Weather CR0?

[PraxisVetli]

So I don't know about most DM's, but every table I've ever played at, weather was rarely more complex than "Sunny", "Cloudy", or "Nighttime." Now I'm running a campaign, and trying to make it matter, at least a little. I was pretty surprised at how complex weather actually is in dnd, with things like temperature bands, and different wind strengths and all that. I'd just really never cared to look at it, you know? How much could it really matter?
Of course, then I made my players try to steer a ship in a hurricane, and uh, it mattered! But according to the DMG, unless it's at least a Tornado, they get no XP for it, at least RAW. Not only that, but if it is a Tornado, it's CR 10. How does it go from 0-10?
The three environmental supplements didn't provide much help either!
EDIT: Duststorms are CR 3.
Even Supernatural Hazards don't provide a CR, Sandstorm's Devil Dunes, indestructible 60' speed opponent that doesn't need rest is apparently just a default thing? That they get no xp for solving/surviving?
Has anyone else dealt with this, and found a solution?

Obviously, if they have trouble but prevail, give them xp. I know that. But I was hoping there would be some sort of way to identify how much trouble I can expect them to have, before doing it. Eyeballing it is fine, but I hoped for something.. consistent?
inb4 CR system ≠ consistent

[Crake]

Weather rarely on it's own provides a significant enough challenge to warrant having a CR, but you could use it to justify an ad-hoc adjustment to an encounter.

[PraxisVetli]

Weather rarely on it's own provides a significant enough challenge to warrant having a CR, but you could use it to justify an ad-hoc adjustment to an encounter.

Yet manifesting a Blizzard is a 4th level spell, and that only lasts rounds, minutes at best, and a full blizzard is 1d3 days. Doesn't that seem odd? If there was a creature who could do this, would it not affect an encounter? Or would a magic item that could do this not affect the players' strength?
Yes, it could be an ad-hoc extra challenge, but why is "traverse 50 miles to the next village in this blizzard" not worth anything, since "travers 50 miles in the warm sunshine" is also worth nothing?
Is there really no significant difference?


For clarity, a Blizzard presents:

Wind: Fort DC 18 vs:
Small or smaller Blown away
Medium Knocked down
Large or Huge Checked
Gargantuan or Colossal None

Snow:
Visibility by ½; -4 to Spot, -8 to Listen specific
Ranged siege attacks at -4 penalty, regular are impossible
4x movement penalty
10% chance of Lightning
No visibility past 5', so creatures >5' get concealment (20% Miss Chance)

And also causes Whiteout:

Whiteout conditions occur in snowstorms or blizzards
accompanied by a strong or stronger wind force. However,
it doesn’t have to be precipitating to create whiteout conditions.
Snow fields buffeted by severe or stronger winds can
also cause creatures to experience a whiteout.
Characters in whiteout conditions take a –2 penalty to
AC, lose any Dexterity bonus to AC, move at half speed, and
take a –4 penalty on Dexterity-based skill checks, as well as
Search, Spot, and any other checks that rely on vision. The
character also gains total concealment (50% miss chance).
These effects end when the character leaves the area of
whiteout. Whiteout conditions stack with wind and snowfall.
Visibility is 5 feet.

[Seto]

So, from what I'm reading, the Blizzard is not a challenge, because it carries no consequences. It is unfailable, and doesn't drain any resources. It doesn't cause damage, etc. The only thing that could justify it being an encounter in itself, is the need for Fort saves to progress at all. Indeed that could be a skill challenge (Survival to find a clever way to anchor yourself in the ground?).
But ultimately, if you try to play up the Blizzard as a RAW mechanical challenge, I don't see it being interesting. Either your players have a way to bypass the Fort saves, and they can progress, or they don't and they keep getting blown back until they get enough good rolls in a row. Since there's no consequence for failing and nothing preventing them from attempting it indefinitely, it's better to just spend one minute on roleplaying the thing, rather than an infinite series of dice rolls without anything at stake.

