OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

[Oxenstierna]

How would you retcon Star Wars to make more sense? At the moment I'm thinking of an 'Over here you use the force. In Soviet Russia, force uses you.' A sort of reverse Jedi mind trick. Once you open yourself to 'use' the dark side you are flooded with the anger, fear, and hatred of millions. Cinematically I guess it would be more like taking a 'Temple of Doom' direction and need to be shown on screen with someone more 'weak minded' getting obviously turned by a sort-of mind control. Then the audience see that when their heroes are fighting the dark side, it's not as simple as just saying 'no'. Or: 'I don't think I'll kill my dad, abandon all my friends, and become your apprentice today. Thanks for the offer though'. Makes sense of Yoda's - 'once you start on the dark path' etc. and Obi-Wan's 'more machine than man': Vader would be a machine not only because of the armor, but also because he's being used as one (by the flow of the dark side itself). Or course, it follows the light side is more hope, dreams, and free will etc., so while power is available, it does need a strong will to summon. It wouldn't be my ideal choice for the force as it does take the available stories to that scarier place for the kids. But given where the various decisions have pitched things now, with motivation for e.g. Anakin and Ben Solo so unsatisfactorily developed... How would others do a re-do?

[Fyraltari]

Yes, you're absolutely right. I should add 'invoke a melancholic sense of things lost' to my effective uses of mystery list... It applies to the Entwives and the departure of the Elves from the world. As you say, people aren't really left pondering on the mystery.

There are no mystery for the Elves though, they leave because Middle-Earth is fated to belong to Men and so, the longer they stay the more they are diminished.

In my opinion it's more a closure: they're confirmed as gone as the world moves on. The nameless things in the dark would already be covered by the typical horror use - there are some things best left buried. It's tricky to know with some of Tolkien's things whether he left them deliberately mysterious; rather than being simply unfinished or skipped over to work on stories elsewhere. A common problem with world building is where to stop. Easy to get carried away - stat out every farmer, have a sub-quest for every courtier! Somewhere I read Christopher Tolkien saying he used to bug his father about the rest of the wizards and their adventures. Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge would be able to say if they ever got put in notes, or if the Silmarillion and so on were his focus; rather than revisiting the third age.

Radagast is someone the Professor just outrigjt forgot about which is why of all the mysteries he is the one most likely to get people say "hang on, what about the Brown Wizard's disappearance? That was never explained."

As for the "where to stop" issue that wasn't a problem for the Professor, rather the opposite: what he wants to talk about (Dùnedain, Elves, Hobbit genealogy, the languages, ...) get extensive fleshing outs and everything elves (Orcs, Dwarves, other Men) get whatever he needs to get the plot moving and no more.

As for the Blue Wizards, they are never the focus of anything they are just described in texts pertaining to the whole order.

I guess these days the pressure to expand the 'franchise' by building off already popular characters and concepts would be unbearable... get your Blue Wizard vs. Gandalf the Grey deathmatch action-figure-set here (hobbits sold separately)!

That's more a product of long-term shared writings than anything if you take over the writing of something you used to enjoy as a fan, it's only natural to want to make more stories involving your favorite characters.

The "spectacle over substance" issue is half the reason I was never interested in these Shadow of Mordor/War games as they don't care what the books were about just making you fight cool ennemies.
The other half is the butchering of the established lore but that's not as bad a crime (even though it still pisses me off).

[KorvinStarmast]

How would others do a re-do?

1. Don't make the prequels. (Ep 1 through 3)
2. Make Rogue One.
3. ???? (something excellent with Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson and Natalie Portman placed in time after Return of the Jedi)
4. Profit

[Peelee]

1. Don't make the prequels. (Ep 1 through 3)
2. Make Rogue One.
3. ???? (something excellent with Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson and Natalie Portman placed in time after Return of the Jedi)
4. Profit

2. While I like Rogue One, I do roll my eyes at the weakness being by design. Because it's a terrible design. "Hey, I made it so the station blows itself up. All you need to do is hit this impossible shot!" C'mon. The Death Star being invincible unless it was specifically sabotaged is worse than just letting it have a very difficult-to-find weakness. Especially when that sabotage is as ridiculous as it was.
1. Prequels were a good idea. The execution of them was the terrible part.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Starting with casting Jake Lloyd. He's not a bad actor, but if a significant piece of the plot requires the character to fit into an adult sized cockpit you should probably cast someone more adult sized.

[bunsen_h]

2. While I like Rogue One, I do roll my eyes at the weakness being by design. Because it's a terrible design. "Hey, I made it so the station blows itself up. All you need to do is hit this impossible shot!" C'mon. The Death Star being invincible unless it was specifically sabotaged is worse than just letting it have a very difficult-to-find weakness. Especially when that sabotage is as ridiculous as it was.

