Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[The Glyphstone]

Speaking of mind control, was Maxima's protection/resistance to such addressed at some point? I feel like it might have come up in the Twilight Council arc, if not elsewhere. Sydney is too genre-savvy to not bring it up somehow.

[Traab]

Speaking of mind control, was Maxima's protection/resistance to such addressed at some point? I feel like it might have come up in the Twilight Council arc, if not elsewhere. Sydney is too genre-savvy to not bring it up somehow.

I dont think it was ever addressed. If anyone but her even noticed the robot tried a mind whammy, stunned max for all of a second, then got torn apart.

[Shining Wrath]

Out of 180 nations or so, I think story wise at least one of the small ones should have an uber-level super. So Lithuania or Monaco or Burkina Faso has a Maxima on their side, and their neighbors are nervous.

[The Glyphstone]

They bring up early on that for unknown reasons, developed nations are more likely to contain supers in the first place, and larger population was floated as one of the possible reasons.

[Shining Wrath]

They bring up early on that for unknown reasons, developed nations are more likely to contain supers in the first place, and larger population was floated as one of the possible reasons.

Maybe it's fluoridated water. Who knows? Which reminds me, this strip needs a Doctor Strangelove who intends there to be a worldwide cataclysm so that only the supers survive and breed a super race.

[Mechalich]

National population is not distributed anything like evenly. While there are roughly 190 countries (depending on how you count), the bottom one hundred all have a population of <10 million a piece. Grrlpower's super demographics are poorly known, but back in comic 204 it was claimed that the US had 'less than 30' combat capable supers, suggesting that supers run at below a 1 in 10 million frequency. Most smaller nations, therefore, are unlikely to have a combat-capable super at all, much less a really powerful one, and if there's only one 'Maxima-level' super per billion people, the world's little countries, with only a few hundred million people between them, are more likely than not to simply not have one at all.

[Keltest]

National population is not distributed anything like evenly. While there are roughly 190 countries (depending on how you count), the bottom one hundred all have a population of <10 million a piece. Grrlpower's super demographics are poorly known, but back in comic 204 it was claimed that the US had 'less than 30' combat capable supers, suggesting that supers run at below a 1 in 10 million frequency. Most smaller nations, therefore, are unlikely to have a combat-capable super at all, much less a really powerful one, and if there's only one 'Maxima-level' super per billion people, the world's little countries, with only a few hundred million people between them, are more likely than not to simply not have one at all.

Also worth considering is that Halo's, Dabbler's, and Maxima's powers are all extraterrestrial in origin, and theyre pretty inarguably the three most potent supers on the team when theyre paying attention. Its entirely possible that there are no supers on that level outside of the States at all.

[Ibrinar]

Hmm Dabbler only has normal powers for her species combined with tech doesn't she? If I am not misremembering that and she supposedly has fought maxima to a stand still that should strongly limit how much of a deterrent supers are to high tech species. Though dabbler is probably a badass normal for her species.

[Keltest]

Hmm Dabbler only has normal powers for her species combined with tech doesn't she? If I am not misremembering that and she supposedly has fought maxima to a stand still that should strongly limit how much of a deterrent supers are to high tech species. Though dabbler is probably a badass normal for her species.

Dabbler and Max were presumably trying not to kill each other. Take that away and its unclear what would happen.

[Traab]

Hmm Dabbler only has normal powers for her species combined with tech doesn't she? If I am not misremembering that and she supposedly has fought maxima to a stand still that should strongly limit how much of a deterrent supers are to high tech species. Though dabbler is probably a badass normal for her species.

Yeah but she is also basically a protagonist level adventurer too. She has a mix of magic and tech at an advanced level so its not even like a "badass normal" She is a minmaxed D&D pc so you cant really compare the standard npcs to her. But yes, that does mean maxima is not unbeatable, just really really hard to beat. Or in dabblers case, force a stalemate by making her go turtle. And Mecha, thats right, the tiny countries have a tiny population, that just means the odds are stacked against them having a super duper super in their midst. Its not like its divided by population numbers like for every 10 million people you get a Hiro, for every 300 million you get a Maxima. So they could hit the 1 in a billion odds just by random chance. Of course it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if other nations went headhunting and offering Liechtenstein's omega super a comfy well paying job in their country.

