TPK Time?

[brian 333]

TPK is a trope in fantasy gaming. Long before Leroy Jenkins was born gamers have screamed and thrown dice at the DM when the party HP pool hit zero.

OotS has yet to feature this time honored rite of passage. Yet...

Now would be a perfect time for it to happen for several reasons:

It would give a plausible reason for Belkar being animated as an undead.

It would give us a glimpse into Haley and Elan's happily ever after.

It would create an early-in-the-book setback the protagonists have to overcome.

It would give us another page of Eugene and Roy.

With Scar and Sharkey running around with new allies there wouldn't even be need of a deus ex raise. Green and Orange could simply wait until Team Evil goes into another door and rescue the dead party.

I don't want it to happen, but if it does, now would be an almost perfect time for it.

[ebarde]

If literally the entire party dies, there really isn't a lot of tension cause it's a bit obvious that would get done away with fairly quickly. Also, you'd have to go in everyone's specific afterlifes since they're all going to separate ones, and it would be just very messy to do for very little actual payoff. I think it would de-rail things more than anything, and if the entire party just get's revived no problem that sorta will make it so the stakes of the comic severely lower, when Rich went through a lot of care to make sure death somehow still sticks or at least requires a bit of effort to undo in a world where death is a literal revolving door.

I mean, even with all his efforts I'm sure there is probably a few moments where someone could go "why didn't they just revive that guy" or whatever. Whenever there is literally any even somewhat meaningful character death Rich has to go through all the trouble of justifying why they don't just automatically undo it.

[Goblin_Priest]

"What is no, final answer."

[Quartz]

TPK is a trope in fantasy gaming. Long before Leroy Jenkins was born gamers have screamed and thrown dice at the DM when the party HP pool hit zero.

OotS has yet to feature this time honored rite of passage. Yet...

We sort of had this when the party activated Girard's Wierd trap.

[Darth V]

We had that already. Look closely at the last panel.

[deltamire]

O-Chul and Lien are paladins; as far as I can see, paladins in 3.5E don't get any reviving spells like they do in later editions*. Unless Hilgya has somehow stowed away in someone's bag of holding, or another cleric of a level high enough to cast raise dead / resurrection seven (not even considering monetary requirements) times over a short period of time and the will to do so is just wandering about in the artic wilderness, it seems unlikely the Order has anyone allied to their cause who could do it. The gods can't directly help, and we've had proof with the godsmoot arc that there are very few clerics of high enough level to cast it on the road right now, because most of them are stuck puttering about in the northern godsmoot. We've already had the whole 'we need to find a way to resurrect someone while the enemy is breathing down our neck!' arc with DSTP, anyhow.

Even if we did, then every other event after becomes suspect - if you could muster the power to resurrect seven people with ease ten, twenty pages ago, why can't you do it now? It would play havoc with the stakes of the story. Resurrection isn't all that cheap in OOTS, even if it is in actual dnd's higher tiers. The idea of going against that for a single joke of a TPK seems strange with the current trend of the comic using dnd tropes as a framework for the story to be read, not as an actual narrative structure.

*And even if OOTS was using 5E, paladins only get Resurrection's woebegone little cousin, Revivify, which needs to be cast within a minute of death, and Raise Dead, a fifth level spell of which you get a single slot of at 17th and then another at 19th, to a shocking two whole fifth level spell slots (that's the 1/2 caster lifestyle at work, alas) at 20th. Not exactly enough to raise an entire party, a good portion of who would be probably be corpseless, on account of the fact that destroying the body to prevent resurrection is a tactic used by someone who'd probably be involved with killing 'em.

[InvisibleBison]

time honored rite of passage.

Say what? Where I come from, a TPK is failure, defeat, the end of the adventure, not something that every party is inevitably going to go through sooner or later.

[KorvinStarmast]

Say what? Where I come from, a TPK is failure, defeat, the end of the adventure, not something that every party is inevitably going to go through sooner or later.

Where I come from, it's an opportunity to roll up new characters.

OR

It sets the stage for the DM to say "Well, who is the next DM?"