What the Blizzard is, however, is an incredibly brutal debuff. Notice how, with the exception of the Fort save, everything it gives you is penalties to combat/perception etc.? Meaning the Blizzard is best used in conjunction with something else that causes actual danger and consequences (and the Blizzard should increase the CR, in this case). A monster attacking you in blizzard? That's interesting. Trying to steer a ship that might crash or sink, as you described? Interesting. Just going to a town 50 miles away? Not so much.

That's my answer based on the mechanics as-written, but of course you are right that crossing a blizzard could and should be a challenge worth XP in itself. But that won't work with the blizzard as-written. You'd need to add home-brewed consequences and stakes: cold damage, risk of getting buried under snow, risk of the party getting split up and lost in dangerous places...

[Falontani]

Yet manifesting a Blizzard is a 4th level spell, and that only lasts rounds, minutes at best, and a full blizzard is 1d3 days. Doesn't that seem odd? If there was a creature who could do this, would it not affect an encounter? Or would a magic item that could do this not affect the players' strength?
Yes, it could be an ad-hoc extra challenge, but why is "traverse 50 miles to the next village in this blizzard" not worth anything, since "travers 50 miles in the warm sunshine" is also worth nothing?
Is there really no significant difference?


For clarity, a Blizzard presents:

And also causes Whiteout:

Don't forget the following:

Blizzard: Increase the DC to avoid becoming lost by 6. Whiteout: Increase the DC to avoid becoming lost by 10. Yes they are separate stacking increases to the DC. Meaning in the mountains during a Blizzard+Whiteout (relatively best chance in most cold environment) you have a DC 28 survival check to not get lost per hour. If they do get lost, then for every hour they are lost in this blizzard+whiteout they need to make an increasingly difficult DC 31 +2/hour they've been lost survival check. Most non druids or non rangers aren't finding their way.

Next up we have the cold. For a blizzard to exist nonmagically, you require a temperature of at least the Cold temperature band, from 0 to 40 F or from 4 to -18 C. The Windspeed of a blizzard decreases the effective temperature band to at least Severe Cold -18 to -29 C. This requires con checks every 10 minutes unless you have magical aid, or a good amount of mundane aid. Failure indicates you will start getting hypothermia, which is fatigue, exhausted, and then disabled. In as little as a half hour the Elf Wizard in robes is going to be disabled.

[PraxisVetli]

So, from what I'm reading, the Blizzard is not a challenge, because it carries no consequences. It is unfailable, and doesn't drain any resources. It doesn't cause damage, etc. The only thing that could justify it being an encounter in itself, is the need for Fort saves to progress at all. Indeed that could be a skill challenge (Survival to find a clever way to anchor yourself in the ground?).
But ultimately, if you try to play up the Blizzard as a RAW mechanical challenge, I don't see it being interesting. Either your players have a way to bypass the Fort saves, and they can progress, or they don't and they keep getting blown back until they get enough good rolls in a row. Since there's no consequence for failing and nothing preventing them from attempting it indefinitely, it's better to just spend one minute on roleplaying the thing, rather than an infinite series of dice rolls without anything at stake.

What the Blizzard is, however, is an incredibly brutal debuff. Notice how, with the exception of the Fort save, everything it gives you is penalties to combat/perception etc.? Meaning the Blizzard is best used in conjunction with something else that causes actual danger and consequences (and the Blizzard should increase the CR, in this case). A monster attacking you in blizzard? That's interesting. Trying to steer a ship that might crash or sink, as you described? Interesting. Just going to a town 50 miles away? Not so much.

That's my answer based on the mechanics as-written, but of course you are right that crossing a blizzard could and should be a challenge worth XP in itself. But that won't work with the blizzard as-written. You'd need to add home-brewed consequences and stakes: cold damage, risk of getting buried under snow, risk of the party getting split up and lost in dangerous places...