[lord_khaine]

I dont think it was ever addressed. If anyone but her even noticed the robot tried a mind whammy, stunned max for all of a second, then got torn apart.

Considering how fast Max normally moves, then it should be registered it was Hiro, not Max, who finished the "robot" off.

Also worth considering is that Halo's, Dabbler's, and Maxima's powers are all extraterrestrial in origin, and theyre pretty inarguably the three most potent supers on the team when theyre paying attention. Its entirely possible that there are no supers on that level outside of the States at all.

Its also excedingly unlikely that all extraterrestial activity for some weird reason is centered around the states.

So if anything. This just increase the odds of some weird little state having a Catagory 9+ super.
Besides the on average 1 in 10 million combat super per population.

Also funny enough. If we just assume supers are ½ as likely in less developed countries.
Then as such Archon is one of the small players on the international stage. With a rather low assumed population of 30 combat supers to draw from.
Seen in comparison to the 50-100 some of the other national blocks are likely to have.

Of course it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if other nations went headhunting and offering Liechtenstein's omega super a comfy well paying job in their country.

Oh absolutely. The real question is if you -could- offer Lienchtensteins omega super enough money to make him/her considder betraying the interest of his home country.
Its something i only just came to considder myself recently xD

I mean lets pick a completely bonkers example to avoid it turning political.
If you (any you in the thread) were just a rank 8 super, how much money would Greenland need to offer you to come work for them permanently?
Thats a place with an almost guaranteed foreign culture, foreign climate, and foreign language.

And assuming your own nation is willing to pay you i dont know a million a month.

[Traab]

Considering how fast Max normally moves, then it should be registered it was Hiro, not Max, who finished the "robot" off.



Its also excedingly unlikely that all extraterrestial activity for some weird reason is centered around the states.

So if anything. This just increase the odds of some weird little state having a Catagory 9+ super.
Besides the on average 1 in 10 million combat super per population.

Also funny enough. If we just assume supers are ½ as likely in less developed countries.
Then as such Archon is one of the small players on the international stage. With a rather low assumed population of 30 combat supers to draw from.
Seen in comparison to the 50-100 some of the other national blocks are likely to have.



Oh absolutely. The real question is if you -could- offer Lienchtensteins omega super enough money to make him/her considder betraying the interest of his home country.
Its something i only just came to considder myself recently xD

I mean lets pick a completely bonkers example to avoid it turning political.
If you (any you in the thread) were just a rank 8 super, how much money would Greenland need to offer you to come work for them permanently?
Thats a place with an almost guaranteed foreign culture, foreign climate, and foreign language.

And assuming your own nation is willing to pay you i dont know a million a month.

It honestly depends on a lot. Such as what each nation wants to DO with my powers, what sort of freedoms I will have in either location, etc etc etc. And also, you have to consider that smaller nations have smaller budgets for bribing incentivizing their supers to stay. A story I read had an interesting setup. There was going to be this nation destroying calamity in japan, a guy contacted them, said he had the ability to basically seal it off for as long as you want. He charged 10 million US a day. Thats an absurd sum! Until you realize, that as far as national budgets go, 3.6 billion a year to keep your nation from being obliterated is actually totally doable and reasonable. Especially for wealthier nations. But Papua New Guinea PROBABLY couldnt swing that kinda funding. Whereas america could pencil it in as a small line item in their annual budget. So yeah, a bigger nation, such as one concentrating on establishing themselves as the super, super power in the world, would probably bend over backwards with all sorts of incentives if your power was valuable enough to them. And patriotism would be about the only tether said other nation has to stop it.

Ok, todays comic, yay! We finally got confirmation of what sydneys mom does. Im picturing her being headhunted by arianna in short order. An experienced entertainment based legal expert whose daughter is already a part of the program? Yes please! We already know that she has been pushing the merchandizing angle pretty hard (remember the collect them all joke back near the start of sydneys interaction with archon?) So having an expert able to tell them if their idea for a saturday morning cartoon will run afoul of various trademarks and copyrights would be handy.

