Help me love the sorcerer

[bendking]

I enjoy the versatility of the wizard, and, as pointed out above, I've never played a sorcerer past level 5. I really think that might be the issue because it seems like the class comes into it's own when you can fiddle with sorcery points.

If you enjoy versatility, the Sorcerer is not the class for you. Sorcerers thrive on specialization using their Metamagic.
That said, the Clockwork Sorcerer can get an amazing and rather versatile list if that's what you're into.

[Nhorianscum]

I want to play to the classes strengths and get a different flavor than the wizard.

If I can't be convinced, I'll keep on wizarding.

Sorc is just grotesquely powerful with any degree of play optimization off of the overcast base in tier 2 onwards. Adding in MA and the new origins just makes them feel genuinely oppressive to an unhealthy degree.

Just roll one up and make it to tier 2.

[Asisreo1]

2 things are required to enjoy playing your sorcerer:

1. You must have a niche you wish to fill; be it blasting, crowd control, social manipulation/trickery or buffing. You might be able to fill 2, maybe 3 of these niches at higher levels (when you get your third metamagic at level 10). No longer are you the generalist you're used to in a wizard.


2. You must have another spell caster in the group who can fill in the gaps you will leave (not very hard).

Human Variant with Ritual Caster(Wizard) as their bonus feat at level 1 will probably help you make the transition.

If you want the real shenanigans though, Half-Elf with Actor at level 4 mixed with Disguise Self and Subtle spell is top tier hijinks. If there is already a wizard to cast rituals this becomes an easy choice to make.

Might I also humbly suggest the Draconic Sorcerer with Subtle and Empowered. It has built in mage armor and the +1 hp makes you feel like a d8 hit dice.

Make sure you pick up Firebolt, Suggestion Fireball and Wall of Fire.

Remember to transition out old spells with each level.

If Subtle isn't your cup of tea then careful spell is pretty great for crowd control spells (No more suggestion if you do opt for careful). Hypnotic Pattern and Fear in particular are rather unwieldy and being able to just drop one down without worrying about hitting allies is mint. Synaptic Static is also fantastic; despite still dealing half damage to allies, the crippling debuff is no longer an issue for them and Invoker wizards can't sculpt it anyway because it's an enchantment.

If you get comfortable with things like subtle suggestion and subtle counterspell you'll be hooked though. Disguise self and things like telekinesis, animate objects or even just phantasmal force for assassinations is exceedingly strong.

I suppose now is as good a time as any to plug my guide....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxH...BISzZxMzQ/view

To help with the versatility, do not forget cantrips.

At lower levels, cantrips are amazing since you'll have so few spell slots to actually cast your spells. Spells like Minor Illusion and Prestidigation are extremely versatile and taking those leaves room for an attack cantrip like Firebolt and another utility cantrip like Light, Mending, Mage Hand, or Message.

These cantrips are also snappy. They give good effects with only an action compared to the relative waiting that needs to happen with rituals.

People forget to consider cantrips as spells. When you do, you realize that sorcerers have exactly the same number of spells as a bard up until level 10 (where the bard gets 1 more spell/cantrip than sorcerer while they get metamagic).

The cantrips that sorcerers trade for spells known are weaker than spells, but can definitely be spammed more around this tier.

Past level 11, sorcerers soar (some subclasses do so literally). With 3 metamagics, 6 cantrips, 11 sorcery points, tons of spell slots to manipulate and a more comfortable spells known, you can really start feeling like you have game-changing powers just as the wizard does. Where the wizard relies on their versatility of the spell list, you can lean into the versatility of your spells.

Distant Mass Suggestion for 240ft of cult movements, Quicken Sunbeam for a quick 12d8 damage, Heightened Hold Monster, Twinned Greater Invisibility.

Possibilities can be endless for a sorcerer, it just takes creativity and a good sense of tactics.

[Amechra]

I'll disagree that Sorcerer blasters are bad. There are builds and metamagics that work. Fire Dragon sorcerers with Empower can cast fireball (the best mid level blaster spell in the game) with roughly 40% more damage than other casters. Empower is cheap (1sp), so you can do that with every casting, and that leaves you another good metamagic to take at the points to use it.

My one concern with Sorcerer blasters is that they have so few spells known - they really have to commit to blasting in a way that other casters don't have to.

Take a 6th level Light Cleric, Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer, and Evoker Wizard. Let's say they all want to blast with Fireball.

