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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    I see that apparently Dave had no idea how he was going to end this, and it did kind of feel like he was making it up as he went along. Hopefully there's payoff later, but I am agreeing that it was a concept that sort of... overstayed its welcome, I feel. I personally wasn't a huge fan of the power logistics itself, but as a short cameo thing, it'd be whatever.
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  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Can anyone parse the motion lines in the 'Ghost spit?' panel? Hench Wench is pretty obviously throwing a right hook, and Concretia's head is knocked that direction, but the motion lines are... I don't even know. They trace a line of motion that would mean she brought her right fist from up high into a weird abortive backhand-turned-into-a-punch? Dave is usually pretty good with the motion lines, but every once in a while he throws in some that make no sense to me.

    EDIT: And the 'Max's Sonic Boom' thing was addressed in the comic/author's notes here.
    Its Hench Wench doing a full body pivot. She elbowed concretia from behind her, then did a full body roundhouse swing or a hook that she performed by swinging herself around to build up extra force. She turned away from the camera to make that punch i think, thus the lines are actually moving AWAY from concretia, not towards her. And yeah, im agreeing with maxima being too small to make a really bad sonic boom unless she is flying at eye level. Guns are loud but the volume drops fairly quickly with distance. I imagine being above the tree line would be enough to not hurt anyone, being about skyscraper high would make her quiet enough to not be a public nuisance. And the fact that she is a government official on an emergency call means she gets all sorts of freedom to do stuff like be loud if needed to save lives. Like fire trucks and ambulances. They are loud and you get out of their way, and nobody really seriously complains about that because they are saving lives when doing that.
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  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    They are loud and you get out of their way, and nobody really seriously complains about that because they are saving lives when doing that.
    Or they don't complain out loud about it, because they'd get socially hammered for it. There are some things you Just Don't Say.

    But I have seen people who aren't paying attention, or too absorbed, do some ... rather fun things. Even with full lights.
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Or they don't complain out loud about it, because they'd get socially hammered for it. There are some things you Just Don't Say.

    But I have seen people who aren't paying attention, or too absorbed, do some ... rather fun things. Even with full lights.
    Oh yeah stuff happens, but you get my point right? If max is breaking the sound barrier in any location for it to cause problems, then there is going to be a VERY GOOD REASON FOR IT. Same for hearing sirens and watching emergency vehicles ignore traffic laws and red lights. They arent doing it for grins and giggles, they are doing it for something very important so no, they wont stop doing it, nor should they as seconds count. So long as she isnt HURTING anyone with her sonic booms, and doing as much as is reasonable to minimize the sound, there is no reason for anyone to listen to complaints, if any.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
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    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Yup. I got the point.

    Mmm. I think Archon has a perfect new hire in Concretia. Able to manipulate things like concrete and asphalt? Perfect for the cleanup crew - repair the holes.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Yup. I got the point.

    Mmm. I think Archon has a perfect new hire in Concretia. Able to manipulate things like concrete and asphalt? Perfect for the cleanup crew - repair the holes.
    Once she gets the hang of being a ghost, being able to travel through walls and the like will also be very handy.
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  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Yup. I got the point.

    Mmm. I think Archon has a perfect new hire in Concretia. Able to manipulate things like concrete and asphalt? Perfect for the cleanup crew - repair the holes.
    That probably depends on a lot of factors like how she can manipulate it and alter its form. if the best she can do is form a pile of concrete in her shape then bloop it into the hole, thats not very useful. If its a high level of manipulation then she probably could be very useful in that capacity. Once the pipes and power lines are fixed and the area is flattened ready for the pour, she can move in and handle it herself.

    And Shining, yeah, useful scout ability. Probably only effected by rare circumstances meaning its a safe scout similar to sydney and her light bee. (So long as she doesnt accidentally teleport)
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
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    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    New page. Resolved in about the way that was expected.

    Honestly, with the benefit of hindsight and the extended explanation from this and the previous page(s), I think I like the concept for Hench Wench's abilities.