[lord_khaine]

Well. That was kinda the point i wanted to make.
That big mega nations -only- have absurd amount of money. The stupid amount of money you honestly cant spend even if you try to.
I mean you didnt answer the question about how much money it would require for you to basically permanently give up your current pass and move to a completely alien place like Greenland.

For much nations rustling up 1 million per month isnt going to be hard. And after that point its growing harder to find stuff to spend money on thats meaningful.
And if not that. Then it certainly seems more likely for Supers to pick up contracts from goverments they culturally align with.

I mean. Who here could not find a foreign country they would rather move to for a 1 million salary over a 10 million salary in greenland?

Likely the same reason for why Archons decently sized budget wont matter to much.
Well that and jerk places will likely dont shy away from using family as hostages.

[The Glyphstone]

Its not like you couldn't go home to visit. What are they going to do, cancel your contract? It'd also be trivial to have said contract include a 'we will not ask you to invade Lichenstein' rider clause, solving the 'betrayal' problem. The tiny countries have way more than a lack of superheroes to explain their irrelevance on an international level; its easy to avoid acting against Lichenstein's interests when Lichenstein doesn't have any interests of significant note.

[lord_khaine]

Its not like you couldn't go home to visit. What are they going to do, cancel your contract? It'd also be trivial to have said contract include a 'we will not ask you to invade Lichenstein' rider clause, solving the 'betrayal' problem. The tiny countries have way more than a lack of superheroes to explain their irrelevance on an international level; its easy to avoid acting against Lichenstein's interests when Lichenstein doesn't have any interests of significant note.

Well. Then you answer this, how many additional millions per week would it take to make -you- move to Greenland?
Even if it meant being able to spend your vacation at home?

And would you still take that offer if a adjecant country speaking your language and sharing your culture would pay just 20% of that?

Like in the Lichenstein example. Why work for Archon when a German speaking country nearby would likely give a competative offer?
That would not involve moving to the other end of the world.

And its like that in general. Most of the places sharing culture with Archon are likely wealthy enough to keep its own supers.
Since it means not having to move to the other end of the world. Well and not working for a foreign power over your own country.
Why help another country become more relevant if you could do the same for your own home.

While of the countries not sharing a culture, it seems likely most are in the influence of another power wealthy enough to field a competing bid.
A power who share a larger degree of culture, values and language.

Certainly, i find it very unlikely Archon would be able to poach supers from the regions where Maxima has been murdering supers or destroying buildings.

[Shining Wrath]

Some people are motivated by things other than money. The Coast Guardsmen who lower themselves to sinking vessels in serious storms to save the crews? There isn't enough money in the world to do that. Read up on the people who have won Congressional Medals of Honor and realize those people probably didn't earn $25 an hour.

Then I remind everyone of what Machiavelli had to say about mercenaries vice your own citizens.

For example, let's say China wanted to poach Vehemence. I doubt he'd turn down lots of money, but he's going to want other things - like lots of vitamin V. China could arrange that, but do you trust him? What if Deus comes along and offers more chances to fight people, but slightly less money?

[halfeye]

Its not like you couldn't go home to visit. What are they going to do, cancel your contract? It'd also be trivial to have said contract include a 'we will not ask you to invade Lichenstein' rider clause, solving the 'betrayal' problem. The tiny countries have way more than a lack of superheroes to explain their irrelevance on an international level; its easy to avoid acting against Lichenstein's interests when Lichenstein doesn't have any interests of significant note.

The bigger problem with the "supers per million of population" is that the USA isn't very populous. China and India are both verging on a billion, Russia is as populous as the USA, and the EU is bigger than both, though nothing like as homogenous. If the population of the USA is 350 million, and the world population is 7 billion, if number of supers depends on population, then for every 1 super in the USA, there will be 19 in the rest of the world. The dollar may sort of rule the world, but in terms of population the USA isn't all that.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah thats basically the crux of my argument for why Archon as such should only be a minor player on the international stage.
Barring of course blatant favoritism from the author

and the EU is bigger than both, though nothing like as homogenous

I dont even thing the EU is noticeably less homogenous than any other world power?
Well it does have a lot more national languages. But i think basically everywhere has english as secondary.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Then I remind everyone of what Machiavelli had to say about mercenaries vice your own citizens.