[Metastachydium]

O-Chul and Lien are paladins; as far as I can see, paladins in 3.5E don't get any reviving spells like they do in later editions*. Unless Hilgya has somehow stowed away in someone's bag of holding, or another cleric of a level high enough to cast raise dead / resurrection seven (not even considering monetary requirements) times over a short period of time and the will to do so is just wandering about in the artic wilderness, it seems unlikely the Order has anyone allied to their cause who could do it. The gods can't directly help, and we've had proof with the godsmoot arc that there are very few clerics of high enough level to cast it on the road right now, because most of them are stuck puttering about in the northern godsmoot. We've already had the whole 'we need to find a way to resurrect someone while the enemy is breathing down our neck!' arc with DSTP, anyhow.

Even if we did, then every other event after becomes suspect - if you could muster the power to resurrect seven people with ease ten, twenty pages ago, why can't you do it now? It would play havoc with the stakes of the story. Resurrection isn't all that cheap in OOTS, even if it is in actual dnd's higher tiers. The idea of going against that for a single joke of a TPK seems strange with the current trend of the comic using dnd tropes as a framework for the story to be read, not as an actual narrative structure.

(Technically it could be manageable, were Team Tiamat to begin pulling its weight. Plenty of clerics available on the chassis of all-out divine foreknowledge. (Please note that even I find this unlikely, but hey. The possibility's there.))

[brian 333]

Where others see the improbable I see what might be possible.

The idea would not invalidate previous storytelling if handled properly, and you don't have a TPK until you see the Xs in their eyes.

It would give Green a reason to become visible.

It would give us an opportunity to see how the dungeons repopulate after adventurers, (or bugbears,) kill the monsters.

It would give the OotS a reason to back off and regroup, and not have the story climax here at the beginning of the last book.

I don't predict it happening, but if it was going to, now is the best opportunity for it to do so, at a time and in a place where the secondary team can fix it and perhaps get the story going in an unexpected direction.

[hroþila]

We had that already. Look closely at the last panel.

Total party knockout?

[dancrilis]

We had that already. Look closely at the last panel.

Mr. Scruffy was up and active - and he awoke Belkar who then defeated the vampires.

[Darth V]

The party was down, the only thing saving them from being butchered right there and then was author/DM fiat to push for the next step in Belkar's hippie vision quest. Mr Scruffy is an NPC.

[Grey Watcher]

TPK is a trope in fantasy gaming. Long before Leroy Jenkins was born gamers have screamed and thrown dice at the DM when the party HP pool hit zero.

I'd argue it's less a trope (a deliberate story device) and more of a consequence of the rules. Apart from the rare Killer DM, most DM's don't want a TPK, because then the players don't get to see all the content they've been slaving over.

OotS has yet to feature this time honored rite of passage. Yet...

Now would be a perfect time for it to happen for several reasons:

It would give a plausible reason for Belkar being animated as an undead.

By whom? And why?

It would give us a glimpse into Haley and Elan's happily ever after.

Howso? While I'm sure they'd go to a pleasant afterlife, I highly doubt that Elan would consider that a proper "happily ever after." And there's a strong possibility that Haley would blame herself and get all depressed that way.

It would create an early-in-the-book setback the protagonists have to overcome.

So Durkon blowing their one chance at surprise and being forced to retreat into the dungeon full of epic and near-epic creatures isn't a setback?

It would give us another page of Eugene and Roy.

And that would get us...? Roy's gotten considerably better at not letting Eugene bait him, and Eugene has just sort of given up, figuring either Roy's somehow going to pull it off or he'll fail and Xykon will get destroyed along with the rest of creation, so he doesn't have nearly as much motivation to henpeck Roy to begin with. Plus I feel like a lot of their verbal sparring is played out, and more of it would just get tedious.

With Scar and Sharkey running around with new allies there wouldn't even be need of a deus ex raise. Green and Orange could simply wait until Team Evil goes into another door and rescue the dead party.

There's no indication that Green and Orange would be remotely sympathetic to the Order. In fact, given that they attacked when the paladins mentioned that Order would want to secure the Gate, they almost certainly think the Order are their enemies at this point.

I don't want it to happen, but if it does, now would be an almost perfect time for it.

In the midst of setting off into a new part of the setting. I, for one, feel like we the audience should get a chance to see what the deal with Kraagor's Tomb is beyond the entrance.