    She's a super that's also part devil. Her power, which is to copy other superpowers, works only as long as the side providing her said powers has entered into a binding, mutually-signed contract with her. It's a pretty neat take on the concept, and the universe already has demi-supers whose powers only manifest in the paranatural form (i.e. Pixel). Her power is ridiculously broken, but has a massive and obvious (once you know it's there) flaw in that it relies on human-mediated contracts that can be overruled by a third party.

    A flaw that the heroes in this case would not have been able to exploit, had she not been such a blabbermouth about the nature of her powers. :P
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  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Mirrsen View Post
    A flaw that the heroes in this case would not have been able to exploit, had she not been such a blabbermouth about the nature of her powers. :P
    Which is ... par for the course.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Along the lines of blabbermouths, we have the decades old super-villain tradition of the Expository Rant, where they tell the subdued and about-to-die-horribly superhero all about their evil plans. Which the super hero proceeds to foil, first by not dying horribly and then proceeding from there. Hench Wench made the mistake of ranting to a not-subdued audience. Amateurish, but she'll learn.

    I know we aren't supposed to discuss real-world politics, but I think we can discuss real-world law when it comes up - and Arianna's ability to suspend a contract raises all sorts of dual sovereignty questions. I don't think things would work that way. I'm also pretty sure that stamping "Suspended" on a paper copy of a contract is not all that would be required. But ... artistic license.

    Allowing for the humorous ending to a somewhat silly character arc - she's got some courage. If Concretia was glaring at me I'd be rather nervous. If Maxima was glaring at me I'd probably pass out.

    And yes, I think lawyers probably do really enjoy putting uppity paralegals in their place. One of the perks of the profession.

    EDIT:

    Had Concretia done the ka-golem bit while being choked, I think it would have nullified astral Hench Wench's ability to choke her - try choking a statue sometime, see how that works for you. Go golem, step out of the chokehold, separate from golem, resume fighting.
    Last edited by Shining Wrath; 2021-02-15 at 09:02 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I know we aren't supposed to discuss real-world politics, but I think we can discuss real-world law when it comes up - and Arianna's ability to suspend a contract raises all sorts of dual sovereignty questions. I don't think things would work that way. I'm also pretty sure that stamping "Suspended" on a paper copy of a contract is not all that would be required. But ... artistic license.
    Mmm... it all comes down to which State the LLC was incorporated in, and the relevant laws regarding how they're dissolved / put into abeyance.

    Archon probably has legal agreements in each State that grants them certain emergency powers, JIC supervillains try a particular legal cover for illegal acts.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Mmm... it all comes down to which State the LLC was incorporated in, and the relevant laws regarding how they're dissolved / put into abeyance.

    Archon probably has legal agreements in each State that grants them certain emergency powers, JIC supervillains try a particular legal cover for illegal acts.
    I suppose that if Archon had negotiated with the states independently it works. That could lead to a situation where one state held out and gained the benefits of Evil, Inc. firms signing their contracts there.
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  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I suppose that if Archon had negotiated with the states independently it works. That could lead to a situation where one state held out and gained the benefits of Evil, Inc. firms signing their contracts there.
    Which is a RL thing, actually. Two thirds of all US publicly traded companies are incorporated in Delaware because of its business-friendly laws.

    However, it would undoubtedly run afoul of Federal law. Incorporating a business for criminal intent would count.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Along the lines of blabbermouths, we have the decades old super-villain tradition of the Expository Rant, where they tell the subdued and about-to-die-horribly superhero all about their evil plans. Which the super hero proceeds to foil, first by not dying horribly and then proceeding from there. Hench Wench made the mistake of ranting to a not-subdued audience. Amateurish, but she'll learn.

    I know we aren't supposed to discuss real-world politics, but I think we can discuss real-world law when it comes up - and Arianna's ability to suspend a contract raises all sorts of dual sovereignty questions. I don't think things would work that way. I'm also pretty sure that stamping "Suspended" on a paper copy of a contract is not all that would be required. But ... artistic license.