Something something, spinny blade wall?

:P

Also, heh. Nice claymore hairdo. Sydney continues to find new and exciting ways to endanger everyone around her. :)

[Max_Killjoy]

Today's strip with Sidney and her father barely having a clue as to what "Mrs Scoville" does... is one of those moments when I have to remind myself that this is a slapstick / goofball comedy.

Sheesh.

[Traab]

The bigger problem with the "supers per million of population" is that the USA isn't very populous. China and India are both verging on a billion, Russia is as populous as the USA, and the EU is bigger than both, though nothing like as homogenous. If the population of the USA is 350 million, and the world population is 7 billion, if number of supers depends on population, then for every 1 super in the USA, there will be 19 in the rest of the world. The dollar may sort of rule the world, but in terms of population the USA isn't all that.

The US is still in the top 5 population nation on earth. In fact, its ranked third. Russia is 9th with less than half the population of america. I suppose if you count all the nations in the EU as one that puts america overall at 4th. Yes there are 19 supers worldwide for every 1 in archon, but how many are in allied or neutral nations? Honestly, I cant even begin to guess the accurate ratio of american or allied supers versus "problem" nations as thats probably a doctoral thesis on political science to trace out the labyrinthine web of alliances, conditional agreements, and cooperative arrangements full of "it depends" setups where the numbers change depending on which country is considered the issue.

[Mechalich]

In a scenario in which superpowers suddenly became real the US would likely massively expedite the immigration of supers, and emigration of supers from authoritarian states to the US would be substantial and help the US punch significantly above its population weight (this would hold for several EU nations, Australia, and Canada as well). Within the comic itself we actually have an example of this, in that Deus is employing a number of supers vastly in excess of what the 10-15 million people his fragment of the DRC actually contains would have on its own.

[lord_khaine]

The US is still in the top 5 population nation on earth. In fact, its ranked third. Russia is 9th with less than half the population of america. I suppose if you count all the nations in the EU as one that puts america overall at 4th. Yes there are 19 supers worldwide for every 1 in archon, but how many are in allied or neutral nations? Honestly, I cant even begin to guess the accurate ratio of american or allied supers versus "problem" nations as thats probably a doctoral thesis on political science to trace out the labyrinthine web of alliances, conditional agreements, and cooperative arrangements full of "it depends" setups where the numbers change depending on which country is considered the issue.

But if European Archon has twice as many supers as USA Archon. Who is it then thats allied to whom. The initial claim was as such just that Archon would only be a minor player on the international stage due to low population.
Not that it would be friendless.

In a scenario in which superpowers suddenly became real the US would likely massively expedite the immigration of supers, and emigration of supers from authoritarian states to the US would be substantial and help the US punch significantly above its population weight (this would hold for several EU nations, Australia, and Canada as well). Within the comic itself we actually have an example of this, in that Deus is employing a number of supers vastly in excess of what the 10-15 million people his fragment of the DRC actually contains would have on its own.

Thats the bit i presented several arguments against a little earlier.
And i doubt the USA (or EU/australia) would be able to poach a noticeable amount of supers from anywhere.

Firstly we saw that seemingly no amount of money could move people here to Greenland.

Secondly supers are going to form the absolute top tier in authorian states when it comes to priviliges.
Likely to a degree where you could see said states poaching a few super from Archon by offering better perks (like not having to listen to Maxima rant).

Thirdly its going to be an absolute pain moving to somewhere that dont speak your language or share your cultural values.

Fourthly. If you as a tier 8 super (Max is 9, Hiro 7 on official cast page) join Archon your going to be second fiddle to Max.
If you join as a tier 7 super your likely going to become fifth at best, ending after Max, Dabbler, Hiro and Halo.
Thats really good motivation for instead picking a smaller squad where you would be the star. Not just a face among many.

And all these things combined is why i dont think there will be a noticeable immigration of supers.
There will be some of course. I dont think much more than 10% shift or so. Not something that matters on the international scale.

[Traab]

But if European Archon has twice as many supers as USA Archon. Who is it then thats allied to whom. The initial claim was as such just that Archon would only be a minor player on the international stage due to low population.
Not that it would be friendless.