I like the idea of the weakness being by design. It justifies the long-standing problem: why wasn't that weakness designed out in the first place? For me, it was like the bit near the end of ST:Enterprise's last season in which the changes to the Klingon foreheads were explained: "Woo-hoo, they actually came up with an answer for that one!"

1. Prequels were a good idea. The execution of them was the terrible part.

I agree.

[dancrilis]

I like the idea of the weakness being by design. It justifies the long-standing problem: why wasn't that weakness designed out in the first place?

I think we can let the architect behind the exaust ports on the Death Star cover why this 'weakness' was not eliminated in the planning phase.

[Petrocorus]

1. Prequels were a good idea. The execution of them was the terrible part.

I kinda agree with this, though i don't think the execution was that terrible.
Even episode 2, which is probably the worst one IMHO, had some very good scenes. In fact, most of what does not involved Padmé and Anakin is good. The problem is that Padmé and Anakin make half of the movie. It wouldn't have taken that much rewriting to make it good.

For me, it was like the bit near the end of ST:Enterprise's last season in which the changes to the Klingon foreheads were explained: "Woo-hoo, they actually came up with an answer for that one!"

I did like those episodes, but frankly, explaining this was not really necessary.

I think we can let the architect behind the exaust ports on the Death Star cover why this 'weakness' was not eliminated in the planning phase.

Spoiler: Video

Show

I completely agree with that guy.

[Peelee]

I like the idea of the weakness being by design. It justifies the long-standing problem: why wasn't that weakness designed out in the first place?

It pretty much was, though. It's an exhaust port, so it's got to exhaust. Barely two meters, largely considered an impossible shot. Even then, they ray shielded it. And put it in a trench surrounded by gobloads of turbolasers, on a station equipped with TIE fighters and an incredibly impressive point defense system.

They designed it out pretty well. Just not well enough, which is perfectly fine. If they were invincible, wouldn't be much of a movie. And even with the rebel's last ditch hail mary, it still took a space wizard using the Force to hit it. Which wouldn't even have worked if Vader's wingmate hadn't panicked and knocked him off course.

It quite literally took magic powers and extreme luck to make the shot. Which is good for a weakness they happened to discover and unbelievably terrible for a planned sabotage weakness.

It being by design is insane. It's laughably incompetent sabotage. It makes no sense. It's like saying, "hey, I put in a win button for you. All you need to do is fly in a specific direction by flapping your arms in a tornado while managing to not get hit by any of the debris also caught in the tornado, and then you can press it."

[Petrocorus]

It pretty much was, though. It's an exhaust port, so it's got to exhaust. Barely two meters, largely considered an impossible shot. Even then, they ray shielded it. And put it in a trench surrounded by gobloads of turbolasers, on a station equipped with TIE fighters and an incredibly impressive point defense system.

They designed it out pretty well. Just not well enough, which is perfectly fine. If they were invincible, wouldn't be much of a movie. And even with the rebel's last ditch hail mary, it still took a space wizard using the Force to hit it. Which wouldn't even have worked if Vader's wingmate hadn't panicked and knocked him off course.

It quite literally took magic powers and extreme luck to make the shot. Which is good for a weakness they happened to discover and unbelievably terrible for a planned sabotage weakness.

It being by design is insane. It's laughably incompetent sabotage. It makes no sense. It's like saying, "hey, I put in a win button for you. All you need to do is fly in a specific direction by flapping your arms in a tornado while managing to not get hit by any of the debris also caught in the tornado, and then you can press it."

Erso's designed weakness was specifically about the chain reaction that would happen if any explosion hit the core.
He doesn't talk at all about the exhaust port.
I don't think he had any chance to design a way for someone to hit the core with an explosion. He probably though about a more classical commando sabotage.

The exhaust port plan was the Rebels' idea and probably the only thing they could come up with in such short notice.

[Peelee]

Erso's designed weakness was specifically about the chain reaction that would happen if any explosion hit the core.
He doesn't talk at all about the exhaust port.
I don't think he had any chance to design a way for someone to hit the core with an explosion. He probably though about a more classical commando sabotage.

The exhaust port plan was the Rebels' idea and probably the only thing they could come up with in such short notice.

The core is, well, a core. It's surrounded by a literal-small-moon's worth of material and armor, with ostensibly no way to get any sort of explosion there (at least, not through his own means).

Again, his sabotage is ridiculous and required a miracle to activate.

