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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Mirrsen View Post
    Closest probable analogy I can come up with, is CheatEngine. Every cell in his body, individually, is constantly reset to an original state that was set when his powers activated. Things like food and contaminants remain on/in his body and provide constant "sensory pressure". The infinitesimal delay between resets allows him to feel things, but the effects can't accumulate or cause lasting pain or discomfort. He lives constantly in the 'now'. Even if a significantly powerful attack were to destroy some part of him inbetween "ticks", the reset would just restore the damage. The only problem in this explanation is that his memory still functions, but it's probably a general side-effect of powers that "required secondary powers" like remaining in control of your body when logic says you shouldn't, are taken for granted.
    It would also not explain how he is apparently incapable of feeling pain. It's one thing to be able to take a sword to the eye or a railgun to the stomach and completely another to be so chill about it as Achilles is.

    On a side note, Achilles can thank himself that he was well groomed when his powers kicked in. He might be stuck with an outdated hairdo but at least it is a legitimate hairdo and not an "I really need to get my hair cut" outlook. Or, you know, having to deal with a shaggy beard for the rest of your life would be pretty annoying. That being said, all the supers seem to have no hair away from the top of the head anyway. I wonder if it was also like that before they got the powers, or did it change after their awakening (or however you call that).
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Hey, look. Two cameos from the Iron Giant. I think that's more than any other character's had.
    The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    The Iron Giant aka the best film depiction of Superman to date (center), that giant dude with the power stone from Marvel (he cameos briefly in Guardians of the Galaxy) (left), and one of the very originally named Giant Warriors from Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (right).

    Not gonna lie, that's a pretty sweet set of cameos.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-11-20 at 04:21 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    It would also not explain how he is apparently incapable of feeling pain. It's one thing to be able to take a sword to the eye or a railgun to the stomach and completely another to be so chill about it as Achilles is.
    Well at the same time. Why should he feel pain? We feel pain as a warning sign that something is nearing the treshhold where it would damage us.
    If nothing gets near that point then he would not feel pain.

    Else. Since he is at least 50, and seems to be partially stuck in the 80's, then it does not seem unlikely he got involved in some sort of temporal stasis event.

    Also that you likely need to a reality warper before you have a chance to affect him deeper than by insulting Stairway to Heaven or his hair.
    But of course its just guesswork. Since we dont know anything for certain.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Well at the same time. Why should he feel pain? We feel pain as a warning sign that something is nearing the treshhold where it would damage us.
    If nothing gets near that point then he would not feel pain.
    Because the pain receptors do not work on the damage estimation. They measure temperature, mechanical stress or some chemicals. If his powers worked as instant regeneration, he would still feel pain as the pressure temperature or other harming agent did affect him.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Well but we know his power isnt instant regeneration.
    Since he could still be starved/poisoned/chocked then. And stuff would cut him.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Well but we know his power isnt instant regeneration.
    Since he could still be starved/poisoned/chocked then. And stuff would cut him.
    Yes, but I my reply concerning pain was directed at Sean Mirrsen whose idea is basically perpetual instant regeneration.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    My idea is not regeneration, rather a continuous state reset. Poison, even while it stays in his system, can't destroy or alter his cells. His tissues don't deplete of energy and resources because they are constantly replenished, so he can't be starved, dehydrated, or asphyxiated. Viruses can't use his cells to replicate, and bacteria are routinely subsumed by an indestructible immune system.

    And when I say instant, I mean instant. A bullet or blade striking him will fail to penetrate, because cells will fail to take damage or separate. They will deform, with enough applied constant force, but only to the limits of their integrity. Which is why he's not an immovable object, just an indestructible one.

    As I said, basically CheatEngine. Everything but the physical position/velocity of his body's cells is continuously reset, so he can move and act and things, but can't be damaged or altered. Plus whatever secondary effect that allows his brain to function and retain memories and whatnot.

    For a theoretical weakness, you could probably dislocate some of his joints if you applied enough force continuously. The tissue elasticity allows it to happen without damage, more or less, so it could be done. It wouldn't hurt him as such, but it could further reduce his offensive ability until he puts himself back into shape.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Mirrsen View Post
    My idea is not regeneration, rather a continuous state reset. Poison, even while it stays in his system, can't destroy or alter his cells. His tissues don't deplete of energy and resources because they are constantly replenished, so he can't be starved, dehydrated, or asphyxiated. Viruses can't use his cells to replicate, and bacteria are routinely subsumed by an indestructible immune system.

