Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[lord_khaine]

IIR his arc correctly his absorption range grows when he has more power so it might be pretty low when weak. They could try opening a fight club next to his cell!

That in turn means getting the people you want to take an interest pacifistic stuff like reading, writhing, flower arrangement or sport, and exposing them to Vehemence's aura.
You dont see the issue there? :P

I do think this is the perfect way to handle it. Easy to shut down. Only involves willing participants.

[Traab]

That in turn means getting the people you want to take an interest pacifistic stuff like reading, writhing, flower arrangement or sport, and exposing them to Vehemence's aura.
You dont see the issue there? :P

I do think this is the perfect way to handle it. Easy to shut down. Only involves willing participants.

And short of some utterly stupid series of events, wont escalate. Of course, being supers, utterly stupid series of events is totally possible. All we need is for deus to decide to have opal teleport him during a distraction when he is out in the open or something like that and he is back on the rogues gallery list. That being said, the interesting thing about vehemence is, he isnt actually a killer. The one and only reason he was going to kill maxima was self defense. She was totally going to kill him if she survived and could come after him before he could ramp up. In this scenario he gets to have a little super violence, and doesnt risk being summarily executed by someone he knows it would take a literal warzone to ramp up enough to stand against. He wins this way with the least amount of risk. Im not even sure he would WANT to escape at this point because he knows what will happen if he does and meets her again.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Interesting that she was able to take him down so easily, though. Is he just not a technically skilled fighter like her, Math, or Jabberwocky? Or perhaps he gets more juice out of someone getting beaten than an exchange of successfully defended blows, even if that 'victim' is him, and took the initial dive to power up/satiate himself quicker?

And yeah, with two Superman analogs, Dabbler, and Halo all present, I'd argue that Vehemence is less likely to escape here than he was from his cell.

[Traab]

Interesting that she was able to take him down so easily, though. Is he just not a technically skilled fighter like her, Math, or Jabberwocky? Or perhaps he gets more juice out of someone getting beaten than an exchange of successfully defended blows, even if that 'victim' is him, and took the initial dive to power up/satiate himself quicker?

And yeah, with two Superman analogs, Dabbler, and Halo all present, I'd argue that Vehemence is less likely to escape here than he was from his cell.

Well the thing is, he doesnt seem to start off very high up the scale. He is tough and strong yeah, but not that bad. Remember when he first joined in during the super brawl, regular bullets (albeit high caliber ones) were still able to injure him at least somewhat. That was AFTER he had significant time to feed and grow stronger. The problem is, if you dont put him down as in ending the fight put him down, he gets stronger. So the first take down is easy, the second gets harder, then eventually he puts you down because you cant hurt him anymore. I get the feeling he is a true brute in style, just taking hits on the chin till they stop hurting then winning the fight because at that point he is too strong, too tough, and too quick for you to handle. Not counting any random powers he grants himself with excess energy.

As for escaping, my main point was that he is stuck in isolation in a highly classified cell location. Right now he is out in the open and probably easier to find and arrange an incident. Yeah there are some heavy hitters there, but still, the opportunity exists.

[Forum Explorer]

And short of some utterly stupid series of events, wont escalate. Of course, being supers, utterly stupid series of events is totally possible. All we need is for deus to decide to have opal teleport him during a distraction when he is out in the open or something like that and he is back on the rogues gallery list. That being said, the interesting thing about vehemence is, he isnt actually a killer. The one and only reason he was going to kill maxima was self defense. She was totally going to kill him if she survived and could come after him before he could ramp up. In this scenario he gets to have a little super violence, and doesnt risk being summarily executed by someone he knows it would take a literal warzone to ramp up enough to stand against. He wins this way with the least amount of risk. Im not even sure he would WANT to escape at this point because he knows what will happen if he does and meets her again.

I imagine Kevin still wants to be free to enjoy everything else life has to offer, but I suspect he'd be willing to just serve his time at this point.

[lord_khaine]

Interesting that she was able to take him down so easily, though. Is he just not a technically skilled fighter like her, Math, or Jabberwocky? Or perhaps he gets more juice out of someone getting beaten than an exchange of successfully defended blows, even if that 'victim' is him, and took the initial dive to power up/satiate himself quicker?