[Goblin_Priest]

The party was down, the only thing saving them from being butchered right there and then was author/DM fiat to push for the next step in Belkar's hippie vision quest. Mr Scruffy is an NPC.

I concur with this guy.

[dancrilis]

The party was down, the only thing saving them from being butchered right there and then was author/DM fiat to push for the next step in Belkar's hippie vision quest. Mr Scruffy is an NPC.

He would either be a class feature or a member of the party - either way he would count.

Also Roy seemed to knock Belkar out without damaging him (possibly the sword has some kindof a sleep effect) then Durkon exploited a loophole in the vampire creation spell to incapacitate not-Durkon, Mr. Scruffy woke up Belkar, Belkar used his high ranks in hide and move silently to ambush a vampire and kill her (and cause the other one to flee rather then likely suffer the same) before finishing off not-Durkon.

That is some high end teamwork right there - no doubt even Nale would be impressed at the level of planning that went into it and anyone should be impressed that they managed to pull it off.

[The Pilgrim]

TPK already happened in the last book.

[brian 333]

TPK already happened in the last book.

I disagree. The only one with Xs in her eyes was Hilgya. So long as the party HP pool is greater than 0 it's not a TPK.

We can disagree on the meaning of TPK, but the definition I am using is Total Party Kill, not Total Party Knockout.

[Riftwolf]

I disagree. The only one with Xs in her eyes was Hilgya. So long as the party HP pool is greater than 0 it's not a TPK.

We can disagree on the meaning of TPK, but the definition I am using is Total Party Kill, not Total Party Knockout.

You mean Minrah.

And... No, TPK isn't some rite of passage for a gaming group. Also killing off every member of the Order and having them resurrected by... Oh, let's say... Fura Morrard/Bloodmouth from Skyrim would be a pretty crummy way for the story to go. I dislike stories where characters are robbed of agency at key points but survive because of plot say-so.
Also from a technical standpoint, how do you think the Order would be better served by becoming weaker than they already are? If a DM said 'oh btw, just before the final boss, you all die and get rezzed lol drop a level', the table would be flipped so hard the centrifugal force would hold the miniatures in place.

Also Roy seemed to knock Belkar out without damaging him (possibly the sword has some kindof a sleep effect)

He struck with the flat of the blade to deal nonlethal damage. The pain of the clasp spell was enough to shock Belkar awake, then he raged so he could make attack actions again. (we don't see what happened after his rage ended, but by that point Hilgya was free of mind control, so he probably got a CLW after passing out again.)

[dancrilis]

f a DM said 'oh btw, just before the final boss, you all die and get rezzed lol drop a level', the table would be flipped so hard the centrifugal force would hold the miniatures in place.

So no harm done.

[woweedd]

The party was down, the only thing saving them from being butchered right there and then was author/DM fiat to push for the next step in Belkar's hippie vision quest. Mr Scruffy is an NPC.

Mr. Scruffy's is Belkar's Animal Companion. He's a class feature of a PC.

[Goblin_Priest]

Mr. Scruffy's is Belkar's Animal Companion. He's a class feature of a PC.

Yea, like Leadership is a character feat. Those are still NPCs, though there's some table variation as to how true this is.

Besides, the whole battle was the fruit of DM fiat, from the PCs failing all the saves they needed to fail, to then being KOed as quickly as they needed, to then Belkar being wakened by something that heals no HP, to finally Durkon overtaking his vampiric parasite. No other battle in this comic comes as much as this one as the GM just having made up his idea of what would be cool and dramatic, and then hamfisting everything into playing out as he had planned for it to.

[Grey Watcher]

Yea, like Leadership is a character feat. Those are still NPCs, though there's some table variation as to how true this is.

Besides, the whole battle was the fruit of DM fiat, from the PCs failing all the saves they needed to fail, to then being KOed as quickly as they needed, to then Belkar being wakened by something that heals no HP, to finally Durkon overtaking his vampiric parasite. No other battle in this comic comes as much as this one as the GM just having made up his idea of what would be cool and dramatic, and then hamfisting everything into playing out as he had planned for it to.

I don't know that it's as hamfisted. Yeah, the exact mechanics of Belkar getting knocked out and awakened don't square very well with D&D rules, but otherwise a battle goes the way it goes by a combination of what the DM, the players, and the dice say. It's just in this case, all three of those are Rich Burlew.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, the exact mechanics of Belkar getting knocked out and awakened don't square very well with D&D rules

Squares fairly well if Roy's sword can apply the 'Hiss of Sleep' spell on hit.

