OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread

[Metastachydium]

Well it was designed by a high level rogue.

Who should know a high-level rogue is basically standard issue for stuff like this.

And nobody suggested it would automatically reveal the gate. I don't get why so many people have the reflex to jump at "no you can't have this safety mechanism because X could defeat it". Stacking defenses just makes things tougher.

It is a defense which makes little difference if the party has a good rogue. „Team Evil could have found the Gate already, were they lucky enough to pack a rogue” just does not sound narratively satisfying to me.
Also, not anticipating a great wyrm dracolich thing with 15 levels in various overpowered psionic classes and not anticipating that an adventuring party will likely have a rogue are different things altogether.

As it stands, we know: Sirini was an epic rogue with likely mastery of traps, she made this dungeon, she filled it with big tough monsters as a tribute but in no way should we expect "be bigger and tougher" to be the key to the gates, she seemingly put a trap on each door, and these traps have no overt effect that we can see.

So "triggers something else further down off-screen" is a pretty likely explanation. Another one is that it's an alarm.

More likely, I'd say.

Narratively, I don't see a point to adding a trap that calls a dead or insignificant third party, or spending the time to disable a useless trap.

Said third party does not have to be dead or insignificant.

Edit:

Even if it was, though, it'd still be a better ruse than "the gate is under the statue".

Well. Almost literally everything is a better ruse than ”the Gate is under the statue.”

[Shining Wrath]

I wonder if the runes is the explanation for how there can be so many doors. Perhaps passing the runes makes the rest of the dungeon appear somehow?

A weakness of Team Evil is no rogue. They have all the spells but none of the (exploration) skills, except those that Oona brings. So maybe they've been crossing the line of runes without noticing it, and it does something that is not in-your-face blasting. An alarm that wakes the monsters? A conjuration that brings in more monsters? A transmutation that alters the path to the Gate?

[danielxcutter]

The other 20% being lighting (electric), and 5% being magic missile (force).

Death Ward, Resistance to Fire, Resistance to Electricity, Shield, and you are pretty well covered.

That's why he's got Superb Dispelling, though.

Also Mind Blank(he has a number of Mind-Affecting spells like Mass Hold Person and Symbol of Insanity) and possibly a good Fort save(Cloudkill). Those would help.

And I'd say how much Superb Dispelling matters depends on how fast you can beat him down. A decently optimized level 20 party - not min-maxing munchinkery, but certainly better than the Order - should be able to take him down before the person who got their buffs dispelled dies. For the Order though... Honestly, I'm not sure how they could defeat him at this point. He's too resistant, if not flat-out immune, to pretty much anything they can do to him.

[Peelee]

For sure, but building a huge system of dungeons where EVERY SINGLE DOOR leads to the prize if you have a good enough rogue to dismantle one trap at the entrance… Now, that would mean the one who built the place wasn't even trying or worse yet, wished to sabotage her own efforts.

I agree.

Who said any door would lead to the prize? Stacked defenses. Pick the right door AND disable the trap, nor OR. Even if it was, though, it'd still be a better ruse than "the gate is under the statue".

I agree.

Well. Almost literally everything is a better ruse than ”the Gate is under the statue.”

I agree.

Who should know a high-level rogue is basically standard issue for stuff like this.

I disagree. "High-level" does not appear to be standard issue in this world at all. It's uncommon. Epic seems to be full-on rare. While I agree with your overall point regarding this, I do not think that Serini expected a high-level Rogue who both knew about the Gates in general and also knew where they were and also wanted to access them for some reason would have a terribly high likelihood of happening.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, Greyhawk this ain't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's a good point but it could also be that side-stepping this trap has become routine to them and so not worth mentionning anymore.

Sidestepping doesn't seem to be an option according to Haley.

Basically, if you walk over the runes without disarming them, they create a mystery dungeon that has a randomly generated set of rooms and monsters.