Well. He absolutely isnt as skilled as even Jabberwocky who are a supernaturally skilled Martial artist. Let alone Math who seemingly are just -the best- when it comes to skill.
That does not mean Vehemence isnt quite skilled at fighting. He did notice Anvil's kinetic absorbtion ability just from seeing her fight.

At the same time. He regenerates. And like to fight. So im quite certain he is going to drag this out as far as possible.
Even if it means holding back initially.

As for escaping, my main point was that he is stuck in isolation in a highly classified cell location. Right now he is out in the open and probably easier to find and arrange an incident. Yeah there are some heavy hitters there, but still, the opportunity exists.

Now he is instead in a random location in the middle of nowhere. Under the watchful eye of a Superspeed Heroine.
I honestly know what i would considder most secret. And most secure

[The Glyphstone]

I'm laying my money on this being a supervised work release, not some sort of dietary dependency. To the best of my memory, it was a trait of succubi that made them need to feed on lust, not tantric magicians in general. Kevin is a human, so also being a vehemic magician probably isn't forcing him to eat that power.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm laying my money on this being a supervised work release, not some sort of dietary dependency. To the best of my memory, it was a trait of succubi that made them need to feed on lust, not tantric magicians in general. Kevin is a human, so also being a vehemic magician probably isn't forcing him to eat that power.

Kevin is a super. If someone learned to harness vehemic energy the hard way, they probably wouldn't be dependent on it, but he manipulates it naturally.

This does not necessarily mean he needs it to live, of course, but given the author's commentary under the comic strongly implies he does, I'mma go with "he needs it to live, like a succubus needs tantric energy".

[The Glyphstone]

Seeing that, I now agree with you instead.

[Yuki Akuma]

Good, good.

Also I may have come across as more sarcastic in my previous post than intended. I'm not trying to be a jerk I swear. It just happens.

[The Glyphstone]

I just don't always bother to read the commentaries, depending on if I have time or if I'm on my mobile versus PC.

[Shining Wrath]

Vehemence needs violence to survive.
His prison presumably doesn't supply much, because otherwise he wouldn't stay in it - he'd absorb, and broadcast his aura, and absorb some more, and ... well, vicious circles are especially vicious when vehement.
Now, could someone (Deus?) be monitoring him hoping for a chance to free and recruit him? You betcha.
Could anyone put together a team that could come in and quickly extract him with Maxima, Hiro, Dabbler, and Halo standing guard? Possibly - but while you may be able to predict two of the four, Dabbler and Halo are likely to respond in ways you didn't anticipate. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of Chaotic.

It'd be a nice episode, but I don't see it as the next plot twist.

[Traab]

The thing is, quick egress powers only require a short distraction to work. They probably wouldnt use opal because her powers are known and she is also known to be working for deus, but im sure there are all sorts of random skills both super and supernatural, also alien, that could be used to pull a quick smash and grab if the risk was worth the reward. I really dont think its likely to happen though, despite my arguing all the ways it totally could, I just wanted to point out that this is risky

[Shining Wrath]

The thing is, quick egress powers only require a short distraction to work. They probably wouldnt use opal because her powers are known and she is also known to be working for deus, but im sure there are all sorts of random skills both super and supernatural, also alien, that could be used to pull a quick smash and grab if the risk was worth the reward. I really dont think its likely to happen though, despite my arguing all the ways it totally could, I just wanted to point out that this is risky

Couple of counter-points:
If Arc-lite is on the job, they should be countering attempts to monitor whatever high security prison Vehemence is kept in. No one should know he's being taken out.
Setting Vehemence out as bait to see who rises, and then unleashing an ambush of the would-be rescuers is not past Maxima's / Dabbler's level of plotting.

I think what we're likely to see is the new recruit getting a good work out and test, nothing more. But who knows?

