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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    so pick bard. you dont need to be born lucky. you dont need to study. just sing sing sing and you become a god.
    You need to study a whole lot to do good music or humour or tragedy or whatever perform you will use.
    Singing well is hard.
    Even if the kind of performance you want to use is "easy to do" the fact you need ranks just to be an average bard means you need lots of training.
    However if you are good at being a bard you do not just get any power: you get one of the most desired powers, the power of making yourself popular.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-23 at 09:53 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    You need to study a whole lot to do good music or humour or tragedy or whatever perform you will use.
    Singing well is hard.
    I mean... technically you don't have to sing well to be a bard at all put zero ranks in Perform, 10 Cha etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I mean... technically you don't have to sing well to be a bard at all put zero ranks in Perform, 10 Cha etc.
    but then you do not get power either.

  4. - Top - End - #34

    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    You need to study a whole lot to do good music or humour or tragedy or whatever perform you will use.
    Singing well is hard.
    Even if the kind of performance you want to use is "easy to do" the fact you need ranks just to be an average bard means you need lots of training.
    However if you are good at being a bard you do not just get any power: you get one of the most desired powers, the power of making yourself popular.
    that kind of "studying" is a different kind of studying.
    practicing your own artistic talent at home and "studying" other artsy people and trying to figure out why you like their performance
    vs
    needing to compete with other geniuses for a scholarship issued by the state to get you the education under a wizard professor with access to a full library of knowledge hoarded across the centuries and planes.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    that kind of "studying" is a different kind of studying.
    practicing your own artistic talent at home and "studying" other artsy people and trying to figure out why you like their performance
    vs
    needing to compete with other geniuses for a scholarship issued by the state to get you the education under a wizard professor with access to a full library of knowledge hoarded across the centuries and planes.
    Still it is not lazy to practice the craft of music it just means you had the luck to like doing music but it still is a huge investment if you want to be good at music.
    While going and selling your soul to X in exchange for power does not need a lot of time investment (it requires a lot of courage however because most creatures to which you can sell your soul are scary).
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-23 at 10:19 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36

    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Still it is not lazy to practice the craft of music it just means you had the luck to like doing music but it still is a huge investment if you want to be good at music.
    While going and selling your soul to X in exchange for power does not need a lot of time investment (it requires a lot of courage however because most creatures to which you can sell your soul are scary).
    practicing invocations is just as hard as getting good at singing.

    except

    you dont need to be lucky and born near a demon that you could bargain with. so bard is easier than warlock. because its environment and npc independent.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    practicing invocations is just as hard as getting good at singing.

    except

    you dont need to be lucky and born near a demon that you could bargain with. so bard is easier than warlock. because its environment and npc independent.
    Nowhere does it say you have to practice invocations.
    Unlike for skills which have rules(that are optional) that indicates increasing skill ranks takes time.
    Furthermore if your bard does not use music you need charisma to use spells and not everybody have charisma.
    While warlock does not have stat requirement suggesting that invocations does not needs any sort of understanding: with only ones as stats you could use EB and the invocations just fine.
    Also lazyness is not the same thing as ease.
    There is things that are easy to do that are not lazy at all because it takes long amounts of time.

    As for bards being environment and npc independent I can hardly see you gain levels while in a featureless plain with nobody to interact with.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-23 at 10:40 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #38

    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Nowhere does it say you have to practice invocations.
    Unlike for skills which have rules(that are optional) that indicates increasing skill ranks takes time.
    Furthermore if your bard does not use music you need charisma to use spells and not everybody have charisma.
    While warlock does not have stat requirement suggesting that invocations does not needs any sort of understanding: with only ones as stats you could use EB and the invocations just fine.
    Also lazyness is not the same thing as ease.
    There is things that are easy to do that are not lazy at all because it takes long amounts of time.
    warlocks must adhere to all adventurer rules too. mainly they endlessly practice their craft during downtime and must train everyday or their skills will wane.

    ranged attack rolls dont happen magically. only adventurer level of practice and training can use range attack rolls as good as the stat blocks says.

    read bard description. they gain magic through performing vocally. the difference between a commoner and a bard is just music. charisma is just an indication of how strong the bards personality is.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    warlocks must adhere to all adventurer rules too. mainly they endlessly practice their craft during downtime and must train everyday or their skills will wane.

    ranged attack rolls dont happen magically. only adventurer level of practice and training can use range attack rolls as good as the stat blocks says.

