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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Just a random thought that occurred; after Haley bypasses the trap and the party head into the Dungeon, they turn a corner...
    And come face to face with Team Evil.
    However, Team Evil doesn't notice them, and attacks against them don't connect. The trap, it turns out, shunts the ones who trip it into a demiplane where the monsters are kept, and shunts them back as they leave. This demiplane acts like a reverse Ethereal Plane; people in the real world can see and hear things from the demiplane, but not vice versa. GreenSpeaker and OrangeSpeaker were agents of Serini who operate from the real set of tunnels, that nobody else has access to. They didn't attack the paladins because of anything Team Evil were doing; they were perfectly content to let them stumble in the dark till their luck ran out. They attacked the paladins because they heard the Order were en route, and a high level team of adventurers would be better equipped to foil their defences than an epic Lich.
    Evidence: none. Like I said, baseless flailing. Thoughts?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    I like it!

    Team Evil is outside, but that's not an obstacle. They could enter the same dungeon through another door.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Interesting, there might indeed be something more going on with this trap! I love the idea that tripping the trap means you're guaranteed to flounder about with no chance of ever finding the Gate. Not sure if it's the Ethereal/Other plane, but could definitely picture something similar.

    Also helped by Team Evil's lack of a rogue -- if the trap doesn't telegraph itself as it triggers, they'd have no reason to ever notice it!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I like it!

    Team Evil is outside, but that's not an obstacle. They could enter the same dungeon through another door.
    Last we saw of Team Evil, they hadn't left the Dungeon. Greyview was en route to them, but how much time lapsed between Team Evil entering and Team Cleric surfacing? A minute, five minutes? It could take Greyview a while to find the others.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Interesting, there might indeed be something more going on with this trap! I love the idea that tripping the trap means you're guaranteed to flounder about with no chance of ever finding the Gate. Not sure if it's the Ethereal/Other plane, but could definitely picture something similar.

    Also helped by Team Evil's lack of a rogue -- if the trap doesn't telegraph itself as it triggers, they'd have no reason to ever notice it!
    I'd thought something like this, but the Bugbears have been farming these tunnels for awhile. And someone pointed out to me that Rogue is the favored class for Bugbears.

    It doesn't seem reasonable that a Bugbear Rogue wouldn't have noticed the presence of the runes before now. A Bugbear Rogue might have taken 10 or 20 before entering a strange dungeon---wouldn't you?----which should make up for Haley's much higher level and likely Search skill. If they did notice them, wouldn't they have told Oona about them, even if only in passing?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    I'd thought something like this, but the Bugbears have been farming these tunnels for awhile. And someone pointed out to me that Rogue is the favored class for Bugbears.

    It doesn't seem reasonable that a Bugbear Rogue wouldn't have noticed the presence of the runes before now. A Bugbear Rogue might have taken 10 or 20 before entering a strange dungeon---wouldn't you?----which should make up for Haley's much higher level and likely Search skill. If they did notice them, wouldn't they have told Oona about them, even if only in passing?
    I get the feeling these bugbears are more Ranger than Rogue, more Barbarian than Fighter. It would be strange if *none* of the bugbears took Rogue, or the Dungeon Delver prestige (which, if memory serves, fluffwise fits the exact situation the bugbears live in). But magic traps are (from what I recall) incredibly high DCs, and since we don't know the average level of the bugbear population or their mortality rate hunting in Monster Manual II to survive, we don't know if they have a high enough level rogue.