    Allowing for the humorous ending to a somewhat silly character arc - she's got some courage. If Concretia was glaring at me I'd be rather nervous. If Maxima was glaring at me I'd probably pass out.

    And yes, I think lawyers probably do really enjoy putting uppity paralegals in their place. One of the perks of the profession.

    EDIT:

    Had Concretia done the ka-golem bit while being choked, I think it would have nullified astral Hench Wench's ability to choke her - try choking a statue sometime, see how that works for you. Go golem, step out of the chokehold, separate from golem, resume fighting.
    This wasnt the expository rant of the supervillain though, this was the power mad bragging as they celebrate the brilliance of their scheme. Like when skeletor in the master of the universe movie turned golden. Dude was on a massive power high more than on a "Now that I have you trapped, let me tell you the details of my plan" Or if you prefer a less niche movie, jafar when aladdin tricked him into becoming a genie. And ends much the same way. LOOPHOLE!!!!!!
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  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    This wasnt the expository rant of the supervillain though, this was the power mad bragging as they celebrate the brilliance of their scheme. Like when skeletor in the master of the universe movie turned golden. Dude was on a massive power high more than on a "Now that I have you trapped, let me tell you the details of my plan" Or if you prefer a less niche movie, jafar when aladdin tricked him into becoming a genie. And ends much the same way. LOOPHOLE!!!!!!
    This seems less like a loophole and more like an obvious consequence of trying to use legal entities as a vehicle for illegal activities.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Which is a RL thing, actually. Two thirds of all US publicly traded companies are incorporated in Delaware because of its business-friendly laws.

    However, it would undoubtedly run afoul of Federal law. Incorporating a business for criminal intent would count.
    I think there's a lot of banks incorporated in South? Dakota because of bank-friendly laws. I remember calling to get a pin for my corporate card and the gal sounded like something out of "Prairie Home Companion" - "Ja, Ja, it is cold here".

    Anyway, the problem with having your powers dependent upon a contract is the question of who enforces that contract and determines the legality thereof. It seems that Arianna is effectively a judge, at least for contracts involving super-villains.

    Look for a smarter, richer villain - a Deus, say - to try to blackmail / bribe / threaten Arianna. Well, probably not threaten, considering who her friends are.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    This seems less like a loophole and more like an obvious consequence of trying to use legal entities as a vehicle for illegal activities.
    It seems strange that the contract is even valid at the start as im pretty sure you cant be contractually bound to illegal activities, and a group of criminals hiring a fellow criminal to do illegal things is probably not itself a legal action. So at the very least it should be easy for arianna to get a judge to rule the contract is suspended until a full trial can happen, at most it should have just NOT WORKED IN THE FIRST PLACE if it applies to american law automatically. So thats another entry in the odd way her powers work. Is it anything goes until a lawyer points out all the ways its illegal and gets a judge to suspend it? Or is the law automatically applied to any document meaning she CANT use a contract that violates the law in some way? Maybe its a matter of belief? She THINKS she has a rock solid contract so she gets the powers, but when ariana pulls legal jujitsu on her the powers vanish? Would her powers have dropped out even without the phone call had arianna stamped them before calling? SO. MANY. QUESTIONS!!!! Too bad we probably wont learn any of the answers because now the patreon character is done and likely wont be seen again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    It seems strange that the contract is even valid at the start as im pretty sure you cant be contractually bound to illegal activities, and a group of criminals hiring a fellow criminal to do illegal things is probably not itself a legal action. So at the very least it should be easy for arianna to get a judge to rule the contract is suspended until a full trial can happen, at most it should have just NOT WORKED IN THE FIRST PLACE if it applies to american law automatically. So thats another entry in the odd way her powers work. Is it anything goes until a lawyer points out all the ways its illegal and gets a judge to suspend it? Or is the law automatically applied to any document meaning she CANT use a contract that violates the law in some way? Maybe its a matter of belief? She THINKS she has a rock solid contract so she gets the powers, but when ariana pulls legal jujitsu on her the powers vanish? Would her powers have dropped out even without the phone call had arianna stamped them before calling? SO. MANY. QUESTIONS!!!! Too bad we probably wont learn any of the answers because now the patreon character is done and likely wont be seen again.
    If she is indeed a small part devil, as the author text speculated/implied, then the only thing that matters is the wording of the contract and the mutual signatures, the physical paper that is signed as a formal agreement. Since she's not an actual devil, the contract itself is not maintained by some supernatural power, and can be made void by anyone with authority to do so, per the contract's own rules, a fact HW has exploited by making herself the LLC's manager, thus leaving her the only one in the LLC with the power to alter the contract. But since the contract in this case is for a registered LLC in the normal legal system, anyone with the power to suspend an LLC has such authority. Once the contract is void - say, by means of a big red stamp across it - Hench Wench loses the powers that come from it.

