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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    So I see people talking about how the new class options are bad and to nerfed and I see some people talking about how the new race stuff seems bad but I don't see people talking about how the rest of the book seems underbaked.

    so tashas adds the following: new subclasses, new class options, new race changes, group patrons, new magic items/spells, sidekicks, parlaying with the monster, environmental hazards, and puzzles.

    I think that outside of sidekicks everything else in the book is underbaked. I am not going to talk about the new subclasses but I will talk about the rest.

    the new class options are just not enough. the system was advertised as a way to customize your class. but it is mostly about replacing class features that are bad or adding new class features/ expanding old ones. and to be honest this just doesn't help. most of the replacement options are just more powerful, which is welcome but removes any choice. I feel their new features would be better if every replacement got 2 options of equal, power. one witch follows the theme of upscaling and correcting the old feature and another that is a true alt choice.

    the Race changes are weird. I like the Respect part. although I feel there should have been rules for armor proficiencies, I know it only affects one race but that race has been directly buffing because of these new rules. if armor proficiencies up to medium were on the table it would bring dwarves down and in line with some of the other races. it wouldn't fix everything but it would help.

    the second part of the race changes is the Custom Lineage. it was hyped up as a way to make interesting new races and heavily customizing your race, but it was just a buffed V human. I feel this could have worked if there was a set of special feats meant for this system or something like that. a way to truly create a new race or special descendant of a race. to be honest, I would have preferred a system like pathfinders 1e but simpler. once again a feature was promised to do one thing and didn't really do that.

    Group patrons, this feels like a repeat of the piety system/renown system. It's great but should have instructions for inexperienced DMs. their system is great until you need to create a patron not listed and have to reverse engineer the rules used to make them. I feel when Wtoc adds a system like this it should be accompanied by some extensive discussion of the design policy/rules for creation to help newer DMS.

    Spells. they're just so few non-reprints and the few non-reprints are mostly summoning, don't get me wrong summoning needs more spells and an all-around rework but out of the 21 spells 5 are reprints, and 10 are summoning spells. other areas need attention, and we can see that they know this as the rest of the new spell cover other areas then need more spells, and then there is the part where most of the summoning spells could have been cut and merged into a few.

    Customizing spells, this looked like it would be a discussion on things like burning hands and frost fingers, but instead, it was just a blip about flavoring a spell's appearance. I would have loved it if it explained upon the ideas set in the DMG about customizing spells but instead, it is a restating of the "Let players describe their spells how they want" from the same section of the DMG.

    Magic items, kinda the opposite of spells. I think tattoos got it good. there are enough of them to satisfy most people but the rest of the Magic items are a bit odd. each of them feels like they're part of a set/group like the tattoos but don't have compliments.

    Sidekick, great I feel like they nailed it. but this is mostly because they have been working on this idea for a while and have had 3 major versions now. sidekicks are good because they spent a lot of time getting playtested and iterated on.

    Parleying with Monsters, wonderful interesting but just doesn't have enough space. this should have been a chapter or a 6-10 page spread. It should have interactions with social encounter rules and expanded them, not just use these rules, and here are some examples. It's a great idea but that's it. it's the literary equivalent of writing Hero and then 20 examples.

    Environmental Hazards I just wish this was most structured. for places like the far realm and fey wilds, this makes sense but for hunted houses, Blessed Radiance, and most of the rest they need more structure. there are some rules in the dmg for other Planes and I wish the rules had something like that for these more structured locations. here is 1 or 2 always-on things and then the tables and special rules. I also wish these rules dived into creating your own special environments and balancing them.

    Puzzles, this is what many of the other systems needed. it's well developed and great but I feel it gameifys puzzles a little too much. but this type of development is what most of the other systems needed.