[woweedd]

Yea, like Leadership is a character feat. Those are still NPCs, though there's some table variation as to how true this is.

Besides, the whole battle was the fruit of DM fiat, from the PCs failing all the saves they needed to fail, to then being KOed as quickly as they needed, to then Belkar being wakened by something that heals no HP, to finally Durkon overtaking his vampiric parasite. No other battle in this comic comes as much as this one as the GM just having made up his idea of what would be cool and dramatic, and then hamfisting everything into playing out as he had planned for it to.

No, the ability doesn't heal HP, but it does cause pain, which tends to wake people up: Presumably, this is OOTS house rule's flavoring the XP penalty from using an item of an alignment that doesn't match yours. As for the HP...I would note that Belkar is a Barbarian, as easy as it is to forget: And raging happens to grant a Constitution bonus, and, with it, a few temporary hit points, which brought him back up from zero. Mind, that means that, if he had gotten hit during the fight, he'd have started dying once it wore off, but A. He managed to avoid taking any hits while enraged, and B. Even if he did, there was a Cleric right there.

[Morty]

Yea, like Leadership is a character feat. Those are still NPCs, though there's some table variation as to how true this is.

Besides, the whole battle was the fruit of DM fiat, from the PCs failing all the saves they needed to fail, to then being KOed as quickly as they needed, to then Belkar being wakened by something that heals no HP, to finally Durkon overtaking his vampiric parasite. No other battle in this comic comes as much as this one as the GM just having made up his idea of what would be cool and dramatic, and then hamfisting everything into playing out as he had planned for it to.

Considering that this is a story and not a tabletop campaign, the "GM" making up an idea of what needs to happen is indeed the only possible way for anything to happen.

[Riftwolf]

So no harm done.

After trying to rage quit a little *too* hard, the party has no choice but to sit back down and continue as if nothing happened.

[SlashDash]

Ummm... No. Seriously No.

The reason for the total wipeout last book was to give Durkon a moment to shine. There is no way Greg would have such a dramatic dialogue with Durkon if the battle was still going on.
The only way to make that happen is to stop the battle and it Greg that wins it or he would be busy running. Greg would only do that, as he says himself, if he wins.

Also, the story needed to make it clear how powerful the vampires are. We're talking a global threat here and even more so -
The whole point was to focus on Durkon and Sigdi in the last arc and thus their family involved in the last battle.

Yes, the author used the convenient trick that only Dwarves can go inside, but he also needed to justify the need for them in the first place. If the vampires didn't absolutely win the fight, why would backup be needed?

The order are high level PCs. They were stronger than practically anything Azure City had (short of Miko) so to let the dwarves take over the battle, they needed the party to be taken down a peg.
Wiping out the party served the narrative perfectly.





Now, this isn't needed at all. Xykon is already the supreme threat that he is. On top of that, this would be two wipes in a row - there's no need in repeating it at all.
The only farfetched reason I would think that the narative would require the party to go down is to put a huge emphasis on the person saving them.
So unless that's Redcloak turning sides, it isn't needed at all.

This is the last book. It should focus on the party, how they evolved and giving them their heroic arcs etc.
Killing them would ruin that.



P.S
Also, Belkar won't be coming back as an undead. File it under the same category as "been there, done that".

[Ruck]

The idea would not invalidate previous storytelling if handled properly

That is easy to say in theory, and in this case I would wager impossible to do in practice.

[Psepha]

I can understand the idea of a TPK being a "rite of passage", but one of the key things is who it's a rite of passage for.

I'd argue that it could be considered that for the players, but not for the characters themselves. Players can all expect to go through a TPK at some point or other, and it's often a learning experience about tactics or just that sometimes the dice are against you (assuming it's not the result of a killer DM). However the characters themselves never have that lesson - if you have a TPK then those characters' stories are just over. TPK almost always means the end of that game. And on that basis, since there's no actual game and no actual players, just the characters, I don't think the logic stands.

Also we know that Elan's due a happy ending, so it's hard to picture how that fits with Elan and all of his friends dying.