Tasha's Cauldron of Disappointment

[Dr. Cliché]

Oh thank goodness, someone else said it! Every time the complaint came up, part of me was thinking "Really, the entire reason this appealed to you was 'I can do 8d6 fire damage at level 5'?"

No, but it was a big part of the theme and appeal of the class.

The issue is not with that specific spell per se. The issue is that that spell gave the Druid something it was otherwise lacking in - an effective, non-concentration AoE spell. Effectively, it was a massive boon for anyone who wanted to play a blasting Druid. Not only that but it was also perfectly in-theme with the whole fire shtick, giving you a good fire spell option for that level.

Without it, you're stuck with stuff like Erupting Earth, which is not only much worse, it's also completely out-of-theme for the Wildfire Druid. If this was a Wizard subclass, it could at least fall back on Melf's Minute Meteorites. Meanwhile, a Druid now gets to fall back on . . . nothing.

Oh but at least you get Plant Growth now. Just what a Wildfire Druid always wanted.

From what I've seen so far, there are good bits, but overall I'm disappointed too. It's just so dull. Like the psionic subclasses is probably my best example.

There are several ways you can screw up implementing psionics. They can be overpowered, underpowered, indecipherable, time-consuming, and just about anything else you can think of. Yet I'd prefer any of those to what WotC did in Tasha's, which was to say "it's the same as anything else" - i.e. make them mundane. If there's one thing they've always had in common through the editions, it's been that implementations of psionics have always been so weird and alien, both in concept and mechanics. Interesting, and a complete opposite to what they're like in Tasha's. Uninspired, samey waste of potential. :(

This sounds like a similar problem to 4e, where the vast majority of the magic was indistinguishable from mundane attacks and abilities. I'm sure it makes for better balance but it also takes all the magic out of the magic.

[Azuresun]

And what is wrong with that? I don't like this culture of calling out those who whine and brand them as powergamers. Lots of people roll wizards, sorcerers, fiend locks, light clerics just for Fireball. Lots of Bards pick Fireball as their magical secret too.

"Just for Fireball." No other reason whatsoever other than getting a curve-breaking damage spell? That's quite a claim.

And I don't actually mind powergaming in itself.....I only dislike it when it starts choking out the ability to consider anything other than the most powerful options as worthy of consideration.

I suspect those who are okay with Wildfire druid losing Fireball were never interested in Druids or the concept of a fire druid anyway, and thus its easy to laugh at people who are interested in it, Fireball included or not. And you feel justified when it becomes official. You are convinced that Wildfire Druids don't need Fireball and should be happy with what they got.

I really like the idea, thanks for asking! It's on the list of concepts I'd like to play if I ever stop DMing--I always liked the concepts for the Children of Winter and Ashbound in Eberron, and think this would be a good way of representing more a militant, nature-is-not-nice druid, assuming it'll fit in with the rest of the party and the sort of game the DM had in mind.

[Warder]

I don't understand why people point to Plant Growth as an odd choice for Wildfire druids? It's really thematic, definitely suits the theme of strong growth after a forest fire.

[Dr. Cliché]

I don't understand why people point to Plant Growth as an odd choice for Wildfire druids? It's really thematic, definitely suits the theme of strong growth after a forest fire.

It's not odd, just exceptionally unhelpful.

Fireball gave the Wildfire druid an in-theme spell that it couldn't otherwise take.

Plant Growth gives the Wildfire a somewhat in-theme spell that it could take anyway.

[cutlery]

Psi Warrior sucks, relative to what it could have been.

Zero social/investigation utility, staggeringly weak damage relative to battlemasters, weak longevity over a long adventuring day, and pretty weak ability to mitigate damage for others, too, relative to other fighter subclasses.

The new Psi die is just terrible compared to what it was. The omission of psionic feats that worked with psi die is also bad.

Psionics is always either terribly weak or terribly broken, but the UA version from several months ago was approaching ok while still being a fresh and interesting mechanic. What a shame.