• The Cleric literally gets it for free, alongside the other 5 domain spells they have at that point and the 6+Wis other prepared spells they can draw on. We're looking at 15 or so spells here.
• The Wizard has 14 spells in their spellbook, and can prepare 6+Int of them at once.
• The Sorcerer has to spend one of their 7 spells known on Fireball.

Is being able to deal 40% more damage with Fireball enough to counteract the fact that each spell known is at least twice as valuable for you at this point in your career?

Your math is a bit off here. A sorcerer can only have as many Sorcery Points as their max at any given time so a 10th level sorcerer can only have 10 (12 if you've got Metamagic Adept but those extra 2 can only be use for metamagic).

Loading up on slots ahead of time is doable, but doing it in combat is clunky. It takes a bonus action to drop a spell slot and a bonus action to create a spell slot so for example dropping a 3rd level slots and a 4th level slot to get 7 sorcery points to create 1 5th level slot takes 3 rounds. If done ahead of time a 10th level sorcerer can make it so they have 7 5th level slots.

10th level sorcerer has 2 5th level slots to begin the. Then using 7 of their 10 sorcery points he can create a 3rd one. Next by dropping his 3rd and 4th level slots he can create 3 more. Last he can get the 7th one by dropping all 2nd level slots and 1 1st level slot. At this point he has 7 5th level slots 3 1st level slots and 3 sorcery points to use in what ever coming fight. Not sure what you'd be planning with that, but that may depend on your spell selection.

1) Spend 7 sorcery points to make a 5th level spell.
2) Convert spell slots to refill the points you just spent.
3) ???
4) You have six 5th level spell slots.

My point was that you're doing it ahead of time (hence the "with forewarning" caveat), and I stopped them at six slots because that's how many you can get while still having a mostly full pool of sorcery points (so you can use metamagic on those boosted slots).

[TheUser]

Is being able to deal 40% more damage with Fireball enough to counteract the fact that each spell known is at least twice as valuable for you at this point in your career?

It's more accurate to describe it as +70% on the minimum damage and +20% on the maximum.

Semi-advanced probabilities time.

TL;DR it boils down to consistency not being demonstrated when you only analyze percentages and averages.

Average fireball damage of 28 is an over simplification. It is more accurate to say that in just over ~90% of situations fireball deals 20-36 damage.

Draconic bonus of +4-5 is easy to do.

20-36 becomes 25-41 (or 24-40 if you want to get stingy)

But when empower is factored in, increasing the base line damage of 28 average up to ~33 we must remember that its primarily operating on the low end of our expected values; doing the heavy lifting from the bottom of the spectrum (because you only re-roll low dice rolls).

So while it averages 33 damage, it becomes far more accurate to say that it now does 28-38 damage. Our new low end was our old average and after we factor in Draconic Bonuses it's suddenly a Fireball that deals 34-43 damage.

Your weakest Draconic Empowered Fireballs are as strong as the high end of a normal fireball.

You don't have to worry about rolling badly and flubbing a whole spell slot AND the turn used to cast it.

[Amechra]

That's... not strictly accurate. Your weakest Fireball still deals less than another caster's average fireball, since Empowered Spell doesn't stop you from rolling 1s on the reroll. Sure, the range of likely values goes up, but you still have the same minimum as a Draconic Sorcerer without Empowered Spell, as well as the same maximum.

Let me see if I can follow your logic, though:

Instead of looking at the averages, we're looking at the range within (roughly) two standard deviations from the mean. So instead of looking at it as "Fireball deals 28 damage on average", we're looking at it as "Fireball deals between 19-37 damage roughly 95% of the time." So far, so straight-forward.

However, I'll be honest - I don't actually know how to properly calculate the effects of Empowered Spell. With the average, you can just replace 3.5 with 4.25 for the dice you're rerolling. Care to specify how you're handling that?

[Kane0]

I enjoy the versatility of the wizard, and, as pointed out above, I've never played a sorcerer past level 5. I really think that might be the issue because it seems like the class comes into it's own when you can fiddle with sorcery points.

Yes, having enough SP to work with is a big factor. Another is having the metamagic to make the most of the fewer spells you have. Taling the Tashas Metamagic feat will double your metamagic known for the biggest portion of your character’s career plus an extra two SP on top, dramatically improving your ability to squeeze your spells for all they’re worth. The Tashas subclasses also give you bonus spells which is even better.

