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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    OK, I getcha now. Though if that were the case, I'd imagine it would be easier and more reliable to just have any such runes on the inside of the doors, since that way they wouldn't be able to be bypassed like Haley is doing.
    But it could be a Schroedinger's trap, wherein simply observing and interacting with it changes its state.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psepha View Post
    Wait... IS the snow being moved aside a reliable indicator? It doesn't look like the doors hit the snow, so I assume it's from the passage of feet... and the MITD did approach each door to paint the red X's, whether that door was opened or not, so would that throw things off?
    I seem to recall the MitD not leaving footprints in the snow previously (comic #1039 - one of the clues that those guessing the nature of the MitD picked up on).
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    So, as Roy pointed out in strip 1203, the dungeon doors are too close together for anything other than a straight corridor behind each. We also know that the whole thing is made of multidimensional stone, which 1) means that you can't Ghostform through it and 2) introduces the idea of multidimensional natures. And now we have a trap that only a very high-level rogue could spot inside each door, one that obviously doesn't have any visible effect and that resets to apply to each person passing through the door.

    So my theory is that the entire complex is a shell game. The runes form some kind of dimensional shift, and if you cross the runes without disabling them you enter a tiny pocket dimension for each door, one that holds the appropriate monsters. The only way to access the actual Gate is to disable the dimensional runes, which allows you to enter the actual Gate complex. Serini tells everyone she's building a dungeon dedicated to the power of physical might in memory of Kraagor, but that is just one more layer of obfuscation around the Gate's actual defenses. Very rogueish thing to do.
    I can go behind this theory.
    Heck. I should totally design an extra-dimensional-space dungeon.

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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Wait...

    Back before Azure City Belkar had zero ranks in Survival and a negative wisdom modifier, making him a horrible tracker who couldn't track. (While still technically having the feature that will let him track.) So when was this time that he was avoiding cops with dogs and learning how to track because of it?
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Wait...

    Back before Azure City Belkar had zero ranks in Survival and a negative wisdom modifier, making him a horrible tracker who couldn't track. (While still technically having the feature that will let him track.) So when was this time that he was avoiding cops with dogs and learning how to track because of it?
    Two possibilities:

    1: He since realized the need for that (possibly after having put some points into WIS for various reasons), and has been backfilling his Survival stat since then.

    We have to keep in mind that the party was still mid-level back then, and they've gotten considerably more powerful since then.

    2: He's lying to Roy about his reasons because, while he's certainly closer to Chaotic Neutral these days than he was way back when (maybe even there and progressing towards Chaotic Good!), it ain't like he's going to go completely soft on Roy :).

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    I really doubt this is the case tbh, but is it possible that Team Evil made those weird Glyph Lines for some reason? The Order is specifically only checking doors that they believe Team Evil has already explored combined with the fact that Team Evil clearly does not set off any obvious effect from them might mean they are part of Team Evils workings?

    But a cool chekhovs gun related to the Gate does have so much more dramatic potential, even if it's a little hard to swallow that Team Evil is unaware of them or just setting them off willy nilly unconcerned.
    Last edited by Thanatosia; 2020-11-17 at 05:01 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Wait...

    Back before Azure City Belkar had zero ranks in Survival and a negative wisdom modifier, making him a horrible tracker who couldn't track. (While still technically having the feature that will let him track.) So when was this time that he was avoiding cops with dogs and learning how to track because of it?
    Tracking requires the Track feat in 3.5e, which the Ranger class gets for free at 1st level. I presume this is what he's referring to. Survival doesn't have a way of hiding tracks by default in 3.5e so the Giant may be ruling this as a use of Profession (Criminal) - or some other skill - that requires the Track feat.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    Never heard of her, but i'm interested.
    Which one of her series parodies LotR?
    It was a blog called Very Secret Diaries. Her own blog has not stayed up, but a friend/associate hosted them for posterity's sake.

    They are kinda silly. They first emerged after Fellowship of the Ring, the movie, came out. A friend at work clued me in, so I went home ... and was having a gigglefest when my wife dropped by and asked 'what's so funny' and then she had a giggle fest ...
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-11-17 at 05:24 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Wait...

    Back before Azure City Belkar had zero ranks in Survival and a negative wisdom modifier, making him a horrible tracker who couldn't track. (While still technically having the feature that will let him track.) So when was this time that he was avoiding cops with dogs and learning how to track because of it?
    He learnt the basics of tracking, enough to learn how to avoid being tracked. So he's terrible at tracking, but knows enough to throw off scent trails and cover his tracks. Think of whatever he's tossing on the ground as a Masterwork item giving a circumstance bonus. Hell, whatever he's throwing might even be in one of the Complete splatbooks. There was a ton of stuff for boosting skill checks in an overly specific way (tube of baby rust monsters, anyone?).
    Last edited by Riftwolf; 2020-11-17 at 05:44 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacky720 View Post
    Every door is rigged with runes that do something other than explode you. It fits neatly into forming a passcode, if the something is "track which door you entered".