This makes a lot of sense, actually, so thank you.
Though on the note of home-brewed consequences, the cold is already a thing, thanks to the weather bands, assuming the players lack protection. Really depends if they see the blizzard coming. Getting buried, maybe if they're asleep, unsheltered? But that's kinda their fault, I think. Getting lost, well, if visibility is 5', and someone loses sight of whoever has the Survival ranks that's been keeping them headed in the right direction, well, then they're rolling on their own. And as Falontani points out:

Don't forget the following:

Blizzard: Increase the DC to avoid becoming lost by 6. Whiteout: Increase the DC to avoid becoming lost by 10. Yes they are separate stacking increases to the DC. Meaning in the mountains during a Blizzard+Whiteout (relatively best chance in most cold environment) you have a DC 28 survival check to not get lost per hour. If they do get lost, then for every hour they are lost in this blizzard+whiteout they need to make an increasingly difficult DC 31 +2/hour they've been lost survival check. Most non druids or non rangers aren't finding their way.

Next up we have the cold. For a blizzard to exist nonmagically, you require a temperature of at least the Cold temperature band, from 0 to 40 F or from 4 to -18 C. The Windspeed of a blizzard decreases the effective temperature band to at least Severe Cold -18 to -29 C. This requires con checks every 10 minutes unless you have magical aid, or a good amount of mundane aid. Failure indicates you will start getting hypothermia, which is fatigue, exhausted, and then disabled. In as little as a half hour the Elf Wizard in robes is going to be disabled.

I somehow missed the stacking penalty to Survival, but did catch the temperature band change. Thanks!


OK, but really guys.
This is all well and good, for the Blizzard.
But can we please talk about the predatory sand dune??
What is THAT about??

[Crake]

Next up we have the cold. For a blizzard to exist nonmagically, you require a temperature of at least the Cold temperature band, from 0 to 40 F or from 4 to -18 C. The Windspeed of a blizzard decreases the effective temperature band to at least Severe Cold -18 to -29 C. This requires con checks every 10 minutes unless you have magical aid, or a good amount of mundane aid. Failure indicates you will start getting hypothermia, which is fatigue, exhausted, and then disabled. In as little as a half hour the Elf Wizard in robes is going to be disabled.

Endure elements handles severe cold like a champ, a level 1 spell, keep that in mind. With frostburn, and the introduction of a cold band beyond severe cold, unearthly cold, you can get around with just endure elementals and some furs...

That being said, even without endure elements, an improvised shelter gives you the same protection vs the cold as endure elements does, so even an inexperienced group could bunker down, put on some warm clothes, and just aim to wait out the blizzard. Also keep in mind that it's a mere DC15 survival check to predict the weather 24 hours in advance, so most groups shouldn't be caught completely off guard by an incoming blizzard, as, even with a +0 modifier on everyone in the group, odds are SOMEONE's gonna beat DC15.

[Falontani]

Endure elements handles severe cold like a champ, a level 1 spell, keep that in mind. With frostburn, and the introduction of a cold band beyond severe cold, unearthly cold, you can get around with just endure elementals and some furs...

That being said, even without endure elements, an improvised shelter gives you the same protection vs the cold as endure elements does, so even an inexperienced group could bunker down, put on some warm clothes, and just aim to wait out the blizzard. Also keep in mind that it's a mere DC15 survival check to predict the weather 24 hours in advance, so most groups shouldn't be caught completely off guard by an incoming blizzard, as, even with a +0 modifier on everyone in the group, odds are SOMEONE's gonna beat DC15.

Isn't weather prediction a specific action that people can take, or does everyone with view of the sky just kind of roll that unconsciously?

[Zaq]

Isn't weather prediction a specific action that people can take, or does everyone with view of the sky just kind of roll that unconsciously?

Yeah, it's a Survival check. DC 15 to accurately predict the weather 24 hours in advance, plus one day for every 5 points by which you beat 15.

I got nothing on the devil dunes, though. I don't think it was necessarily an intent for them to say "no CR = no challenge and therefore no XP." But you're right that by RAW you've got nothing beyond ad-hoc.

Of course, the fact that it takes high-level magic to "beat" it fully makes it seem like it's supposed to be a "low-level adventurers better not go out into the waste" plot wall rather than an actual challenge to overcome, but that's just an interpretation and not the only way to read things...

[Doctor Despair]

Well, if a CR-appropriate encounter is supposed to take 25% of your daily resources to navigate, and Endure Elements is a first level spell, I suppose you could treat inclement weather as an encounter based on that ratio. A typical party has four members, so that means four castings of a first level spell.