Oh, and bulwark of force is still a pretty niche and awful ability for level 15; unless the party faces swarms of weak enemies often.

[Warder]

It's not odd, just exceptionally unhelpful.

Fireball gave the Wildfire druid an in-theme spell that it couldn't otherwise take.

Plant Growth gives the Wildfire a somewhat in-theme spell that it could take anyway.

Oh, I might have misunderstood then. I thought people were mocking its thematics.

At the risk of upsetting some here, I responded to the Wildfire UA with saying that I thought Fireball should stay as an iconic arcane spell and not be given to druids, and since that's about the only feedback I gave to all these UAs that I got my wish with, I'll take it. :P

[Dr. Cliché]

Oh, I might have misunderstood then. I thought people were mocking its thematics.

Depends what you mean.

It's arguably on-theme in terms of the general fluff of the class, but it's off-theme mechanically in that the Wildfire Druid's other abilities don't interact with it in any way.

Plus, since it's already a Druid spell, you're not really getting anything that you didn't already have. To put it another way, I don't see it as being more on-theme than it would be for any other Druid.

At the risk of upsetting some here, I responded to the Wildfire UA with saying that I thought Fireball should stay as an iconic arcane spell and not be given to druids, and since that's about the only feedback I gave to all these UAs that I got my wish with, I'll take it. :P

I mean, I'd have settles for Melf's Minute Meteors.

Not as good but at least it would have given an on-theme fire spell at Lv3.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, and bulwark of force is still a pretty niche and awful ability for level 15; unless the party faces swarms of weak enemies often.

Isn't the whole point of the Protoss to tear up zerglings?

I mean, I'd have settles for Melf's Minute Meteors.

One of my players asked about Milf's Minute Meteors, and I asked him if it was a typo. He said no, and as he began to describe the adjusted description I just said "Nope, we are not going there."

[Sception]

"arcane vs. divine" isn't even a thing in 5e. There are classes and some classes have spell lists fitting that class's particular theme and some subclasses have spell lists reflecting the theme of that subclass, particularly where the parent class is lacking spells meeting that theme.

If druid doesn't have a 3rd level fire spell, then the fire themed druid subclass really should have provided one.

Still, at least the pet is pretty cool.

[ProsecutorGodot]

"arcane vs. divine" isn't even a thing in 5e. There are classes and some classes have spell lists fitting that class's particular theme and some subclasses have spell lists reflecting the theme of that subclass, particularly where the parent class is lacking spells meeting that theme.

If druid doesn't have a 3rd level fire spell, then the fire themed druid subclass really should have provided one.

Still, at least the pet is pretty cool.

Mechanically there isn't much distinction, sure, but thematically there certainly is otherwise we wouldn't have subclasses entirely dedicated to crossing those themes, like divine sorcerer/warlock or arcana cleric. Wildfire Druid is notably not crossing those lines.

I don't exactly agree they need a fire spell for every spell level either, their pet is an always on fire source (it's very hot ). The fact that they do have a spell dedicated to their theme (renewal by fire) at every level is good enough.

[ATHATH]

To me, the reason that losing Fireball stings so much for Wildfire Druids was that Fireball synergized so well with the design and toolkit of the Circle of Wildfire subclass.

A big problem for Druids is that their spell list is packed with solid concentration spells, but very, very few (good) non-concentration spells. Basically, once you cast your big concentration spell of the fight, you don't have much left to do with your action other than spam Healing Word, Ice Knife, and maybe Erupting Earth if you have the higher level slots to spare for it. Part of the reason why Moon Druids are so good is that they can use their ability to Wild Shape to make more effective use of their actions while they're concentrating on a spell. The UA!Circle of Wildfire, as its defining mechanical schtick/reason to take it over the other Druid subclasses, adds solid non-concentration blasting spells to the spell lists of Druids who take it, allowing them to spam spells like Scorching Ray and Fireball instead of upcasted Ice Knife and Erupting Earth. It also gives Druids who take it the ability to spend their Wild Shape uses on using their bonus action (!) to summon and control a minion that can increase their damage output in combat further.

