OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

[bunsen_h]

Honestly, I'll be surprised if there's a consensus on anything sci-fi-related, let alone the definitions of the genre(s). I definitely use those terms very differently to how MoiMagnus apparently uses them (I would argue that Star Trek is the space opera), but what do I know? I am but a humble earthling.

First, on "SF" or "science fiction" vs. "sci-fi": originally, the latter was a term of opprobrium among fans, used by non-fans: "you read that sci-fi crap?". It then became used to distinguish "bad" stuff from "good" stuff: if "sci-fi" was the stuff that non-fans pointed at and laughed out of ignorance, then we could co-opt the term to refer to the stuff that was worth mockery. The distinction has faded in recent decades.

"Space opera" was originally used by analogy with "soap opera" to refer to ongoing serials. In part it implied the "ongoing"-ness, but those serials also often had the sense of scale and the grand themes of operas. E.E. "Doc" Smith's old "Lensman" series is considered "space opera": good vs. evil, and it builds in scope to galactic scale. (Its writing is very clunky by modern standards!) Some people refer to Lois McMaster Bujold's multiple-award-winning "Vorkosigan" series as "space opera" because it has some of that sense of scale and has gone on for about 20 books (depending on how you count some of the shorter works) over a couple of decades. Star Wars has the good vs. evil, and its musical structure is very operatic: each character has their leitmotif, which is woven into the visual stuff in a very traditional way by classical composers who know what they're doing... and yeah, ongoing serial. Star Trek... well, it's ongoing.

EDIT: But my impression is that Star Trek is thematically less strong than Star Wars.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Trek is still thematically very much Wagon Train in Space. So less space opera and more space western.

[bunsen_h]

Trek is still thematically very much Wagon Train in Space. So less space opera and more space western.

Trek leans towards "morally grey". The Federation, nominally the "good guys", have done some pretty crappy things. The recent series "Picard" shows some of the conflicts that have arisen when the Feds have behaved less than honourably. There were a lot of things I didn't like about that series, but I appreciated that story element: Picard's conflict of honour.

EDIT: Another old-timey distinction I should mention is "Trekker" vs. "Trekkie". The latter is what non-fans used to call us, and was considered derogatory in-group. "So, you're one of those Trekkies, huh?" We called ourselves "Trekkers". Again, the distinction has faded somewhat in recent decades. Largely, I think, because of the huge influx of Trek fans who don't have much contact with the old-timey fan community, and therefore haven't been brought up to know right from wrong.

[Goblin_Priest]

Imean, if y'all are trying to get me to be serious for a second (which I object to and think is a terrible idea), space opera is a subset of science fiction, as science fiction is typically characterized by the the setting requiring or heavily using technology beyond what we are capable of.

I dunno, Star Wars follows the model of the monomyth. It's an epic, that happens in space, but where space has really little importance. Nor being in the future: people still fight with swords, making it even more backwards than the present. It doesn't try to explain anything, stuff just happens, it's essentially "magic", when not pretty much literally.

Star Trek and sci-fi in general, imo, tries to be realistic of what could come to be. A lot of highly theoretical, but it's generally a big thought experiment on "what could be".

Classic trek also uses these scenarios to question how we should advance in the present. Moral investigations.

Recent movies in both franchists are just soulless money grabs though.

[Peelee]

Recent movies in both franchists are just soulless money grabs though.

J. J. Abrams sucks, you say? Why, I happen to agree!

[Riftwolf]

J. J. Abrams sucks, you say? Why, I happen to agree!

Why did I read this in Professor Farnsworths voice?

Also are we going to discuss the delineation between hard sci-fi and alt-history?

[Peelee]

Why did I read this in Professor Farnsworths voice?

I would like to have it on record, canonically, that this is the proper way to read all of my posts.

[Riftwolf]

I would like to have it on record, canonically, that this is the proper way to read all of my posts.

Unfortunately I can't sig this on my phone.

[Petrocorus]

Some people refer to Lois McMaster Bujold's multiple-award-winning "Vorkosigan" series as "space opera" because it has some of that sense of scale and has gone on for about 20 books (depending on how you count some of the shorter works) over a couple of decades.