    I think almost everything in this book should have been worked on longer.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Amdy_vill View Post
    Spells. they're just so few non-reprints and the few non-reprints are mostly summoning, don't get me wrong summoning needs more spells and an all-around rework but out of the 21 spells 5 are reprints, and 10 are summoning spells. other areas need attention, and we can see that they know this as the rest of the new spell cover other areas then need more spells, and then there is the part where most of the summoning spells could have been cut and merged into a few.
    We didn't need any new spells, heck, the immense pile of spells is already unwieldy. But we got some anyway, and what is wrong with a different take on summoning? Nothing. Of all of the added spells (besides the reprints form SCAG and the adventure on the ice, the summoning ones (being customizable) are a nice addition in terms of having another option for a summons.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    We didn't need any new spells, heck, the immense pile of spells is already unwieldy. But we got some anyway, and what is wrong with a different take on summoning? Nothing. Of all of the added spells (besides the reprints form SCAG and the adventure on the ice, the summoning ones (being customizable) are a nice addition in terms of having another option for a summons.
    I love the new take on summoning my problem and the unwieldy pile of spells is because of things like this. the problem is that a lot of classes need certain spells to use their class features and some of these spells just don't exist. some types of magic get over supported to the point that they blout the spell count in the game were others like acid cold and summoning lack support. I think summonings new support is great but we should have only gotten 5 new spells because half of the new summoning spells are just the same spell with different paint. they could have all been compressed into one balanced spell.

    this is a great topic that I would love to talk more about. I generally think Wotc Needs to give love to a lot of spell groups and just that they mishandle this one. what they made works but could easily have been less and opened up room for other needed support without compromising the support they gave.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    I'm pretty sure the group patron is a reprint if what was in the Eberron book. At least that's what it was billed as.

    The customized race option is pretty dull, but I don't think I'd mind it if a player felt they really needed it to make the character they we're aiming for. Honestly, though, I think its pushed me towards the camp of changing up V.uman a bit to keep it interesting and then just letting everyone get a feat at first level.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I'm pretty sure the group patron is a reprint if what was in the Eberron book. At least that's what it was billed as.

    The customized race option is pretty dull, but I don't think I'd mind it if a player felt they really needed it to make the character they we're aiming for. Honestly, though, I think its pushed me towards the camp of changing up V.uman a bit to keep it interesting and then just letting everyone get a feat at first level.
    I just check about group patrons and your right but I still feel my points stand. if you are going to reprint something to bring it into more tables it should be better explained. I think group patrons work in Eberron because from the looks of it all setting unique patrons seem to be covered.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Amdy_vill View Post
    I just check about group patrons and your right but I still feel my points stand. if you are going to reprint something to bring it into more tables it should be better explained. I think group patrons work in Eberron because from the looks of it all setting unique patrons seem to be covered.
    I think it's explained well enough. In fact, the system we designed prior to either of these books print for our Adventurer's Guild bonuses in Dungeon of the Mad Mage is a nearly exact match to the Guild Patron.

    For new players and DM's, simply using a template is going to be an easy and quick solution. For those edge cases you mention, you're likely already becoming or are an experienced player and adjusting the rules should be something you're familiar with now.

    For 5e, rules don't need to be introduced with a huge amount of detail so long as they're functional and have room for tuning. That's kind of how the system is designed.

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    In fact, the system we designed prior to either of these books print for our Adventurer's Guild bonuses in Dungeon of the Mad Mage is a nearly exact match to the Guild Patron.
    you say we, what is that about.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    I am actually happy to have compendium-style books reprint mechanical elements to keep them all in one place. Also, though I realize this is not a concern for everyone, the more options that are consolidated into one book the easier it is to use those options in Adventurer's League games. (Not that we really get to play in those any more.)

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    The Cantrips being reprinted give them a sense of being official since they were originally printed in a campaign world sourcebook. It's the same reason Artificer was printed so that it's not only for Eberron. They didn't have to, but some DMs need authenticity. The Tasha book has more clout as an official expansion than Sword Coast Adventure Guide which is "only" for Forgottten Realms. It was done before where spells from Princes of Apocalypse module book were reprinted in Xanathar.

    The Summon spells are a useful necessity. Some players are really bothered by the Conjure spells. Some don't like multiple creatures appearing lengthening combat time. Some insist the DM chooses what comes and players don't like loss of control of their own spell or the DM doesn't give them what they want. Some don't like particular creatures that are accessible to be conjured even accepting players control what is conjured. The Summon spells are a compromise. It's one known creature for the spell, does its job, and the player can choose an ability appropriate to the situation. A problem with them is for Shepherd Druid which has a class ability based on HD of what he conjures. The Summon Spell creatures don't have HD, so you either have to house rule a fix or Shepherd Druid continues to cast his Conjure Spells.

