Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[tyckspoon]

Question remain how many of those solutions remain viable on a Vehemence at peak.

Likely depends a lot on if he can see them coming and/or how long they take to work. If he's at the level where he can just spend as much magic as he needs to invent a counter, then anything that gives him time to think will fail - he can countermagic it, although it's possible you may be able to force him to make bad trades (IE spend a lot more energy on an inefficient counter than you used to make the attempt, thus forcing him into a net loss of power, especially if what you're doing isn't particularly violent.)

[Dragonus45]

More the other way around i would say. At full power neither of them can stop him unless they catch him by surprise.
And actually i doubt Dabbler has the firepower. Vehemence is close to Marvel Thor tier toughness. And he regenerates.

Once again V pretty explicitly doesn't have the ability to survive Maxima if she hits him with a high powered laser. He surrendered specifically so she wouldn't vaporize his head and he doesn't have the element of surprise to catch her with a regenerating arm again. Dabbler probably doesn't have the ability to match Max's highest powered hits since those seem to be stronger full blown capitol ship weaponry in the rest of the universe, but I imagine what she lacks in power she makes up in variety and creativity. No way no how does V actually get away here without outside help and I doubt he is even stupid enough to try on his own.

[Forum Explorer]

Once again V pretty explicitly doesn't have the ability to survive Maxima if she hits him with a high powered laser. He surrendered specifically so she wouldn't vaporize his head and he doesn't have the element of surprise to catch her with a regenerating arm again. Dabbler probably doesn't have the ability to match Max's highest powered hits since those seem to be stronger full blown capitol ship weaponry in the rest of the universe, but I imagine what she lacks in power she makes up in variety and creativity. No way no how does V actually get away here without outside help and I doubt he is even stupid enough to try on his own.

To be more accurate, V doesn't know if he could regenerate his head. But like most sensible people, he doesn't want to put it to the test.

[lord_khaine]

Once again V pretty explicitly doesn't have the ability to survive Maxima if she hits him with a high powered laser. He surrendered specifically so she wouldn't vaporize his head and he doesn't have the element of surprise to catch her with a regenerating arm again. Dabbler probably doesn't have the ability to match Max's highest powered hits since those seem to be stronger full blown capitol ship weaponry in the rest of the universe, but I imagine what she lacks in power she makes up in variety and creativity. No way no how does V actually get away here without outside help and I doubt he is even stupid enough to try on his own.

And once again, how much theoretical firepower Max pack does not matter if she cant use it in a practical situation.
We LITERALLY saw how this goes in a comic. The one time Max was able to make this work, were when Max had the element of surprise.

Without that Vehemence is to fast. And Max to slow when power dumping energy blast. And so capital ship level weapons does not matter when they dont hit.

[Dragonus45]

And once again, how much theoretical firepower Max pack does not matter if she cant use it in a practical situation.
We LITERALLY saw how this goes in a comic. The one time Max was able to make this work, were when Max had the element of surprise.

Without that Vehemence is to fast. And Max to slow when power dumping energy blast. And so capital ship level weapons does not matter when they dont hit.

And once again, the only time V stopped her was with the element of surprise funny how that works. You keep saying he is "too fast" when the only reason he got her in a grapple was because he suddenly had an arm he didn't have a few minutes ago. Didn't you just link from a spot near there and say you reread this?

[Traab]

The difference between max and vehemence is, max always has her full power on tap. She can use it in an instant if she desires. Vehemence has to build up a LOT to get to the stage where max cant go lethal on him easy. And a large part of that involved not just max, but 30 other super powered people all getting violent with everyone else. I think MAYBE if she was willing to go that far, she could escalate him to the point where he can match her, but she literally has to let him get that strong. And on top of that, I dont think it goes into a permanent energy pool. Him getting bigger and stronger than he starts out as costs energy so he cant just store it up till he has enough to nuke maxima when he needs to burn it to be tough enough to not be nuked by her first. And it is pretty clear that its even worse than that. Its literally food for him, he burns that energy just by existing. Its just using it makes him run out faster.

