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2020-11-18, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Fishman; 2020-11-18 at 04:53 PM.
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2020-11-18, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-18, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
If I remember correctly, Symbol spells and a lot of other similar magic traps say in their description that they can only be detected by a Rogue (barring certain magical detections, obviously).
Assuming that these haven't been employed by TE, they do not know about the trap, even after crossing dozens of them. This in turn implies that it's not immediately evident, possibly a detection of some sort.
One person (forgot who) mentioned that the invisible folks who grabbed the paladins might be guardians of the gate who use this detection to monitor the gate's defenses. If this is the case, I find it likely they did so to prevent TE from noticing them, since they obviously wanted the paladins alive.Last edited by Thermophille; 2020-11-18 at 05:43 PM.
I like heated water, not heated arguments.
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2020-11-18, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Petrocorus; 2020-11-18 at 06:13 PM.
Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.
Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF. -- -- Petrocorus's 3.5 Paladin Builds List. -- -- French vs. EnglishOriginally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
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2020-11-18, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-18, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2020-11-18, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
I love all the speculation that is going on in this thread and I'm excited to see what twists and turns the dungeon holds. I also really appreciate seeing the Order working together, something we really haven't seen much of since Book 5 (so, a few years now).
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2020-11-18, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, but if I’m right and it’s based on(if not a straight renaming of) the Mage Slayer feat, Xykon has a very good chance to make his Concentration check. Undead use their Charisma bonus for Concentration, and even Durkula made it once. Xykon has a Charisma bonus in the low stratosphere.
And like, the Order has trouble doing anything to him at all. The clerics are too underleveled to have a realistic chance of constantly hitting him, most of V’s spells won’t work and the IFCC can pull them out of the fight whenever they want, and the rest have trouble with so much as scratching him.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2020-11-19, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Definitely not thinking that trap is a damage based one. The dungeon might have been built to honor Kraagor but it was still built by a rogue. The Order might have a pretty big surprise waiting for them at the end of this.
If this is the key to the gate though, then it seems strange to me that none of the more observant members of Team Evil would have noticed it by now.
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2020-11-19, 05:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
The 'symbol' spell from v3.0 has the following "Note: Magic traps such as symbol are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a symbol and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol"
http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/pla...032/index.html
None of the effects listed look like a good match, however. Was there a v3.5 equivalent? 2 searches got me nothing.Last edited by greenfunkman; 2020-11-19 at 05:05 AM. Reason: Grammar
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2020-11-19, 05:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Ah, I see, they split it up into separate symbols. Example: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Symbol_of_Weakness
...has the same Rogue- only Search restriction.
So I guess its a new (epic?) spell with the symbol spell qualities.
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2020-11-19, 05:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
So if every room has the exact same trap, does that mean the only way to really access the gate room requires bypassing it?
And it also means they're heading right towards the gate?
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2020-11-19, 05:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Would you agree that
1. a regular dungeon-delving adventuring group will most often have a rogue;
2. (as pointed out before) an adventuring party entering the tomb on its own volition is more likely than not to be high level;
3. and therefore such a party will almost certainly have a high level rogue?
Also, the line of runes is small, but not exactly hidden. I'm not even sure it takes a high level rogue to notice it.
As for the third party, well, these doors have been penetrated quite a few times over quite a long period of time. So if that rule is calling someone, that someone isn't responding, and hasn't in ages, and there's little reason to believe that this activation would be any different than any of the previous ones.
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2020-11-19, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Here's a theory... the trap teleports the gate to another, unoccupied, dungeon; if the gate happens to be in 'this' dungeon. So you can search ALL the dungeons and not find it. You would need to search all dungeons SIMULTANEOUSLY to find it.
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2020-11-19, 07:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
We found the one area of tracking Belkar's good at. God, everyone's just being oddly-competent today.
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2020-11-19, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-19, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
The problem with a system that tags the pass-byers is that any form of tagging would force a save (will, probably). Thus, powerful intruders would simply resist the effect. And I don't recall well but I think your character knows when he makes a save?
True, I don't see any description for hiding tracks in the track feat or the survival skill, but rangers get track at first level, advanced track later, and a bunch of hidey stuff. If we leave RAW for a moment, which this comic does every now and then when it makes sense or makes a better story, "Belkar using his hidey skills and tracky skills in a novel combined manner to display his growth as a ranger" seems plausible to me.
I don't think Durkula made it. Wasn't the interpretation that the spell only works on spells cast defensively, and that Durkula just chose to take the attack of opportunity? In any case, it needs not work 100% of the time, like it did in the illusion. Xykon only gets 1 turn per round. Even with quickened spells, that's a maximum of 2 spells per turn. With this manoeuver and people like Haley preparing attacks of opportunity, his effectiveness should be reduced.
No, I wouldn't agree. Not all parties have rogues, not all parties are high level, not all high level parties that do have rogues have single-classed rogues, not all parties that do have single-classed rogues will have super high spot checks and will always spot the trap, and so on, and so on. Roy couldn't see the runes even when pointed to them by Haley. Nobody else so far seems to have made any mention of them either. The DC can be assumed to be pretty damn high. And even if the runes are spotted, its not guaranteed the rogue will know what they do. So considering the number of doors, even if they spot the runes on the first door, odds are any intruders will need to try a huge number of doors before they stumble upon the right one. Meaning that since these are magical traps, odds are eventually there'll be failures and mishaps. Even a party with a powerful rogue, not knowing what the runes are for, might just end up no longer bothering with them.