[lord_khaine]

The thing is, quick egress powers only require a short distraction to work. They probably wouldnt use opal because her powers are known and she is also known to be working for deus, but im sure there are all sorts of random skills both super and supernatural, also alien, that could be used to pull a quick smash and grab if the risk was worth the reward. I really dont think its likely to happen though, despite my arguing all the ways it totally could, I just wanted to point out that this is risky

The counter point thats made is, the amount of effort it takes to break Vehemence out here.
Is significantly smaller than the one required to bust him out of prison.

You dont get a prison thats more safe than beneath the watchful eye of Maxima and Dabbler.
Not for the resources thats available to Archon.

If you could steal him here. You can steal him anywhere on earth.

Edit.

New comic. Where we see Kevin CAN indeed play nice with the other kids. If given motivation.

[Traab]

The one thing im worried about here is long term effects. Right now the heroes can slap vehemence around willy nilly until he reaches a certain level of raw power, but with extensive sparring, he may start gaining skill to back up his strength and become that much more dangerous. He will still have to ramp up to deal with the heavy hitters, but I can see a time where math and jabber for example, arent able to casually manhandle him even at his lower levels of power. And he will get a LOT more dangerous at those ramped up stages because he has fighting ability to back up his power.

[Keltest]

The one thing im worried about here is long term effects. Right now the heroes can slap vehemence around willy nilly until he reaches a certain level of raw power, but with extensive sparring, he may start gaining skill to back up his strength and become that much more dangerous. He will still have to ramp up to deal with the heavy hitters, but I can see a time where math and jabber for example, arent able to casually manhandle him even at his lower levels of power. And he will get a LOT more dangerous at those ramped up stages because he has fighting ability to back up his power.

Max and, to a degree, Sydney have enough raw blasting power that unless he just starts a soccer riot or something for a couple hours before they find him, they can shut him down in pretty short order if they really are pressed to. It would suck for him personally, and i cant imagine they would want to escalate to that degree, especially as a first resort, but they could do it.

[Dragonus45]

Yea remember that Max, being more military personnel than traditional superheroine, has explicitly demonstrated a very real capacity and inclination to escalate faster then he can possibly gain power now that she knows his tricks. And he KNOWS this, I'm not saying he will never escape ever again but it certainly won't be during one of these sparring sessions bar a serious effort of Deus or some other massive threat of a character for whom Kevin would almost be a side show.

Also for anyone curious about the movie he mentions, it's Five Deadly Venoms a classic Shaw Brothers film absolutely worth checking out for anyone remotely interested in martial arts movies and easily Shaw Brother's second best film.

[Shining Wrath]

Max and, to a degree, Sydney have enough raw blasting power that unless he just starts a soccer riot or something for a couple hours before they find him, they can shut him down in pretty short order if they really are pressed to. It would suck for him personally, and i cant imagine they would want to escalate to that degree, especially as a first resort, but they could do it.

Sydney can, I believe, lift him off the ground and hold him there until the soccer riot is dispersed and his vehemic energy levels return to baseline. It might be boring, and counting on Halo to maintain concentration for hours is risky, but Vehemence has no ranged attack capability (other than throwing stuff). Once levitated, he's a big ball of powerless rage.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Sydney can, I believe, lift him off the ground and hold him there until the soccer riot is dispersed and his vehemic energy levels return to baseline. It might be boring, and counting on Halo to maintain concentration for hours is risky, but Vehemence has no ranged attack capability (other than throwing stuff). Once levitated, he's a big ball of powerless rage.

Assuming he wasn't yet strong enough to overpower the light hook, she wouldn't even need to fly. She could just hold him in the air like a very angry balloon on a string. (She would probably still want to fly away to prevent his aura from causing more violence, but I do like that image.)

...I was about to say that unless all Kevin already had the fundamental skills and just needed practice, getting the crap beat out of him would be a poor way to grow significantly in skill. But I thought about it, and that might well be the case. There's no reason he couldn't have learned martial arts, and in fact probably did as a way to feed, but actually trying to practice them with human opponents would see him scaling in power to the point that said practice wouldn't be very useful (no real difference in effectiveness between a perfect punch/dodge and a sloppy one when you're strong enough you won't even notice their block/attack). Now that he has opponents that can keep up with him, technique matters for perhaps the first time in his life, and he can start refining his.