[Shining Wrath]

The difference between max and vehemence is, max always has her full power on tap. She can use it in an instant if she desires. Vehemence has to build up a LOT to get to the stage where max cant go lethal on him easy. And a large part of that involved not just max, but 30 other super powered people all getting violent with everyone else. I think MAYBE if she was willing to go that far, she could escalate him to the point where he can match her, but she literally has to let him get that strong. And on top of that, I dont think it goes into a permanent energy pool. Him getting bigger and stronger than he starts out as costs energy so he cant just store it up till he has enough to nuke maxima when he needs to burn it to be tough enough to not be nuked by her first. And it is pretty clear that its even worse than that. Its literally food for him, he burns that energy just by existing. Its just using it makes him run out faster.

I'm remembering the Human Dissembler round Cora used on the cultist who was menacing Halo. I imagine that while Vehemence is powerful, there's probably some creatures in the galaxy that are also pretty powerful, and weapons have been devised to stop them, and Dabbler knows what they are and can build them. For example, I bet samples of V's blood have been taken, and analyzed, and Dabbler could have a poison that will (kill him / immobilize him / put him to sleep / at least slow him down a lot) even if he's at "Able to fight Maxima, times 100" power level. Or it's a spell. Or a ray. Or a force field. Or ... well, when you've got a person who is proficient at magic, and alien tech, and can call on the resources of ArcLight and the Council of Fantasy Creatures, and is a super-genius, I think we should assume that she's got not one Vehemence solution, but half a dozen. If she's got time to create a disguise for Max, she's got time to research how to keep Vehemence under control. If you're Maxima, do you task Dabbler to do this, or are we to assume Maxima is a complete total fool with an IQ lower than that of the average low-level mob boss?

EDIT:

Also, we know that Vehemence draws power from violence in the same way that a succubus draws power from sexual activity. In fact, we just saw Halo & Dabbler discussing the relative benefits of orgasm-based magic power. So - how hard would it be to get Dabbler enough sexual energy to match Vehemence? That is, how hard would it be to arrange an orgy? Dabbler even referred to the idea of a 50 person orgy back when we first saw Vehemence. Per the strip's stated logic, if Dabbler gets enough more sex energy from people having sex around her than Vehemence is getting violence energy from fighting, she's more powerful than he is. And then on top of that he has no fighting skill (we just saw that), just raw brute force. Dabbler can actually fight. And use magic. And use alien tech.

It'd be a weird strip, but if V starts getting out of hand Dabbler may grab the nearest person and yell at everyone to pair up and start coupling. Maybe that one would be Patreon only.

[Traab]

Oh my GOD its like he wanted to draw each face as wrong as possible without being obvious about it! Hiro went full derp, i dont know WHAT that face vehemence is making in panel two and three is supposed to be, even maxima looks derped out in panel three.

[Shining Wrath]

If Vehemence draws power from violence, is an attack like this "less violent" because it doesn't involve a punch or throw, but quite a bit more painful? Is Maxima's goal to cause maximum pain with minimum drama?

If so, that's effing sadistic. And with her super-speed she can do this, and similar stuff, almost at will. "Holy balls" may be foreshadowing.

Agree that V's face in panel #2 is badly drawn. And why are his pants visible? Weird art choices.

[Traab]

If Vehemence draws power from violence, is an attack like this "less violent" because it doesn't involve a punch or throw, but quite a bit more painful? Is Maxima's goal to cause maximum pain with minimum drama?

If so, that's effing sadistic. And with her super-speed she can do this, and similar stuff, almost at will. "Holy balls" may be foreshadowing.

Agree that V's face in panel #2 is badly drawn. And why are his pants visible? Weird art choices.

His pants are visible because he was squatting down to eye level with maxima I think. See how tall he is next panel? She basically comes up to his thigh. And yeah, sadistic, but really effective, minimum violence for maximum gain. He gets less energy from a finger poke of doom than a blunt force impact to break the bones normally. That could mean it costs more energy to heal than he got from taking that hit. See, this is her testing him out as well as their rematch. She needs to know if in the worst case scenario she needs to bring him down, if she has to go for instant kill or if she can disassemble him till he submits. Of course, that seems to have dislocated her index finger so thats a problem. She may have to adjust her stat allocation a bit more towards durability to continue this.

