Help me love the sorcerer

[Klorox]

What do you want to do with your character? And what sub do you think of?

I'm really not sure what I'm trying to accomplish with this character yet. Heck, that might even be part of the problem.

As for what type of sorcerer, I really dig that new clockwork one. It looks like a lot of fun and seems to have a bit more versatility than earlier sorcerers.

[Nhorianscum]

Consider my interest piqued.

Now, it's been said a couple of times that I might've given up on the sorcerer a bit too early, as I have only tried them on low levels.

What level cap would you say is as low as you'd go and still consider sorcerer?

For instance, is it "worth" playing a sorcerer if the game only goes to level 6? 8? 10?

The MA feat makes sorc playable in tier 1 so there's no longer a floor on the class.

That said, the class is at its best in a 1-11 campain.

[Naerytar]

Sorcerers have some really good multiclass options.


Warlock 2 (pick your favorite) / Sorcerer X (Divine Soul):
Eldritch Blast + Spiritual Weapon means three attacks at lvl 5, all based off CHA. And you still have concentration to put out your favorite party buff. Bless, twinned Haste, twinned Shield of Faith. Even twinned Protection from Evil and Good can be incredible when you are fighting the right monsters.
Meanwhile you're also a great healer, as both Cure Wounds and Healing Word can be twinned. Take Inspiring Leader for even more party buffs.


Paladin 2 or 6 depening on the campaigns level range / Sorcerer X (any subclass):
Just an all around great character. Quite tanky thanks to Shield, smite for days, etc


Fighter 1 or 2 / Sorcerer X (Draconic or Divine Soul):
Great Gish. Maybe Hill Dwarf for more HP. CHA 14 really is enough if you pick the right spells. Shield, Absorb Elements, Haste, Greater Invisibility and so on. The are a lot of spells that don't require a high casting stat.
Or take the Archery fighting style and do some Crossbow Expert stuff. That gives you high damage even when you've used all your spell slots.


With all of these character you have an above average CHA score, so with some skill proficiencies you are always useful in social situations.
What's not to love? ;)

[Aimeryan]

Sorcerers shine where they can cheese. Cheese here is breaking the rules that exist to limit spellcasters. Metamagic is literally designed to circumvent these rules. Based on the OP this class is probably not for you.

For example. Take subtle spell. Why do V, M, and S primarily exist? So wizards can't cast spells in broad daylight in the middle of a crowd.

Well sorcerers don't care.

Hey try subtle casting 'enemies abound' on someone in the middle of a crowd sometime. Grab some popcorn!

Try subtle casting an illusion or, even better, phantasmal force. Get stopped by bandits? PF the bandit leader being attacked by bees. They will probably leave you alone, and take a hefty 10d6 over 1 minute.

Sorcerers break rules and abuse the crap out of a small selection of spells. Again, if you don't like cheesing spells, look elsewhere. They have so frw spells they basically ask "how can I abuse the same spell in this situation?" Rather then picking the right spell for the occasion.

I'm not surprised you used Subtle for this argument - it is really the only one that fits. Twin is so hampered by restrictions that it is difficult to cheese and the best uses are for empowering martials rather than the Sorcerer, Quicken has the cantrip restriction, Extended and Distant are meh, Heightened and Empowered are ok but do not cheese anything, and Careful is a poor-man's Sculpt.

To be honest, the proposed Feat for taking a Metamagic would do 90% of the cheese that is being suggested to take the Sorcerer for, because it really is all in the Subtle. I do note that a number of the other Metamagic choices do gain a lot of cheese value for other classes (try Twinning buffs as a Sorcadin paired with a Rogue, and Quickening those Booming Blades), but the Sorcerer class itself is just too poor of a chassis to make much use of them.

[bendking]

I'm not surprised you used Subtle for this argument - it is really the only one that fits. Twin is so hampered by restrictions that it is difficult to cheese and the best uses are for empowering martials rather than the Sorcerer, Quicken has the cantrip restriction, Extended and Distant are meh, Heightened and Empowered are ok but do not cheese anything, and Careful is a poor-man's Sculpt.

To be honest, the proposed Feat for taking a Metamagic would do 90% of the cheese that is being suggested to take the Sorcerer for, because it really is all in the Subtle. I do note that a number of the other Metamagic choices do gain a lot of cheese value for other classes (try Twinning buffs as a Sorcadin paired with a Rogue, and Quickening those Booming Blades), but the Sorcerer class itself is just too poor of a chassis to make much use of them.

Bruh..
Twinned Spell is ultra-powerful. Sure, it doesn't buff the Sorcerer directly, but so what? Twinning a Greater Invisibility/Polymorph/Haste is game-changing.
Quicken can be used to cheese spells like Telekinesis, Sunbeam, Bigby's Hand, etc. You can literally Sunbeam twice in the same turn using it.
Careful is crazy good with spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. And if your DM isn't a Sage Advice stan, it's amazing with spells like Web, Sickening Radiance, etc.
Empowered is simply fantastic for any Sorcerer who even dabbles in blasting. It's super cheap and gets you ~19% more damage on damage spells.

