Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[Dragonus45]

Yup. Because all of those things are just well things. They don't require you to be explicitly in a fictional setting to function. That and they have a sort of logic to them. Like why wouldn't HW's power work with heroes? The answer is literally because than she wouldn't be Hench Wench which is retarded.

And then you get into stuff like, what even is a hero anyways? Could she work with vigilantes that refuse to join Archon? How about villains who think they are heroes? How about heroes who just have good PR? How about people who are neither, but commit petty crimes from time to time? Where's the line drawn?

HW doesn't make sense at a glance, and the more you look at her the less sense she makes. The other stuff does fit into the setting, and the characters can (and do) have conversations about how it works.

Actually they all do explicitly need to be in a fictional setting to function the way that they do. Unless you know any drop dead gorgeous super people we would all love to meet and have been holding out on the rest of society.

[Traab]

Yeah, i was honestly fine with hench wench working with contracts, but then saying, "Oh yeah, it also only works with super villain powers" is a bridge too far. I guess this is how dave explains why she wont be recruited by arcswat like jabber was, but he didnt bother to explain why none of the others joined up so why do it for her?

[Forum Explorer]

Actually they all do explicitly need to be in a fictional setting to function the way that they do. Unless you know any drop dead gorgeous super people we would all love to meet and have been holding out on the rest of society.

No, they just can't operate in the universe as we know it.


Some fictional universes are well put together enough that you can actually see that as being a possible permutation of reality. Reading them, you get invested in the false reality of the story and it becomes much more real to you for it. Things like Hench Wench break the suspension of disbelief and make for a worse story. It cheapens the story, makes it little more than words on paper, and we're left waiting for it to go away before we can actually immerse ourselves in the story again.

Basically, Hench Wench's power makes for a worse story.

[Max_Killjoy]

Actually they all do explicitly need to be in a fictional setting to function the way that they do. Unless you know any drop dead gorgeous super people we would all love to meet and have been holding out on the rest of society.

All those other things require a reality that is not ours.

"Only works with supervillains" explicitly requires that the events take place inside a narrative framework, because a bright consistent reliable line between "hero" and "villain" is a narrative contrivance looking in from the outside, not a distinction that is internal to the workings of that not-our-reality.

[Dragonus45]

No, they just can't operate in the universe as we know it.


Some fictional universes are well put together enough that you can actually see that as being a possible permutation of reality. Reading them, you get invested in the false reality of the story and it becomes much more real to you for it. Things like Hench Wench break the suspension of disbelief and make for a worse story. It cheapens the story, makes it little more than words on paper, and we're left waiting for it to go away before we can actually immerse ourselves in the story again.

Basically, Hench Wench's power makes for a worse story.

Some universes aren't like that, and don't pretend to be. Dave gives nods to reality with things like paying attention to the ways that a government might try and legally make a super hero universe or the collateral damage that might come about in a super powered brawl but otherwise aims for a deliberate kitchen sink wild and crazy worldbuilding style. Just because it isn't how you think it should be done doesn't make it bad. Learn the difference between those two things.

All those other things require a reality that is not ours.

"Only works with supervillains" explicitly requires that the events take place inside a narrative framework, because a bright consistent reliable line between "hero" and "villain" is a narrative contrivance looking in from the outside, not a distinction that is internal to the workings of that not-our-reality.

Or, it has to do with her as a person because a lot about her power just makes more sense if you consider her unconscious biases about things like "who she works for" having an effect on the way her powers interact with her employers. Or who knows right, not like anyone in this thread can tell me even the first step of "how powers work" in this setting.

[Forum Explorer]

Some universes aren't like that, and don't pretend to be. Dave gives nods to reality with things like paying attention to the ways that a government might try and legally make a super hero universe or the collateral damage that might come about in a super powered brawl but otherwise aims for a deliberate kitchen sink wild and crazy worldbuilding style. Just because it isn't how you think it should be done doesn't make it bad. Learn the difference between those two things.

Considering the consensus seems to be that Hench Wench's power is stupid and breaks immersion, I'd say that yes, it is a bad thing. Also the story is very much comedic, but never really breaks the fourth wall or inconsistent. It strives for the internal consistency the rest of the time, so again, yes, I'd say something that breaks the suspension of disbelief for it's readers is a bad thing. I'm pretty sure Dave didn't sit down and go 'this is where I break the sense of disbelief in my readers,' when writing this scene.