I'll be rather surprised if these traps are so magical as to reshape the entire dungeon and summon monsters on demand. First, because the place stays empty, so it can't be recreating the dungeon every time one person goes in - literally, that'd mean that the dungeon changed around Xykon right now, since Greyview came in late - but also because Serini is not an epic mage. And the one epic mage she knew spent all his money on their own dungeon; it doesn't sound like he was around to strengthen the defences of anyone else's.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Sidestepping doesn't seem to be an option according to Haley.

Side-stepping, bypassing, disarming call it whatever you want I meant dealing with it.

[danielxcutter]

I'll be rather surprised if these traps are so magical as to reshape the entire dungeon and summon monsters on demand. First, because the place stays empty, so it can't be recreating the dungeon every time one person goes in - literally, that'd mean that the dungeon changed around Xykon right now, since Greyview came in late - but also because Serini is not an epic mage. And the one epic mage she knew spent all his money on their own dungeon; it doesn't sound like he was around to strengthen the defences of anyone else's.

Same here - she could probably pay for some magic, and it does seem like she was at least on good enough terms with Girard and probably the Scribblers in general so they might have given a little help, but I doubt it'd be that major considering that they had their own Gates to protect as well.

[Metastachydium]

I disagree. "High-level" does not appear to be standard issue in this world at all. It's uncommon. Epic seems to be full-on rare. While I agree with your overall point regarding this, I do not think that Serini expected a high-level Rogue who both knew about the Gates in general and also knew where they were and also wanted to access them for some reason would have a terribly high likelihood of happening.

…
True enough.
Still, the Tomb is exactly the kind of place a halfway sane low-to-mid level party would not approach unless their life depended on it whether they know about the Gate or not.

[Schroeswald]

Side-stepping, bypassing, disarming call it whatever you want I meant dealing with it.

We’ve seen them go inside the doors twice, both of those times they clearly blindly walked right over the traps.

[Theshipening]

Also, not anticipating a great wyrm dracolich thing with 15 levels in various overpowered psionic classes and not anticipating that an adventuring party will likely have a rogue are different things altogether.

Or not anticipating that powerful spell casters could be immune to disease ! That’d just be silly.

[bunsen_h]

I don't see why. It might just trigger a fireball to soften the intruders for the monsters. Or something of that effect.

Or douse the intruders with barbecue sauce or honey mustard.

[danielxcutter]

Or not anticipating that powerful spell casters could be immune to disease ! That’d just be silly.

Disease I can buy. Not getting that undead creatures can't be poisoned, though?

[b_jonas]

I'd like to note that we already had a dungeon that was protected by a magical trap where you need to satisfy some tricky condition to reach the gate. It was Dorukan's dungeon, where you needed to collect three sigils and have three adventurers who are pure in the heart to use them. Serini's dungeon won't repeat such a thing. Like Grey_Wolf_c says, Serini isn't a high level mage. My guess is that the trap is insignificant in the long run. It probably has some ordinary magic effect. We've seen traps that give Stoneskin and Haste to a guardian monster in the dugeon, or shoots darts with strength-draining poison to the adventurers (the same trap that bunsen_h mentions). It probably won't be an exact repeat of those effects of course.

Darth V: No, it's not still an illusion. :)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My guess is that the trap is insignificant in the long run.

Interesting. And the expenditure of 8+ panels on it is just in the service of character development, then? Showcasing how much the OotS has grown? I mean, I can see that maybe being the case, but I can't help but feel that then the Giant would have had her disable the first one. The extra attention to it feels like it is accomplishing both the character development and setting a trigger to be employed by Mr. Chekhov at some later time (as a comparison, I'd expect the trail-erasing being set up by Belkar to be unreferenced from now on, or at most head-nodded before being bypassed).

Grey Wolf

[locksmith of lo]

We’ve seen them go inside the doors twice, both of those times they clearly blindly walked right over the traps.

we've seen them go in the door twice, yes, but both times you cannot see what is inside the door that they themselves opened. (i think that is for a reason) so we are assuming that something is there like behind those that OOTS opened. but for all we know, team evil did not have them for some reason. in fact, we never see what's behind a door when TE opens it. so it's a possibility, but i am not sure what it would mean.

