima. Yes, you've already met, but evidently you'd forgotten about her.
I can't really tell what Halo is doing in the background - it looks like she's flying and maybe has her shield up? I think shield up might be wise, as Thothogoth might go flying in a random direction any second now.

[Traab]

She is getting out of the blast radius and is enjoying whats happening/about to happen. And you know what? I forgive tom. Remember the whole argument about cultures thats been going on? Its not unexpected for someone whose culture is all about power and subjugation and various related fields might forget in the moment that this super powerful being is very irritated by the idea of a woman being enslaved. Assuming he even knew that in the first place. At least he didnt suggest a burqa. That would have made both max AND dabbler try to crush him.

[Dragonus45]

I'm sure there is some weird cultural explanation for this but... my cringe senses are tingling.