    And when I say instant, I mean instant. A bullet or blade striking him will fail to penetrate, because cells will fail to take damage or separate. They will deform, with enough applied constant force, but only to the limits of their integrity. Which is why he's not an immovable object, just an indestructible one.

    As I said, basically CheatEngine. Everything but the physical position/velocity of his body's cells is continuously reset, so he can move and act and things, but can't be damaged or altered. Plus whatever secondary effect that allows his brain to function and retain memories and whatnot.

    For a theoretical weakness, you could probably dislocate some of his joints if you applied enough force continuously. The tissue elasticity allows it to happen without damage, more or less, so it could be done. It wouldn't hurt him as such, but it could further reduce his offensive ability until he puts himself back into shape.
    Oh, so I misunderstood you before. Sorry about that.

    That last paragraph inevitably reminds me of this scene. Such a great movie series.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    It would probably be easier to just drop another building on him. Or heck, just park a truck on his chest. Thats his biggest weakness, he isnt very strong. Stronger than the average human male of his shape and condition would be, but only because he cant strain his muscles trying to lift things so his limit is a little higher. So yeah, pin him with a vehicle and go about your business without him being able to interfere. Or, just cuff him. Again, not super strong. Of all the supers in archon he is probably the simplest to deal with. He isnt super fast, he isnt super strong, he has no more mobility than any bog standard human. The problem is so many fight him and try to beat him up when the simple solution is to pin him in place.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    It would probably be easier to just drop another building on him. Or heck, just park a truck on his chest. Thats his biggest weakness, he isnt very strong. Stronger than the average human male of his shape and condition would be, but only because he cant strain his muscles trying to lift things so his limit is a little higher. So yeah, pin him with a vehicle and go about your business without him being able to interfere. Or, just cuff him. Again, not super strong. Of all the supers in archon he is probably the simplest to deal with. He isnt super fast, he isnt super strong, he has no more mobility than any bog standard human. The problem is so many fight him and try to beat him up when the simple solution is to pin him in place.
    Exactly this. Another option is to throw him far enough that he will not be able to come back anytime soon.

    The thing is, in the fights he was in, people did not know his powers or just how thorough they are. The antagonist went understandably with standard method of going for the maim/kill option and were taken by surprise when it simply did not work. And that sword to the eye stunt back in the super brawl instigated by Kevin? Nasty psychological move. A trained fighter will not expect anyone to go straight onto an incoming attack and it can throw them off their game for that crucial moment.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    So Hench Wench is a real problem getting more problematic by the second. She's quite likely to hurt civilians with her "throw massive columns of stone" maneuver and what have you.

    And Maxima is busy keeping Brut immobilized. I like the laser targeting beam reminding Brut of what he's got at risk here.

    So ... either Halo has to come up with something based off her knowledge of comic supers, or (more likely IMNHO) Dabbler shows up and proves that HW is not immune to the power of lust - or, failing that, magic.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    So Hench Wench is a real problem getting more problematic by the second. She's quite likely to hurt civilians with her "throw massive columns of stone" maneuver and what have you.

    And Maxima is busy keeping Brut immobilized. I like the laser targeting beam reminding Brut of what he's got at risk here.

    So ... either Halo has to come up with something based off her knowledge of comic supers, or (more likely IMNHO) Dabbler shows up and proves that HW is not immune to the power of lust - or, failing that, magic.
    This is going to turn into another one of those 'why does Maxima even get super-speed if she's never allowed to do anything with it' scenes, I think. She could zip up, smack HenchWench, and be back in place to remind Brut why he's surrendering before he can finish blinking. (And since it seems like a pretty safe assumption that HW is getting her strength/toughness from Brut, she should also have a pretty good idea of how much force is correct to try to disable or stun HW without punching her head off.) She's not actually 'busy' or pinned down by being engaged with Brut at all - at best this is another "I'm pretty sure my team can handle this and I want to see how they do it" case. The moment Maxima decides that's not true, she still has the capability to end the situation very rapidly.. even if it is, as she said in the Vehemence fight, "in an extremely Arianna-unfriendly manner."