[Asisreo1]

Bruh..
Twinned Spell is ultra-powerful. Sure, it doesn't buff the Sorcerer directly, but so what? Twinning a Greater Invisibility/Polymorph/Haste is game-changing.
Quicken can be used to cheese spells like Telekinesis, Sunbeam, Bigby's Hand, etc. You can literally Sunbeam twice in the same turn using it.
Careful is crazy good with spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. And if your DM isn't a Sage Advice stan, it's amazing with spells like Web, Sickening Radiance, etc.
Empowered is simply fantastic for any Sorcerer who even dabbles in blasting. It's super cheap and gets you ~19% more damage on damage spells.

And extended and distant are meh?!

For spells with durations, extended basically lets you cast them twice consecutively with a single spell slot without actually recasting it. This can be essential to buy you more time and stretch out spell slots in non-combat scenarios like Disguise Self or Invisibility. Of course, if your DM isn't keeping track of time, it may not see as much use. But a DM not keeping track of time is going to cause more issues in the campaign than they probably expect.

Distant spells have both combat and non-combat uses. Sometimes, a really powerful spell requires you being close to the target, but you can't quite reach. Or getting so close is too dangerous. Distant Fly, distant Invisibility. They're also useful for spells whose distance is already large, making their distance even larger. Distant Dimension Door, Distant Message, Distant Clairvoyance. Of course, if your DM isn't keeping track of distance, it may not see much use. But a DM not keeping track of distance is going to have more issues in the campaign than they probably expect.

[sophontteks]

I'm not surprised you used Subtle for this argument - it is really the only one that fits. Twin is so hampered by restrictions that it is difficult to cheese and the best uses are for empowering martials rather than the Sorcerer, Quicken has the cantrip restriction, Extended and Distant are meh, Heightened and Empowered are ok but do not cheese anything, and Careful is a poor-man's Sculpt.

To be honest, the proposed Feat for taking a Metamagic would do 90% of the cheese that is being suggested to take the Sorcerer for, because it really is all in the Subtle. I do note that a number of the other Metamagic choices do gain a lot of cheese value for other classes (try Twinning buffs as a Sorcadin paired with a Rogue, and Quickening those Booming Blades), but the Sorcerer class itself is just too poor of a chassis to make much use of them.

Most of the sorcerers power outside metamagic is tied up in their subclass, so it is hard to argue your point without considering what those subclasses can offer. There are some duds, but the good subclasses take the cheese several big steps forward. Without getting too into it, I'll just sum up by saying that there are two types of classes in 5e: Those who's power comes from their base class and those who's power comes from their subclass. Sorcerers are the latter.

Quicken is best when you need your action for something else. Don't get hung up on just using it to cast cantrips, breaking action economy is a powerful tool. A sorcerer can withdraw or dash away while still dishing out a quickened spell. Using it right it'll break the rules where the DM can think he can shut the sorcerer down once he's stuck in melee, only to see them take the dodge action with a shield spell in their back pocket, all without sacrificing any of their spellcasting economy.

Twinned isn't very limited to me. It breaks the restriction where a caster can only concentrate on a single spell. You are right that it is best used to empower teammates, but I don't see how this is a problem. Greater invisibility is a great spell on it's own. Casting it on 2 people at once for 1 action is more then twice as good. What could we even compare this power spike to? Twinned sorcerers are just plain the best buffers in the game.

Sorcerers also got a new transmutation metamagic for antics like empowered acid fireballs. If you know a creature's vulnerabilities this can be absolutely devestating. We are taking a commonly-resisted damage type, turning it into their vulnerable damage type, and rerolling our die if we roll low. Fireball is already overtuned, and the damage type is really the only thing keeping it balanced.

[Kireban]

I'm really not sure what I'm trying to accomplish with this character yet. Heck, that might even be part of the problem.

As for what type of sorcerer, I really dig that new clockwork one. It looks like a lot of fun and seems to have a bit more versatility than earlier sorcerers.

Sorcerer will never be as versatile as a wizard. You should take a subclass with interesting features that are going to spice your play. Taking clockwork will mostly give you generic sorcerer play options. Twinning buffs.

[Nhorianscum]

Sorcerer will never be as versatile as a wizard. You should take a subclass with interesting features that are going to spice your play. Taking clockwork will mostly give you generic sorcerer play options. Twinning buffs.

I don't think that's strictly true now.

Wizard at 10th level: 15 spells prepared/day + rituals

MA Clockwork/Aberrant Sorcerer at 10th level: 21spells known + 5 metamagics.

[sophontteks]

Clockwork doesn't offer much with additional abilities (the level 6 ability seems awful to me) but the expanded spell lists are complete game-changers.

Don't bother looking into what the actual expanded spells are. You can swap them out every level. That's where the new sublcasses get really nutty.