Fireball was a large part of this subclass identity, as it was not only an effective, on-theme, and satisfying way to spend your action while concentrating on a spell, but also a spell that synergized with the other features of the subclass, including the bonus fire damage and the fire immune wildfire spirit (who you could happily center your Fireballs on).

Without Fireball, your blasting kind of feels... underwhelming, and more importantly, it feels less thematic, as if you want to do appreciable AoE damage (or even just not be inefficient with your 3rd level spell slots), you're forced to use normal Druid staples like Erupting Earth instead of a cool FIRE-themed spell from the expanded spell list of the FIRE-focused Druid subclass. It's like if Tempest Clerics didn't get Call Lightning (or any good 3rd level spell that dealt lightning damage).

And I don't remember too many people complaining that the Wildfire Druid was too strong back in its UA discussion thread, which makes the decision to kneecap the Circle of Wildfire subclass by stripping the most important spell for the subclass to have from it even more baffling to me.

[micahaphone]

Didn't the UA wildfire also give them the fire bolt cantrip? I understand that nerf, the devs don't want too much scrutiny towards why produce flame and fire bolt exist in the same game.

[P. G. Macer]

Oh, I might have misunderstood then. I thought people were mocking its thematics.

At the risk of upsetting some here, I responded to the Wildfire UA with saying that I thought Fireball should stay as an iconic arcane spell and not be given to druids, and since that's about the only feedback I gave to all these UAs that I got my wish with, I'll take it. :P

No offense, but I would find this argument much more persuasive if A) the distinction between arcane and divine magic in 5e wasn’t almost entirely relegated to a sidebar in chapter 11 of the PHB, and B) if Light Clerics didn't get Fireball already, also in the PHB. I suspect that many wanting Fireball to remain an arcane-only spell aren’t pleased with Light Clerics getting it, but IMO that cat’s already out of the bag.

[TigerT20]

Didn't the UA wildfire also give them the fire bolt cantrip? I understand that nerf, the devs don't want too much scrutiny towards why produce flame and fire bolt exist in the same game.

Well, Produce Flame has the advantage of being able to be used as a light source and the fact that you can hold it - you don't have to attack right away.

Firebolt has the completely overwhelming advantage of utterly outclassing Produce Flame in every single way by doing 1 more damage on average. And having longer range I guess, but who ever cares about range amirite?

Edit: Ok I forgot that the damage gap increases as you level up but... you still caring about 3 or 4 damage either way at level 3+?

[HappyDaze]

Well, Produce Flame has the advantage of being able to be used as a light source and the fact that you can hold it - you don't have to attack right away.

Firebolt has the completely overwhelming advantage of utterly outclassing Produce Flame in every single way by doing 1 more damage on average. And having longer range I guess, but who ever cares about range amirite?

Edit: Ok I forgot that the damage gap increases as you level up but... you still caring about 3 or 4 damage either way at level 3+?

Based on the action economy, produce flame being able to be held doesn't actually provide any advantage.

Firebolt also has the advantage that it can target objects. Produce flame cannot target (and thus ignite) things like a puddle of oil, a funeral pyre, or a bundle of sticks you want to use to start a campfire.

[MaxWilson]

Mine is Arsine gas, to interject. Flammable toxins are fun, speaking from the same spiritual plane as dwarf fortress.

I'm sure its just a matter of time before someone pops up with an even more ridiculous example though, like psychic damage setting fires or radiant damage healing undead.

[thinks] How about Thunder hailstones from Ice Storm?

[Yakmala]

Having had more time to read through TCoE, I found one more disappointment. Tattoos.

I've been allowing the UA tattoos in my home game and the players were really enjoying them. One of the unique things about Tattoos was that they were limited by space on your body more than attunement. All tattoos counted as a single attunement slot, but the rarer the tatoo, the more space it took up on your body.