    My own theory of how they dealt with traps involves sending a Barbarian in first on the end of a 20ft rope, but again, no proof that ever happened.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    I guess we're finally doing this, huh? Fun while it lasted, right?
    What was, Boss?
    Existing.
    Green Voice and Orange Voice sure don't sound like they're there to defend the Gate, as agents of Serini or in any other capacity.
    Last edited by ti'esar; 2020-11-25 at 08:42 AM.
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    Check this game out! Or at least give it a thumbs up.
    Why "because the plot said so" is not a good answer.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    I get the feeling these bugbears are more Ranger than Rogue, more Barbarian than Fighter. It would be strange if *none* of the bugbears took Rogue, or the Dungeon Delver prestige (which, if memory serves, fluffwise fits the exact situation the bugbears live in). But magic traps are (from what I recall) incredibly high DCs, and since we don't know the average level of the bugbear population or their mortality rate hunting in Monster Manual II to survive, we don't know if they have a high enough level rogue...
    That's my feeling as well on the likelihood of there being many Rogues in the village, favored class or not. Just what is there for them to do? It's a small village. Everyone likely knows everyone, and therefore knows where to go looking if stuff goes missing...and so on.

    Would Haley's Search skill likely be more than 20 than one of these hypothetical, low-level Bugbear Rogues? It didn't look like she was formally searching for traps, but that the runes were something that you'd notice IF you were a Rogue and able to see them in the first place.

    Or she rolled a 20, LOL. Beats them rolling a bunch of 1's to make the story work.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    Green Voice and Orange Voice sure don't sound like they're there to defend the Gate, as agents of Serini or in any other capacity.
    Why do you come to that conclusion? For instance, if you assume that they’re magical creations of Serini that are created for a specific purpose and disappear when that task is complete, their dialogue makes perfect sense.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 17 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 7 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    My pronouns are he/his.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Metastachydium's Avatar

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    I don't know. Everyone 'round here keeps assuming that Serini, a rogue, somehow has access to insane amounts of epic-level magic (I mean, creating hypercompetent intelligent flying creatures that can exist indefinitely but will disappear once their task is finished? Creating loads of magic traps that transport just about any number of people (without their noticing it happens) into a parallel dimension she somehow stashed ever-respawning monsters in?) Of course, she must have had magical help. Otherwise the construction of the Tomb would in all probability still be an ongoing process. But then, that only raises further questions: whom did she trust with the whole layout of the Tomb, for instance?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Why do you come to that conclusion? For instance, if you assume that they’re magical creations of Serini that are created for a specific purpose and disappear when that task is complete, their dialogue makes perfect sense.
    They captured the paladins while Team Evil are out to grab the gate for evil purposes.

    I have a hard time imagining how they'd work for Serini, an epic rogue.

    Which, again, is a rogue. High level magic tends to summon powerful creature, not create them out of nothingness. And she isn't a spellcaster.

    The most obvious reference they can be interpreted as saying is that their actions will lead to the fall of the Gate, which will lead to the material plane being destroyed. And since they are saying "existing", and not "living", an indication that the snarl will break loose and destroy everything.

    Are other interpretations possible. Sure. But them being creations of Serini seems implausible.
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    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I don't know. Everyone 'round here keeps assuming that Serini, a rogue, somehow has access to insane amounts of epic-level magic (I mean, creating hypercompetent intelligent flying creatures that can exist indefinitely but will disappear once their task is finished? Creating loads of magic traps that transport just about any number of people (without their noticing it happens) into a parallel dimension she somehow stashed ever-respawning monsters in?) Of course, she must have had magical help. Otherwise the construction of the Tomb would in all probability still be an ongoing process. But then, that only raises further questions: whom did she trust with the whole layout of the Tomb, for instance?
    Well, the first one requires magic that is nowhere near epic (possibly leaving aside the 'hypercompetent' part, but that's debatable). The second one would cost many millions of gold, but the hardest part (getting loads of high-level monsters to constantly respawn) seems to be one of the only things about Kraagor's Tomb that is actually confirmed (or close to it, anyway).

    I think we just have to assume that Serini had an insane amount of resources to build the Tomb, because otherwise the whole project is pretty inexplicable.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 17 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 7 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    My pronouns are he/his.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    I dunno, what are the rules on epic trap making? Do you *need* to be a caster, or would epic UMD let you fake it?
    I read Green and Orange as knowing the end of the world was nigh; if they worked for Serini they'd know 4/5 Gates had dropped, 3 in the last few years, and it'd only take some scrying and auguries to find the Order of the Stick were involved. Therefore with both Team Evil and the Order being present in the canyon, chances are *someone* would do something wrong and crack the gate. One of the threads that keeps getting played in Oots is nobody knows the full story; everyone is acting on incomplete information. It's possible, because the Order has deliberately destroyed two gates while Team Evil only accidentally destroyed one, that O+G think the Order are the bigger threat.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    I read G+O as non-hostile towards the paladins. Green could simply have killed Scar and Sharkey, but instead used a more expensive poison to capture them. And then took the extra effort of erasing signs of her presence without erasing the paladins' tracks.