[BruceGee]

It's worth remembering that it isn't just TE that his been traipsing in and out of these doors -- several generations of adventurous bugbears have made it the basis of their economy. Surely one of them would have noticed the runes -- even a low-level rogue would have rolled a 20 at some point.

Perhaps Oona knows all about the traps, but "forgot" to mention them to the rest of team evil. After all, actually finding the gate doesn't necessarily help her achieve her personal goals, whatever they may be. Xykon sees her as a minion, but perhaps she sees him and GC as convenient saps who can help her stock up the village for winter.

[Ghosty]

…
True enough.
Still, the Tomb is exactly the kind of place a halfway sane low-to-mid level party would not approach unless their life depended on it whether they know about the Gate or not.

Yet the Bugbear village does it all of the time. Do they have any Rogues? Or any Rogues with enough oomph in Search that they'd spot this trap that appears to be on every door?

Have other parties tried the Tomb? We know by RC's reaction when first seeing Durkon, that "pilgrims" to the statue aren't that unusual, but do those pilgrims ever test themselves against the weird valley with a gazillion doors?

EDIT: a teleporting trap solves a few issues with the Tomb as stated.

1, Roy's observation about the sheer number of doors and their spacing. With the implication that you can't fit all of the dungeon tunnels in the space of the Hollow as drawn.

2. If these monsters are so powerful, why are they choosing to stay in the Tomb? Especially if they get bothered by some pack of adventurers? If the adventurers figure out the Tomb's too much for them and try to run away, what prevents the monsters from giving chase? A Geas? On all of the inhabitants? Giving the monsters some form of thingy that inactivated the transport tripwire, takes care of that problem.

[Skull the Troll]

It's worth remembering that it isn't just TE that his been traipsing in and out of these doors -- several generations of adventurous bugbears have made it the basis of their economy. Surely one of them would have noticed the runes -- even a low-level rogue would have rolled a 20 at some point.

Perhaps Oona knows all about the traps, but "forgot" to mention them to the rest of team evil. After all, actually finding the gate doesn't necessarily help her achieve her personal goals, whatever they may be. Xykon sees her as a minion, but perhaps she sees him and GC as convenient saps who can help her stock up the village for winter.

Given that when team evil has walked over nothing happened that anyone seemed to be aware of, I think these traps aren't just a fireball or some other direct defense. It seems unlikely that is anything so powerful as reconfiguring the dungeon, she was a rogue and wouldn't have had access to a huge amount of magic. My guess is that its a doorbell. A way of Serini or whoever is monitoring this now to know who's going in where.

[Feruk]

Lies! Belkar doesn't know how to track!

He had to be manipulated into it, but https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html shows that he's been able to track for nearly 1200 strips :P

[Metastachydium]

Yet the Bugbear village does it all of the time.

Well, they are no adventurers and their life does kind of depend on it.

Do they have any Rogues? Or any Rogues with enough oomph in Search that they'd spot this trap that appears to be on every door?

Hard to tell. Personally, I have difficulty believing that no one ever detected them before.

Have other parties tried the Tomb? We know by RC's reaction when first seeing Durkon, that "pilgrims" to the statue aren't that unusual, but do those pilgrims ever test themselves against the weird valley with a gazillion doors?

I am inclined to assume that Redcloak first identified Durkon as a pilgrim mainly for lack of any other realistic idea on why he would visit the statue. The whole deal with „sacrifise forgotten” tells us that actual pilgrims are quite unlikely to pay visits.

EDIT: a teleporting trap solves a few issues with the Tomb as stated.

I'd presume that X. and especially Redcloak would have noticed that by now, though.