[Goblin_Priest]

Furthermore, blowing up a reactor is kind of a common trope, even without sabotage. If you are going to want to unleash such considerable power, you'll probably need very reactive materials, and large quantities of them.

[Fyraltari]

The core is, well, a core. It's surrounded by a literal-small-moon's worth of material and armor, with ostensibly no way to get any sort of explosion there (at least, not through his own means).

Again, his sabotage is ridiculous and required a miracle to activate.

That's probably why petrocorus mentionned commando sabotage. The Alliance took on the Death Star in battle because they were i' dire straights since somebody thought it was a great idea to lead the Empire to their base. Absent this urgency, they would have most likely attempted to infiltrate the Death Star technical crew to sabotage the reactor from the inside.

Galen was under surveillance during the events of Rogue One and was working with a whole team of (presumably loyal) Imperial architects and weapon designers, if he was to sneak in a weakness it had to be subtle enough that no-one would notice which means it couldn't be easily exploitable.

[Peelee]

That's probably why petrocorus mentionned commando sabotage. The Alliance took on the Death Star in battle because they were i' dire straights since somebody thought it was a great idea to lead the Empire to their base. Absent this urgency, they would have most likely attempted to infiltrate the Death Star technical crew to sabotage the reactor from the inside.

Yes, the Rebels would have had to infiltrate the Death Star to sabotage the reactor from the inside (which is an insane plan) after somehow stealing the plans for the Death Star from Citadel Tower on the imperial stronghold planet of Scarif (which is an insane plan that Galen explicitly expected them to do).

Yeah, I'm not really seeing how this sabotage is any less insane or how Galen's plan is any less ridiculous. Again, these are good as desparate, last-ditch hail marys. They are abjectly terrible as planned sabotage.

Galen was under surveillance during the events of Rogue One and was working with a whole team of (presumably loyal) Imperial architects and weapon designers, if he was to sneak in a weakness it had to be subtle enough that no-one would notice which means it couldn't be easily exploitable.

I agree. Which, I have to note, is why the writers should not have gone that route. Nobody questioned why the reactor core being destroyed would destroy the entire station. Some people questioned the exhaust port, but as I previously showed, such concerns were unwarranted. The movie took an issue that didn't exist and somehow made it make significantly less sense. It's a good movie based on a bad premise.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, the Rebels would have had to infiltrate the Death Star to sabotage the reactor from the inside (which is an insane plan)

Is it? The Death Star is huge, its crew must number in thousands, if not dozen of thousands, a crew that need to be cycled in and out and fed and who knows what else. I'm no espionnage expert but it seems like out of that crowd there's got to be people that could be impersonated, bribed or blackmailed into doing the Alliance's work. Case in point: Bodhi.

after somehow stealing the plans for the Death Star from Citadel Tower on the imperial stronghold planet of Scarif (which is an insane plan that Galen explicitly expected them to do).

Again, what's so insane about that? Infiltrating Imperial assets and mounting lightning assaults is what the Alliance does. In the movie a crew went rogue and barged in with no plan leading to an all-out assault on the facility resulting in a blood bath but Galen had no way to guess this was going to happen this way. If he had gotten his message through earlier and they'd have had the time t orpepare the Alliance could ahve pulled this off with less damage.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing how this sabotage is any less insane or how Galen's plan is any less ridiculous. Again, these are good as desparate, last-ditch hail marys. They are abjectly terrible as planned sabotage.

That's apple to oranges: the last-ditch hail maries are not comparable to planned operations. Blowing up the Death Star with a fighter squadron, infiltrating a facility with no prior knowledge of its inner workings and a stolen freighter, these are terrible odds because they are unplanned hail-maries. But just because a thing is heavily fortified doesn't mean it's infiltration or sabotage proof.

I agree. Which, I have to note, is why the writers should not have gone that route. Nobody questioned why the reactor core being destroyed would destroy the entire station. Some people questioned the exhaust port, but as I previously showed, such concerns were unwarranted.

What's odder really is that the Rebels found a witness with little-to-no time to go over the plan and that an imperial officer found it too simply by looking at the attack patterns but this didn't came up during the design phase. It's not an important mistake by any means, though, barely a nitpick.
That said, if I were to personnally nitpick the trench run, I'd nitpick the trench. Why did they need to fly that trench, rather than fly directly to the exhaust port facing it, again?

The movie took an issue that didn't exist and somehow made it make significantly less sense. It's a good movie based on a bad premise.

