A weird hypothetical situation about an orc and some dwarven slaves

[Conradine]

An orc tribe captured some dwarves and brought them in chain to their camp / village.
An unusually bright orc make the dwarves a proposal: I'll free you and bring you far away from this camp; in exchange you'll help me find a suitable place build a small fortified house, a forge, and you'll tell me everything you know about stonemansonry, metallurgy, blacksmithing and even dwarven language, history and religion.
But first they must swear on their honor, ancestors, gods and beards that they will not betray, flee or kill him.



Assuming they are your average, classic Lawful Good Greyhawk or Faerun dwarves:

1- Would they agree to the agreement?
2- Would they honor the agreement?

[Venger]

1: yes
2: noten characters

[gijoemike]

1. Sure, deal is a deal and slaves to an orc camp is pretty terrible way to go.
2. They would try, it takes decades to teach all that. I see this as the dwarves adopt this orc into their clan. That orc a will die of old age long before the dwarves are done teaching.

The starting age of a dwarven adventurer that is trained is 47 to 82 years old. The orc is asking for training knowing next to nothing.

The max age of that orc is maybe 90 to 100 and s/he is already over 22. So the dwarfs will be complete around the time that orc is venerable. EXCEPT that orc has duties to their deity. This will slow down the training several times a year. And the cleric needs to gain experience which means adventuring. Unless this is some sort for racial retraining. That means no adventures. But it would take years, I would start with 1 decade but could see it still take 30 years.

[aglondier]

I agree, the dwarves would both agree to the deal and keep their end of it...but the orc would die of old age long before the training would be complete.

Which would transfer the debt to the orcs kids, grandkids, great grandkids...

Likely, you would end up with a situation where the dwarven clan would adopt that orcs line, and raise them in memory of the honorable orc that saved them, training and equipping generation after generation of heroic orcs...

[lylsyly]

and all the Orcs must take all 3 levels of the Stoneblessed PrC as early as possible ;-)

[TheStranger]

I think it depends on some setting details. If the secrets of dwarven steel are a Big Freaking Deal in this setting, the dwarves might be unwilling to share them. In which case they’d still probably accept the offer, but not honor it (or not honor it in full, they might happily share enough to put the orc on par with a good human smith). That’s not Lawful, and the dwarves might feel bad, but they’re not automatons. A broken promise is a small price to pay for escaping from slavery, and an agreement made under duress doesn’t carry all that much weight. Staying in slavery in this case is just Lawful Stupid, though.

If the dwarves do honor the deal, they could go about it a few different ways. Adopting the orc and his children into the clan is one extreme. Or they could spend a few years training him as an apprentice until he’s at least competent. Or they could build him the basic tools he needs, write down everything they know about metalworking, and leave him to spend his life trying to figure out all the things that can only be learned through experience.

Also, one dwarf/orc is a very small part of the process of high-end metalsmithing. Dwarven goods benefit from a massive amount of mining/smelting infrastructure and expertise. Even a dwarven master smith isn’t going to put out the same quality work cut off from that infrastructure.

[Conradine]

and an agreement made under duress doesn’t carry all that much weight.

But the orc didn't lead the raid, and he risks his life if caught freeing prisoners.

I agree, the dwarves would both agree to the deal and keep their end of it...but the orc would die of old age long before the training would be complete.

Wedded to History!
The legend of the orc stoneblessed.

[Doctor Despair]

But the orc didn't lead the raid, and he risks his life if caught freeing prisoners.

While that's true, there's clearly a power imbalance in their relationship, don't you think? Even though the orc isn't the one responsible for them being in this situation, they are still in the situation; any agreement they make to escape capture would be made under duress. It's the same reason why it's unethical for a prison guard to ask to date an inmate, or a boss their employee; the inmate or employee will feel compelled to agree.

[Conradine]

But a prison guard or a employee's boss doesn't risk being slowly flayed alive then fed to the pigs if caught.

[TheStranger]

While that's true, there's clearly a power imbalance in their relationship, don't you think? Even though the orc isn't the one responsible for them being in this situation, they are still in the situation; any agreement they make to escape capture would be made under duress. It's the same reason why it's unethical for a prison guard to ask to date an inmate, or a boss their employee; the inmate or employee will feel compelled to agree.

This, basically. To my mind, "promises made to escape slavery" is in roughly the same category as "promises made to avoid torture." And it's not like this orc is offering to free them because he has some moral objection to their enslavement - he's offering to free them if they help set him up for life. Like I said, the dwarves might feel somewhat bad about making a promise they don't intend to keep, but are they really so ultra-Lawful that they'd rather spend their lives in slavery than escape through subterfuge?

