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Thread: TPK Time?

  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: TPK Time?

    The answer is because it's pretty clear at this point that Will Saves in this comic, in addition to being like all saves dictated by plot needs, are dictated not by class but, mostly, by person. Yes, Elan, mechanically, should have a better Will save then Roy, but, this isn't a game, it's a story. And, in narrative terms, Roy is a strong-willed leader, while Elan is an idiot, who knows full well he is one, and, thus, prefers to let others do his thinking. Viewed from that standpoint, it makes perfect sense that Roy would fight off mind-control, and Elan wouldn't.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yirggzmb View Post
    Might depend on how the command was formatted. She clearly didn't have a real problem letting Durkon hold the baby later, so "The baby's father would like to hold him" could have been effective and not trigger a save.
    Durkon didn't have big swords thrown constantly in his direction at that moment. And Hylgia had made it plenty clear she thought that she was the only safe place for her baby to be, in the face of danger.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: TPK Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirggzmb View Post
    Might depend on how the command was formatted. She clearly didn't have a real problem letting Durkon hold the baby later, so "The baby's father would like to hold him" could have been effective and not trigger a save.
    All true, but since Goblin_Priest doesn't believe that, don't issue a command at all. Just reach out and take the baby.

    Because the ONLY things that gives a new saving throw are no orders for a full day and an order against her basic nature.

    The only command is "Come stand here". That doesn't give a save. Then Hilgya does NOTHING when Greg takes Kudzu because once she accepts the command to come here (which is where she was trying to go), she does that "to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)."

    Holding onto Kudzu is not necessary for day to day survival. Resisting when Greg takes Kudzu isn't neccessary for day to day survival. It's just a thing she'd want to do. No second save. No reason for a second save. No resistance, because she doesn't do that while under orders.

    She'd stand there and let Greg kill her, that's within a dominate. She'll stand there and let him hold the baby too.
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2020-11-27 at 02:08 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    All true, but since Goblin_Priest doesn't believe that, don't issue a command at all. Just reach out and take the baby.

    Because the ONLY things that gives a new saving throw are no orders for a full day and an order against her basic nature.

    The only command is "Come stand here". That doesn't give a save. Then Hilgya does NOTHING when Greg takes Kudzu because once she accepts the command to come here (which is where she was trying to go), she does that "to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)."

    Holding onto Kudzu is not necessary for day to day survival. Resisting when Greg takes Kudzu isn't neccessary for day to day survival. It's just a thing she'd want to do. No second save. No reason for a second save. No resistance, because she doesn't do that while under orders.

    She'd stand there and let Greg kill her, that's within a dominate. She'll stand there and let him hold the baby too.
    Let's be clear, here, while I'm not found of how that battle was handled, it's still better story telling than anything JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson did with Star Wars.

    I'm nitpicking about things that I don't feel super strongly about. I'm pretty firm in my position, but I don't think it's the worst sin ever.

    But to go back to the nitpicking, because that's what we do, Roy broke the domination when Durkula merely taunted him. Spell mechanics need to work consistently. If Roy got a new save for that, it seems silly to me to say that Hilgia didn't get a new save for putting her baby in harm's way.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    annoyed Re: TPK Time?

    Come on, has everyone forgotten that we already had a TPK by Redcloak on Team Peregrine? Not happening to the Order.
    Thank you Ceika for the avatar

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Let's be clear, here, while I'm not found of how that battle was handled, it's still better story telling than anything JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson did with Star Wars.

    I'm nitpicking about things that I don't feel super strongly about. I'm pretty firm in my position, but I don't think it's the worst sin ever.

    But to go back to the nitpicking, because that's what we do, Roy broke the domination when Durkula merely taunted him. Spell mechanics need to work consistently. If Roy got a new save for that, it seems silly to me to say that Hilgia didn't get a new save for putting her baby in harm's way.
    No, in that case, Drakula gave him an order, namely, "give up".

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    No, in that case, Drakula gave him an order, namely, "give up".
    Öwhich was probably a hard sell when Roy realised the bearded giant dwarflike creature is not, in fact, Durkon but rather an Evil creature who probably destroyed his best friend.
    Personally, I would argue that not avenging Durkon would very much be against Roy's nature, and Greg's order conflicted with that.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I disagree. The only one with Xs in her eyes was Hilgya. So long as the party HP pool is greater than 0 it's not a TPK.
    Even by your narrow definition, 0 HP does not mean "immediately dead", but "down and potentially dying". Been this way for several editions in D&D. So "party HP pool at 0" and "only a few dead characters" are not mutually exclusive.

    But even without going into pure D&D rule details, the ways I heard TPK used were either "Entire party out of the fight", or "Party wiped out, the players have to create new characters". "Entire party has to be dead, but will come back after a resurection" feels like a weird in-between. I mean, what's the difference between "everyone is knocked out, and will come to their sense later" and "everyone is dead, and will be resurected later"? Apart from the fact the second proposition feels even more contrived than the first and cheapens character death, they're functionally the same.
    Last edited by Kardwill; 2020-12-03 at 08:33 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardwill View Post
    Even by your narrow definition, 0 HP does not mean "immediately dead", but "down and potentially dying". Been this way for several editions in D&D. So "party HP pool at 0" and "only a few dead characters" are not mutually exclusive.