I need to say McMaster Bulold's Vorkosigan saga is awesome and should definitely be something we should speak more often about.

[BarakDeathBlade]

J. J. Abrams sucks, you say? Why, I happen to agree!

With Jar Jar Abrams running both Star Wars and Star Trek, the differences reduce to:

1) Star Trek has colorful uniforms.

2) Star Trek has guard rails.

"Hey, Sid, do we really want this pit in the middle of the Emperor's Throne Room?"
"Where's it lead?"
"The main reactor in the center of the Death Star."
"Meh, what's the worst that could happen?"

[InvisibleBison]

2) Star Trek has guard rails.

"Hey, Sid, do we really want this pit in the middle of the Emperor's Throne Room?"
"Where's it lead?"
"The main reactor in the center of the Death Star."
"Meh, what's the worst that could happen?"

In fairness to Star Wars, I don't recall anyone ever falling down any of the various pits, canyons, crevasses, etc - at least, not without being shot first.

[WanderingMist]

I don't know what it is, but Star Wars just seems so much more vibrant than Star Trek. And of course, neither of them compare to the Raygun Gothic Space Dandy.

[Riftwolf]

I don't know what it is, but Star Wars just seems so much more vibrant than Star Trek. And of course, neither of them compare to the Raygun Gothic Space Dandy.

I'll say this about George Lucas; he knew worldbuilding and merch. His storytelling mightve been wide of the bat though.

Quite a bit of Star Treks world was built in after the fact, with constraints of 60s TV production dictating how things worked (like transporters and smooth Klingons)

[Peelee]

With Jar Jar Abrams running both Star Wars and Star Trek, the differences reduce to:

1) Star Trek has colorful uniforms.

2) Star Trek has guard rails.

"Hey, Sid, do we really want this pit in the middle of the Emperor's Throne Room?"
"Where's it lead?"
"The main reactor in the center of the Death Star."
"Meh, what's the worst that could happen?"

I love that the one example you picked was where they clearly had guard rails.

I don't know what it is, but Star Wars just seems so much more vibrant than Star Trek. And of course, neither of them compare to the Raygun Gothic Space Dandy.

Star Wars is a used universe. It's dirty. Star Trek is too clean. It's new, straight out of the package.

It's not something that screams at people, but it's incredibly distinctive.

[The MunchKING]

In fairness to Star Wars, I don't recall anyone ever falling down any of the various pits, canyons, crevasses, etc - at least, not without being shot first.

Well the Emperor got military press slammed, but it's the same basic concept. :p

[BarakDeathBlade]

I love that the one example you picked was where they clearly had guard rails.


Star Wars is a used universe. It's dirty. Star Trek is too clean. It's new, straight out of the package.

It's not something that screams at people, but it's incredibly distinctive.

Irony is like Goldy or Bronzy, but it's made of iron.

[Riftwolf]

Irony is like Goldy or Bronzy, but it's made of iron.

Irony and Pithy: both used to make helmety.

[Peelee]

Irony is like Goldy or Bronzy, but it's made of iron.

I'm 40% irony!

[BarakDeathBlade]

Irony and Pithy: both used to make helmety.

Don't kill Irony Dragons, they're goody. Actually, they're lawful-sarcastic.

EDIT: some of them are just awful-sarcastic, I think my Dragonblooded trait comes from them.

[Petrocorus]

And of course, neither of them compare to the Raygun Gothic Space Dandy.

I don't understand what this means?

[a_flemish_guy]

I dunno, Star Wars follows the model of the monomyth. It's an epic, that happens in space, but where space has really little importance. Nor being in the future: people still fight with swords, making it even more backwards than the present. It doesn't try to explain anything, stuff just happens, it's essentially "magic", when not pretty much literally.

Star Trek and sci-fi in general, imo, tries to be realistic of what could come to be. A lot of highly theoretical, but it's generally a big thought experiment on "what could be".