[Batcathat]

But a prison guard or a employee's boss doesn't risk being slowly flayed alive then fed to the pigs if caught.

Sure, but the orc is still exploiting the dwarves' situation in order to get what he wants. It'd be another thing if he said "Hey, I'm gonna free you and if you'd then teach me all this stuff as a reward that'd be nice".

Also, you say the orc "didn't lead the raid", did he take part in it? If he's partly responsible for their situation, I'd argue they're even less obligated to keep any promise to him.

[Doctor Despair]

But a prison guard or a employee's boss doesn't risk being slowly flayed alive then fed to the pigs if caught.

I think you're conflating "having a power imbalance" with "being evil." Businesses hold seminars on sexual harassment because it so often happens accidentally, even with otherwise "good" people.

The orc is taking a risk to help them in exchange for their services -- that isn't evil. However, the orc can walk away from the negotiations -- the dwarves can't. If the orc makes the dwarves angry and things fall through, the orc loses nothing. The dwarves' lives depend on maintaining the orc's good will. They are not on equal footing in these negotiations, and, lawful or not, the dwarves will not feel compelled to hold up their end of the bargain afterward.

[Conradine]

Would they at least feel compelled to not slit the orc's throat while he's sleeping?

[Doctor Despair]

Would they at least feel compelled to not slit the orc's throat while he's sleeping?

If they are lawful good, they probably would not do this regardless, but especially if he is taking risks to help them. They might honor the deal; they might sneak away. If he threatened them (e.g., honor the deal or I kill you myself/take you back to the camp), they MIGHT kill him in his sleep, but prooobably not.

He'd be better off, as others said, first making friends with them while imprisoned/learning a little about them, then freeing them, then asking to be taught, rather than treating it as a formal contract.

[TheStranger]

Would they at least feel compelled to not slit the orc's throat while he's sleeping?

I’m sure they would be very grateful to the orc and would probably want to reward him in some way that wouldn’t be tantamount to betraying their people by sharing secret dwarven knowledge. For instance, they could probably set him up as a competent non-dwarven blacksmith if that’s what he wants.

Of course, if dwarven metalworking in your setting isn’t a closely-held racial secret they might well honor the deal. They do owe this orc something after all - he risked his life to free them and he can’t go back to his people. They’re probably not going to just say “screw you, sucker” unless they really have nothing else to offer.

That said, even if they intend to honor the deal or otherwise reward the orc they might decide to slip away at the first opportunity and reconnect with the orc to carry out the bargain without being at his mercy the whole time.

[Buufreak]

I'm definitely seconding the argument of old age. Dwarves live ups of 200 years. Orcs are lucky to get 30. Assuming he is already an orc of adult age, he isn't going to live long enough to learn all the goods.

[Venger]

Would they at least feel compelled to not slit the orc's throat while he's sleeping?

No. They would not.

[Conradine]

That said, even if they intend to honor the deal or otherwise reward the orc they might decide to slip away at the first opportunity and reconnect with the orc to carry out the bargain without being at his mercy the whole time.

They are not at his mercy once left the camp in secret. They travel in the wilderness, reach an appropriate and secretive location and start building the fortified house - forge.
The orc don't keep them tied or chained. He don't even keep them under surveillance. They are free to leave at any time. They even have their backpacks, food and water if they want to leave.

But, as the orc says:

" No chain bounds you except the chain of honor. If you want to break your word and leave, I'll not pursue you: I don't want to learn from an honorless mentor. "

He'd be better off, as others said, first making friends with them while imprisoned/learning a little about them, then freeing them, then asking to be taught, rather than treating it as a formal contract.

He's not searching friends, as much he's not searching slaves. He's searching honorable mentors.
If they flee he leaves them flee, they would prove - in his eyes - unworthy of being his mentors.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm going to say no to the whole situation.

The dwarves have no reason to trust this orc, nor any reason to believe he is capable of freeing them single-handedly. They are likely to be strongly prejudiced against orcs already, even before having been taken captive by them. It would probably seem just as likely that the orc is trying to trick them somehow rather than help them.

Even if they somehow looked past all that and believed this orc's sincerity and capability, I don't think they'd agree to teach him dwarven ways. First, they probably don't think he could even learn. Second, if he did, they wouldn't want him using that knowledge to help the other orcs.

I think there would have to be some pretty unusual circumstances to make the dwarves even consider this. Like if it was a half-orc, or an orc slave from another tribe, who was treated almost as badly as the dwarves are, that might give him a little credibility.

But otherwise, I think the dwarves would reject the idea out of hand. Dwarves are a proud and hardy people. Their default response to being enslaved would be to endure their hardship with stoicism and dignity until a rescue or a means of escape presents itself.