    This screams of beings who want to help the OotS without exposing themselves to attack from Team Evil.

    My guess is that they are related to Serini, possibly as gate guardians of some sort. My hope is that Green is Serini transformed into a non-mortal form, such as was done with golem-Crystal.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I don't know. Everyone 'round here keeps assuming that Serini, a rogue, somehow has access to insane amounts of epic-level magic (I mean, creating hypercompetent intelligent flying creatures that can exist indefinitely but will disappear once their task is finished? Creating loads of magic traps that transport just about any number of people (without their noticing it happens) into a parallel dimension she somehow stashed ever-respawning monsters in?) Of course, she must have had magical help. Otherwise the construction of the Tomb would in all probability still be an ongoing process. But then, that only raises further questions: whom did she trust with the whole layout of the Tomb, for instance?
    Alone of the members of the Scribble, Serini seemed to get along with everyone. Is it conceivable that she asked some or all of the other members to help her build her Tomb? Asked Lirian, "What's the best way to set up a self-sustaining ecology in these dungeons?" Or Dorukan for the easiest way to install a permanent, resetting Teleport trap? Etc...

    Talk to each of the other members by themselves, play on their egos to ask them to help the kid of the group, and trust that their anger and paranoia would ensure they didn't talk to each other and compare notes?

    No idea who Green and Orange are

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Metastachydium's Avatar

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    I dunno, what are the rules on epic trap making? Do you *need* to be a caster, or would epic UMD let you fake it?
    If UMD alone lets you create an intersection between dimensions of such a size as well as a system to regulate the respawning of up to epic monsters, something is seriously wrong with this game.

    I read Green and Orange as knowing the end of the world was nigh; if they worked for Serini they'd know 4/5 Gates had dropped, 3 in the last few years, and it'd only take some scrying and auguries to find the Order of the Stick were involved. Therefore with both Team Evil and the Order being present in the canyon, chances are *someone* would do something wrong and crack the gate. One of the threads that keeps getting played in Oots is nobody knows the full story; everyone is acting on incomplete information. It's possible, because the Order has deliberately destroyed two gates while Team Evil only accidentally destroyed one, that O+G think the Order are the bigger threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I read G+O as non-hostile towards the paladins. Green could simply have killed Scar and Sharkey, but instead used a more expensive poison to capture them. And then took the extra effort of erasing signs of her presence without erasing the paladins' tracks.

    This screams of beings who want to help the OotS without exposing themselves to attack from Team Evil.
    I'm not sure they would have let the Order's allies live if they believed the Order is the greatest threat to the fabric of the universe. It could make sense though had they considered the Order doom magnets without ill intent and therefore not in need of killing.
    At any rate, I'd say the Voices are clearly a third faction rather than the Order's allies. Capturing the paladins does not help the Order at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Alone of the members of the Scribble, Serini seemed to get along with everyone. Is it conceivable that she asked some or all of the other members to help her build her Tomb? Asked Lirian, "What's the best way to set up a self-sustaining ecology in these dungeons?" Or Dorukan for the easiest way to install a permanent, resetting Teleport trap? Etc...

    Talk to each of the other members by themselves, play on their egos to ask them to help the kid of the group, and trust that their anger and paranoia would ensure they didn't talk to each other and compare notes?
    Yeah, in theory, that could be it.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    If UMD alone lets you create an intersection between dimensions of such a size as well as a system to regulate the respawning of up to epic monsters, something is seriously wrong with this game.
    ... Is that a yes or a no?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Metastachydium's Avatar

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    ... Is that a yes or a no?
    A maybe with a side of ”seriously??”