    Which isn't really evidence because of all the other interpretations, but it does fit.
    In the abstract, it is a fine idea.

    Concretely speaking, it does not fit in this story, because the doors are so perfectly unidentifiable. If the doors had unique names or numbers on them, I could imagine there is a puzzle to be solved, such as you suggest. But The Giant would have dropped hints well before this point in the story.

    Call the Chekow's Anti-Gun. When no mention of a gun has occurred in the story, you can't have a hidden gun pulled out from behind some books on the shelf in the third act, and used to immediately kill an important character.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Regarding various speculations, it is quite conceivable that Haley is the first high enough level Rogue to attempt to disable one of these traps (other than Team Serini) within the relevant window of history. So, I agree something interesting might suddenly be stumbled upon, something that RC's True Seeing would not reveal.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
    I'm prepared to accept this under suspension of disbelief - but just pointing out, I'm not sure there is any way to hide your scent tracks after the fact. As I understand it, once the scent trail is laid, there isn't much you can do about it.
    The 3.5 Scent rules as written have a lot of rough edges. Enough so that I would not expect a DM to adhere to strict RAW.

    In terms of this story, Belkar has established that he is both a ranger and a skilled cook with an acute sense of smell/taste who spends personal time worrying over spices. We see him spreading herbs. That he could mask a scent makes a lot more sense than you average ranger, and as a DM or reader I would find this idea attractive enough to agree to.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Since Team Evil arrived at this location, everybody has been talking about the idea of a double bluff. Mostly, this has centered around the statue, and whether the Gate might somehow be hidden inside it, or something. I think there could be a double bluff of a different nature...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    I like the notion that it is a very powerful Teleport effect you don't notice...
    ...namely, how certain are we that there actually is more than one dungeon? Team Evil seems to have blindly proceeded with the assumption that 1 door = 1 dungeon. What if there only is one great big dungeon that resets with epic-level monsters, and everybody is teleported into that same space as they go in? A party could spend eternity checking and re-checking "every dungeon" and never reach the Gate.

    And since the walls are made of multi-dimensional stone — whatever that is, it seems to block ghostform and possibly other kinds of wall-bypassing magic — the dungeon itself guards against anyone figuring out the trick. You can't just escape from "one dungeon" into the "next dungeon over" because there isn't a "next dungeon over" from this one. There's just this one.

    Yes, I realize this would undermine the dramatic tension of MITD's clever ruse to keep Team Evil from finding anything. It doesn't undermine his character development, though, because he didn't know this wouldn't work.

    And if you want to get really far afield in the speculation department, what if the statue is the key — literally — in that you have to take the statue with you in order to get to the gate? The statue just sits up there saying SACRIFICE FORGOTTEN and everybody ignores it. So not forgetting the statue gets you inside.

    Yeah, too much speculation for one post. I know. Still, this is a fascinating turn of events.
    Last edited by Fish; 2020-11-17 at 06:52 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    The runes didn't appear to react to being crossed, which suggests that their effect is quite subtle. I'd also note that there's some... thematic weakness to the notion that the protections created by a rogue require only the direct application of force to solve.

    I note that the text has recently referenced the shell game idea again; my pet theory is that each and every door leads to the gate, but only if you detect and avoid the rune trap. Sort of the opposite of none of them being the door- they are all the door, and the existence of the choosing game is the sleight of hand.

    Can't wait to see what happens next!

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaziggy View Post
    I'd also note that there's some... thematic weakness to the notion that the protections created by a rogue require only the direct application of force to solve.
    Who says that brute force solves it? In the comic it only says she "filled the dungeon with fearsome monsters to reflect Kraagor's belief in physical might." Not that physical might would be useful in getting through.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Since Team Evil arrived at this location, everybody has been talking about the idea of a double bluff. Mostly, this has centered around the statue, and whether the Gate might somehow be hidden inside it, or something. I think there could be a double bluff of a different nature...



    ...namely, how certain are we that there actually is more than one dungeon?
    I can't speak for anyone else, but given that the bug ear village has been there for quite some time, they use the dungeons as a way of getting food, materials, and experience, and they firmly believe the Dungeons can be depleted of creatures and that they might have empty Dungeons while waiting for the creatures to respawn....

    I'd say that I, for one, am pretty certain there's at least two.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'd say that I, for one, am pretty certain there's at least two.
    You think a village of bugbears would send a party to split up and tackle multiple epic-level opponents simultaneously?
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    You think a village of bugbears would send a party to split up and tackle multiple epic-level opponents simultaneously?
    I think a village of bugbears would find at least one dungeon they could not take at some point, one they could at some point, and upon retrying the one they could, discover it took a while to repopulate while other doors still had monsters. After a couple of years, I'd imagine they would have a pretty good idea of how it works overall.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-17 at 08:17 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Is it possible that every door leads to different dungeons, as is assumed, and you get to these dungeons by teleporting after activating the runes, but when you disable the trap you don't teleport, which means you just walk in a straight line until you hit the end of the path?