[denthor]

1. Sure, deal is a deal and slaves to an orc camp is pretty terrible way to go.
2. They would try, it takes decades to teach all that. I see this as the dwarves adopt this orc into their clan. That orc a will die of old age long before the dwarves are done teaching.

The starting age of a dwarven adventurer that is trained is 47 to 82 years old. The orc is asking for training knowing next to nothing.

The max age of that orc is maybe 90 to 100 and s/he is already over 22. So the dwarfs will be complete around the time that orc is venerable. EXCEPT that orc has duties to their deity. This will slow down the training several times a year. And the cleric needs to gain experience which means adventuring. Unless this is some sort for racial retraining. That means no adventures. But it would take years, I would start with 1 decade but could see it still take 30 years.

Disagree on one point this orc wants to be like a dwarf. He would never have any obligation to a chaotic evil society. If you left a country behind for another do you care what happens to that country enough to go back and give up the life you embarked on?

[Feldar]

An orc tribe captured some dwarves and brought them in chain to their camp / village.
An unusually bright orc make the dwarves a proposal: I'll free you and bring you far away from this camp; in exchange you'll help me find a suitable place build a small fortified house, a forge, and you'll tell me everything you know about stonemansonry, metallurgy, blacksmithing and even dwarven language, history and religion.
But first they must swear on their honor, ancestors, gods and beards that they will not betray, flee or kill him.



Assuming they are your average, classic Lawful Good Greyhawk or Faerun dwarves:

1- Would they agree to the agreement?
2- Would they honor the agreement?

I'm willing to bet that in dwarven society a deal made under duress does not have to be honored, so Yes and No.

[Jay R]

A dwarf I am running would counter-offer the same deal with a limit of five years. And yes, he would keep that oath.

Parole is an oath always made by a prisoner, accepting conditions under which the prisoner will be freed. It is generally considered binding.

[SpyOne]

I think the Dwarves would not agree to the deal as proposed, but would be willing to negotiate from there.

Simply put, no craftsman agrees to teach all he knows to someone he just met. Most want to only pass their knowledge on to someone who will use that knowledge in ways they would approve of. And almost always they reserve the right to dismiss an apprentice who commits a severe transgression.

"I'll swear right now that if you help.us escape I'll not turn on you or flee unless you give me a reason to.
I'll swear to never hold your being an Orc against you, and to treat you as if you were a Dwarf. As if you were my kin.
I'l swear to help you find a good place to bulid the house you want and help you build it, again unless you give me cause to leave.
And I'll swear to take you on as my apprentice, and to treat you no different from any other apprentice. Whether I'll teach you all I know will depend on how you abide living under my rules."


That is an agreement they would make and abide by.

Some Dwarves might be willing to pretend to agree and fail to abide by their agreement, but some Dwarves definitely wouldn't. For them, if answer #2 is "no", then so is answer #1.

[GrayDeath]

A dwarf I am running would counter-offer the same deal with a limit of five years. And yes, he would keep that oath.

Parole is an oath always made by a prisoner, accepting conditions under which the prisoner will be freed. It is generally considered binding.

Agreed.

However, in the 2 cases where I played a Dwarf, none had a more than "Clichee" strength of hatred between the 2.
Mostly Dwarves thought of orcs as "Brutish moron s who think theay`re dwarves and try to build halls, and flail about laughably".

So he would be very curious if the Orc can be taught, but as said above, would make a clear time limit and ask the Orc to fully seperate from his kin, even if the teachings do not satisfy him. Just to be sure.

[Wildstag]

If the dwarves are TRULY Lawful Good, they would accept the agreement with reservations and counter-offers; they would likely provide for the defense and anti-exploitation of their imported workers. They would also demand 1 to 1 commitment; if the dwarves are going to risk themselves with their long-hated enemies, than the orcs must also meet them halfway and actually commit to the tasks.

If the orcs do not bare their fangs at the dwarves or behave in duplicitous manners, then they'll be on good terms. Basically; the orcs would have to be no more than two steps of alignment away from the dwarves, they'd need some moral common ground. Whether this means the community of orcs have a hard time with structure but care about altruism and the betterment of their descendants or they accept and enjoy the structure without a respect for the dignity of others; either way they'll need some common ground for the agreement to last.

And the necessary length of the apprenticeships and work would mean that the dwarves are likely to have meaningful impacts on the moral values of later generations of orcs, meaning they might be able to influence the community into another step closer in alignment. Or if the dwarves are also being 1 to 1, they'll meet halfway.

If personal cultural grudges hold more value in the mind of the dwarves than the greater philosophical pursuit for the proselytization of their own values, the agreement will fail. Otherwise, they will work to hold it.