    The above is not to mean the Summon spells are or should be a replacement for the Conjure spells. Those still exist and gaming groups may continue to use them as they see fit.
    Last edited by Pex; 2020-11-21 at 08:50 PM.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by tsuyoshikentsu View Post
    I am actually happy to have compendium-style books reprint mechanical elements to keep them all in one place. Also, though I realize this is not a concern for everyone, the more options that are consolidated into one book the easier it is to use those options in Adventurer's League games. (Not that we really get to play in those any more.)
    I like the consolidation of rules I just feel these rules were underbaked. I wish they reprinted piety in this book as while with some Forgotten realms examples.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    The Cantrips being reprinted give them a sense of being official since they were originally printed in a campaign world sourcebook. It's the same reason Artificer was printed so that it's not only for Eberron. They didn't have to, but some DMs need authenticity. The Tasha book has more clout as an official expansion than Sword Coast Adventure Guide which is "only" for Forgottten Realms. It was done before where spells from Princes of Apocalypse module book were reprinted in Xanathar.

    The Summon spells are a useful necessity. Some players are really bothered by the Conjure spells. Some don't like multiple creatures appearing lengthing combat time. Some insist the DM chooses what comes and players don't like loss of control of their own spell or the DM doesn't give them what they want. Some don't like particular creatures that are accessible to be conjured even accepting players control what is conjured. The Summon spells are a compromise. It's one known creature for the spell, does its job, and the player can choose an ability appropriate to the situation. A problem with them is for Shepherd Druid which has a class ability based on HD of what he conjures. The Summon Spell creatures don't have HD, so you either have to house rule a fix or Shepherd Druid continues to cast his Conjure Spells.

    The above is not to mean the Summon spells are or should be a replacement for the Conjure spells. Those still exist and gaming groups may continue to use them as they see fit.
    I agree with all of this but I feel that all the summon x spirit spells could have just been compressed into 2 a 3rd level and 4th level with all the same features but just more options. what do you think of that?
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Surprised on the lack of chatter on Tasha's mind whip. It's a beast for a 2nd level slot and the Debuff on a weaker save is worth it even disregarding the damage.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    We didn't need any new spells, heck, the immense pile of spells is already unwieldy. But we got some anyway, and what is wrong with a different take on summoning? Nothing. Of all of the added spells (besides the reprints form SCAG and the adventure on the ice, the summoning ones (being customizable) are a nice addition in terms of having another option for a summons.
    I like more spells. An unweildy list to select from is how a game gives good players the opportunity to have better PCs than bad players. A small list of nothing but good spells/options forces bad players into good choices. A game that forces everyone to be good is like a school exercise with no winners and participation trophies all around... a great safe space, but no fun for anyone.

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Surprised on the lack of chatter on Tasha's mind whip. It's a beast for a 2nd level slot and the Debuff on a weaker save is worth it even disregarding the damage.
    you are right I should have talked about the other spells more. I feel the rest of the new spells are good but fall into the needs more support like acid damage. great ideas but we need more spells like them and should have gotten more spells like them.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    We didn't need any new spells, heck, the immense pile of spells is already unwieldy. But we got some anyway, and what is wrong with a different take on summoning? Nothing. Of all of the added spells (besides the reprints form SCAG and the adventure on the ice, the summoning ones (being customizable) are a nice addition in terms of having another option for a summons.
    This. There are so many spells already. If WotC wants to offer more players options, it should look at alternative totem options, alternative battlemaster maneuvers, alternative 4e-monk features, alternative invocations, alternative pact boons, alternative fighting styles, and alternative class features that replace current features. I think tasha does quite a lot of those - dunno how good since Europe doesn't get tasha's till december, but personally I'd prefer any new options above the one that already has the highest quantity.