    (Incidentally I think Maxima in general is just really out of place with the style of stories Dave wants to write. She's supposedly ready and able to kill, and she keeps running into opponents that she would be absolutely justified in using lethal force on because they're basically all huge irresponsible collateral damage risks and threats to civilian lives and/or the less durable members of her own team.. but Dave appears to want goofy superheroes and villains spouting one-liners about their powers, so she's not actually allowed to do anything but stand around and sometimes swat somebody who is almost as invincible as she is, or explode an alien battleship that doesn't have anybody on board with a name, face, and personality - just a bunch of xenocidal killbots.)

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    (Incidentally I think Maxima in general is just really out of place with the style of stories Dave wants to write. She's supposedly ready and able to kill, and she keeps running into opponents that she would be absolutely justified in using lethal force on because they're basically all huge irresponsible collateral damage risks and threats to civilian lives and/or the less durable members of her own team.. but Dave appears to want goofy superheroes and villains spouting one-liners about their powers, so she's not actually allowed to do anything but stand around and sometimes swat somebody who is almost as invincible as she is, or explode an alien battleship that doesn't have anybody on board with a name, face, and personality - just a bunch of xenocidal killbots.)
    It's not really Maxima specifically, it's just the classic problem that characters of vastly different power tiers don't play well together. The typical comic book solution is to provide opponents of multiple power tiers and have everyone, for no logical reason whatsoever, square off against their opponent of an appropriate tier. Dave specifically called this out back in the first big super brawl when Maxima ordered the crew to change to opponents appropriate to their skill set and further emphasized it when criticizing Math and Dabbler for wasting time fighting Jabberwocky and Heavenly Sword respectively during the debriefing. This leaves a rather significant power tier problem in place.

    The aspect specific to Maxima is that she's the team leader and has an established role in the character drama to this point, meaning she's got a lot to do outside of combat so she can't simply be sent off into space to crush the Fel Empire for a few months or something without leaving a gaping hole in character dynamic.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    This is going to turn into another one of those 'why does Maxima even get super-speed if she's never allowed to do anything with it' scenes, I think. She could zip up, smack HenchWench, and be back in place to remind Brut why he's surrendering before he can finish blinking. (And since it seems like a pretty safe assumption that HW is getting her strength/toughness from Brut, she should also have a pretty good idea of how much force is correct to try to disable or stun HW without punching her head off.) She's not actually 'busy' or pinned down by being engaged with Brut at all - at best this is another "I'm pretty sure my team can handle this and I want to see how they do it" case. The moment Maxima decides that's not true, she still has the capability to end the situation very rapidly.. even if it is, as she said in the Vehemence fight, "in an extremely Arianna-unfriendly manner."
    Max isnt -that- fast when not drawing on her other attributes. She might be able to. But she does not know how much smacking HencWench need to go down. And right now she has the enemy leader captive.
    And he might still be there when she comes back. But he also might have a power she isnt aware off. Currently HenchWench is just breaking things, so i think its understandable if Max waits and see if her party can handle it.

    (Incidentally I think Maxima in general is just really out of place with the style of stories Dave wants to write. She's supposedly ready and able to kill, and she keeps running into opponents that she would be absolutely justified in using lethal force on because they're basically all huge irresponsible collateral damage risks and threats to civilian lives and/or the less durable members of her own team.. but Dave appears to want goofy superheroes and villains spouting one-liners about their powers, so she's not actually allowed to do anything but stand around and sometimes swat somebody who is almost as invincible as she is, or explode an alien battleship that doesn't have anybody on board with a name, face, and personality - just a bunch of xenocidal killbots.)
    I just think Max is misplaced with her power level. As such there isnt that many situations where she would be justified in using leathal force, mostly because she has the power to end the situation just by breaking a few bones.
    That is by the way her prefered outcome. Just because she is ready to kill does not mean she wants to kill. That would have made her a monster. And quite unfit for leadership.
    As such the flip side of supers doing massive collateral damage, is that supers can be used to repair said damage a lot easier.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    It's not really Maxima specifically, it's just the classic problem that characters of vastly different power tiers don't play well together. The typical comic book solution is to provide opponents of multiple power tiers and have everyone, for no logical reason whatsoever, square off against their opponent of an appropriate tier. Dave specifically called this out back in the first big super brawl when Maxima ordered the crew to change to opponents appropriate to their skill set and further emphasized it when criticizing Math and Dabbler for wasting time fighting Jabberwocky and Heavenly Sword respectively during the debriefing. This leaves a rather significant power tier problem in place.