    That's how I would explain it, at least.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    It seems strange that the contract is even valid at the start...
    In author fiat, it is.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Eh, it's old-school magic running up against new-school supers. Getting some weird edge-cases like Hench Wench feels... not plausible, exactly, but it doesn't break verisimilitude, at least for me. Theoretically, at least, she's using human contractual formalities to boost her inherent devil magic, which ties into her superpowers. By doing that, she is magically bound by the rules of contract law. So using contract law to undo her powers works- Arianna might also have been able to remove her powers by pointing out what several people already have, that a legal agreement for the purposes of illegal activities isn't exactly binding.

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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Eh, it's old-school magic running up against new-school supers. Getting some weird edge-cases like Hench Wench feels... not plausible, exactly, but it doesn't break verisimilitude, at least for me. Theoretically, at least, she's using human contractual formalities to boost her inherent devil magic, which ties into her superpowers. By doing that, she is magically bound by the rules of contract law. So using contract law to undo her powers works- Arianna might also have been able to remove her powers by pointing out what several people already have, that a legal agreement for the purposes of illegal activities isn't exactly binding.
    Basically, it works the same as the final showdown in Flight of Dragons I guess.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Per WoDave she's part devil and that's how she can derive power from a contract. Since this setting already has vampires, werewolves, and a part-demon part-alien major character, adding devils is not a very big stretch.

    So the question becomes "How would devilish powers work in 21st Century America" and the answer seems to be "A contract is valid until it isn't". In the real world, a landlord can put a clause into a contract making the tenant responsible for normal wear and tear. That's not legal, but that doesn't mean you don't have to pay your rent on time. So HW derives power from a contract until someone with the authority to do so rules it invalid. It would be interesting if Arianna had, e.g., only canceled clauses 2, 7, and 18 (i.e., part but not all of the contract). What happens to her powers? Do they diminish by 1/6?
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Per WoDave she's part devil and that's how she can derive power from a contract. Since this setting already has vampires, werewolves, and a part-demon part-alien major character, adding devils is not a very big stretch.