    read bard description. they gain magic through performing vocally. the difference between a commoner and a bard is just music. charisma is just an indication of how strong the bards personality is.
    A bard with 9 charisma literally can not cast bard spells.
    Also I have never seen a rule saying adventurers practice their craft in their down time: can you show the rule text?
    A warlock could still use their abilities fine with a _ in int, con, dex, str and 1 wisdom and 1 charisma so it is arguably way easier to do invocations than bardic spellcasting.
    But in terms of lazyness what you have told is basically that any class based way to power lacks lazyness because in your words " all adventurer rules too. mainly they endlessly practice their craft during downtime and must train everyday or their skills will wane."
    Meaning that a path to power that involves classes is not lazy according to your invented rule(unless you can show me the paragraph in the manuals).
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-23 at 10:54 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40

    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    A bard with 9 charisma literally can not cast bard spells.
    Also I have never seen a rule saying adventurers practice their craft in their down time: can you show the rule text?
    A warlock could still use their abilities fine with a _ in int, con, dex, str and 1 wisdom and 1 charisma so it is arguably way easier to do invocations than bardic spellcasting.
    offset by the fact that you need to find a demon that doesnt splatter you on sight. thats harder than getting a scholarship for a wizard apprenticeship.

    rule text is somewhere i dont know. its background activity. i think its in the same place that says wizards need to experiment with spells everyday with random minor material components as background activity.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    offset by the fact that you need to find a demon that doesnt splatter you on sight. thats harder than getting a scholarship for a wizard apprenticeship.

    rule text is somewhere i dont know. its background activity. i think its in the same place that says wizards need to experiment with spells everyday with random minor material components as background activity.
    If you can not find out where it is written it might be something gm invented.
    Also if demons are too dangerous try devils.

    but anyway if what you wrote is true then it means the laziest path to power is to not get class levels but instead get enough money from whichever opportunity you have to then get power.
    Or maybe worship sloth: this way the training to get closer to your ideal and be a better cleric is to sit around doing nothing productive.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-23 at 11:06 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42

    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    If you can not find out where it is written it might be something gm invented.
    Also if demons are too dangerous try devils.

    but anyway if what you wrote is true then it means the laziest path to power is to not get class levels but instead get enough money from whichever opportunity you have to then get power.
    Or maybe worship sloth: this way the training to get closer to your ideal and be a better cleric is to sit around doing nothing productive.
    closest i could find is p.197 on dmg where it says researching and training aren't part of the standard rules. theyre assumed to be going on in the background.

    devils demons same thing. your dm has to gift wrap a demon devil on a silver platter to you for you to have access to warlock class. bard doesnt. therefore bard is easier.




    we need to set some guidelines.
    laziest and easiest path to power is a god just turning you into a god because he or she likes you. the end.
    or being born as an abomination.

    in other words, some other super entity does 100% of the work for you.

    so obviously theres no point in discussing if we allow super entities to do everything for you.
    otherwise pazuzu pazuzu pazuzu.

    so if we are talking about the self made man to power, imo something that is least dependent on environment or luck, and requires the least amount of hardwork, is the goal.
    imo thats a bard.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Mentioned upthread but binder. Draw a thing in dirt. Fail binding check who cares, still have power, just grow horns occasionally and be irritable or have a weird bit of OCD. A bad pact is still a pact. You literally just need a copy of the sign in most cases and maybe a name. No practice, no contacting fiends of any stripe, just enough literacy to read a name and copy what you see. Exceptions exist but its likely the simplest way.

  14. - Top - End - #44

    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    Mentioned upthread but binder. Draw a thing in dirt. Fail binding check who cares, still have power, just grow horns occasionally and be irritable or have a weird bit of OCD. A bad pact is still a pact. You literally just need a copy of the sign in most cases and maybe a name. No practice, no contacting fiends of any stripe, just enough literacy to read a name and copy what you see. Exceptions exist but its likely the simplest way.
    how strong can a binder get? cause with the mirror mephit a bard can be tier 1. is there a similar shenanigan that binders can do to get tier 1 power?

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    closest i could find is p.197 on dmg where it says researching and training aren't part of the standard rules. theyre assumed to be going on in the background.

    devils demons same thing. your dm has to gift wrap a demon devil on a silver platter to you for you to have access to warlock class. bard doesnt. therefore bard is easier.




    we need to set some guidelines.
    laziest and easiest path to power is a god just turning you into a god because he or she likes you. the end.
    or being born as an abomination.

    in other words, some other super entity does 100% of the work for you.

    so obviously theres no point in discussing if we allow super entities to do everything for you.
    otherwise pazuzu pazuzu pazuzu.

    so if we are talking about the self made man to power, imo something that is least dependent on environment or luck, and requires the least amount of hardwork, is the goal.
    imo thats a bard.
    bards are environment dependant: you can not gain xp from nothing.
    Since you decided that asking for help is forbidden most bard musics are really bad at low level: it is mostly support which is pointless if you have no party so you would be stronger being a barbarian with 1 to all stats than a bard with 1 to all stats.