[Shining Wrath]

His pants are visible because he was squatting down to eye level with maxima I think. See how tall he is next panel? She basically comes up to his thigh. And yeah, sadistic, but really effective, minimum violence for maximum gain. He gets less energy from a finger poke of doom than a blunt force impact to break the bones normally. That could mean it costs more energy to heal than he got from taking that hit. See, this is her testing him out as well as their rematch. She needs to know if in the worst case scenario she needs to bring him down, if she has to go for instant kill or if she can disassemble him till he submits. Of course, that seems to have dislocated her index finger so thats a problem. She may have to adjust her stat allocation a bit more towards durability to continue this.

Quite possibly she's sending a message: "I don't have to kill you. I can make you beg for death instead. And you know I can catch you." Vehemence just learned a little humility. All the "mojo" in the world from Vitamin V won't help you if someone can reduce you to a quivering blob of pain in a second.

[Traab]

Quite possibly she's sending a message: "I don't have to kill you. I can make you beg for death instead. And you know I can catch you." Vehemence just learned a little humility. All the "mojo" in the world from Vitamin V won't help you if someone can reduce you to a quivering blob of pain in a second.

The thing is, there is probably a bit of that too, establishing the pecking order so he realizes that he isnt just there "because he chooses to cooperate" but this is a guy who will continually grow stronger through violence. So if it was as simple as taking the pain till he ramps up to the point of being invulnerable to those attacks he would probably be willing to take it. After all, he laughed at having his arm exploded and taking a 50 caliber bullet of special ammo to each eye. He can handle pain just fine when it leads to something. But I have to assume that the stronger and tougher he gets, the more power it takes to maintain, like diminishing returns sort of. So if she can cause maximum pain with the least amount of violence, he wont be able to escalate past a certain point and the pain wont stop till he does. An effective nonlethal method for her to take him down at need.

[Max_Killjoy]

I don't think that's V's pants, I think that's Max's jacket as she tosses it aside -- in panel three, I mean.

Go back a page and note the purple cuff where she has the sleeves rolled up.

[Traab]

I don't think that's V's pants, I think that's Max's jacket as she tosses it aside -- in panel three, I mean.

Go back a page and note the purple cuff where she has the sleeves rolled up.

So is he being a faux gentleman and helping her with her coat? Because he really does seem to be crouched down there behind her in that panel. And with his alien face its hard to tell what he is feeling right then.

[Shining Wrath]

The thing is, there is probably a bit of that too, establishing the pecking order so he realizes that he isnt just there "because he chooses to cooperate" but this is a guy who will continually grow stronger through violence. So if it was as simple as taking the pain till he ramps up to the point of being invulnerable to those attacks he would probably be willing to take it. After all, he laughed at having his arm exploded and taking a 50 caliber bullet of special ammo to each eye. He can handle pain just fine when it leads to something. But I have to assume that the stronger and tougher he gets, the more power it takes to maintain, like diminishing returns sort of. So if she can cause maximum pain with the least amount of violence, he wont be able to escalate past a certain point and the pain wont stop till he does. An effective nonlethal method for her to take him down at need.

In Tae Kwon Do we used to call 'em "wristie twisties". Are there moves which don't provide much vitamin V but do cause immense pain? It appears there are.
Another lesson V just learned: Maxima is probably smarter than he is. He learns from fighting her, but she learns from fighting him, too, and she has a wide range of techniques available to her.
And Maxima doesn't have quite the range of available techniques that Dabbler does. Notice that Dabbler didn't go down and fight him. She doesn't need to work on her hand to hand combat techniques.
Halo didn't go down and fight him, either, but that's because she really doesn't match up well.

[Traab]

In Tae Kwon Do we used to call 'em "wristie twisties". Are there moves which don't provide much vitamin V but do cause immense pain? It appears there are.
Another lesson V just learned: Maxima is probably smarter than he is. He learns from fighting her, but she learns from fighting him, too, and she has a wide range of techniques available to her.
And Maxima doesn't have quite the range of available techniques that Dabbler does. Notice that Dabbler didn't go down and fight him. She doesn't need to work on her hand to hand combat techniques.
Halo didn't go down and fight him, either, but that's because she really doesn't match up well.