    The aspect specific to Maxima is that she's the team leader and has an established role in the character drama to this point, meaning she's got a lot to do outside of combat so she can't simply be sent off into space to crush the Fel Empire for a few months or something without leaving a gaping hole in character dynamic.
    Generally speaking, when there is a team of heroes, they are of close enough power levels to each other that they can fight the same bad guys. Batman on the justice league being a bit of an outlier but he still manages to contribute against the high end threats. The current setup of arcswat is like if Superman headed up the Defenders and joined them on missions. It just kind of makes things awkward. As for the math/dabbler thing, it was less about power tiers and more they were drawing their fights out for personal enjoyment because math was happy to be facing a martial artist, and dabbler was in the mood to sword fight. Both were fully capable of putting down their opponent relatively quickly if they took the fight seriously, but they werent. So they got scolded for it afterwards.

    I think the real problem here is that maxima is combining two roles. The nuclear option for the really bad fights, and the team leader. By acting as team leader she is right there, on the spot, NOT ending the fights as fast as she is capable of. Again, its like having superman float there watching daredevil fight a swarm of Hand ninjas when he could take a picosecond and incapacitate the entire crowd, but instead he is calling out advice and tactics so daredevil can eventually win the fight. Long term its a good idea, looking at it rationally, because it means the team will be more experienced and better trained to handle their own fights in the future without relying on maximus explodicus to save the day in every fight. But during the fights themselves it just feels odd that she could end it, but doesnt.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    I think the preferred military solution is to end fights as quickly as possible (consistent with laws and strategy) because (1) sometimes outclassed opponents get lucky and hurt your side and (2) you don't always have 100% accurate intelligence about what reinforcements might be on the way. In this battle, there's also (3) collateral damage to civilians and property.

    E.G., Napoleon sent the Middle Guard against Wellington's center because he realized Blucher's Prussians were arriving on his right flank. It was a "win now or lose soon" situation. Maxima does NOT know whether or not other baddies are about to arrive. For all she knows a Vehemence-level threat is about to drop in.

    So ... a "real" Maxima would end fights as quickly as possible, which is pretty damn quick. But that's not much fun and doesn't let the others shine.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Yes. And when the Fell battleship arrived Max nuked it out of orbit because it was a win now or lose a town situation.
    This meanwhile is a chaotic braw, and a excellent chance for her subordinates to gain some experience under controlled circumstances.
    Experience they might need for when they another time are operating without a safety net.

    So no. This is absolutely something "real" Max might do.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Yes. And when the Fell battleship arrived Max nuked it out of orbit because it was a win now or lose a town situation.
    This meanwhile is a chaotic braw, and a excellent chance for her subordinates to gain some experience under controlled circumstances.
    Experience they might need for when they another time are operating without a safety net.

    So no. This is absolutely something "real" Max might do.
    No. You do not treat an actual combat situation, no matter how 'under control' it might appear, as training. You do not ever do that. The very idea of doing that is criminal negligence. If Maxima is willfully exposing her subordinates to unnecessary enemy action she could be court martialed and prosecuted for doing so.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    If we are talking about realism yeah I have to agree treating a super brawl, especially one with unknown powers involved, as training exercise would be gross negligence. The damage to civilian infrastructure aside powers can be basically anything. If Hench Woman pierces someones heart with a light speed beam attack or simply fires a big aoe without an obvious build up there is nothing Maxima with all her superspeed could do. Only by story conventions can you be relatively sure that no irreversible damage will happen suddenly

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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Brut and HW were, in fact, unexpected escalation of the combat, which was originally Garamm and his boss who foolishly thought a mere stasis ray could stop Maxima. There's no guarantee there won't be another escalation of the combat. If NewEnemies:Brut+HW::Brut+HW:OriginalEnemies Team ARCSwat would be in for a hard time. We know there are powerful entities out there.

    What makes for a good story is sometimes in tension with RW military practice. It's OK. We're not reading this as training for our future careers as troops. At least I hope not; I'm a little old for boot camp. A real Maxima might well knock Brut unconscious and then break a few important bones on Hench Wench. Or, given the threat to civilians, kill them both. In addition, what are Halo and Dabbler doing right now? Again, in the RW military standing by and watching your compatriots fight is frowned upon. The last we saw Dabbler she was telling Halo not to worry about Maxima, and sending Halo to hide an alien gadget. And using lube as a weapon. It's about time for the gal with 4 arms to lend a hand.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    No. You do not treat an actual combat situation, no matter how 'under control' it might appear, as training. You do not ever do that. The very idea of doing that is criminal negligence. If Maxima is willfully exposing her subordinates to unnecessary enemy action she could be court martialed and prosecuted for doing so.
    Except no, you -do- in fact do that. At some point you have to field your green recruits.
    You can then, as you seem to favor, send them directly into the roughest grinder available and lose ˝ of them.
    OR, you can ease them into things with light tasks of increasing difficulty, and veterans on standby to bail them out.