It really doesn't though. It's unnecessary but it only makes the issue worse if you want it to. If I were to look for flaws in Rogue One it would rather be that Jyn and Cassian's arcs feel rather rushed.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Honestly, if I was writing the sabotage arc in R1 I'd probably have it that Galen had managed to arrange for all the safeties to be non-operable but hadn't managed to get beyond that before plot happened. The trip to Scarif is thus divisive because of the face off between the factions who want the plans to expose the Peace Moon Death Star to the Senate and the factions who want it taken out instantly and need the plans for the specifics.

[Peelee]

Is it? The Death Star is huge, its crew must number in thousands, if not dozen of thousands, a crew that need to be cycled in and out and fed and who knows what else. I'm no espionnage expert but it seems like out of that crowd there's got to be people that could be impersonated, bribed or blackmailed into doing the Alliance's work.

[citation needed]

The Rebel Alliance had never been able to do anything of the sort on anywhere near that scale. If you know of any stories where they had, please, I eagerly await to be regaled. That is simply not something the Rebels could conceivably do - it would be ridiculous and foolhardy. Again, planned ridiculous-and-foolhardy is bad. Emergency-hail-mary-ridiculous-and-foolhardy is fine.

Case in point: Bodhi.

Bodhi's job was to deliver a message while he was already defecting. That is on a whole 'nother level from what you're imagining (which, again, is nothing remotely near what the Rebels had ever done before).

Again, what's so insane about that? Infiltrating Imperial assets and mounting lightning assaults is what the Alliance does.

Again, [citation needed].

And hey, even if we say, "yeah, sure, that's what they do," this isn't just an Imperial asset. This is a base with multiple Star Destroyers in permanent patrolling orbit with a planetary shield that controls every ship that gets in and gets out. They were able to do it in Rogue One solely because they had a freshly-defected pilot flying a freshly stolen ship with fresh codes, and it still nearly failed until a high-ranking fleet officer hijacked a significant portion of the Rebel fleet against Rebel command's wishes to save them. Luck after luck after luck after luck. Which, again, is perfectly fine when it's seat-of-the-pants, shot-in-a-million hopes. And not when that's the plan.

Let me try to put it a more familiar way. You don't save up your paychecks with the plan of walking into a casino, going to the roulette table, and putting it all green. That's a stupid plan. That's what you do if someone is holding a gun to your family's head unless you can get 35 times the amount of money you have on hand within the next minute. Because it's insane otherwise.

It really doesn't though. It's unnecessary but it only makes the issue worse if you want it to.

As demonstrated, it really does, and it makes the issue worse whether I want it or not. I, in fact, do not want it to be stupid. I was not fortunate enough to receive a non-stupid plot point. I am saddened by this. Like, you can say that betting double zero is a good plan all day long, it ain't ever gonna be the case.

[Goblin_Priest]

Stop ruining my enjoyment of R1. :P

[Peelee]

Stop ruining my enjoyment of R1. :P

I still love it and it's still a good movie. I just wish it was better in very specific parts.

Kind of like ROTJ.

[Petrocorus]

I still love it and it's still a good movie. I just wish it was better in very specific parts.

It's the very best movie of Disney Star Wars.
But i agree it has its flaws.

[WanderingMist]

I don't understand what this means?

A bit late replying, but think of like, Buck Rodgers, Spaceman Spiff, those kinds of things. The old sci-fi serials.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the Star Wars debate that's popped up, I think The Rise of Skywalker really did The Last Jedi a huge disservice by undermining its message of "It doesn't matter if you're no one". Also, "The Force Awakens" most definitely leaned way too much on repeating A New Hope basically beat-for-beat.

[dancrilis]

I still love it and it's still a good movie. I just wish it was better in very specific parts.

Kind of like ROTJ.

Curious about what you regard as the flaws in ROTJ were.

I don't think there is anything on the level of the Death Star was deliberately sabotaged, even if I am dubious about making Leia Luke's sister (and some of the Ewok elements) but curious about which ones you are thinking of?

[Tvtyrant]

Possibly hot-take: Movies are not improved by a lack of plot holes. Eliminating all of the Star Wars plot holes wouldn't make the movies any more enjoyable.

[WanderingMist]

Possibly hot-take: Movies are not improved by a lack of plot holes. Eliminating all of the Star Wars plot holes wouldn't make the movies any more enjoyable.

There's a big difference between 3 plotholes and 30.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Plot holes aren't generally an issue. The plot equivalent of the Grand Canyon is.

As for my problems with ROTJ, besides the Luke/Leia twins thing (IMO an attempt to break up the romantic triangle without killing someone) there really should've been lots more dead Ewoks on screen. Forest glades choked with the bodies of the primitives the 'heroes' decided to throw against a professional military for a distraction.