Yeah her defense and mobility is far surpassing her offense at this stage. Her restraint currently tops out at 15 tons which isnt much more than basic bruiser level, and her ppo can carve up a tank, but guys like vehemence can stomp a tank and use it as a shoe to walk around with. Tank destruction is like the bare minimum of blaster power. On the other hand, she is capable of interstellar travel, and in atmosphere is probably several times faster than she was when max gave her a speed test that reached I think mach 4. Plus her shield which can tank nukes, albeit barely. She could probably bubble up and ignore vehemence. But she couldnt do anything to stop him unless its really early in the fight.

As for max, yeah, pressure point and joint locks are probably going to be her bread and butter against vehemence. Pinpoint attacks rather than blasts. Like a bullet versus a grenade. Concentrate the force into a tiny vulnerable area and do tons of damage with less force than using your fist would be. Use the claw side of the hammer instead of the blunt end. Same energy, greatly magnified damage.

[InvisibleBison]

Yeah her defense and mobility is far surpassing her offense at this stage. Her restraint currently tops out at 15 tons which isnt much more than basic bruiser level, and her ppo can carve up a tank, but guys like vehemence can stomp a tank and use it as a shoe to walk around with. Tank destruction is like the bare minimum of blaster power. On the other hand, she is capable of interstellar travel, and in atmosphere is probably several times faster than she was when max gave her a speed test that reached I think mach 4. Plus her shield which can tank nukes, albeit barely. She could probably bubble up and ignore vehemence. But she couldnt do anything to stop him unless its really early in the fight.

I think you are underestimating the ppo's power - she was able to blast through the giant robots on the Alari homeworld easily enough, and while we don't know exactly how tough they are they're definitely stronger than tanks.

[Traab]

I think you are underestimating the ppo's power - she was able to blast through the giant robots on the Alari homeworld easily enough, and while we don't know exactly how tough they are they're definitely stronger than tanks.

Yeah but remember her fighting that robot creature hybrid thing sciona built? She did a rapid fire attack that barely caused any damage to the building she was on and caught the trees on fire more than anything. Her laser power seems highly variable.

[Ibrinar]

Seems the odd vehemence face wasn't a one time thing.

[Traab]

Yeah, and yep, called it. Minimum force for maximum effect = vehemence not being able to juice up off fighting her. Now, that being said, we will have to wait and see just how effective of a strategy it is. Will it just SLOW his growth? Or is it actually enough to wear him down? Right now its a theory worth testing, and its clearly having an effect on him. She is free to tank up to the point where he cant hurt her, as well as boosting her speed and strength enough to pull off these vulnerable part attacks.

[Shining Wrath]

So the way to fight Vehemence is to cause as much pain with as little violence as possible. Which suggests that he feeds off - what? The actual energy expended in fighting, not the emotions?

I get what Dave is going for, but it does make me wonder how V's power works, exactly. What is the definition of violence?

In author comment we learn that his most powerful feature is the aura. Dude's a Paladin. :-) But it appears that a skilled fighter can make it very unpleasant for Vehemence in a one-on-one fight, and Maxima right now is giving the entire ArcSwat team a lesson in how to make Vehemence want to quit. Imagine how much pain for minimal violence Math could cause. "Taking all the fun out of violence" can be fun for the person who knows how to fight.

Vehemence is going to go back to his cell and realize he needs to learn to fight, not just brawl. I expect he'll be watching UFC matches full-time, if they let him.

Halo lacks any precision minimal violence maximum pain attacks. Of the A-listers, she probably matches up worst against Vehemence. Her job is to shut down the aura and hope someone else can make him surrender.

And again I wonder just how many ways Dabbler can inflict pain using magic and tech, with minimal violence. I think there's a reason she's not participating - she, not Maxima, is the final line of defense.

[Keltest]

So the way to fight Vehemence is to cause as much pain with as little violence as possible. Which suggests that he feeds off - what? The actual energy expended in fighting, not the emotions?

I get what Dave is going for, but it does make me wonder how V's power works, exactly. What is the definition of violence?