Thats the bit i presented several arguments against a little earlier.
And i doubt the USA (or EU/australia) would be able to poach a noticeable amount of supers from anywhere.

Firstly we saw that seemingly no amount of money could move people here to Greenland.

Secondly supers are going to form the absolute top tier in authorian states when it comes to priviliges.
Likely to a degree where you could see said states poaching a few super from Archon by offering better perks (like not having to listen to Maxima rant).

Thirdly its going to be an absolute pain moving to somewhere that dont speak your language or share your cultural values.

Fourthly. If you as a tier 8 super (Max is 9, Hiro 7 on official cast page) join Archon your going to be second fiddle to Max.
If you join as a tier 7 super your likely going to become fifth at best, ending after Max, Dabbler, Hiro and Halo.
Thats really good motivation for instead picking a smaller squad where you would be the star. Not just a face among many.

And all these things combined is why i dont think there will be a noticeable immigration of supers.
There will be some of course. I dont think much more than 10% shift or so. Not something that matters on the international scale.

You could say the same thing about america and its military power in the real world compared to other nations and such. Despite only having a population of 360 million america is still ranked as one of, if not the most powerful militaries on earth for both quantity and quality. There is more to relative power than national population. Now, on super immigration, honestly, im not sure what i would do if an offer was made. On the one hand, my personality matters, do i want to be the top dog in the yard and be the ace of my tiny nations tiny military? Or would I rather be content being one elite among many in a larger force where im not the one who has to be in charge or relied on to be the single line of defense? How about what i would be expected to do? Should I join a nation known for aggression and deal with the fact that I will be used as a bludgeon to keep neighbors under control? Or would I like to work with a nation where im primarily going to be defense and protect my home? Its not as simple as "Omg pay me 50 million and I move" There is a lot more to it. So you cant just declare victory because you werent buried under a chorus of "Oh heck yeah im ready to move right now!" type responses.

As someone else pointed out, Deus has shown that its hardly difficult to recruit supers from all over the place to follow your orders, and indeed he probably has more supers on his payroll than several smaller nations combined. That alone proves that headhunting is likely a lucrative field to work in, and its only complicated by the fact that its nations doing it instead of individuals.

[Shining Wrath]

I think we're in violent agreement here. To wit:

• Everyone agrees that different people have different motivations - money, fame, respect
• I think we all agree that supers in a nation are not directly proportional to population - it seems to be a little more complicated
• Some of the most powerful ArcSwat members are tech-driven in whole or part - Maxima's geode, Halo's orbs, and of course Dabbler is not a human super at all
• We do know Deus has been able to recruit at least some supers to work for him, but not how he induced them to join him
• It is at least possible that some supers would find themselves in a place where their talents were not welcomed by their government, due to religion or fear of anyone having power that wasn't under the autocrat's thumb

Therefore, it does happen that a super moves to a different country, but we don't have enough information to predict how often that would happen.

In particular, we don't know if supers are psychologically different from ordinary people. Their physiology is clearly different, so does that imply at least a possibility of differences in the brain that would affect decision making? For one example, Halo's five bodies with one mind has got to be a bit of a challenge to modern psychology. Do all 5 brains have equal amounts of dopamine and serotonin and the like all the time? We've already seen scenes where one body was having sex and creating problems for the other bodies. Her brain chemistry has got to be wondrously complicated, and that might (should?) affect decision making.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, money is simply one of many metrics. Just to throw another wrench on the pile, what if a super has a family? They might be less likely to uproot their family and move to a new culture just for money, but someone might be more inclined to move if their kids grow up in the safety and stability of Greenland instead of, I dunno, East Strawmania.

Basically, you have to figure in and account for all the reasons a person might immigrate/emigrate, or choose not to, in the real world - then on top of that, add that they will be courted like sports stars or celebrities. And possibly threatened for the same reason, not all valuable supers are combat-capable and thus much more vulnerable to negative leverage instead of/alongside positive incentives. The dictatorship of East Strawmania might not be able to match Greenland in bidding for the services of a native Strawmanian super, but 'we will pay you lots of money if you work for us, and lock your parents in prison if you dont' is a powerful carrot-stick combination.