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    I like more spells. An unweildy list to select from is how a game gives good players the opportunity to have better PCs than bad players. A small list of nothing but good spells/options forces bad players into good choices. A game that forces everyone to be good is like a school exercise with no winners and participation trophies all around... a great safe space, but no fun for anyone.
    I understand where you are coming from but I feel the unwieldy amount of spells actively prevents good choices. think about this. picking the best fire spell is easy, but there are so many fire spells that are not only bad but horrible. now look at acid. there are some clear choices for good spells but there are so few you predy much have to take all of them if you are an acid focused character. this is what I think many people mean by unwieldy. there are some spell types so over-represented they actively remove choice. then there are spells groups that lack any support.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    This. There are so many spells already. If WotC wants to offer more players options, it should look at alternative totem options, alternative battlemaster maneuvers, alternative 4e-monk features, alternative invocations, alternative pact boons, alternative fighting styles, and alternative class features that replace current features. I think tasha does quite a lot of those - dunno how good since Europe doesn't get tasha's till december, but personally I'd prefer any new options above the one that already has the highest quantity.
    I agree kinda, yes I think WotC should focus on alts like that but there are some spell types so underrepresented that they need new spells. personly the alt feature system is bad. it should have had 2 or 3 more revisions before getting to a book. real choices instead of direct buff. I would be fine with direct buff so long as there are other options with the same power.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Amdy_vill View Post
    you say we, what is that about.
    My group? We wanted to turn the tavern into an adventurer's guild and worked a system out with our DM. Lines up nearly 1 to 1 with this system and we made it almost 2 years ago now.

    EDIT: To make my point clear, this is more than enough information if what amounts the same thing has been serving my group for near 2 years. It's more in slightly more in depth than what we came up with while being equally understandable. At that point we were newish to DND, I think it's fine.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-11-21 at 02:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    My group? We wanted to turn the tavern into an adventurer's guild and worked a system out with our DM. Lines up nearly 1 to 1 with this system and we made it almost 2 years ago now.
    the way you were talking made It seem like you were a developer and you were referencing the faction system.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    I like more spells. An unweildy list to select from is how a game gives good players the opportunity to have better PCs than bad players. A small list of nothing but good spells/options forces bad players into good choices. A game that forces everyone to be good is like a school exercise with no winners and participation trophies all around... a great safe space, but no fun for anyone.
    Not sure I agree with the "it is not enough for me to succeed; others must fail" mentality being applied to a cooperative game. The biggest flaw of 3.X was Ivory Tower game design, which ended up bloating the game with a fair amount of crap. Imagine how much better it could've been if they weren't actively trying to make the game worse for some people. I'm in favor of more spells (and maneuvers and feats and so on) for providing a greater number of options, but they absolutely should not put stuff in the game to potentially make certain players play worse. And if not for those players' sake then for the sake of their groups.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    I really dont get why they dont do more spells and feats.

    They can add more life to so many different character options. To be honest, a wizard, even one of a different school, tends to feel pretty identical to another if they have the same spells. A wizard, even one of the same school, tends to feel pretty different to another if they have different spells.

    Per column inch, I think spells and feats add a lot more life to the game than new classes, subclasses and especially races.

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I really dont get why they dont do more spells and feats.

    They can add more life to so many different character options. To be honest, a wizard, even one of a different school, tends to feel pretty identical to another if they have the same spells. A wizard, even one of the same school, tends to feel pretty different to another if they have different spells.

    Per column inch, I think spells and feats add a lot more life to the game than new classes, subclasses and especially races.
    I agree. feats don't get love because they're "optional" despite even official play using it and I have no clue why spell doesn't get love. I think a focus on inner class option would be better. totem and maneuvers. but not all classes have them so there's that problem.
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  23. - Top - End - #23
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    It does seem a little odd that Tasha's book specifically is lacking in the spell department considering the fluff behind her. Lots of little snippets about how cool+awesome magic is and then the actual spell selection she shows off leaves me a bit wanting.

    Does feel a little harsh that I might not care if the book had a different lore characters name on it but hey-ho, such is life.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I really dont get why they dont do more spells and feats.

    They can add more life to so many different character options. To be honest, a wizard, even one of a different school, tends to feel pretty identical to another if they have the same spells. A wizard, even one of the same school, tends to feel pretty different to another if they have different spells.
    But isn't that in part because of spell balance issues rather than spell number. There are a number of spells that are straight out superior to other options, so they become the obvious default choices. I'd rather they addressed balance issues with existing spells and cantrips in a book like Tasha's, rather than printing new spells 3.5E style. A spell list of 5000+ spells doesn't actually provide a lot of diversity in play when 1000 are so bad that no body uses them, 2000 are just worse-versions of other spells, and 100 spells break the power curve for utility and impact. In play you'll mostly see the 100 spells (and a smattering of the rest), because people are disincentised from picking objectively less-effective options.