    You can not assume you will magically have a party if you assume that even a devil would not want to associate with you.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-23 at 11:20 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46

    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    bards are environment dependant: you can not gain xp from nothing.
    Since you decided that asking for help is forbidden most bard musics are really bad at low level: it is mostly support which is pointless if you have no party so you would be better off being a barbarian with 1 to all stats than a bard with 1 to all stats.
    theres acfs that give bard an animal companion at full druid level. from there you can get more abusive. i was working on a bard that uses metamagic reducers to get fell animate up by level 3 for a zombie army. just an example.

    i think a bard with 1 to all stats can take a barbarian with 1 to all stats. animal companion is strong and expendable.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    theres acfs that give bard an animal companion at full druid level. from there you can get more abusive. i was working on a bard that uses metamagic reducers to get fell animate up by level 3 for a zombie army. just an example.

    i think a bard with 1 to all stats can take a barbarian with 1 to all stats. animal companion is strong and expendable.
    What is the proof you will meet an animal and not be eaten by it before you turn it into an animal compagnion?
    It does not make sense to say you can not find a devil and not get killed by it but that somehow you can find a strong animal and not get killed by it.
    Also your bard will never use metamagics because metamagics needs the ability to cast spells to be used which is not possible with 1 charisma as a bard: you will need a lot of levels and stat increases to get enough charisma.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-23 at 11:25 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48

    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    What is the proof you will meet an animal and not be eaten by it before you turn it into an animal compagnion?
    It does not make sense to say you can not find a devil and not get killed by it but that somehow you can find a strong animal and not get killed by it.
    Also your bard will never use metamagics because metamagics needs the ability to cast spells to be used which is not possible with 1 charisma as a bard.
    you get animal companion by doing a 24 hour ritual. upon summon its your bff. you dont go hunting for one.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    you get animal companion by doing a 24 hour ritual. upon summon its your bff. you dont go hunting for one.
    24 uninterrupted hours of prayer.
    You were not lazy if you were willing to pray for a straight 24h.
    I mean I would not be able to pray straight for 24 hours without going to the toilets or eating or sleeping or having attention lapses and you will only find some people able to do that and those people are also the kind of people willing to work overtime for their jobs.
    You have proven your bard was incredibly unlazy that way.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-23 at 11:35 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    I agree that spontaneous casters seem a lazy (or lucky) path to power.

    Favored Soul / Sorcerer / Mystic Theurge

    With early entry, and zero prc, you cast at 9/6? Not bad for a natural gift.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Lazy? Be a dragon. Have enough food (Ring of Sustenance) and avoid being killed, then you can sleep away all the time you want (centuries!) while continually but slowly gaining power for doing nothing but staying alive. You could use other planes to speed things up, but that's not on the path for those who seek True Laziness.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    but then you do not get power either.
    I was specifically basing this on newguy's "Obtain Familiar + Mirror Mephit" trick, which IIRC doesn't require any kind of talent with performing.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I was specifically basing this on newguy's "Obtain Familiar + Mirror Mephit" trick, which IIRC doesn't require any kind of talent with performing.
    but needs you to gain enough caster levels to have the improved familiar feat so you either have the luck of being born with tons of flaws or a few hundred gp and use them to boost your cl or you will need levels.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-23 at 06:28 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Binders get tier 2 with zycrell alone if they (ab)use it properly. Anima Mage gives free metamagic if you pick up casting.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: What is the laziest path to power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Seconding Wilder and recommending going into Thrallherd. Takes some careful building, but that can be done without the character knowing it was “hard.” And now he also has flocks of believers telling him how great he is and how hard he works while rushing to do everything for him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavir View Post
    Lazy? Be a dragon. Have enough food (Ring of Sustenance) and avoid being killed, then you can sleep away all the time you want (centuries!) while continually but slowly gaining power for doing nothing but staying alive. You could use other planes to speed things up, but that's not on the path for those who seek True Laziness.
    Sooo, a Dragon Wilder/Thrallherd is the obvious solutiuon for near 0 effort, near top results in 2 areas?

    Heck, you can add a few binder levels if by some accident you ahve too much XP left.^^
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