If you dont have Tasha’s or dont want to go down that path, Shadow gives you one bonus spell plus a pseudo-metamagic with the hound whereas Draconic gives you a few features that mostly replicate spells that you wont then have to worry about like False Life and Mage Armor. Favored soul on the other hand makes a whole second spell list available to you, so while its just as constrained on spells known you have a somewhat unique abikity to cherrypick from both the arcane and divine sides then abuse both with metamagic.
Wild and Storm magic... eh. You can if you want and they aren’t bad, I just can’t say much about them personally.

So sorcerers generally have less versatility moment-to-moment but more options to explore while building your character. This also means you can mess it up easier, so you do have to know what you want.

If all else fails, ask your DM about spell points. Spell Points with a sorcerer really, really makes you FEEL the way the sorc is described.

[Nhorianscum]

That's... not strictly accurate. Your weakest Fireball still deals less than another caster's average fireball, since Empowered Spell doesn't stop you from rolling 1s on the reroll. Sure, the range of likely values goes up, but you still have the same minimum as a Draconic Sorcerer without Empowered Spell, as well as the same maximum.

Let me see if I can follow your logic, though:

Instead of looking at the averages, we're looking at the range within (roughly) two standard deviations from the mean. So instead of looking at it as "Fireball deals 28 damage on average", we're looking at it as "Fireball deals between 19-37 damage roughly 95% of the time." So far, so straight-forward.

However, I'll be honest - I don't actually know how to properly calculate the effects of Empowered Spell. With the average, you can just replace 3.5 with 4.25 for the dice you're rerolling. Care to specify how you're handling that?

+12% to the average is the rule of thumb for empowered.

A base draconic sorc in tier 2 really does just hit like a truck loaded with other trucks and only really needs two spells to blast effectively leaving plenty of room for BC and Buffing which is where we get our baseline generalist sorc from.

Empowering a 5th level fireball/Sray+twinned empowered firebolt rotation at 7th level is certainly a damage based nova that rivals fully optimized paladins and fighters. Except you're playing a character with 4th level spells and 4-5 spellslots devoted to BC/Buffing/Social shenanigans.

It's hard to say that draconic blasters are bad.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I banned it. No regrets. Why?

Its the most ridiculous thing, seems like the product of the esteem generation.

"I'm special! I didn't study, I don't obey a god (or patron), but I'm entitled to all the power on the same level as the wizard who went to college or the cleric that studied AND prays fervently for their spells. I am more deadly than a bard, who ALSO went to college.

"So I gave up NOTHING to have EVERYTHING along with a bunch of tweaky game-slowing mechanics that all my party members LOVE to hear me talk about in a fight.

"I have a shorter spell list because I can't be bothered to learn (as a player) the spell list like a wizard player MUST. I get the second most used (CHA) stat in the game as my social AND combat skill (suck it, martials!). I get to join the warlock in asking to take a short rest AFTER EVERY FIGHT because my sorc points are ALWAYS USED UP in every fight.

"In short, I'm the best!"

[Amechra]

I get to join the warlock in asking to take a short rest AFTER EVERY FIGHT because my sorc points are ALWAYS USED UP in every fight.

but sorcery points recharge on a long rest though.

[Sception]

Its the most ridiculous thing, seems like the product of the esteem generation.

The wizard and cleric are willful delusions, fever dreams born of inferiority complexes, infantile morality plays that that those in power have power because they 'deserve it' or 'worked for it' or were blessed with it by 'a higher power', that they came to it by being better, smarter, more moral. That the deserving will be rewarded with power and therefore the powerful are deserving. That the world is just by default and thus the existence of power is its own moral justification.

The ugly truth of the world, the truth that the sorcerer and warlock don't hide from, is that those who have power came by it in one of two ways only. Either they were born to it through exactly zero merit of their own, or else they debased themselves and others to steal it. That Power is not merely unjustified but inherently unjustifiable.

[Corran]

The wizard and cleric are willful delusions, fever dreams born of inferiority complexes, infantile morality plays that that those in power have power because they 'deserve it' or 'worked for it' or were blessed with it by 'a higher power', that they came to it by being better, smarter, more moral. That the deserving will be rewarded with power and therefore the powerful are deserving. That the world is just by default and thus the existence of power is its own moral justification.

The ugly truth of the world, the truth that the sorcerer and warlock don't hide from, is that those who have power came by it in one of two ways only. Either they were born to it through exactly zero merit of their own, or else they debased themselves and others to steal it. That Power is not merely unjustified but inherently unjustifiable.