Classic trek also uses these scenarios to question how we should advance in the present. Moral investigations.

Recent movies in both franchists are just soulless money grabs though.

I thought rogue one was pretty good

[bunsen_h]

I dunno, Star Wars follows the model of the monomyth. It's an epic, that happens in space, but where space has really little importance. Nor being in the future: people still fight with swords, making it even more backwards than the present. It doesn't try to explain anything, stuff just happens, it's essentially "magic", when not pretty much literally.

Star Trek and sci-fi in general, imo, tries to be realistic of what could come to be. A lot of highly theoretical, but it's generally a big thought experiment on "what could be".

Classic trek also uses these scenarios to question how we should advance in the present. Moral investigations.

Recent movies in both franchists are just soulless money grabs though.

One of the things that I have really disliked in recent Trek series is what I call "magic matter". Someone presses a button (or otherwise activates things) and stuff just magically appears out of nowhere, unfolding out of itself, assembling into solid objects. They even used that in ST:Discovery, supposedly a prequel to ST:TOS, and IIRC not just on the ship with all of the Speshul Tech.

I need to say McMaster Bulold's Vorkosigan saga is awesome and should definitely be something we should speak more often about.

Also her other major series, the "Five Gods Universe", a fantasy work which is awesome in somewhat different ways. She's spending most of her time on that one these days. Those two series were the winners of the first two Hugo awards for best series..

[Goblin_Priest]

I enjoyed Rogue One too, the only thing from Disney which I liked. I did not watch the Mandalorian, though, so maybe that's good too. The sequel trilogy and Solo are garbage.

J. J. Abrams sucks, you say? Why, I happen to agree!

Oh, absolutely. I like how he praises himself for his "mystery boxes". That's just frigging lazy writing. Sure, sometimes, mystery and ambiguity can be intentional and good, but that's not what this guy is doing.

Why did I read this in Professor Farnsworths voice?

Also are we going to discuss the delineation between hard sci-fi and alt-history?

Well I'd say sci-fi writes history that is yet to happen, while alt-history re-writes history that already took place. Of course there can be overlap, but it's largely a question of when the story takes place. Sci-fi also tackles the impacts of technology on history, so if someone's writing a story that takes place in the near future and where technology hasn't changed, I'm not sure how we'd class that, but I also think that's pretty darn rare.

With Jar Jar Abrams running both Star Wars and Star Trek, the differences reduce to:

1) Star Trek has colorful uniforms.

2) Star Trek has guard rails.

"Hey, Sid, do we really want this pit in the middle of the Emperor's Throne Room?"
"Where's it lead?"
"The main reactor in the center of the Death Star."
"Meh, what's the worst that could happen?"

As has been pointed out, that's pretty funny that you mention one of the rare cases where Star Wars actually has railing.

I think the rule of thumb is: "Is Vader going to fight here?" If yes, it has a guard rail. If not, it doesn't.

I'll say this about George Lucas; he knew worldbuilding and merch. His storytelling mightve been wide of the bat though.

Quite a bit of Star Treks world was built in after the fact, with constraints of 60s TV production dictating how things worked (like transporters and smooth Klingons)

Not sure I'd say his storytelling is off the bat. The original movie follows the monomyth and was a great hit. TESB, on the other hand, veers way off expectations, with the main bad guy being the good guy's dad, and the bad guys winning. How often do you see the bad guys win a movie like that? Pretty rare. And yet, it's praised as many as the best movie of the franchise.