    So the question becomes "How would devilish powers work in 21st Century America" and the answer seems to be "A contract is valid until it isn't". In the real world, a landlord can put a clause into a contract making the tenant responsible for normal wear and tear. That's not legal, but that doesn't mean you don't have to pay your rent on time. So HW derives power from a contract until someone with the authority to do so rules it invalid. It would be interesting if Arianna had, e.g., only canceled clauses 2, 7, and 18 (i.e., part but not all of the contract). What happens to her powers? Do they diminish by 1/6?
    I would imagine she keeps the powers in full unless those clauses are included. If all she loses are some of the protections against losing them, like say, the one where she is basically the only one allowed to dissolve it, then she still has the powers till whoever now has the authority says otherwise. Also, dabbler confirmed devils were a thing back when trying to explain to teenage succubus that they arent born evil and damned to be monsters. So at least that was already established lore, even if it could have been assumed to be true as far back as learning what dabbler was. I mean, she is a succubus, so its hardly a stretch to assume that devils also exist even without her explicit confirmation before all this happened.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I would imagine she keeps the powers in full unless those clauses are included. If all she loses are some of the protections against losing them, like say, the one where she is basically the only one allowed to dissolve it, then she still has the powers till whoever now has the authority says otherwise. Also, dabbler confirmed devils were a thing back when trying to explain to teenage succubus that they arent born evil and damned to be monsters. So at least that was already established lore, even if it could have been assumed to be true as far back as learning what dabbler was. I mean, she is a succubus, so its hardly a stretch to assume that devils also exist even without her explicit confirmation before all this happened.
    Demons and Devils being that distinct is mostly a D&D affectation, i believe. So while it might not be a stretch for these forums for obvious reasons, for a general audience i dont know that they would make that assumption.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I would imagine she keeps the powers in full unless those clauses are included. If all she loses are some of the protections against losing them, like say, the one where she is basically the only one allowed to dissolve it, then she still has the powers till whoever now has the authority says otherwise. Also, dabbler confirmed devils were a thing back when trying to explain to teenage succubus that they arent born evil and damned to be monsters. So at least that was already established lore, even if it could have been assumed to be true as far back as learning what dabbler was. I mean, she is a succubus, so its hardly a stretch to assume that devils also exist even without her explicit confirmation before all this happened.
    It might be amusing - "this clause with Concretia is invalid because she was under duress, so you can no longer play with stone / become astral".
    In some folklore there's one Devil, singular, who is the boss of the demons, plural. But like I said, having Dabbler and the Council makes having devils, plural, not a big reach for the setting.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    I think Dabbler already mentioned demons and devils as distinct types of being, back when they fought that demon hunter who was trying to kill/capture the teenager at the night club.
    Something like devils more destructive, and demons more 'corruptive' (at least to some views of morality that would consider Dabbler a corruptive influence.)

    Too busy to archive-delve for it at the moment, so I admit I might be mistaken.

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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Demons and Devils being that distinct is mostly a D&D affectation, i believe. So while it might not be a stretch for these forums for obvious reasons, for a general audience i dont know that they would make that assumption.
    Maybe, but then we meet the twilight council and it seems fairly clear that just about EVERYTHING exists on the supernatural side so even if devils arent specifically named you shouldnt be surprised that they do. I mean, would you consider it to not be foreshadowed if we found a chupacabra in the next arc? Yeah they never got specifically named, but with so many other mythical beings being displayed as real, and nothing saying that one doesnt, best to just assume they all do unless otherwise stated. And devils and demons being distinct groups may be a D&D thing, but in that case, wouldnt this being a D&D forum have made it LESS likely to assume devils were real just because demons are? We "know" they are different, but someone with no knowledge of D&D might just lump them all together, if they even bother considering the question in the first place, and would likely shrug if a devil turned up because with dabbler they know these infernal creatures are real.

    Ugh, now im getting confused. As my personal outlook, ever since we first learned dabbler was at least part succubus, that told me the supernatural was real. So I was already primed to accept anything supernatural and the twilight council wasnt a big shock to me. Then when she explicitly confirmed the existence of devils as something other than demons, well, there you go, having a part devil villain isnt a violation of established world building.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Demons and Devils being that distinct is mostly a D&D affectation, i believe. So while it might not be a stretch for these forums for obvious reasons, for a general audience i dont know that they would make that assumption.
    Devils and demons are explicitly different things in this setting.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I think Dabbler already mentioned demons and devils as distinct types of being, back when they fought that demon hunter who was trying to kill/capture the teenager at the night club.
    Something like devils more destructive, and demons more 'corruptive' (at least to some views of morality that would consider Dabbler a corruptive influence.)
    Other way around.
    Devils are more likely to take the time to subvert and corrupt while demons tend to a more directly aggressive and destructive approach.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Other way around.
    Devils are more likely to take the time to subvert and corrupt while demons tend to a more directly aggressive and destructive approach.
    In D&D, but maybe not in GPverse.
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