In author comment we learn that his most powerful feature is the aura. Dude's a Paladin. :-) But it appears that a skilled fighter can make it very unpleasant for Vehemence in a one-on-one fight, and Maxima right now is giving the entire ArcSwat team a lesson in how to make Vehemence want to quit. Imagine how much pain for minimal violence Math could cause. "Taking all the fun out of violence" can be fun for the person who knows how to fight.

Vehemence is going to go back to his cell and realize he needs to learn to fight, not just brawl. I expect he'll be watching UFC matches full-time, if they let him.

Halo lacks any precision minimal violence maximum pain attacks. Of the A-listers, she probably matches up worst against Vehemence. Her job is to shut down the aura and hope someone else can make him surrender.

And again I wonder just how many ways Dabbler can inflict pain using magic and tech, with minimal violence. I think there's a reason she's not participating - she, not Maxima, is the final line of defense.

Low power vehemence is still vulnerable to having large chunks of his body evaporated. Max is making a point here that if he tries anything funny, theyve put a lot of thought into how to fight him a second time even without killing him. The intent, presumably, is to influence his willingness to cooperate, and doesnt get so enthusiastic that he "forgets" what the situation is.

[Shining Wrath]

Low power vehemence is still vulnerable to having large chunks of his body evaporated. Max is making a point here that if he tries anything funny, theyve put a lot of thought into how to fight him a second time even without killing him. The intent, presumably, is to influence his willingness to cooperate, and doesnt get so enthusiastic that he "forgets" what the situation is.

Let us assume for a moment that Arc would like to recruit Vehemence as a Swat team member. He doesn't seem to be MWAHAHAHAHAHA psycho evil, and he's very powerful. There are circumstances (like a war) where he could be very useful.

So what do you need to do?
1) Teach him that even at high power levels he's still vulnerable.
2) Teach him to respect the chain of command.
3) Persuade him that he benefits from joining - that he's better off with them than against them

Now, finding a way to know you can trust Vehemence is more difficult, but maybe that's part of #1 - you can trust him because he knows that if he betrays the team he's likely to wind up dead. I'd still be worried if he got dropped onto a battlefield, or into a riot, and ramped his power levels up to you-must-be-kidding levels. He might try to take his chance, but since he can't fly (I assume he could run very fast, though, and maybe jump for miles a la The Hulk), he still can't get off-planet. Kill Maxima, and know that the rest of the team just made ending you priority #1? Risky.

EDIT: what if he put all the power he was gaining from, e.g., a riot, into expanding his aura, and as a result the riot started spreading? In, say, New York or Tokyo or Mexico City or any other megapolis? Could he conceivably spread his aura over the entire planet and become god-king of Earth as everyone not inside Halo's protective sphere becomes insanely violent?

[Keltest]

Let us assume for a moment that Arc would like to recruit Vehemence as a Swat team member. He doesn't seem to be MWAHAHAHAHAHA psycho evil, and he's very powerful. There are circumstances (like a war) where he could be very useful.

So what do you need to do?
1) Teach him that even at high power levels he's still vulnerable.
2) Teach him to respect the chain of command.
3) Persuade him that he benefits from joining - that he's better off with them than against them

Now, finding a way to know you can trust Vehemence is more difficult, but maybe that's part of #1 - you can trust him because he knows that if he betrays the team he's likely to wind up dead. I'd still be worried if he got dropped onto a battlefield, or into a riot, and ramped his power levels up to you-must-be-kidding levels. He might try to take his chance, but since he can't fly (I assume he could run very fast, though, and maybe jump for miles a la The Hulk), he still can't get off-planet. Kill Maxima, and know that the rest of the team just made ending you priority #1? Risky.

EDIT: what if he put all the power he was gaining from, e.g., a riot, into expanding his aura, and as a result the riot started spreading? In, say, New York or Tokyo or Mexico City or any other megapolis? Could he conceivably spread his aura over the entire planet and become god-king of Earth as everyone not inside Halo's protective sphere becomes insanely violent?

I doubt it. He doesnt seem to be getting anything from, say, a battle on the other side of the planet. Maybe he could increase his aura that far if he wanted, but i dont think he would be able to feed from it.