Wait.... Does that make wizards the embodiment of dnd capitalism? Try hard enough and if you are lucky (ie dont die during adventuring), one day you'll have the most powerful spells in existence and more spells than anyone else?
Smite trigger happy paladins are part time workers?
Draconic sorcerers are inheritors of a vast fortune and wild magic sorcerers are people who won the jackpot?
Warlocks are fall guys for organized crime maybe? Might have been carried away a little.

[TheUser]

That's... not strictly accurate. Your weakest Fireball still deals less than another caster's average fireball, since Empowered Spell doesn't stop you from rolling 1s on the reroll. Sure, the range of likely values goes up, but you still have the same minimum as a Draconic Sorcerer without Empowered Spell, as well as the same maximum.

Let me see if I can follow your logic, though:

Instead of looking at the averages, we're looking at the range within (roughly) two standard deviations from the mean. So instead of looking at it as "Fireball deals 28 damage on average", we're looking at it as "Fireball deals between 19-37 damage roughly 95% of the time." So far, so straight-forward.

However, I'll be honest - I don't actually know how to properly calculate the effects of Empowered Spell. With the average, you can just replace 3.5 with 4.25 for the dice you're rerolling. Care to specify how you're handling that?

It mostly has to do with what are we empowering in a standard 8d6 distribution coupled with it's given potential to raise our damage.

Low end rolls not only have a higher chance of having a good amount of dice to be empowered but also stand to gain more damage from a re-roll because they are more likely able to re-roll more dice (there are more 1's and 2's in an 8d6 that becomes 21 than there are in a roll that vecomes 30)

It becomes easier to conceptualize if you think of each sum that you could conceivably roll as an array of values with varying number dice outcome frequencies; not only how likely is that roll to happen but now how often that roll is likely to contain a 1 or 2. You then redistribute along those two ratios and create a whole new distribution.

I like to consider the new average 4.17 (instead of 4.25) because I tend not to re-roll 3's.

So even though we have the same chance of getting say a 1 or 2 from the last time we rolled we also have the same 66% chance to roll better than 1 or 2. If we are making that roll more often and with more potential for improvement on the low end of the spectrum the numbers it creates have gone through a weighted normalization effect (re-rolling a single 1 or 2 has a only a 66.7-83.3% to improve our damage but re-rolling even 1 more of those now has a 89.1%-97.2% to improve our damage and by the addition of the third re-roll it's now a 96.5%-99.95% chance of improving our damage).

And if you recall, the whole point of 21-35 as a damage range is to evalutae the 90% of scenarios. It just turns out that within that ssme subset more opportunitues to improve damage by more fall in the low range

Each die becomes it's own subset of standard deviations but only one third of the time (re-rolling 1's and 2's).

In essence, my weakest fireball is so statistically unlikely it falls out of relevance.

Have I helped to explain it?

Also the guy who's saying empower is only a 12% increase is 100% wrong :P maybe if they discussed their methodology I could do a better job deconstructing it but your average goes from (1+2+3+4+5+6) / 6 = 3.5 to (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6) / 6 which equals 4.17 or a 19% increase.

[sophontteks]

2 things are required to enjoy playing your sorcerer:

1. You must have a niche you wish to fill; be it blasting, crowd control, social manipulation/trickery or buffing. You might be able to fill 2, maybe 3 of these niches at higher levels (when you get your third metamagic at level 10). No longer are you the generalist you're used to in a wizard.


2. You must have another spell caster in the group who can fill in the gaps you will leave (not very hard).

Human Variant with Ritual Caster(Wizard) as their bonus feat at level 1 will probably help you make the transition.

If you want the real shenanigans though, Half-Elf with Actor at level 4 mixed with Disguise Self and Subtle spell is top tier hijinks. If there is already a wizard to cast rituals this becomes an easy choice to make.

Might I also humbly suggest the Draconic Sorcerer with Subtle and Empowered. It has built in mage armor and the +1 hp makes you feel like a d8 hit dice.

Make sure you pick up Firebolt, Suggestion Fireball and Wall of Fire.

Remember to transition out old spells with each level.

If Subtle isn't your cup of tea then careful spell is pretty great for crowd control spells (No more suggestion if you do opt for careful). Hypnotic Pattern and Fear in particular are rather unwieldy and being able to just drop one down without worrying about hitting allies is mint. Synaptic Static is also fantastic; despite still dealing half damage to allies, the crippling debuff is no longer an issue for them and Invoker wizards can't sculpt it anyway because it's an enchantment.