Wizards, clerics, and druids start with 1 level 1 spell slot, but sorcerers have 3, not accounting for ACFs and specialties and whatnot. If we toss each of these folks a bonus spell slot for their attribute, that's 2 and 4 respectively. If a party has some combination of two prepared casters or one spontaneous caster, they could navigate the encounter at level 1, but that would use all of their level 1 spells. The other two or three party members aren't doing anything, so we should account for that, too. If the sorcerer uses all their spell slots to solve the encounter, that would technically be CR1, right? Likewise, if the prepared casters used 50% each of their level 1 spells, that would be CR1. However, that would consume all the prepared caster's spell slots, so the math doesn't work out unless they have a sorcerer specifically (and one who took Endure Elements at that!)

At level 2, prepared casters have 3 level 1 spells (accounting for attributes). While there will be different party compositions, again, assuming they can muster up two prepared casters, that's 66% of their level 1 spells accounted for, but leaves level 0s untouched, as well. That's arguably 50% of the prepared caster's resources for the day, and that should be 25% of the party's total resources.

Based on that, a storm that requires Endure Elements to survive would probably be CR2 then, right?

[noob]

Well, if a CR-appropriate encounter is supposed to take 25% of your daily resources to navigate, and Endure Elements is a first level spell, I suppose you could treat inclement weather as an encounter based on that ratio. A typical party has four members, so that means four castings of a first level spell.

Wizards, clerics, and druids start with 1 level 1 spell slot, but sorcerers have 3, not accounting for ACFs and specialties and whatnot. If we toss each of these folks a bonus spell slot for their attribute, that's 2 and 4 respectively. If a party has some combination of two prepared casters or one spontaneous caster, they could navigate the encounter at level 1, but that would use all of their level 1 spells. The other two or three party members aren't doing anything, so we should account for that, too. If the sorcerer uses all their spell slots to solve the encounter, that would technically be CR1, right? Likewise, if the prepared casters used 50% each of their level 1 spells, that would be CR1. However, that would consume all the prepared caster's spell slots, so the math doesn't work out unless they have a sorcerer specifically (and one who took Endure Elements at that!)

At level 2, prepared casters have 3 level 1 spells (accounting for attributes). While there will be different party compositions, again, assuming they can muster up two prepared casters, that's 66% of their level 1 spells accounted for, but leaves level 0s untouched, as well. That's arguably 50% of the prepared caster's resources for the day, and that should be 25% of the party's total resources.

Based on that, a storm that requires Endure Elements to survive would probably be CR2 then, right?

Failure is not necessarily death.
For example if you lost two days navigating the storm and did reach the goblin village you needed to save a day too late it means you failed the storm encounter.

[Fouredged Sword]

Weather on it's own as a challenge is best treated as a skill check encounter and has it's DC's determine it's CR accordingly.

But for the most part even really bad weather is going to end up CR 1 or so by itself and even then only in really nasty forms. A CR 1 encounter being rendered moot by 4 level 1 spells is perfectly in line with expectations. Magic missile x4 solves almost any CR 1 combat encounter.

[noob]

Weather on it's own as a challenge is best treated as a skill check encounter and has it's DC's determine it's CR accordingly.

But for the most part even really bad weather is going to end up CR 1 or so by itself and even then only in really nasty forms. A CR 1 encounter being rendered moot by 4 level 1 spells is perfectly in line with expectations. Magic missile x4 solves almost any CR 1 combat encounter.

In the time limit case you need both to survive and to find your way out in time.
Finding your way out in time can need extra checks over just guaranteeing you survive.(or using a compass and knowing the exact position of your destination)

[Doctor Despair]

Weather on it's own as a challenge is best treated as a skill check encounter and has it's DC's determine it's CR accordingly.

But for the most part even really bad weather is going to end up CR 1 or so by itself and even then only in really nasty forms. A CR 1 encounter being rendered moot by 4 level 1 spells is perfectly in line with expectations. Magic missile x4 solves almost any CR 1 combat encounter.