    But even without going into pure D&D rule details, the ways I heard TPK used were either "Entire party out of the fight", or "Party wiped out, the players have to create new characters". "Entire party has to be dead, but will come back after a resurection" feels like a weird in-between. I mean, what's the difference between "everyone is knocked out, and will come to their sense later" and "everyone is dead, and will be resurected later"? Apart from the fact the second proposition feels even more contrived than the first and cheapens character death, they're functionally the same.
    It's easier to kill a whole party than to knock them all out without killing any of them.

    I had once given my party rejuvenation, without telling them. I don't know if that was a good or a bad idea, none of them died afterwards before we ended the campaign. I hate being forced to roll a new character just because of bad luck (scythe crit), and I hate causing that on others. The idea was to find a compromise between "immortal so can't lose battles" and "fragile and a single slip will force me to make a new character", especially since the story was very character-centric (had many long-panning arcs planned out) and those characters had accomplished unique feats in the game world, being blessed by a primal deity).
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    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Orc in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    It's easier to kill a whole party than to knock them all out without killing any of them.
    With D&D, yeah. But "a few dead PCs, and the rest knocked out" (meaning at 0HP, but not dead yet) is a common result. Especially in D&D5, where you have a fair chance of stabilizing on your own if the bad guys don't try to finish you off.

    With other games, "everybody out of the fight, but not necessarily dead when they hit 0HP" can be the default. Fate, for example. I like those : They mean that defeat doesn't have to mean "start a new campaign" ^^
    Last edited by Kardwill; 2020-12-05 at 11:36 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardwill View Post
    With D&D, yeah. But "a few dead PCs, and the rest knocked out" (meaning at 0HP, but not dead yet) is a common result. Especially in D&D5, where you have a fair chance of stabilizing on your own if the bad guys don't try to finish you off.

    With other games, "everybody out of the fight, but not necessarily dead when they hit 0HP" can be the default. Fate, for example. I like those : They mean that defeat doesn't have to mean "start a new campaign" ^^
    Well, by default, awe can assume all rules talk here to be D&D 3.5-relevant. ;)
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    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: TPK Time?

    I think The Giant has rendered this thread moot,
    and the poster suggesting that bypassing the trap actually leads to another room is looking to have the correct answer. We shall see soon.

    Some questions remain unanswered. Two stand out at this time:

    How does OotS evade TE's pursuit? This is far too early in the book for the final confrontation and now that they are on the track. I don't forsee TE just giving up the chase and letting the dwarves leave.

    If the OotS does have a shortcut to the gate, how are they going to avoid leading TE there?

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: TPK Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I think The Giant has rendered this thread moot,
    and the poster suggesting that bypassing the trap actually leads to another room is looking to have the correct answer. We shall see soon.

    Some questions remain unanswered. Two stand out at this time:

    How does OotS evade TE's pursuit? This is far too early in the book for the final confrontation and now that they are on the track. I don't forsee TE just giving up the chase and letting the dwarves leave.

    If the OotS does have a shortcut to the gate, how are they going to avoid leading TE there?
    I'm thinking Oona tracks the party into the door they went in because Belkar didn't finish with the tracks, and then TE goes to the "normal" instance of the dungeon. The party see them disappear before their very eyes and use that chance to escape. Or TE sees the party, party flees, TE crosses the runes and are sent to another dungeon, while the OotS are "chased" into a meeting with the mysterious ally the giant referenced last book.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2020-12-06 at 11:12 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: TPK Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I'm thinking Oona tracks the party into the door they went in because Belkar didn't finish with the tracks, and then TE goes to the "normal" instance of the dungeon. The party see them disappear before their very eyes and use that chance to escape. Or TE sees the party, party flees, TE crosses the runes and are sent to another dungeon, while the OotS are "chased" into a meeting with the mysterious ally the giant referenced last book.
    I like this hypothesis, and will drop a quataloo wager on this being the serial to what we are seeing now.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: TPK Time?

    Iím going to go totally off topic and reply to the original comment: was Leeroy Jenkins really a TPK?

    I thought it was just one mook running into battle while everyone else watched him get shredded? Like if Elan charged into battle against the Death Wyrm while the rest of the team watched in disbelief?
    Last edited by Dion; 2020-12-08 at 05:22 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Iím going to go totally off topic and reply to the original comment: was Leeroy Jenkins really a TPK?

    I thought it was just one mook running into battle while everyone else watched him get shredded? Like if Elan charged into battle against the Death Wyrm while the rest of the team watched in disbelief?
    In the scenario of the eponymous Leeroy Jenkins, the rest of his party tried to salvage the situation by charging in after him and trying to follow their plan, and they all died.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    In the scenario of the eponymous Leeroy Jenkins, the rest of his party tried to salvage the situation by charging in after him and trying to follow their plan, and they all died.
    It was glorious, and at least someone got chicken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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