If you get comfortable with things like subtle suggestion and subtle counterspell you'll be hooked though. Disguise self and things like telekinesis, animate objects or even just phantasmal force for assassinations is exceedingly strong.

I suppose now is as good a time as any to plug my guide....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxH...BISzZxMzQ/view

TheUser:
The myth.
The man.
The legend!

Can't wait for you to break down all the new sorcerer stuff. I've been looking and it seems like they got a ton of love.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It mostly has to do with what are we empowering in a standard 8d6 distribution coupled with it's given potential to raise our damage.

Low end rolls not only have a higher chance of having a good amount of dice to be empowered but also stand to gain more damage from a re-roll because they are more likely able to re-roll more dice (there are more 1's and 2's in an 8d6 that becomes 21 than there are in a roll that vecomes 30)

It becomes easier to conceptualize if you think of each sum that you could conceivably roll as an array of values with varying number dice outcome frequencies; not only how likely is that roll to happen but now how often that roll is likely to contain a 1 or 2. You then redistribute along those two ratios and create a whole new distribution.

I like to consider the new average 4.17 (instead of 4.25) because I tend not to re-roll 3's.

So even though we have the same chance of getting say a 1 or 2 from the last time we rolled we also have the same 66% chance to roll better than 1 or 2. If we are making that roll more often and with more potential for improvement on the low end of the spectrum the numbers it creates have gone through a weighted normalization effect (re-rolling a single 1 or 2 has a only a 66.7-83.3% to improve our damage but re-rolling even 1 more of those now has a 89.1%-97.2% to improve our damage and by the addition of the third re-roll it's now a 96.5%-99.95% chance of improving our damage).

And if you recall, the whole point of 21-35 as a damage range is to evalutae the 90% of scenarios. It just turns out that within that ssme subset more opportunitues to improve damage by more fall in the low range

Each die becomes it's own subset of standard deviations but only one third of the time (re-rolling 1's and 2's).

In essence, my weakest fireball is so statistically unlikely it falls out of relevance.

Have I helped to explain it?

Also the guy who's saying empower is only a 12% increase is 100% wrong :P maybe if they discussed their methodology I could do a better job deconstructing it but your average goes from (1+2+3+4+5+6) / 6 = 3.5 to (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6) / 6 which equals 4.17 or a 19% increase.

Your last paragraph is a good explanation. I will re-roll a 3 if I can. Tack on the 5 more points for Draconic and you have a solid improvement. The other beauty of this is you only use the sorcery points if it's advantageous; if you happen to roll well nothing is lost.

[TheUser]

TheUser:
The myth.
The man.
The legend!

Can't wait for you to break down all the new sorcerer stuff. I've been looking and it seems like they got a ton of love.

You honor me.

As for the new subclasses both are nutso in the butso; Aberrant mind is a social manipulation god (subtle modified memories wut?) And Clockwork's freebie options for Abjuration and Transmutation from the Wizard and Warlock list are great, seriously possible to have 4 metamagics by level 3 and have enough spells to use them all! I am still unsure how worth it a Tasha's chapter would be given how it's all optional anyway....

[sophontteks]

You honor me.

As for the new subclasses both are nutso in the butso; Aberrant mind is a social manipulation god (subtle modified memories wut?) And Clockwork's freebie options for Abjuration and Transmutation from the Wizard and Warlock list are great, seriously possible to have 4 metamagics by level 3 and have enough spells to use them all! I am still unsure how worth it a Tasha's chapter would be given how it's all optional anyway....

Yeah I thought it was strange they made it all optional, but then I thought about it. Like, feats are optional too, but I've yet to see a game play without them. By graduating this stuff to a honest to gosh published book, I'm betting it's all going to be allowed by most DMs, even those optional extra features (reroll a check for 1 metamagic!)

The new metamagics looked a bit weak though.

[bendking]

Yeah I thought it was strange they made it all optional, but then I thought about it. Like, feats are optional too, but I've yet to see a game play without them. By graduating this stuff to a honest to gosh published book, I'm betting it's all going to be allowed by most DMs, even those optional extra features (reroll a check for 1 metamagic!)

The new metamagics looked a bit weak though.

Transmuted spell can often get you a 100% increase in damage if you use it to dodge resistances, and even 300% if used to dodge a resistance and target a vulnerability, as opposed to Empowered's consistent 19%.
It's also great for Tempest/Zeal cleric MC with Sorcerer.
Unerring Spell sucks though.