If these monsters are so powerful, why are they choosing to stay in the Tomb? Especially if they get bothered by some pack of adventurers? If the adventurers figure out the Tomb's too much for them and try to run away, what prevents the monsters from giving chase? A Geas? On all of the inhabitants? Giving the monsters some form of thingy that inactivated the transport tripwire, takes care of that problem.

Yeah, that's one very good question. Permit me to be somewhat skeptical about the answer you proposed, however, for the reason stated above.

[Hopeless]

So what we do know is that Serini is a halfling and a Rogue who was close friends with some of the others and created her dungeon as a memorial to Kraagor a dwarven Barbarian?

So building her dungeon out of stone, have a trip wire that sounds like its only visible to those not of evil alignment perhaps not so much invisible but designed to be something only a rogue would notice?

Maybe the point of that trap is not to effect the intruders but indicate where they end up heading back out to prevent them realizing they aren't searching the same corridor they thought they were?

Is it possible when TE entered when their wolf came after them the wolf doesn't end up in the same corridor as they do as neither are aware of the true nature of these challenges?

A variant of Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion made permanent but like Caleb's is designed to suit Serini's whims which in this case would be a test of might worthy of a barbarian, but perhaps the Order has bypassed the first such safety measure so instead of entering the "mansion" they're about to enter the true dungeon?

Next episode might reveal more though...

[pendell]

Yet the Bugbear village does it all of the time. Do they have any Rogues? Or any Rogues with enough oomph in Search that they'd spot this trap that appears to be on every door?

...
2. If these monsters are so powerful, why are they choosing to stay in the Tomb? Especially if they get bothered by some pack of adventurers? If the adventurers figure out the Tomb's too much for them and try to run away, what prevents the monsters from giving chase? A Geas? On all of the inhabitants? Giving the monsters some form of thingy that inactivated the transport tripwire, takes care of that problem.

Interesting question . Maybe that line of runes isn't a trap after all? Maybe instead it prevents the monsters, which are presumably sustained in the tomb by some magic, from leaving it? That would explain why TE just ignored it rather than disarming it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TuringTest]

Is it just me or is it a little disturbing to see all of them actually using their skills properly? :)

It's quite funny actually. The first jokes were about D&D characters being awfully incompetent.

Now the situation has been reversed, and all the jokes are about them being competent!

[Metastachydium]

Interesting question . Maybe that line of runes isn't a trap after all? Maybe instead it prevents the monsters, which are presumably sustained in the tomb by some magic, from leaving it? That would explain why TE just ignored it rather than disarming it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Hm. And how would it do that? A compulsion effect or some kind of abjuration? Shouldn't Haley be able to tell those from a strict sense trap? Why doesn't it affect other creatures leaving the corridors, such as Team Evil and the bugbears?

[Goblin_Priest]

Who should know a high-level rogue is basically standard issue for stuff like this.

It is a defense which makes little difference if the party has a good rogue. „Team Evil could have found the Gate already, were they lucky enough to pack a rogue” just does not sound narratively satisfying to me.


Said third party does not have to be dead or insignificant.

Again, exact same logical fallacy. "Bypassing this trap is required to access the gate" and "Bypassing this trap leads to the gate" are two different things altogether. Just because the setup requires a rogue, doesn't mean that having a rogue would give you instant access to the gate. You'd still need to figure out the right door first, or stumble upon it in any case.

And high level characters, much less rogues, aren't standard issue. That's a pretty baseless affirmation.

As for the third party, well, these doors have been penetrated quite a few times over quite a long period of time. So if that rule is calling someone, that someone isn't responding, and hasn't in ages, and there's little reason to believe that this activation would be any different than any of the previous ones.

Also Mind Blank(he has a number of Mind-Affecting spells like Mass Hold Person and Symbol of Insanity) and possibly a good Fort save(Cloudkill). Those would help.

And I'd say how much Superb Dispelling matters depends on how fast you can beat him down. A decently optimized level 20 party - not min-maxing munchinkery, but certainly better than the Order - should be able to take him down before the person who got their buffs dispelled dies. For the Order though... Honestly, I'm not sure how they could defeat him at this point. He's too resistant, if not flat-out immune, to pretty much anything they can do to him.