Wouldn't an encounter that requires four level 1 spells be CR2 though, even without the skill check requirements, or time constraints?

[awa]

Environmental conditions that can simply be solved with endure elements should typically not have a CR in my opinion.
endure elements completely negates it for 24 hours with no rolls. A magic missile doesn't kill every orc you meet for the rest of the day.

Even without it, if there is no other threat or time limit you can typically just hunker down in your tent to wait it out without any resources spent.

I personally feel that it should only be worth Xp if it has other factors involved like a time limit or monsters in which case it has some value. But if they just bump into a storm and then take a nap to wait it out or recover from the damage that should not be worth anything.

In the grand scheme of things for environment hazards the dm should look at the situation and simply give ad hoc xp based on the nature of the situation and the associated factors. Your the Dm, CR is a guideline to help you prepare encounters and not a straight jacket. In particular something like this which can be either trivial or deadly depending on the situation is a lousy fit for CR (and a lot of monsters are no better).

The storm could delay the part but so could a failed survival check to increase the parties speed in the wilderness but we wouldn't consider that worth xp and its really not so different.

[noob]

Environmental conditions that can simply be solved with endure elements should typically not have a CR in my opinion.
endure elements completely negates it for 24 hours with no rolls. A magic missile doesn't kill every orc you meet for the rest of the day.

Even without it, if there is no other threat or time limit you can typically just hunker down in your tent to wait it out without any resources spent.

I personally feel that it should only be worth Xp if it has other factors involved like a time limit or monsters in which case it has some value. But if they just bump into a storm and then take a nap to wait it out or recover from the damage that should not be worth anything.

In the grand scheme of things for environment hazards the dm should look at the situation and simply give ad hoc xp based on the nature of the situation and the associated factors. Your the Dm, CR is a guideline to help you prepare encounters and not a straight jacket. In particular something like this which can be either trivial or deadly depending on the situation is a lousy fit for CR (and a lot of monsters are no better).

The storm could delay the part but so could a failed survival check to increase the parties speed in the wilderness but we wouldn't consider that worth xp and its really not so different.

I think a survival check that is needed to meet deadlines should count as an encounter.
If you could have just taken a road and not made any survival check and met the deadlines then there was no skill check encounter.

[Fouredged Sword]

Wouldn't an encounter that requires four level 1 spells be CR2 though, even without the skill check requirements, or time constraints?

A CR 1 encounter is supposed to take 25% of the player's resources for the day for a CR 1 party. With bonus spells, 4 level 1 spells is about what a level 1 wizard will have. For a 4 person party tapping out one of the party members is 25% of their resources. Well, more like 3, but the cleric or druid may also have a spell and the other characters have means of dealing with weather in more mundane manners. And the wizard will have SOME ability to contribute beyond their 1st level spells if nothing more than their cantrips and crossbow, still useful features at level 1.

I could see an argument for especially bad weather in already extreme climates being CR 2 or even 3, but those would be extreme circumstances.

[PraxisVetli]

What if you took away Endure Elements? That seems like the default solution to anything weather based, so if we drop that, and you need to buy fur coats and bring shelter with you, obviously that changes things, but how much?
This seems like one of those Protection from Arrows moments where a single low level spell solves an entire aspect of the game. At least three books dedicated to environments and weather, and a 1st level spell wins. Classic.
So let's ditch the spell. Now how much does it matter?
In an arid, high altitude location with high wind (at least Strong, and Blizzards clock in at Windstorm strength winds, according to pg94 of the DMG), nighttime brings an effective 9th band. This guesstimates to about -170° F, or -112°C. This is certainly extreme, past any Earth precedence. To counter, PC's would need Cold Resistance >5, Armour Insulation/ Cold Weather Outfit and Fur Clothing, and an Improvised Shelter. This brings them down to Cold, so Fort save 15+1/previous, vs 1d6 nonlethal cold, which their Cold Resistance 5 should cover pretty reliably. Until, however, someone eventually takes 6 damage, and the 1 remaining point triggers Frostbite, and then Hypothermia. Just to milk the example for all it's worth, let's assume they fail the 7th save of the evening, and their 8th hour of rest is now a:
Base DC 22
Cold Outfit, +5
Fur Clothing, +5
Fatigued, -2
So figurative DC 14. When can you expect a player to reliably make a DC 19? Con might provide a +2, so the remaining +2 can be provided by 1st level.
I uh.. I guess it still doesn't really matter, does it? Looks like I shouldn't blame Endure Elements, all it did was streamline the process, especially because this roll that a 1st level character could reasonably make is only going to occur under the most brutal circumstances possible, with the sole exception of the Cold Resistance 5.