An extra layer of defense is an extra layer of defense. Doesn't matter how bad you think it is, if you draw a venn diagram of "parties with potent rogues" and "parties strong enough to defeat the big monsters inside", you've now got a pool of candidates much smaller than either original categories.Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2020-11-19, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
I said dungeon-delving parties and most often. Please note that even if a party knows there's something important inside, they are unlikely to know how exactly that thing is defended. Dungeons have a tendency to contain traps, even te Tomb has at least one. And rogues are a lot better at trapfinding than others.
not all parties are high level,
not all high level parties that do have rogues have single-classed rogues, not all parties that do have single-classed rogues will have super high spot checks and will always spot the trap, and so on, and so on.
Roy couldn't see the runes even when pointed to them by Haley. Nobody else so far seems to have made any mention of them either.
The DC can be assumed to be pretty damn high. And even if the runes are spotted, its not guaranteed the rogue will know what they do. So considering the number of doors, even if they spot the runes on the first door, odds are any intruders will need to try a huge number of doors before they stumble upon the right one. Meaning that since these are magical traps, odds are eventually there'll be failures and mishaps. Even a party with a powerful rogue, not knowing what the runes are for, might just end up no longer bothering with them.
An extra layer of defense is an extra layer of defense. Doesn't matter how bad you think it is, if you draw a venn diagram of "parties with potent rogues" and "parties strong enough to defeat the big monsters inside", you've now got a pool of candidates much smaller than either original categories.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-11-19 at 08:36 AM. Reason: Â.
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2020-11-19, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Look at 'em, working together like a functional team. *Sniff* They grew up so fast.
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2020-11-19, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-19, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Got me to read the trap finding rules. I thought the skill just granted a auto check and a bonus on it, maybe that's some pathfinder stuff. Instead, they get some form of exclusivity.
But that brought me to see the parts about disabling traps... Haley seems to make it sound easier to bypass than to disarm, but you actually need to roll much higher to do that, and it doesn't take any less time. I'm not sure what to make of this.
It'd feel cheap to you if the Order got access to the Gate thanks to their combined efforts and increased skills paying off?
The only way I could see that is if we spin that into "then Team Evil would never have been able to find it anyways, so it negates the stakes". Which I guess would be a fair point. But on the other hand they've got a pretty badass bugbear community on hand, so... maybe eventually? Isn't rogue their favored class?
If this is what you mean, then personally I wouldn't completely dismiss the "gate hiding mechanism" possibility, but it would give more credence to alternatives, such as "monster respawn mechanism". Which could play well into a confrontation between the Order and Team Evil. The major obstacles to this theory is that the characters just established that it wasn't the time to confront Team Evil yet. But... maybe someone can help me out, but I can't really see why. Sure, there are unresolved ploint points, but what else is the Order supposed to do? Just sit it out until these resolve themselves on their own? They came here to stop Team Evil. Now that they are here... I kinda expect them to want to stop Team Evil.
The other possibilities that were mentioned were an alarm, which I find unlikely because those traps are constantly getting triggered, it'd seem kinda pointless to have something that rings every day, especially if you'll never do anything about it. Potentially the alarm could be more specific, telling race, alignment, and level, or something like that, but if it needs to scan, then it grants a save, and I'm not inclined to believe these traps are save-based. The last possibility that was mentioned that I can think of is a tag, which runs into this exact save problem. If you have a defense that requires foes being tagged before punishing them, then you are not only allowing two saves when you could have just had one, but you also aren't going to be able to tackle anything strong enough to tackle your monsters (any tagging would be Will negates).
As a sidenote, while I personally like Rich's writing and think most of his stuff is great, there have been occasions where I was rather disappointed with the twists. Nobody's perfect. For example, the resolution of the Durkula problem always bothered me. To pull off his "Durkon takes over from within", which while having some build-up to didn't really feel like the denouement that was being set up, what was also required was that everyone in the order keep rolling nat 1s on all of their saves (or just about), and then completely throwing out the window all of the build up lore on how vampiric inner workings (speed of thought) worked. So it's not impossible later denouements also be somewhat unsatisfying.Last edited by Goblin_Priest; 2020-11-19 at 10:01 AM.
Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2020-11-19, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
I don't see that as her making it seem like it'd be easier. I see that as her thinking it'd be more tactically sound. Roy wants to just spring it, likely out of time crunch and figuring it won't be too bad. Haley responds that in the same time as disarming, she could bypass, meaning it'd still be up for anyone who follows. Which fits in perfectly fine with the rules.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-11-19, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
How I read that is if Team Evil, or Kermit and Scooter, or Sabine or whoever ends up going into that place after them, they will trigger the trap unless they bypass/disable the trap.