    Same thing for feats. Some of them suck pretty hard - so the actual list most people choose between is pretty small.

    Plus rebalancing the spell/feat list is newbie friendly as it doesn't add to bloat and removes trap options that will contribute to them feeling inneffective.

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Moreb Benhk View Post
    But isn't that in part because of spell balance issues rather than spell number. There are a number of spells that are straight out superior to other options, so they become the obvious default choices. I'd rather they addressed balance issues with existing spells and cantrips in a book like Tasha's, rather than printing new spells 3.5E style. A spell list of 5000+ spells doesn't actually provide a lot of diversity in play when 1000 are so bad that no body uses them, 2000 are just worse-versions of other spells, and 100 spells break the power curve for utility and impact. In play you'll mostly see the 100 spells (and a smattering of the rest), because people are disincentised from picking objectively less-effective options.

    Same thing for feats. Some of them suck pretty hard - so the actual list most people choose between is pretty small.

    Plus rebalancing the spell/feat list is newbie friendly as it doesn't add to bloat and removes trap options that will contribute to them feeling inneffective.
    I agree but we are talking about there being ideas you just can execute in dnd. acid draconic sorcerers are almost impossible. they have more support now but still lack spells in certain levels. When I say we need more spells I am focusing on this type of spell expantion.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Amdy_vill View Post
    I agree but we are talking about there being ideas you just can execute in dnd. acid draconic sorcerers are almost impossible. they have more support now but still lack spells in certain levels. When I say we need more spells I am focusing on this type of spell expantion.
    There is a new metamagic that lets them change the damage type, so acid fireballs are now a thing.

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Moreb Benhk View Post
    But isn't that in part because of spell balance issues rather than spell number. There are a number of spells that are straight out superior to other options, so they become the obvious default choices. I'd rather they addressed balance issues with existing spells and cantrips in a book like Tasha's, rather than printing new spells 3.5E style. A spell list of 5000+ spells doesn't actually provide a lot of diversity in play when 1000 are so bad that no body uses them, 2000 are just worse-versions of other spells, and 100 spells break the power curve for utility and impact. In play you'll mostly see the 100 spells (and a smattering of the rest), because people are disincentised from picking objectively less-effective options.

    Same thing for feats. Some of them suck pretty hard - so the actual list most people choose between is pretty small.

    Plus rebalancing the spell/feat list is newbie friendly as it doesn't add to bloat and removes trap options that will contribute to them feeling inneffective.
    But this also applies to subclasses as well. I can count the number of frenzy barbarians, 4 elements monks, champion fighters that I have DMed for on the fingers of one head. Whatever it is people are choosing from they tend to pick the better option. Its true of any content. Yet still they release new subclasses.

    I dont think that the issue of a characters spell list being too powerful is an issue either. Much like alternative class features, create some spells as alternatives. If there was a spell that was a explicit replacement for wall of force, as in you could have one or the other, then there wouldnt be much of a problem at all.

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by sophontteks View Post
    There is a new metamagic that lets them change the damage type, so acid fireballs are now a thing.
    yes but its part of an optional rule and only helps one acid base character.
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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Not sure I agree with the "it is not enough for me to succeed; others must fail" mentality being applied to a cooperative game. The biggest flaw of 3.X was Ivory Tower game design, which ended up bloating the game with a fair amount of crap. Imagine how much better it could've been if they weren't actively trying to make the game worse for some people. I'm in favor of more spells (and maneuvers and feats and so on) for providing a greater number of options, but they absolutely should not put stuff in the game to potentially make certain players play worse. And if not for those players' sake then for the sake of their groups.
    That 3.x flaw was an after the fact rationalization - rather than admit they were incompetent at balance, they said it was on purpose.

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    Default Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Amdy_vill View Post
    yes but its part of an optional rule and only helps one acid base character.
    It's a rule in the new book that addresses your concern. I can play a sorcerer as any element and change the element with sorcery points to fill in the gaps.

    I don't put too much stake on it being optional. Feats are optional and I've yet to see a game run without them.
    Last edited by sophontteks; 2020-11-21 at 05:02 PM.

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