[Max_Killjoy]

Yeah, money is simply one of many metrics. Just to throw another wrench on the pile, what if a super has a family? They might be less likely to uproot their family and move to a new culture just for money, but someone might be more inclined to move if their kids grow up in the safety and stability of Greenland instead of, I dunno, East Strawmania.

Basically, you have to figure in and account for all the reasons a person might immigrate/emigrate, or choose not to, in the real world - then on top of that, add that they will be courted like sports stars or celebrities. And possibly threatened for the same reason, not all valuable supers are combat-capable and thus much more vulnerable to negative leverage instead of/alongside positive incentives. The dictatorship of East Strawmania might not be able to match Greenland in bidding for the services of a native Strawmanian super, but 'we will pay you lots of money if you work for us, and lock your parents in prison if you dont' is a powerful carrot-stick combination.

The stick method becomes less useful the more powerful the super is.

Who wants to be the general trying to explain to El Presidente that Omega Girl, the galactic-class quantum manipulator, is done trashing the country's secret police and military, and is now heading for the Presidential Palace... because he threatened her parents and little brother?

[Rakaydos]

The stick method becomes less useful the more powerful the super is.

Who wants to be the general trying to explain to El Presidente that Omega Girl, the galactic-class quantum manipulator, is done trashing the country's secret police and military, and is now heading for the Presidential Palace... because he threatened her parents and little brother?

There's nothing at ALL threatening about giving the super's family the best educations in East Strawmania, at the presidential palace. And they need to be protected from the agents of West Strawmania, given how pissed off you made them after that LAST mission...

[Max_Killjoy]

There's nothing at ALL threatening about giving the super's family the best educations in East Strawmania, at the presidential palace. And they need to be protected from the agents of West Strawmania, given how pissed off you made them after that LAST mission...

I don't think Omega Girl agrees...

[lord_khaine]

You could say the same thing about america and its military power in the real world compared to other nations and such. Despite only having a population of 360 million america is still ranked as one of, if not the most powerful militaries on earth for both quantity and quality.

See this is the topic i dodged around like the plague to avoid the thread getting locked xD

So you cant just declare victory because you werent buried under a chorus of "Oh heck yeah im ready to move right now!" type responses.

Actually i think i can. When money was not enough to make people move to an absolutely middle of nowhere place. Where its basically guaranteed you wont do much besides scare off polar bears :P

As someone else pointed out, Deus has shown that its hardly difficult to recruit supers from all over the place to follow your orders, and indeed he probably has more supers on his payroll than several smaller nations combined. That alone proves that headhunting is likely a lucrative field to work in, and its only complicated by the fact that its nations doing it instead of individuals.

I will point out that a) Deus has author level plot support. And b) that its likely easier for a private megacorp to hire supers from another state than it is for a rival country.

Therefore, it does happen that a super moves to a different country, but we don't have enough information to predict how often that would happen.

Well if it happens of sufficiently random causes then it will cancel out xD

Basically, you have to figure in and account for all the reasons a person might immigrate/emigrate, or choose not to, in the real world - then on top of that, add that they will be courted like sports stars or celebrities. And possibly threatened for the same reason, not all valuable supers are combat-capable and thus much more vulnerable to negative leverage instead of/alongside positive incentives. The dictatorship of East Strawmania might not be able to match Greenland in bidding for the services of a native Strawmanian super, but 'we will pay you lots of money if you work for us, and lock your parents in prison if you dont' is a powerful carrot-stick combination.

Well also, while the East Strawmanian Emperor might not be able to match the economic offer of Greenland after it starts to mine its natural wealth, then it can likely also offer all sorts of vices the more idealistic government of Greenland has forbidden. Girls. Boys. Drugs. Puppies. Being allowed to drive while drunk.

And to further muddle the topic, the democratic West Strawmania might offer a lesser economic incentive, but a chance to become a hero for the entire Strawmanian people. As opposed to being remembered as the sellout who moved to Greenland.

Anyway. The point of view i tried to champion is mostly, that i find it unlikely National hero capacity will shift enough from immigration to compensate from population size.
For all the above mentioned reasons. With i guess a few outliers created by people like Deus.