Also in general, breaking the suspension of disbelief is seen as a negative thing.

So I don't see how this can be construed as anything other than a bad thing.

[Yuki Akuma]

It seems like some of the people in the tier have variable amounts of interest and involvement, and things are always subject to change. Like the guy who refilled things getting his power toned down a bit.

Dave basically just asks for as much detail as you want to give and will take it from there.

[TeChameleon]

All this arguing over Hench Wench's power, and nobody is going to comment on the last panel where Max is about to beat her over the head with her own golem body? It looks both hilarious and awesome, but hopefully Max is able to check her swing in time, or Hench Wench is going to be a very short-lived character

Put me in the camp of 'eh, whatever' as far as her powers work. I think they're funny, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if powers had a certain mental component in this universe, where they work at least somewhat how the wielder expects them to (at least initially). If HW wasn't a lawyer or a legal aide or some such in civilian life, I'd be a bit surprised.

[Shining Wrath]

I suppose Hench Wench has something like an AD&D's "Detect Evil" power innately, and it only allows her to bond with people who ping as evil. Which in turn strongly implies - I'd even say requires - an absolute Lawgiver who can decree with certainty who is Good, and who is Evil. Those sorts of powers are religious or quasi-religious in fantasy settings.

NOTE: I'm not in any way talking about RW concepts of right / wrong / religion. In fantasy worlds, being able to detect Good and Evil implies Someone(s) somewhere (Outer Planes) who can with authority decree "This is an evil creature" and no one can gainsay them. The trick Evil creatures in those settings (hello, Asmodeus) play is arguing that it's all semantics and who's to say Pelor's opinion is worth anything?

[sihnfahl]

All this arguing over Hench Wench's power, and nobody is going to comment on the last panel where Max is about to beat her over the head with her own golem body? It looks both hilarious and awesome, but hopefully Max is able to check her swing in time, or Hench Wench is going to be a very short-lived character

Well, so long as HW has Brut's invulnerability, she can take it.

And since Max is fast enough to catch a bullet in midair, she can check her swing if it's confirmed HW loses her loaned powers.

If she was a legal clerk, she'd be a poor one. LLCs that are formed to further a criminal enterprise are negated. She'd enjoy a short power boost until the LLC is dissolved, and then have to hope she doesn't get caught until another LLC is formed that she can sign up with.

[Keltest]

If were going to argue about HW's power, is it not possible that she was speaking figuratively as a function of her being a villain herself rather than a literal requirement of her employers being villains for her powers to work?

[TeChameleon]

If were going to argue about HW's power, is it not possible that she was speaking figuratively as a function of her being a villain herself rather than a literal requirement of her employers being villains for her powers to work?

It would be possible, but we've got Word of Dave under the current comic saying that her powers only work on villains.

So... yeah.

*shrug*

It's one of those powers that is amusing until you think about it too hard, which I'm trying to avoid doing, because at the end of the day, it's a webcomic.

[lord_khaine]

"Only works with supervillains" explicitly requires that the events take place inside a narrative framework, because a bright consistent reliable line between "hero" and "villain" is a narrative contrivance looking in from the outside, not a distinction that is internal to the workings of that not-our-reality.

Oh yeah that is another excellent way of explaining the issue with HW.

It's one of those powers that is amusing until you think about it too hard, which I'm trying to avoid doing, because at the end of the day, it's a webcomic.

Problem is of course, that HW's power is so jarring it makes it hard to avoid thinking about it.

[Radar]

Problem is of course, that HW's power is so jarring it makes it hard to avoid thinking about it.

Still would not be so bad, if it was some single background appearance. Yet, HW took the center stage for the NY brawl for quite some time.

[Shining Wrath]

When HW is imprisoned, the rules for visiting her include "No pens". So she can't sign any contracts.

[lord_khaine]

Still would not be so bad, if it was some single background appearance. Yet, HW took the center stage for the NY brawl for quite some time.