Alternatively, it would also make sense for a vehemic whats-it-called to have a power devoted to learning fighting, a la Marvel's Taskmaster or A Practical Guide To Evil's Ranger/Squire.

[Traab]

Sydney can, I believe, lift him off the ground and hold him there until the soccer riot is dispersed and his vehemic energy levels return to baseline. It might be boring, and counting on Halo to maintain concentration for hours is risky, but Vehemence has no ranged attack capability (other than throwing stuff). Once levitated, he's a big ball of powerless rage.

Nah he has overpowered her light hook even before he went full power. Im not saying he would be able to beat them or will turn into bruce lee crossed with the incredible hulk, im just pointing out that his danger level is going to increase as he gains skill. That was the very first super brawl he has ever been a part of, and he nearly killed maxima and had all of arcswat beat. Experience is just going to make him a better fighter and more dangerous if he ever gets free and goes rogue again. Im aware max could ash his brain at need, but that doesnt change the fact that he will get more dangerous overall.

[lord_khaine]

The one thing im worried about here is long term effects. Right now the heroes can slap vehemence around willy nilly until he reaches a certain level of raw power, but with extensive sparring, he may start gaining skill to back up his strength and become that much more dangerous. He will still have to ramp up to deal with the heavy hitters, but I can see a time where math and jabber for example, arent able to casually manhandle him even at his lower levels of power. And he will get a LOT more dangerous at those ramped up stages because he has fighting ability to back up his power.

I still think its an false assumption that Vehemence isnt already a skilled brawler.
With his bulk i think he is already using the optimal fighting style. Hitting someone REALLY hard.
But Math and Jabberwocky are both supernaturally fast and agile. Of course he will look like a dofus until he power up.

Another important point to consider. Is that Vehemence's motivation isnt to win. Its to drag the fight out for as long as possible.
Since the hard you beat him, the harder he gets.

Sydney can, I believe, lift him off the ground and hold him there until the soccer riot is dispersed and his vehemic energy levels return to baseline. It might be boring, and counting on Halo to maintain concentration for hours is risky, but Vehemence has no ranged attack capability (other than throwing stuff). Once levitated, he's a big ball of powerless rage.

Problem here. Sydney dont have any levitation power to use on Vehemence.
She has a light tentacle whose strenght is about enough to lift i think 3 tons?
Thats not strong enough to restraint a middle weight opponent. Let alone Vehemence when he gets into Ultra-Heavyweight.

[Traab]

I still think its an false assumption that Vehemence isnt already a skilled brawler.
With his bulk i think he is already using the optimal fighting style. Hitting someone REALLY hard.
But Math and Jabberwocky are both supernaturally fast and agile. Of course he will look like a dofus until he power up.

Another important point to consider. Is that Vehemence's motivation isnt to win. Its to drag the fight out for as long as possible.
Since the hard you beat him, the harder he gets.




Problem here. Sydney dont have any levitation power to use on Vehemence.
She has a light tentacle whose strenght is about enough to lift i think 3 tons?
Thats not strong enough to restraint a middle weight opponent. Let alone Vehemence when he gets into Ultra-Heavyweight.

I believe her limit was last judged at lifting 15 tons. Not enough to manhandle steel girders around the construction site, but good for gathering and dumping debris. And like I said, we literally see her try to use her lighthook on vehemence. Outside of the trip, he basically yanks her around by it or casually unwraps himself when she tries. Or utterly ignores it while he is choking out maxima. Oh, and we cant forget his magical ability to latch himself to the ground at will that he did to stop maxima from taking him to orbit. To overcome that max had to punch so hard it lifted him and practically the entire parking lot worth of mass.

All that being said, even if he DID ramp up to his peak power level again, that doesnt mean max couldnt kill him. He had forced her into turtle mode by grabbing her unexpectedly. That required dumping all other stats to the point where all she could do was endure. Now that she knows he can get that strong, she likely would hang back and go full power strength or blasting ability or something and melt him down. She DID cave in his throat with that full force punch after all. Give her some leverage and her fist might emerge from the back of his neck.

[Shining Wrath]

Per Dave's comments Vehemence weighs about 400 pounds more than Jabberwocky, so maybe 550 pounds. That's quite a bit less than 15 tons.