[Nhorianscum]

Also the guy who's saying empower is only a 12% increase is 100% wrong :P maybe if they discussed their methodology I could do a better job deconstructing it but your average goes from (1+2+3+4+5+6) / 6 = 3.5 to (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6) / 6 which equals 4.17 or a 19% increase.

Oh, I use super extra ridiculously upcast spells as my baseline as that's where I value using a metamagic slot on damage boosting rather than just upcasting.

The value shifts based on die size, and number of die so dramatically that I'm not really bothered by the difference in standards for eyeballing.

I'm also super lazy and just treat it as a scalar bonus based on die size at extremely high (15 or more die) or extremely low (hex/MM) values.

[sophontteks]

Transmuted spell can often get you a 100% increase in damage if you use it to dodge resistances, and even 300% if used to dodge a resistance and target a vulnerability, as opposed to Empowered's consistent 19%.
It's also great for Tempest/Zeal cleric MC with Sorcerer.
Unerring Spell sucks though.

You're right I undervalued sorcerer blasters and overlooked this. It's actually a great option for blasters, especially draconic ones.

[Klorox]

So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?

[noob]

You're right I undervalued sorcerer blasters and overlooked this. It's actually a great option for blasters, especially draconic ones.

It is a great option especially because fireball is very strong but very resisted (fire is one of the most common resistances)

So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?

Sorcerer also opens up options to make your gm terribly angry by skipping the social game with careful spell on a mind control spell and other similar tricks.

[Asisreo1]

So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?

If a spellcaster needs to cast a spell, between the wizard and sorcerer, you'd probably want the sorcerer to do it.

For instance, invisibility. If both the wizard and sorcerer had invisibility, a sorcerer could extended it, twin it, distance it, subtle it and quicken it. Extending it is like casting it twice, effectively saving a spell slot. Twinning it is effectively upcasting it. Distance it if you can't quite touch your target. Subtle it so that you don't blow your cover casting the spell. And quicken it to dash/hide on the same turn.

Further than that, if you were a 3rd level wizard that casted invisibility, you have 1 2nd-level spell slot until a short rest, period. As a sorcerer, if you need 2 or even 3 more 2nd-level spells, you can cast them. It's overall less efficient, but this is in the case of needs and understanding costs v. Benefits.

[Kane0]

So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?

Well, if thats what you want to do with one yeah.

They can also be super efficient buffers, certified battlefield controllers or unmatched social manipulators.
But they cant do it all at once, nor flip between them with a long rest. You have to pick one or two to excel at or you will stretch yourself too thin and feel mediocre at all of them.

[Nhorianscum]

So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?

It's more that sorcerers are dedicated Nova characters.

They're not restricted to using this nova for damage, in fact they can nova off in any imaginable situation in just about any way and do not need to nova to function. That said they are very much defined by these explosive moments.

[Klorox]

Consider my interest piqued.

Now, it's been said a couple of times that I might've given up on the sorcerer a bit too early, as I have only tried them on low levels.

What level cap would you say is as low as you'd go and still consider sorcerer?

For instance, is it "worth" playing a sorcerer if the game only goes to level 6? 8? 10?

I suppose now is as good a time as any to plug my guide....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxH...BISzZxMzQ/view

I love your guide, I've read it a few times. I just never experienced anything above tier 1 and got a bit fed up. Might be the players I was around though.

[Kireban]

Consider my interest piqued.

Now, it's been said a couple of times that I might've given up on the sorcerer a bit too early, as I have only tried them on low levels.

What level cap would you say is as low as you'd go and still consider sorcerer?

For instance, is it "worth" playing a sorcerer if the game only goes to level 6? 8? 10?



I love your guide, I've read it a few times. I just never experienced anything above tier 1 and got a bit fed up. Might be the players I was around though.

What do you want to do with your character? And what sub do you think of?

[Kane0]

Probably level 5, thats the earliest you can twin Haste, Empower Fireball, Subtle Counterspell, etc. and you have an ASI at your disposal at that point too.

But before that you could still be a quicken blaster, extend buffer or subtle manipulator, just a bit less often (like any tier 1 caster really)

[sophontteks]

The big issue (which isn't true for the newest subclasses) is the lack of access to good low-level spells.

[TheUser]

Level 3: subtle suggestion

Gotta get 'em hooked early.