[Traab]

It wouldnt surprise me that he could theoretically make his aura spread around the world, but im fairly sure he mentioned it was an energy intensive skill and I imagine its a lot like his other boosts, the higher the boost, the higher, exponentially, it costs him. I get the feeling that regular humans dont provide enough violence energy per person to make that happen.

And shining, I think its a bit of a hybrid effect. Like how succubi can hang out around horny people and leech energy, but it will never amount to as much as a good old fashioned frenetic bit of boinking. So by using the least amount of force to create the effect she wants, she is denying him the overflow of energy that he would absorb if she wasnt using pinpoint precision strikes on particularly vulnerable areas. I bet she is also staying calm and cool rather than emanating "RA!!!! MAXIMA SMASH!!!" energy. Again going back to succubi, its the difference between a gynecologist examining lady parts, and a frat bro doing the same to his girlfriend. Only one is going to feed the succubi.

[Shining Wrath]

It wouldnt surprise me that he could theoretically make his aura spread around the world, but im fairly sure he mentioned it was an energy intensive skill and I imagine its a lot like his other boosts, the higher the boost, the higher, exponentially, it costs him. I get the feeling that regular humans dont provide enough violence energy per person to make that happen.

And shining, I think its a bit of a hybrid effect. Like how succubi can hang out around horny people and leech energy, but it will never amount to as much as a good old fashioned frenetic bit of boinking. So by using the least amount of force to create the effect she wants, she is denying him the overflow of energy that he would absorb if she wasnt using pinpoint precision strikes on particularly vulnerable areas. I bet she is also staying calm and cool rather than emanating "RA!!!! MAXIMA SMASH!!!" energy. Again going back to succubi, its the difference between a gynecologist examining lady parts, and a frat bro doing the same to his girlfriend. Only one is going to feed the succubi.

The energy required to extend / maintain the aura is probably a function of the area covered (good ol' pi-r^2 until you start getting a large enough area to be a spherical effect - 4pir^2 but only the portion of the sphere covered). The resulting gain of energy absorbed is going to be a function of the number of people in the aura and how violent they get. So, start in Shanghai or New Delhi for maximum population density, and see how far you can get.

Agree about Maxima remaining calm and using pinpoint strikes. That seems to be the logic of the strip; the amount of vitamin V generated is related to the amount of force used, total, while Maxima is using less force but concentrating it. If V=~pounds of force exerted, what Maxima is going is using fewer pounds, but aiming them at a small area for greater pounds per square inch.

[TeChameleon]

EDIT: what if he put all the power he was gaining from, e.g., a riot, into expanding his aura, and as a result the riot started spreading? In, say, New York or Tokyo or Mexico City or any other megapolis? Could he conceivably spread his aura over the entire planet and become god-king of Earth as everyone not inside Halo's protective sphere becomes insanely violent?

There's also the fact that it wouldn't last; people who are doing nothing but fight are going to start dying fairly quickly due to lack of self-care (dying of thirst within, what, two-three days?), and, as Vehemence himself notes, 'the dead aren't violent'. He might get a short-term mega-boost, but it would fizzle out relatively quickly (along with the majority of the human race), at which point he's 'ruling' a dead rock full of corpses, which is not an endgame he's interested in.

[Max_Killjoy]

Just what I need in my monday-morning comic... someone talking with a mouthful of food, closeup, right there in the panel.

[Shining Wrath]

Vehemence is getting frustrated and angry. I wonder if that increases his power?
At any rate, picking up a 50' section of stone and using it as a club suggests he's got some serious power going.

[Traab]

Vehemence is getting frustrated and angry. I wonder if that increases his power?
At any rate, picking up a 50' section of stone and using it as a club suggests he's got some serious power going.

Id imagine regenerating a third of his shattered face means he got to absorb quite a bit of energy just then. Its kind of neat how that works btw. He regenerates it as a stronger metal version, then when he powers down, its back to normal flesh and bone again. Makes me wonder how much power it would take for him to go full colossus. As for him getting angry, its probably a lot like succubi and sex. They cant just diddle themselves to get a good meal, but it probably helps that they are into the act as well.