I admit he can pull on the tentacle, so fly up into the air, let him pull on it, and then dissipate it, and catch him after he falls (length of tentacle minus 5 feet or so for margin) feet. Wash, rinse, repeat, and he's losing power every second this goes on because no one is getting hurt.

[Keltest]

Per Dave's comments Vehemence weighs about 400 pounds more than Jabberwocky, so maybe 550 pounds. That's quite a bit less than 15 tons.

I admit he can pull on the tentacle, so fly up into the air, let him pull on it, and then dissipate it, and catch him after he falls (length of tentacle minus 5 feet or so for margin) feet. Wash, rinse, repeat, and he's losing power every second this goes on because no one is getting hurt.

He feeds off of violence, not pain. If you had to be hurt for it to count, then his fight with Max wouldnt have charged him hardly at all, since neither side were meaningfully hurting the other.

[lord_khaine]

All that being said, even if he DID ramp up to his peak power level again, that doesnt mean max couldnt kill him. He had forced her into turtle mode by grabbing her unexpectedly. That required dumping all other stats to the point where all she could do was endure. Now that she knows he can get that strong, she likely would hang back and go full power strength or blasting ability or something and melt him down. She DID cave in his throat with that full force punch after all. Give her some leverage and her fist might emerge from the back of his neck.

Could yes. Likely not i think.
Since the direct conclusion of this is. That Vehemence at peak power level is so dangerous he forces Max into tank mode.
It was a full power punch at one of the best (or worst) places to land a punch. It still barely did any damage. It would not have done meaningful damage to a regenerator if Sydney had not been ready with a garotte.
And its extremely unlikely for Max to get that clean a punch in. On a opponent who are faster than herself.

I admit he can pull on the tentacle, so fly up into the air, let him pull on it, and then dissipate it, and catch him after he falls (length of tentacle minus 5 feet or so for margin) feet. Wash, rinse, repeat, and he's losing power every second this goes on because no one is getting hurt.

Problem. The tentacle isnt NEARLY strong enough to hold or slow Vehemence down at peak level power.
Its for that matter not fast enough either. Vehemence at peak is faster than Max. Vehemence below peak is a little slower than Max.
Max is still dodging bullets fast. This plan fails at the lifting Vehemence off the ground stage.

And for that matter. It also fails at the "not getting knocked out" stage that would follow.
I am quite confident that the strenght Vehemence has displayed, is enough to produce a eardrum-shattering sonic boom by clapping.

[Shining Wrath]

Could yes. Likely not i think.
Since the direct conclusion of this is. That Vehemence at peak power level is so dangerous he forces Max into tank mode.
It was a full power punch at one of the best (or worst) places to land a punch. It still barely did any damage. It would not have done meaningful damage to a regenerator if Sydney had not been ready with a garotte.
And its extremely unlikely for Max to get that clean a punch in. On a opponent who are faster than herself.



Problem. The tentacle isnt NEARLY strong enough to hold or slow Vehemence down at peak level power.
Its for that matter not fast enough either. Vehemence at peak is faster than Max. Vehemence below peak is a little slower than Max.
Max is still dodging bullets fast. This plan fails at the lifting Vehemence off the ground stage.

And for that matter. It also fails at the "not getting knocked out" stage that would follow.
I am quite confident that the strenght Vehemence has displayed, is enough to produce a eardrum-shattering sonic boom by clapping.

This is all theoretical silliness (my stuff as well ), because Vehemence / Maxima / Halo will have precisely the power level needed to make a good story. If Dave wants Halo to be able to defeat Vehemence by outthinking him, then she will. I notice that this battle seems to be taking place in a quarry; Maxima could possibly melt the stone beneath Vehemence, let him sink into it, and then let it solidify. Would that work? Only if Dave thinks it's funny.

"Could you have stopped Vehemence at any time?" "No, only when it's funny" - Roger Rabbit.