Yeah she were basically allowed to steal the entire spotlight for that fight.
Had been easier to ignore her had she only shown herself in 1-2 comics then gotten blasted off team rocket style.
Like, had it just been a couple of panels with "this is HW, her power is to assume the power of her employer" then it had likely skipped by.

But then we had all the dumb stuff with LLC's, not being able to be fired without a vote, and now registered difference between heroes and villains.
The last bit is especially annoying. Everyone is a hero in their own mind.

[Dragonus45]

Considering the consensus seems to be that Hench Wench's power is stupid and breaks immersion, I'd say that yes, it is a bad thing. Also the story is very much comedic, but never really breaks the fourth wall or inconsistent. It strives for the internal consistency the rest of the time, so again, yes, I'd say something that breaks the suspension of disbelief for it's readers is a bad thing. I'm pretty sure Dave didn't sit down and go 'this is where I break the sense of disbelief in my readers,' when writing this scene.

Also in general, breaking the suspension of disbelief is seen as a negative thing.

So I don't see how this can be construed as anything other than a bad thing.

Consensus where? Consensus of who? Comments on the strip mostly seem fine with it, comments on other places I hang around mostly seem fine with it, and just because this thread loves to bask in constant needless self perpetuating negativity doesn't mean anyone here is actually right. 5 wrong people are just as wrong as 1 wrong person. You not liking an idea and that idea being bad are not the same thing. Learn the difference.

[lord_khaine]

Consensus where? Consensus of who? Comments on the strip mostly seem fine with it, comments on other places I hang around mostly seem fine with it, and just because this thread loves to bask in constant needless self perpetuating negativity doesn't mean anyone here is actually right.

At the same time, because this thread is just a touch more analytical and critial, does not mean its wrong.

5 wrong people are just as wrong as 1 wrong person. You not liking an idea and that idea being bad are not the same thing. Learn the difference.

A saying comes to mind about a pot and a kettle..

And conversedly. By your own arguments. 1 person can be as wrong as 5 people can.
So by that logic, whats important is not volume, but quality of arguments.

[Max_Killjoy]

Consensus where? Consensus of who? Comments on the strip mostly seem fine with it, comments on other places I hang around mostly seem fine with it, and just because this thread loves to bask in constant needless self perpetuating negativity doesn't mean anyone here is actually right. 5 wrong people are just as wrong as 1 wrong person. You not liking an idea and that idea being bad are not the same thing. Learn the difference.

Sorry, whatever point you were trying to make got lost in the condescension.

[Dragonus45]

At the same time, because this thread is just a touch more analytical and critial, does not mean its wrong.

Well "a touch more analytical and critial" is just a bit of an understatement for describing media discussion threads on this board.

A saying comes to mind about a pot and a kettle..

And conversedly. By your own arguments. 1 person can be as wrong as 5 people can.
So by that logic, whats important is not volume, but quality of arguments.

Of which there is very little, nothing about this power actually stands out compared to all the rest of the insanity that is the setting, but it personally bothers a lot of people on this board so now it's time to say it's bad writing. I still maintain her powers being effected by her mentality in some way would be a perfectly internally consistent answer to the problems bring up, yet none of us actually know squat about the way powers work. Once we do, if we ever do, do feel free to rub it in my face. Until then stop pretending your personal distaste for the way a power works actually equals bad writing.

[Mechalich]

The problem of Hench Wench's powers is, in some sense, a problem of pacing and release schedule.

Hench Wench identified herself in comic #891 (she was in the background a few strips earlier, but that doesn't count). It's currently comic #915. She'll probably cease to matter in any significance with in a handful of strips. Meaning she'll have only been in the comic at all for a stretch of 30 strips total and only have actually appeared personally in something like one third of those.

If you were reading Grrl Power from start to finish, she'd be a blip. The average reader doing that might think her powers were weird or dumb, or just a rather low-quality meta-joke (that's my personal stance), but then they'd move on an it would cease to matter. However, comic #891 came out almost three months ago, which matters for those readers following Grrl Power in real time.

Slow-release serials lend themselves to in-depth analysis and they also mean that elements that don't click wear out their welcome incredibly fast. In many forms of media the creator can simply speed past a weak moment or connection in the plot, but you can't do that when your product releases at a snail's pace. The choice to not only provide Hench Wench with a weird power set, but also to have the comic invite the reader to think about how those powers might work mechanically set up this subplot for failure by inviting in-depth analysis.