[Kireban]

I don't think that's strictly true now.

Wizard at 10th level: 15 spells prepared/day + rituals

MA Clockwork/Aberrant Sorcerer at 10th level: 21spells known + 5 metamagics.

It might be true for the clockwork since there are really nice spells to take for each of the bonus list's levels, but the aberrant's bonus list is going to contain some weird/similar spells.
Each of the sorcerer's spells is going to demand a slot to cast, while the wizard can easily have 5 rituals in his book to cast for free, and Arcane Recovery makes the dilemma of when to use spells easier for the wizard.
Also, the wizard's spell list itself contains more diverse spells than the sorcerer's.

Where is the added value of playing a sorcerer instead of wizard if you just play him as a generic wizard with metamagic? This guy wants a reason to play a sorcerer, and clockwork doesn't have any "OMG! I am going to build myself around it!" feature.

[sophontteks]

It might be true for the clockwork since there are really nice spells to take for each of the bonus list's levels, but the aberrant's bonus list is going to contain some weird/similar spells.
Each of the sorcerer's spells is going to demand a slot to cast, while the wizard can easily have 5 rituals in his book to cast for free, and Arcane Recovery makes the dilemma of when to use spells easier for the wizard.
Also, the wizard's spell list itself contains more diverse spells than the sorcerer's.

Where is the added value of playing a sorcerer instead of wizard if you just play him as a generic wizard with metamagic? This guy wants a reason to play a sorcerer, and clockwork doesn't have any "OMG! I am going to build myself around it!" feature.

You can change what the bonus spells are every level, so both subclasses are top tier. Both these subclasses get to change their expanded spells as they please, and they are picking them from the wizard, sorcerer, and warlock lists.

The reason to play clockwork over a wizard is because metamagic without the spell limitations most sorcerers deal with. It's a very mean combination. I think aberant is better with the free subtle on all the expanded spells, but clockwork is easily one of the best sorcerer subclasses.

Generic wizard with metamagic is basically the dream as is.

[Gyor]

And extended and distant are meh?!

For spells with durations, extended basically lets you cast them twice consecutively with a single spell slot without actually recasting it. This can be essential to buy you more time and stretch out spell slots in non-combat scenarios like Disguise Self or Invisibility. Of course, if your DM isn't keeping track of time, it may not see as much use. But a DM not keeping track of time is going to cause more issues in the campaign than they probably expect.

Distant spells have both combat and non-combat uses. Sometimes, a really powerful spell requires you being close to the target, but you can't quite reach. Or getting so close is too dangerous. Distant Fly, distant Invisibility. They're also useful for spells whose distance is already large, making their distance even larger. Distant Dimension Door, Distant Message, Distant Clairvoyance. Of course, if your DM isn't keeping track of distance, it may not see much use. But a DM not keeping track of distance is going to have more issues in the campaign than they probably expect.

One cool trick that most people don't notice is that for certain spells their area of effect is equal to their distance, like major illusion, so you say distance spell major illusion and you double the range you move your illusion around in, which is extra great in a 6th level slot which makes major illusion permanent.

[Gyor]

Divine Souls get some good minion/conjuration/necromancy spells, Animate Undead and Create Undead, Conjure Celestial (couatl), Summon Celestial, Spirit Guardians, Spirit Weapon, Temple of the Gods. Also can twin raise dead and other such spells or cast them at a distance.

If you have deep lockets they also can get Planar Ally.

Extended Spell is alot more valuable for Divine Souls then most other Sorcerers. They can also fly at will, even in armour.

In a jam a Divine Soul can spend 7 Sorcery points to get a 5th level spell slot & Summon Celestial.

Or the Divine Soul can cast possibly the most animate undead spells by creating more 3rd level spell slots from Sorcery Points.

Shadow Sorcerers are the best teleporters the the game, especially with a Astral Shard, teleport as a bonus action, cast an Empowered Thunder Step as an action (teleport +damage), which triggers the Astral Shards teleport. Summon a pair of hounds of Ill omen and cast twin finger of death = 2 new zombies.

Storm Sorcerer can cast animate object on say ship your on, then share its ability to fly with it for a time. Also Thunder Step is really fun with a Storm Sorcerer.

I'd also add that the Sorcerer magic items can make a huge difference. If you have say both the Astral Shard and Far Realms shard you can say cast a twinned fire bolt cheaply and trigger teleportation and a tentacle attack that causes damage and fear if it hits.

[Randomthom]

Also, subtle spell makes counterspelling your spells difficult or impossible (GM dependent, YMMV).

[Gyor]

Assuming 2 short rests, a level 20 Divine Sorcerer have 30 undead minions just by burning it's level 1st and 2nd level spell slots for Sorcery points and spending all points on 5th level slots & casting 5th level Animate Dead spells without burning a single regular spell slot from spell levels 3-9.

If all of it's remaining spell slots are cast on Animate Undead it can have 110 skeletons/zombies. More with extra short rests.