In TCoE, each tattoo appears to be its own attunement slot. There are a number of minor tattoos that were worth it under the old system as part of a collection of tattoos, but individually, are not worth one of a character's three attunement slots. And, you are still bound by the space they take up on your body as well.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Having had more time to read through TCoE, I found one more disappointment. Tattoos.

I've been allowing the UA tattoos in my home game and the players were really enjoying them. One of the unique things about Tattoos was that they were limited by space on your body more than attunement. All tattoos counted as a single attunement slot, but the rarer the tatoo, the more space it took up on your body.

In TCoE, each tattoo appears to be its own attunement slot. There are a number of minor tattoos that were worth it under the old system as part of a collection of tattoos, but individually, are not worth one of a character's three attunement slots. And, you are still bound by the space they take up on your body as well.

Unless you're running a campaign with heavy magic item rewards it's probably not going to be a frequent issue with characters having items competing for their attunement slots.

[micahaphone]

Based on the action economy, produce flame being able to be held doesn't actually provide any advantage.

Firebolt also has the advantage that it can target objects. Produce flame cannot target (and thus ignite) things like a puddle of oil, a funeral pyre, or a bundle of sticks you want to use to start a campfire.

Thank you for the reminder about the ridiculous finer points of the spell targeting system. I know magic doesn't follow real world logic but I love the idea of a druid sticking a blazing hand into a pile of oil soaked hay and nothing happens. Or a warlock that's suspicious of some intimidating statues, so they point their EB finger guns at them. No magic occurs, proving that they're objects not creatures.

[MrCharlie]

Oh thank goodness, someone else said it! Every time the complaint came up, part of me was thinking "Really, the entire reason this appealed to you was 'I can do 8d6 fire damage at level 5'?"

The real complaint is that fireball let you use your level 6 feature on a worthwhile damage spell. Given the once-per-spell nonsense we have baked into this edition and the crippling lack of fire damage that isn't concentration on the druid list, there are few ways to effectively use the 1d8 damage aspect of the feature. Fireball let you do it, now we either need to do it inefficiently with scorching ray, a weak AOE like burning hands, or a concentration spell where we get one use out of it for the entire cast. Or we need to take the metamagic spell to transmute some fire spells into being a couple times per day, I guess.

Fireball scaled well, was an AOE action, and used the feature effectively. There really just aren't any other spells that do.

This squarely falls into the "as a DM I'd modify to do this" camp, but for the Soulknife they should have some method like pact of the blade to bond with a magic weapon, applying its magic to their psi knives. Maybe it takes attunement, and maybe you can only do it with a dagger or short sword or something.

As a DM I'd maybe instead make the enchantment of weapons transferable, so a monk or soulknife player can take a +1 longsword, do some ritual or work with an npc alchemist, and transfer the +1-ness onto their fists or their psi blades or what have you.

Or just make magic items that do that automatically like a necklace or ring, maybe even a magic tattoo! I've never personally played with someone who complained about the verisimilitude of tailored magic items in hoards, but I know some people do, hence the enchantment transference suggestion.

------------------------------------------
And I agree that losing Fireball really sucks, but Revivify is a great alternate pickup that Druid can't normally use. Very on theme too. I think there's enough other cool stuff in the class to make it worthwhile to play. This is the first Druid class that I've been interested in playing.

I absolutely agree on both points. The learned this lesson before the edition started which is why you can bond magic items with blade pact, how did this not transfer to soul blades in some capacity?

[cutlery]

Isn't the whole point of the Protoss to tear up zerglings?

Never cared much for starcraft.

Anyway; I'd have much rather had bulwark available at, say, 7 - but then they'd have no feature for 15 (suggestion!)

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyway; I'd have much rather had bulwark available at, say, 7 - but then they'd have no feature for 15 (suggestion!)

A great many classes/sub classes have features that come on latet (original Ranger Evasion for example) that would be rather handy during normal play (Tier 1 and 2).
I am now off to build more pylons ...

[cutlery]

A great many classes/sub classes have features that come on latet (original Ranger Evasion for example) that would be rather handy during normal play (Tier 1 and 2).
I am now off to build more pylons ...