[Petrocorus]

There's a big difference between 3 plotholes and 30.

Plot holes aren't generally an issue. The plot equivalent of the Grand Canyon is.

I think the problem also is in the nature of the plot holes and how relevant it is to the plot itself.
30 minor plot holes on secondary parts of the plot can be less damaging than 1 big plot holes on the core part of the plot.

If the plot needs the characters to do X to get Y that they need to do Z, then, if the why they need Y to do Z is badly explained, the audience can go long with it. If doing X don't drive them to get Y and they somehow magically get Y, it is a much bigger problem.

As for my problems with ROTJ, besides the Luke/Leia twins thing (IMO an attempt to break up the romantic triangle without killing someone) there really should've been lots more dead Ewoks on screen. Forest glades choked with the bodies of the primitives the 'heroes' decided to throw against a professional military for a distraction.

I tend to agree but i can see why Lucas didn't do it in a film which is directed at an audience which half of it are kids.

[Peelee]

Curious about what you regard as the flaws in ROTJ were.

I don't think there is anything on the level of the Death Star was deliberately sabotaged, even if I am dubious about making Leia Luke's sister (and some of the Ewok elements) but curious about which ones you are thinking of?

In order:

[I hate this and it's the worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars IMO]

1.) Leia and Luke being siblings. Much more specifically, the fact that they use this to claim that she is capable of using the Force solely because she is part of that family, which started the whole "you must be born strong in the Force" thing, which I hate with an unbridled passion because it means there is a class of people who are just born better than others. Neither of the previous two allude to this idea in any way, and when making them, Lucas actually spoke the exact opposite belief. But RotJ made being born better canon.

[I mildly dislike these but they don't lessen how I feel about the movie]

B.) Second Death Star. Precursor to "another Death Star but it shoots moar lazers and farther" and then "a fleet of star-destroyer-shaped Death Stars lulz". As much as I hate Abrams for having absolutely zero originality, Lucas had no originality first.

iii.) Whatever the hell the "plan" was at Jabba's palace. Also, cutting the scene of Luke building his lightsaber.

I tend to agree but i can see why Lucas didn't do it in a film which is directed at an audience which half of it are kids.

I say this every chance I get, because it is the single most true criticism anyone has ever said about Star Wars:

George Lucas said, "I have a successful film series in which space wizards fight each other with laser swords while their friends shoot lasers at each other and spaceships fly around also shooting lasers. Now, how can I make kids like it?"

It's the very best movie of Disney Star Wars.

Oh, no contest.

[Petrocorus]

[I hate this and it's the worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars IMO]

1.) Leia and Luke being siblings. Much more specifically, the fact that they use this to claim that she is capable of using the Force solely because she is part of that family, which started the whole "you must be born strong in the Force" thing, which I hate with an unbridled passion because it means there is a class of people who are just born better than others. Neither of the previous two allude to this idea in any way, and when making them, Lucas actually spoke the exact opposite belief. But RotJ made being born better canon.

I kinda see your point, but i'm under the impression that ANH and ESB had already established the Force was stronger with some people than others

I say this every chance I get, because it is the single most true criticism anyone has ever said about Star Wars:

George Lucas said, "I have a successful film series in which space wizards fight each other with laser swords while their friends shoot lasers at each other and spaceships fly around also shooting lasers. Now, how can I make kids like it?"

That may be me, but i don't see how kids could not like this.

[Goblin_Priest]

Curious about what you regard as the flaws in ROTJ were.

I don't think there is anything on the level of the Death Star was deliberately sabotaged, even if I am dubious about making Leia Luke's sister (and some of the Ewok elements) but curious about which ones you are thinking of?

We've had one death star, yes, but what about a second death star?

[Peelee]

I kinda see your point, but i'm under the impression that ANH and ESB had already established the Force was stronger with some people than others

Fun activity! Watch the first two movies again but try to imagine the Jedi as akin to martial arts masters in old King fu movies, and then see if anything contradicts this belief. Spoiler alert, nothing will.

The only two lines that even come close are "The Force is strong with this one/him", which can indicate that it's stronger in those who receive training or that he is naturally gifted (which, I should note, is normal variance, and not "born better". Like, Muggsy Bogues wasn't ever going to be an all-time best scorer, but dude could still play in the NBA, despite being 5'3/1.6m). Lucas even gave an interview around '81 where he said a Jedi was like a yoga master, anyone could do it but few had the resolve. Again, kind of like martial arts masters in old King fu movies. The main players all trained to that level but the average villager didn't, despite being fully capable of doing so.

That may be me, but i don't see how kids could not like this.

Thats the point.