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    A maybe with a side of ”seriously??”
    All I'm saying is, if the argument is 'if epic UMD lets you do this, then 3.5 is deeply flawed', then, um, dunno how to say this, but the second part of that argument is pretty much a given. Like First-Draft-Psychatog flawed.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Metastachydium's Avatar

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    All I'm saying is, if the argument is 'if epic UMD lets you do this, then 3.5 is deeply flawed', then, um, dunno how to say this, but the second part of that argument is pretty much a given. Like First-Draft-Psychatog flawed.

    I'm not sure I want to know the details.
    (A minor nitpick, though: the SRD tells me that UMD does not possess an epic usage.)

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Psychatog was an m:tg card that I believe is banned from all forms of the game, because it was too powerful and games devolved into 'first-to-tog' matches. Apparently even before it was printed, it was going to be even more powerful, allowing players to put a card from the library into their graveyard to give the tog +1/+1 till end of turn (there are 60 cards minimum to a deck and players have 20 starting life).
    Weird that UMD got left out of the epic skills usage crapshoot. Would've thought spell emulation up to a certain level wouldn't be too bad?

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Serini was an epic level rogue. Haley is a mid-teens level rogue and is rich enough to pay to have an airship rebuilt and refit in one day. Serini was obviously hiring help to build the tomb in the one panel we saw. She was obviously stupid-rich, and epic mages live in chronic cash-flow shortages due to the cost of magic experimentation. It does not require an 18 Int score to see how beneficial it would be to hire on to such a project and have someone else pay wages and expenses as you level up.

    Serini's UMD is irrelevant. It's what's in her bags of holding that counts.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Serini was an epic level rogue. Haley is a mid-teens level rogue and is rich enough to pay to have an airship rebuilt and refit in one day. Serini was obviously hiring help to build the tomb in the one panel we saw. She was obviously stupid-rich, and epic mages live in chronic cash-flow shortages due to the cost of magic experimentation. It does not require an 18 Int score to see how beneficial it would be to hire on to such a project and have someone else pay wages and expenses as you level up.

    Serini's UMD is irrelevant. It's what's in her bags of holding that counts.
    Assuming there are Epic Mages around to be hired. I thought the consensus was that the Order were some of the highest leveled adventurers around, only behind entities like the Vector Legion, etc...?

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Synesthesy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Assuming there are Epic Mages around to be hired. I thought the consensus was that the Order were some of the highest leveled adventurers around, only behind entities like the Vector Legion, etc...?
    Yeah, but if you need a job done, in the next tavern you can find 1d4 people with the right spell abilities, or at least the right ammount of scrolls, magic items, etc.
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  25. - Top - End - #25
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Also I'm not sure if what I've suggested would even count as epic magic. 'modified Gates' would cover what I had in mind.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Congratulations?

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Metastachydium's Avatar

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Well, technically the demiplane (or whatever) doesn't act as a reverse Ethereal Plane, since the two planes do not seem to be coexistent.
    Also, the Voices are agents of Tiamat, period.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
     
    WindStruck's Avatar

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    Yes, congrats!

    Lots of people argue and debate on these forums, often times demanding proof of this or that when in reality there pretty much always is no proof. The "proof" comes in later comic strips.

    Very good guess though. They were my thoughts as well.
    Summer Fashion Drow avatar drawn by linklele (and I may have made a few adjustments).

    Nexus character: Solstice

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Baseless flailing posing as speculation

    An intriguing idea - but it would also mean that Green and Orange have the ability to freely phase between planes, based on their interactions with O'Chul and Lien.

    I'm also not sure they would come to the conclusion that a team of mid-level adventurers who were yet to arrive were more of a threat than an epic lich, the high priest of a dark god, whatever the MITD is, and an army of bugbears.

    At least, not so much that they would take preemptive action that could then reveal their presence. I think Green and Orange want something from O'Chul and Lien.

    My money remains on "teleport trap" without the demiplane, but it remains an intriguing idea.

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