I think in some cases that's for balance reasons (or based on old balance reasons) - the ranger shouldn't be better at evasion than the rogue - but evasion is evasion, so we'll give it to them later.

OTOH, a lot of the latter features for fighters in particular are pretty bad.

Blah blah blah, the base class is strong enough. Fine. Give them some cool social stuff for the 15th and 18th level features, then.

[Warder]

No offense, but I would find this argument much more persuasive if A) the distinction between arcane and divine magic in 5e wasn’t almost entirely relegated to a sidebar in chapter 11 of the PHB, and B) if Light Clerics didn't get Fireball already, also in the PHB. I suspect that many wanting Fireball to remain an arcane-only spell aren’t pleased with Light Clerics getting it, but IMO that cat’s already out of the bag.

Absolutely no offense taken, I get that point of view too. But - and no offense meant here either - I'm not trying to make that argument to you (or anyone else) either. I know most people don't care about the distinction, and that's fine. I do care about it, and I'm happy that it still exists as a loose theme even if spells aren't explicitely tagged arcane or divine either. That's why I was opposed to giving fireball to druids in the UA, and why I'm happy that it's one of the few UA things which ended up going "my way". I'm not trying to persuade anyone to not be upset with that change, I know I'm certainly upset with a bunch of things in Tasha's myself.

[Hael]

Fireball scaled well, was an AOE action, and used the feature effectively. There really just aren't any other spells that do.

It was perhaps a bit much for tier 2 play. A wildfire druid could send his standard summon spells to wipe out one arena entrance worth of incoming enemies, and turn around and wipe out the second group of incoming with fireball + his features.

If they got fireball a bit later in the game, that would be fine.

[Pex]

Just realized something. Tasha does not give Sorcerer the popular UA ability to change one spell known after a long rest. Changing a metamagic or cantrip is good, but changing a spell known was a Nice Thing not granted.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think in some cases that's for balance reasons (or based on old balance reasons) - the ranger shouldn't be better at evasion than the rogue v

Let us agree to disagree, then.

[micahaphone]

Just realized something. Tasha does not give Sorcerer the popular UA ability to change one spell known after a long rest. Changing a metamagic or cantrip is good, but changing a spell known was a Nice Thing not granted.

What are you talking about, wizards can now swap cantrips on a long rest. Same thing, right?

[Arkhios]

What are you talking about, wizards can now swap cantrips on a long rest. Same thing, right?

Sorcerer ≠ Wizard. Different classes, different rules. Although literature, movies, and tv-shows often use those names interchangeably, in D&D they convey different purposes.

[Razgriez]

Psi Warrior is definitely on the disappointment side: "Oh, you basically gave me Psionic-Flavor Battle Master. Its a good thing Battle Master didn't get anything in this bo... oh they did? Well its a good thing that I have a Psi Dice which I can keep using all day long so long as I....oh they changed that too? So now its 2x PB +1? Only recharges on a Long rest while Battlemaster needs only a Short Rest Breather or a new encounter? And Battle Master can now use their dice for Social/Exploration encounters?"

Its not that its terrible (if anything, Psi Warrior has decent Defensive/Battlefield Control options), its just that it doesn't offer a whole lot outside of some exploration and combat, and asks you to pick up Intelligence as an additional core Attribute just for a few modifier bonuses to its Psi Dice abilities. Still, at least its 3-level Dip consideration for others

Soulknife is great in a low magic-item campaign, and terrible the first second any magic weapon shows up for the Rogue. DMs are pretty much going to have to come up with custom magic items for the Psi-Blade or some sort of house rule for those Soul Knifes. The only good news is, you now have a better way to play a Thrown-Weapon user since you don't have to worry about collecting your knives afterwards. 9th is where the fun ends and your cue to stick around only long enough to get Reliable Talent and jump ship, before you reach 13th/17th and are forced to ask yourself "Why didn't I just simply play an Arcane Trickster/Monk?", respectively.

I like the magic items they added, but its a shame that the physical focused classes didn't really get anything specific for them.