Team Evil is grossly undersized. Less so lately, though, thankfully for them. If MitD's neutral and doesn't outright help the Order, Xykon and Redcloak are going to suffer terribly from the action economy advantage the Order has. Even if they have access to a higher spell slot, they still need to cast them. And there's a lot of way to disrupt spellcasting. Especially when you have more party members than the opposing party, which makes readied actions much more viable as a strategy. They've got Oona and Greyview, though, so it's not as bad, but we don't know what level they are, and they remain outnumbered. I also seem to recall Xykon taking a good hit in pretty much every fight. Aside form fire, his immunities haven't been massively handy.

Interesting. And the expenditure of 8+ panels on it is just in the service of character development, then? Showcasing how much the OotS has grown? I mean, I can see that maybe being the case, but I can't help but feel that then the Giant would have had her disable the first one. The extra attention to it feels like it is accomplishing both the character development and setting a trigger to be employed by Mr. Chekhov at some later time (as a comparison, I'd expect the trail-erasing being set up by Belkar to be unreferenced from now on, or at most head-nodded before being bypassed).

Grey Wolf

I've considered that. It's possible the trap's just there to showcase Haley's contributions, just like every other member of the party is now doing their thing. However, the trap being pointless would make her contribution equally pointless. In fact, if the trap does nothing, then because of her they'd be wasting a minute to bypass it instead of doing more important stuff. This really reeks of Chekov's gun, anyways. The loaded gun's there, it's probably gonna serve a purpose.

Hm. And how would it do that? A compulsion effect or some kind of abjuration? Shouldn't Haley be able to tell those from a strict sense trap? Why doesn't it affect other creatures leaving the corridors, such as Team Evil and the bugbears?

The runes serving to keep monsters in would make sense world-building wise, but it'd just feel like explaining things that didn't need explaining. "Why are the monsters staying inside?" has never really been brought up as a pertinent interrogation.

[Ajustusdaniel]

Why doesn't it affect other creatures leaving the corridors, such as Team Evil and the bugbears?

Hypothetically? It tags you as you enter, crossing one way, and prevents you from crossing the other way if you aren't tagged. Of course if that's the case, the OoTS are in trouble if they try to leave in a hurry, because Haley is going to prevent it from tagging them.

[KorvinStarmast]

Interesting question . Maybe that line of runes isn't a trap after all? Maybe instead it prevents the monsters, which are presumably sustained in the tomb by some magic, from leaving it?

I was about to say "Maybe it's written in Thieves Cant" but I don't think Thieves Cant is a written language. But if it were, that could explain why Haley sees the runes and Roy does not, and none of Team Evil, nor Oona, nor bugbears in general, noticed them. (We have no idea whether or not the bugbears prior to team evil's arrival would have or did notice them, and it's probably not relevant to the story).

he runes serving to keep monsters in would make sense world-building wise,

Yes. But I share your reaction to that.

[tanonev]

It's worth remembering that it isn't just TE that his been traipsing in and out of these doors -- several generations of adventurous bugbears have made it the basis of their economy. Surely one of them would have noticed the runes -- even a low-level rogue would have rolled a 20 at some point.

Rolling a 20 does not guarantee success on finding traps, as Haley herself has explained and demonstrated as a not-low-level rogue.

The natural 1 and 20 automatic failure/success rules only apply to attacks and saves, not skill checks, by RAW (and RAI). This is important because skill checks with no failure penalty have the option to take 20 (repeat until you get a 20), and "you will succeed on any task in the universe that has no penalty for failure if you try 20 times" is silly, even by D&D mechanics standards.

[Hopeless]

That's an interesting point!

IF it is thieves cant that could explain why its ignored since only a rogue would pay attention to it and might actually be intended as a reference for later on where it leads to a variety of secret doors perhaps?