    If we are talking about realism yeah I have to agree treating a super brawl, especially one with unknown powers involved, as training exercise would be gross negligence. The damage to civilian infrastructure aside powers can be basically anything. If Hench Woman pierces someones heart with a light speed beam attack or simply fires a big aoe without an obvious build up there is nothing Maxima with all her superspeed could do. Only by story conventions can you be relatively sure that no irreversible damage will happen suddenly
    And if the team cant function without Max present, then it becomes a disaster the moment Max gets disabled, or occupied somewhere else.
    If Hench Wench had a light speed beam she could have opened up with it, and even your "realistic" Max would have been unable to do anything.
    But she does not have one. So she is fairly safe to leave to the team.

    edit.
    As current comic shows then she is more a powerful idiot than anything else. With no hints of super speed.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2020-11-26 at 06:08 AM.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    On the plus side, max is now free to twist hench's head around so far she can cosplay as an owl. Then go back to Brut. Or be more nonlethal first, whatever. I figure she can put hench in a choke hold or something to bring her down. Might take an extra couple seconds to dial in the exact strength needed to do that without decapitation, but she can handle that while flying her into boeing territory to get her away from the city and most of the stuff her powers seem to work on environment wise.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    I think if Max was really worried she wouldn't still be standing there holding a gun. She's let her team do most of the fighting with Wench so far. That may well have changed though. Wench is showing a very large and power set of power and is causing some heavy collateral damage. Wonder what Sydney is up to though? She should be back from hiding the stasis pod by now. Went after the flyer that had the rifle maybe. Also Dabbler and Cora?
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Except no, you -do- in fact do that. At some point you have to field your green recruits.
    You can then, as you seem to favor, send them directly into the roughest grinder available and lose ˝ of them.
    OR, you can ease them into things with light tasks of increasing difficulty, and veterans on standby to bail them out.



    And if the team cant function without Max present, then it becomes a disaster the moment Max gets disabled, or occupied somewhere else.
    If Hench Wench had a light speed beam she could have opened up with it, and even your "realistic" Max would have been unable to do anything.
    But she does not have one. So she is fairly safe to leave to the team.

    edit.
    As current comic shows then she is more a powerful idiot than anything else. With no hints of super speed.
    When you send green recruits into battle you do not tell them to play around. Nor do you withhold support from other troops to "let them learn". For example, on D-Day the troops sent onto Omaha Beach were relatively green. Did they just let them go? No; rather, they had the largest armada in the history of the world offshore bombarding all five beaches, including Omaha, and literally thousands of bombers. "This is your first fight" is not at all the same thing as "Veteran troops will hold back and let the enemy try to kill you so you can learn what that's like".

    In fact, one of the German survivors of D-Day recalled later that when he saw the Allied fleet he knew it was over for Germany - that there was no way to defeat anyone who could field that many ships. It's one of the great lines from The Longest Day - Plustak (I think that's his name) calls his superiors and announces "It's the invasion! There's hundreds of ships out there - thousands! It's incredible".
    Superior: "Which way are they headed? North, or south?"
    Plustak: "Right. At. Me." hangs up
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    When you send green recruits into battle you do not tell them to play around. Nor do you withhold support from other troops to "let them learn". For example, on D-Day the troops sent onto Omaha Beach were relatively green. Did they just let them go? No; rather, they had the largest armada in the history of the world offshore bombarding all five beaches, including Omaha, and literally thousands of bombers. "This is your first fight" is not at all the same thing as "Veteran troops will hold back and let the enemy try to kill you so you can learn what that's like".