And for the record, I’m not really sure what it will do, but my personal theory is that whatever the trap does, it means that Team Evil finding the gate through their original strategy is much harder than expected, if it’s possible at all, and that having a rogue disable the traps just means you’re facing what we thought you would be facing before the strip, just now you need a high level rogue to disable it and never fail at doing that.Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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2020-11-19, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
There's that too, but I was mostly referring to the idea that they'll find the Gate via blind luck (Team Evil opened good doors at the right time, and the Order chooses the right one out of the two, all by accident).
If this is what you mean, then personally I wouldn't completely dismiss the "gate hiding mechanism" possibility, but it would give more credence to alternatives, such as "monster respawn mechanism". Which could play well into a confrontation between the Order and Team Evil.
The major obstacles to this theory is that the characters just established that it wasn't the time to confront Team Evil yet. But... maybe someone can help me out, but I can't really see why. Sure, there are unresolved ploint points, but what else is the Order supposed to do? Just sit it out until these resolve themselves on their own? They came here to stop Team Evil. Now that they are here... I kinda expect them to want to stop Team Evil.
The other possibilities that were mentioned were an alarm, which I find unlikely because those traps are constantly getting triggered, it'd seem kinda pointless to have something that rings every day, especially if you'll never do anything about it. Potentially the alarm could be more specific, telling race, alignment, and level, or something like that, but if it needs to scan, then it grants a save, and I'm not inclined to believe these traps are save-based. The last possibility that was mentioned that I can think of is a tag, which runs into this exact save problem. If you have a defense that requires foes being tagged before punishing them, then you are not only allowing two saves when you could have just had one, but you also aren't going to be able to tackle anything strong enough to tackle your monsters (any tagging would be Will negates).
Still, the alarm thing could still work, since the bugbears were very obviously not searching the place systematically, while Team Evil is opening doors with a breakneck speed. A new faction interfering with what's going on would also help give our heroes something to do with the rest of the book until they get to fight the Bony Bastard, Redcloak or both.
As a sidenote, while I personally like Rich's writing and think most of his stuff is great, there have been occasions where I was rather disappointed with the twists. Nobody's perfect. For example, the resolution of the Durkula problem always bothered me. To pull off his "Durkon takes over from within", which while having some build-up to didn't really feel like the denouement that was being set up, what was also required was that everyone in the order keep rolling nat 1s on all of their saves (or just about), and then completely throwing out the window all of the build up lore on how vampiric inner workings (speed of thought) worked. So it's not impossible later denouements also be somewhat unsatisfying.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-11-19 at 10:40 AM.
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2020-11-19, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-19, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
No, that’s not really in line with how it works. It looks like when Durkula casts, Roy swings his sword so it interrupts the casting and the spell fizzles. That’s how Mage Slayer works; you can’t cast defensively in the range of it so you have to make a Concentration check with a DC of 10+damage taken. Roy deals fairly good damage, but both Durkula and Xykon have high DR that his sword can’t penetrate and he can’t Power Attack too much if he wants to hit them. Also Haley literally can’t even scratch Xykon, what do you mean?
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2020-11-19, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Again, I don't play 3.5, (except vicariously through reading this strip, and reading the rest of you talk about it) but it looks like two different DC rolls by Haley to bypass these runes. First is a Search check, and because she 'hasn't been keeping it maxed', and didn't take very long to formally search the entryway, I think that implies the Trap DC isn't very high. She's still a high-level (near Epic?) Rogue though, with plenty of traits that would help her Search score for this.
To temporarily bypass the trap requires a separate Disable Device check. We've no information about how little or much she's paid attention to keeping that high. Though she was recognizing and bypassing a bunch of spell-casting traps in the pyramid. I don't know if there are separate DC values for detecting versus disabling a given trap. Like this tape's hard to see but easy to break, and vice versa.
Rangers can Search too, for simple mechanical traps. They don't easily get a lot of the synergistic feats that Rogues do---and as noted upthread, they can't see magic traps like Explosive Runes or Symbols at all---but they could get by, conceivably. RedCloak could use his Search skill like a Rogue if he had cast Find Traps, but Search isn't a class skill for him. How high would it be, really?
What you all say about high level NPC adventuring parties, and their having Rogues, makes sense. Does that imply none have visited the Tomb since construction? I mean, why would they have heard of it in the first place?
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2020-11-19, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Characters I've enjoyed playing for more than four sessions:
Falgar the Swiftblade
Revain Sumeth, Whip Fighter Extraordinaire
Malvin Firel, Cleric of Corellon, Destroyer of Undeath
Vongur Dorent, Primeval Champion of Poverty
In defense of the Vow of Poverty
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2020-11-19, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Fourth thought: the trap does absolutely nothing. It is there only to delay any team who has a rogue and who does not just charge ahead like Kraagor would have. The gate can only be reached if you get there within X rounds of the door opening for the first time since the last respawn, and every 2d4 you waste disarming traps or taking too long to complete the fights count against you.
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2020-11-19, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1219 - The Discussion Thread
Considering that Haley can disable it in "Less than a minute, even.", I don't think that's likely. If it was a stalling tactic, it would be a little more obvious (detectable by a ranger like Oona, for example), and take far longer to disarm.
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