[Shining Wrath]

The root problem is that GP is a mish-mash setting. It's mostly soft sci-fi superheroes, with space aliens and alien tech, but then it brings in traditional fantasy elements (vampires, succubus). So far, so good.
Then Hench Wench is a super, with what are supposed to be soft sci-fi powers, but they work more like fantasy powers - contracts (but not with the Devil - yet), and the ability to know who is a villain, and the like.
It's not a show-stopper, but it seems discordant to tone.

[Traab]

Ok, im not sure what just happened here, but I THINK maxima just shanked henchwench with a rebar through her ankle. Which seems like an odd way to end the fight (if it even does) And honestly, henchwench has overstayed her welcome to me. If her setup made more sense I would actually find it amusing that she legalesed her way into being virtually impossible to strip of her powers. But honestly? It feels more like a game of 6 years olds going "I shot you!' "Nu uhhh! Im bullet proof!" "Well then i buried you in cement!' "Nu UHHHH! I am able to turn into a ghost and float free!" Just tear the top of her head off and get it over with max.

[sihnfahl]

Ok, im not sure what just happened here, but I THINK maxima just shanked henchwench with a rebar through her ankle.

Or someplace non-fatal.

Dual purpose. Confirms HW did, indeed, lose her powers (no longer being invulnerable) ... and two, force her to surrender by reminding her that she's now very, VERY vulnerable.

[Shining Wrath]

The commentary below the strip confirms via WoG that Hench Wench is, perhaps, part devil, and that's why her powers can be contract based. And goes on to reinforce many of the points that have been raised here - that her powers do pose narrative problems. But he's having fun with them, so that's OK.

Anyway, I couldn't tell what Maxima did, and thought it was at least possible that she gave HW an atomic wedgie. Can you imagine the wedgies Maxima could give in combat? Shudders.

Hench Wench in the last panel has a tooth missing that was present in panel #4, "villainous laugh". Whatever Maxima did, it seems to have revealed damage taken during the battle????

[HandofShadows]

Or someplace non-fatal.

Dual purpose. Confirms HW did, indeed, lose her powers (no longer being invulnerable) ... and two, force her to surrender by reminding her that she's now very, VERY vulnerable.

Considering Max's strength/power level, HW may still have all her powers, it's just that Max is a class or three above her and can break past her limited invulnerability. She already hurt HW knocking out teeth.

[Keltest]

Is anybody else distracted by the fact that Dave apparently doesnt know how to/wont draw real teeth? Like, teeth are not uniform rectangles all across the mouth.

[Radar]

Is anybody else distracted by the fact that Dave apparently doesnt know how to/wont draw real teeth? Like, teeth are not uniform rectangles all across the mouth.

Considering that smiles are never, ever this big? Those teeth are not standing out to be honest, when you consider the whole face.

[Max_Killjoy]

Is anybody else distracted by the fact that Dave apparently doesnt know how to/wont draw real teeth? Like, teeth are not uniform rectangles all across the mouth.

Didn't notice, I skimmed the comic because frankly I'm just waiting for the HenchWench novella to end.

[Traab]

Is anybody else distracted by the fact that Dave apparently doesnt know how to/wont draw real teeth? Like, teeth are not uniform rectangles all across the mouth.

Meh, teeth squares are a fairly standard shorthand for drawing teeth in most work. You have to really enjoy the detail work to focus in that hard. And panel 4 seems to at least show somewhat different tooth shapes as they meet the gum line, so there is that at least. Also, the chank sound effect seems fairly clear she just broke something off from the ground, the shisk sound effect certainly sounds penetrative, so im sticking with impaling her somewhere on the lower leg. I think maxima just nailed her to the floor. Now if she will stay there is another matter, but im hoping the pain will bring her to her senses enough to realize that her powers arent going to let her win here and she will suffer ever escalating agony if she doesnt just chill the heck out already. Because seriously, its fine that you take glee in having outbrained the bad guy group so they cant take your powers away, but you need to get over the power high before max amputates her everything.