[Dragonus45]

I believe her limit was last judged at lifting 15 tons. Not enough to manhandle steel girders around the construction site, but good for gathering and dumping debris. And like I said, we literally see her try to use her lighthook on vehemence. Outside of the trip, he basically yanks her around by it or casually unwraps himself when she tries. Or utterly ignores it while he is choking out maxima. Oh, and we cant forget his magical ability to latch himself to the ground at will that he did to stop maxima from taking him to orbit. To overcome that max had to punch so hard it lifted him and practically the entire parking lot worth of mass.

Unfortuantely by the time he had been really interacting with her he had already gotten a sizable boost from the parking lot fight so it's hard to really gauge if she would be able to restrain him earlier then that. And the ability he had to anchor himself to the ground was one he admitted he needed a huge boost to do, if Maxima had parked his ass in low orbit before trying to beat him down it would have worked.

All that being said, even if he DID ramp up to his peak power level again, that doesnt mean max couldnt kill him. He had forced her into turtle mode by grabbing her unexpectedly. That required dumping all other stats to the point where all she could do was endure. Now that she knows he can get that strong, she likely would hang back and go full power strength or blasting ability or something and melt him down. She DID cave in his throat with that full force punch after all. Give her some leverage and her fist might emerge from the back of his neck.

Yea, Maxima made it real clear she was willing to escalate to lethal force the moment she found out he was growing stronger from lesser attempts to restrain him. That knowledge alone will probably see him playing very very nice for the forseable future until an outside player comes in to change that balance of forces.

Could yes. Likely not i think.
Since the direct conclusion of this is. That Vehemence at peak power level is so dangerous he forces Max into tank mode.
It was a full power punch at one of the best (or worst) places to land a punch. It still barely did any damage. It would not have done meaningful damage to a regenerator if Sydney had not been ready with a garotte.
And its extremely unlikely for Max to get that clean a punch in. On a opponent who are faster than herself.

Considering she didn't just put a laser through his skull the moment she was clear we still can't be certain that not shoving a hand through his throat and tearing his spine out through it wasn't a deliberate choice she made.

Anyways Vehemence took control of the fight when he revealed his umpteenth random power after regenerating an arm and hitting her with it. That kind of a chance only comes once and he outright stated he had to kill her then specifically because he was afraid of her if they ever had a round two. Even if he ever got to peak power again Max understands the shape of his powers enough to know she just needs to vaporize him if no other combination of abilities is present to cheese him unconscious. Considering that and the need to not have a prisoner starve to death, plus a great chance for some field training, the current events make perfect sense.

[halfeye]

Could yes. Likely not i think.
Since the direct conclusion of this is. That Vehemence at peak power level is so dangerous he forces Max into tank mode.
...

And for that matter. It also fails at the "not getting knocked out" stage that would follow.
I am quite confident that the strenght Vehemence has displayed, is enough to produce a eardrum-shattering sonic boom by clapping.

Halo/Sidney with her forcefield up can probably take one punch with no problems, she was dodging nukes on the Alari planet and surviving near misses.

[lord_khaine]

Considering she didn't just put a laser through his skull the moment she was clear we still can't be certain that not shoving a hand through his throat and tearing his spine out through it wasn't a deliberate choice she made.

We likely can. By all account she hit him with a full power punch. If that didnt take his head off she isnt going to be strong enough for what you suggest.

Anyways Vehemence took control of the fight when he revealed his umpteenth random power after regenerating an arm and hitting her with it. That kind of a chance only comes once and he outright stated he had to kill her then specifically because he was afraid of her if they ever had a round two. Even if he ever got to peak power again Max understands the shape of his powers enough to know she just needs to vaporize him if no other combination of abilities is present to cheese him unconscious. Considering that and the need to not have a prisoner starve to death, plus a great chance for some field training, the current events make perfect sense.

What he actually said was Max was willing to escalate to quickly. And to aim to main.
We have seen Max try and fail to dust Vehemence at peak power. Thats how she got caught.
Vehemence is to fast at peak. And Hand of Dust is sadly a touch range move.

Halo/Sidney with her forcefield up can probably take one punch with no problems, she was dodging nukes on the Alari planet and surviving near misses.

Count the number of orbs in use on what i responded to. There isnt a free hand for force shield when Flight and Light Hook are in use.