    Basically, the monsters are what everyone thinks they need to beat, but they are a lure. What you actually need to do is disable the trap and then check the path beyond the trap for every door. One path leads to the portal.
    Last edited by tomaO2; 2020-11-17 at 08:52 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    First thought: this "trap" is a progress tracker of some description - ie. a way to keep track of how many dungeons have been tackled in the last X days, and is used to determine when you are allowed to the gate.

    Second thought: it is Serini's backdoor system. She wanted a Temple to Might to honour Kraagor, but, not being a barbarian, she needed a way to get to the door (for repairs, if nothing else) that didn't require battling through entire dungeons. So by skipping the trap, the OotS might actually skip ahead. I doubt it is as simple as avoiding the one trap at the start, though. I'd expect there would be others, some of which you have to trigger, and some you must not (but until you get it "wrong", you don't face monsters).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    My guess on the trap is Subtle Teleport, and the entire Dungeon is put together like an old Duke Nukem 3D map. Bypassing it gets you to the *real* Dungeon where the Invisible Assailants are stationed.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    I’m pretty sure that if it allows a save, it shouldn’t have worked on TE that much. I think whatever it does, it doesn’t influence the people who trigger it directly - it resets for every person who triggers it, not every dungeon.
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    In the abstract, it is a fine idea.

    Concretely speaking, it does not fit in this story, because the doors are so perfectly unidentifiable. If the doors had unique names or numbers on them, I could imagine there is a puzzle to be solved, such as you suggest. But The Giant would have dropped hints well before this point in the story.

    Call the Chekow's Anti-Gun. When no mention of a gun has occurred in the story, you can't have a hidden gun pulled out from behind some books on the shelf in the third act, and used to immediately kill an important character.
    What are you talking about, unidentifiable?

    Literally every single door is different. They have different handles, colors, wood patterns, number of wood slats in the door, hinges (type/size/placement), single/double door, and size. Not a single one is repeated in the entire wall - most obviously shown in comic 1039. That's a pretty big neon sign that there is a clear way to identify exactly what door/pattern is correct, we just don't know what it is yet.

    If I came across this setup in a game or D&D session, I would ASSUME that I needed a clue/code that I hadn't found yet, like Spelunky 2, the jar room where there are hundreds of very SIMILIAR, but distinct jars, where you obviously need to find the code for that run (although finding it can be tricky if you don't know), and I would keep an eye out for it as I continued my adventures - or look for rumors in the tavern.

    Or maybe we DO know, it was encoded in Serini's journal, and Xykon hasn't bothered to look for it.

    Which is exactly how the OOTS would find the correct path to the Gate - steal/acquire the journal, realize what the code is, and use it to access the Gate.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2020-11-17 at 11:48 PM.

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  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Who says that brute force solves it? In the comic it only says she "filled the dungeon with fearsome monsters to reflect Kraagor's belief in physical might." Not that physical might would be useful in getting through.
    That's what I mean- Team Evil has essentially been treating it as 'keep killing monsters 'til we guess right' and if that were really the structure of the gate's defenses, it would be a bit of a disappointing 'grandmaster rogue dungeon'- but a dungeon that appears to be one thing and is actually through a sort of psychological slight of hand another is really satisfying.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Query: Why would the Order need to access the gate? All they need is to prevent TE from accessing the gate.
    Hell, I never understood why O'Chul seemed to want to find the gate.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Windscion View Post
    Query: Why would the Order need to access the gate? All they need is to prevent TE from accessing the gate.
    Hell, I never understood why O'Chul seemed to want to find the gate.
    Probably the idea is "If I can get there first, I can be better prepared to defend it"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Windscion View Post
    Query: Why would the Order need to access the gate? All they need is to prevent TE from accessing the gate.
    Hell, I never understood why O'Chul seemed to want to find the gate.
    Well, besides being better able to defend it, probably to learn how to recreate the Gates in order to seal the giant growing rifts of the world I imagine.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinazina View Post
    snow aside = better indicator than the red X (also because OOTS shouldn't know what does it mean?)
    People keep saying that the OOTS doesn't know what the red X means, but they figure it out in comic 1198. So they do know what it means.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    Wait, so Roy was asking Elan for advice in the last strip and actually listened to him... And now Belkar is useful as a ranger??? Folks, we are still in the illusion! Nothing of the last 330 strips was real!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

    A lot of good guesses and ideas. I would say the idea that taking a part of the statue might be a hint or close to what the truth actually is.

    Maybe its as simple as breaking off a piece and carrying it with you.

    Though it could be multiple things, like disabling the trap at the entrance, the statue piece, killing all or none of the monsters, finding the hidden mcguffin in the dungeon and a hidden exit. Could be even all the dungeons follow this pattern.

    Though if killing "all" the monsters makes it impossible to continue, I'd assume it has an auto respawn system somehow. magic, a wizard did it, possibly with severl monsters to repopulate the place. eew.
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