After that, he goes into ideas that are a bit less mainstream, but I don't think it makes them any worse. The ewoks are merch fodder, sure, but his intent was also to bring a great contrast between the might of the empire, and the lowliness of those who take them down. The politics and trade disputes of the prequels were based on real life events of the epoch and absolutely conjure a plausible scenario of the empire's inception and the fall of Anakin. He consciously made choices that he knew were like mainstream, like casting Anakin as a kid in Phantom Menace, because it made for a better story, and I agree with him. Anakin is whiny and annoying, but these are not story flaws, they are character flaws, and they are totally justified. A lot of the dialogue is clunky, and I totally agree with that claim... but also, a lot of the characters of the prequels are cloistered children, growing up in messed up social environments. Anakin is torn from his mother and raised to be a warrior-monk by complete strangers. Padmé is a teen queen. Neither really got to be kids, and to grow up normally. So maybe, yea, they say things that are a bit awkward at times. Why should every character always be a don juan that always have the perfect words at the perfect time? Real people aren't like that. If anything, Anakin didn't get enough whiny screen time. While it probably needed to be cut because it'd have mostly occurred between episodes 1 and 2, it feels like Anakin isn't shown *missing* his mother enough. The separation from his mother is meant to be important, but it's only brought up when he thinks his mother needs him, and not when he needs her. The oppressiveness of the jedi training was completely skipped, and probably should have been somehow included. But alas, trilogies only have 3 parts, not 4. To think of it, probably he should have made Anakin come up near the start of ep 1 instead of the end of it...

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyways, I actually really liked the prequels, despite a lot of absurdities, and most of what comes up with Jar Jar.

One of the things that I have really disliked in recent Trek series is what I call "magic matter". Someone presses a button (or otherwise activates things) and stuff just magically appears out of nowhere, unfolding out of itself, assembling into solid objects. They even used that in ST:Discovery, supposedly a prequel to ST:TOS, and IIRC not just on the ship with all of the Speshul Tech.



Also her other major series, the "Five Gods Universe", a fantasy work which is awesome in somewhat different ways. She's spending most of her time on that one these days. Those two series were the winners of the first two Hugo awards for best series..

I didn't watch recent star trek. The first of the roboot, and a bit of Picard, but I didn't really enjoy, so not sure what you are referring to. The franchise has had that thingy that makes food since quite a while, though?

[Skull the Troll]

In fairness to Star Wars, I don't recall anyone ever falling down any of the various pits, canyons, crevasses, etc - at least, not without being shot first.

A List of people falling into things in Stars that were not shot.

Darth Maul - Naboo Palace
Rey - The Dark side Cave
Han Solo - Star Killer Base
Luke, Cloud City, The Rancor Pit
Boba Fett - Accidentally knocked into the sarlacc pit
The Emperor - The very pit mentioned in the original post

[danielxcutter]

Who's J. J. Abrams? The closest name I can think of is JJJ.

[The MunchKING]

Who's J. J. Abrams? The closest name I can think of is JJJ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._J._Abrams

[danielxcutter]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._J._Abrams

Force Awakens and Rise of Skywalker? I've following OotS long enough to know the considerable hatred many people on the forum apparently feel for those.

[bunsen_h]

I didn't watch recent star trek. The first of the roboot, and a bit of Picard, but I didn't really enjoy, so not sure what you are referring to. The franchise has had that thingy that makes food since quite a while, though?

I'm not referring to the replicators, which supposedly use transporter-like technology. (And which would supposedly solve problems of dire poverty in places such as Bajor, which nevertheless remain poor... a plot hole big enough to drive a starship through.) I'm talking about something like a little box with a little button. Someone presses the button. Clackety-clackety-clack, the box unfolds into a larger box, then things pop out of its sides, then things pop out of those things, clackety-clack, in a few seconds a large solid object has spontaneously assembled itself.

[Jaziggy]

Actually, unless Serini enters the game and puts on her Monty Hall hat, there's really not any probability math, complex or otherwise (and the Monty Hall problem can be explained significantly better by using a billion doors instead of three, since then it's much more intuitive for anyone who got stuck on the traditional three-door explanation). It's a pretty straightforward 1 in a thousand shot per door.

Is it that simple? I'd think it would be 1/1000 it's behind your first door, than 1/999 behind your second, etc- assuming you were disarming each trap successfully and always KNEW whether or not you'd tripped the runes.

[bunsen_h]

The "key" to quick access to the gate may be to step across the supposed trap lines in the correct order, within a certain time limit, without (necessarily) engaging the dungeon occupants. They don't do anything but "paint" you; step in, step out. The protection on the gate's dungeon checks for those markers.