    In fact, one of the German survivors of D-Day recalled later that when he saw the Allied fleet he knew it was over for Germany - that there was no way to defeat anyone who could field that many ships. It's one of the great lines from The Longest Day - Plustak (I think that's his name) calls his superiors and announces "It's the invasion! There's hundreds of ships out there - thousands! It's incredible".
    Superior: "Which way are they headed? North, or south?"
    Plustak: "Right. At. Me." hangs up
    Its not about holding back the vets, its about holding back excessive firepower unless its needed. You dont nuke every battlefield just because it would end the fight faster. You only deploy the heavy ordinance when its needed. Maxima is heavy ordinance. She is overkill for the majority of super fights. There is a reason the justice league has more than just superman, and that every fight doesnt end with, "And then superman showed up and bodied calendar man" Because not every fight needs to have him show up to end it in an instant.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Its not about holding back the vets, its about holding back excessive firepower unless its needed. You dont nuke every battlefield just because it would end the fight faster. You only deploy the heavy ordinance when its needed. Maxima is heavy ordinance. She is overkill for the majority of super fights. There is a reason the justice league has more than just superman, and that every fight doesnt end with, "And then superman showed up and bodied calendar man" Because not every fight needs to have him show up to end it in an instant.
    In the case of normal weapons there's almost always a tradeoff between firepower and precision. You hold back the heavy ordinance because it lacks precision and risks collateral damage, or it's too expensive, or it's too slow, etc. You can have superheroes who are like this, like the Hulk or, in a story that actually stressed this point specifically, Mr. Incredible in Incredibles II.

    The problem with a character like Maxima, or Superman, is that they don't have a downside of this kind. They have access to both impossibly ridiculous power, and impossibly ridiculous precision. They are OP without any appreciable downsides and it presents a problem for a story because they are perfectly capable of solving problems below their power tier at zero risk and faster than their lower-tiered allies.

    Now, it's an established feature of comic book logic that this doesn't happen, because it eliminates possible stories. Superman could round up an incarcerate Batman's entire rogue's gallery in a matter of minutes and put them in a prison in space or on an alien world that they could never escape back to Earth from. He doesn't do this because...well, ultimately, because that would really crimp the existence of Batman's comic line. It's just something you have to accept with regard to comic book universes.

    Grrlpower, unfortunately made the mistake of tying together the 'OP good guy trump card' role and the 'team leader' role, and because Maxima can't really fulfill both roles at the same time, this creates an inherent tension in any situation as to whether it would be more efficient for her to play team leader and direct everyone else or if it would be better for her to simply solve the problem herself. It also makes it very difficult for her to do the 'fight the minion beast at the edge of the panel' trick that conventional super teams do with characters like The Hulk or Superman while Cap or Batman comes up with a plan to stop the doomsday weapon with everyone else. The exception being during the Vehemence fight when Maxima did indeed go one-on-one but Sydney had to take on the team leader role.

    Unfortunately there's also no one else to step up and take command while liberating Maxima from story-crimping double-duty. Hiro is the only other member of the team who functions in the same universe as 'professionalism' but he's also astonishingly bland.
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Its not about holding back the vets, its about holding back excessive firepower unless its needed. You dont nuke every battlefield just because it would end the fight faster. You only deploy the heavy ordinance when its needed. Maxima is heavy ordinance. She is overkill for the majority of super fights. There is a reason the justice league has more than just superman, and that every fight doesnt end with, "And then superman showed up and bodied calendar man" Because not every fight needs to have him show up to end it in an instant.
    Again, Omaha Beach. Prior to the troops landing there were battleships firing at the defenses. There were hundreds of bombers dumping thousands of bombs. One of the key things that broke the fire that had them pinned down was destroyers coming up to the point where they were almost running aground and firing 5" cannons at the German pillboxes.

    Maxima with her super speed could rip Hench Wench's head off and fling it at Brut's head, knocking his head off, too. That would be much safer for the civilians.
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Again, Omaha Beach. Prior to the troops landing there were battleships firing at the defenses. There were hundreds of bombers dumping thousands of bombs. One of the key things that broke the fire that had them pinned down was destroyers coming up to the point where they were almost running aground and firing 5" cannons at the German pillboxes.

    Maxima with her super speed could rip Hench Wench's head off and fling it at Brut's head, knocking his head off, too. That would be much safer for the civilians.
    "could" in the sense that its physically possible, sure. But not "could" in the sense that she would actually be allowed to do that. Max murdering her opponents in the middle of the street, especially in a wildly gory fashion, would never be permitted by her superiors.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    "could" in the sense that its physically possible, sure. But not "could" in the sense that she would actually be allowed to do that. Max murdering her opponents in the middle of the street, especially in a wildly gory fashion, would never be permitted by her superiors.
    She could however, grab Hench Wench and throw her at Brut and than catch them both and hold them up by the throat until they surrendered.
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