So what does it all mean? Can I just dump Blizzard after Hurricane after Sandstorm over and over, and expect them to be fine? So it would seem, at least by the numbers, and assuming they thought ahead and bought the proper gear, and can remember to check the skies every morning.
Sorry to be the guy that makes a thread and then proves to himself he's wrong. My only defense is, as I said, I've never seen weather really utilized, so I never thought about it. I suppose now I see why, it's got all sorts of minuses and penalties and rules, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter too much. Wild.






Sorry I abandoned thread, it wasn't intentional. Real life got real hectic real fast.

[noob]

What if you took away Endure Elements? That seems like the default solution to anything weather based, so if we drop that, and you need to buy fur coats and bring shelter with you, obviously that changes things, but how much?
This seems like one of those Protection from Arrows moments where a single low level spell solves an entire aspect of the game. At least three books dedicated to environments and weather, and a 1st level spell wins. Classic.
So let's ditch the spell. Now how much does it matter?
In an arid, high altitude location with high wind (at least Strong, and Blizzards clock in at Windstorm strength winds, according to pg94 of the DMG), nighttime brings an effective 9th band. This guesstimates to about -170° F, or -112°C. This is certainly extreme, past any Earth precedence. To counter, PC's would need Cold Resistance >5, Armour Insulation/ Cold Weather Outfit and Fur Clothing, and an Improvised Shelter. This brings them down to Cold, so Fort save 15+1/previous, vs 1d6 nonlethal cold, which their Cold Resistance 5 should cover pretty reliably. Until, however, someone eventually takes 6 damage, and the 1 remaining point triggers Frostbite, and then Hypothermia. Just to milk the example for all it's worth, let's assume they fail the 7th save of the evening, and their 8th hour of rest is now a:
Base DC 22
Cold Outfit, +5
Fur Clothing, +5
Fatigued, -2
So figurative DC 14. When can you expect a player to reliably make a DC 19? Con might provide a +2, so the remaining +2 can be provided by 1st level.
I uh.. I guess it still doesn't really matter, does it? Looks like I shouldn't blame Endure Elements, all it did was streamline the process, especially because this roll that a 1st level character could reasonably make is only going to occur under the most brutal circumstances possible, with the sole exception of the Cold Resistance 5.

So what does it all mean? Can I just dump Blizzard after Hurricane after Sandstorm over and over, and expect them to be fine? So it would seem, at least by the numbers, and assuming they thought ahead and bought the proper gear, and can remember to check the skies every morning.
Sorry to be the guy that makes a thread and then proves to himself he's wrong. My only defense is, as I said, I've never seen weather really utilized, so I never thought about it. I suppose now I see why, it's got all sorts of minuses and penalties and rules, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter too much. Wild.






Sorry I abandoned thread, it wasn't intentional. Real life got real hectic real fast.

In some cases sitting a whole day is defeat because it was too much time lost.

[SirNibbles]

What if you took away Endure Elements? That seems like the default solution to anything weather based, so if we drop that, and you need to buy fur coats and bring shelter with you, obviously that changes things, but how much?
This seems like one of those Protection from Arrows moments where a single low level spell solves an entire aspect of the game. At least three books dedicated to environments and weather, and a 1st level spell wins. Classic.
So let's ditch the spell. Now how much does it matter?
In an arid, high altitude location with high wind (at least Strong, and Blizzards clock in at Windstorm strength winds, according to pg94 of the DMG), nighttime brings an effective 9th band. This guesstimates to about -170° F, or -112°C. This is certainly extreme, past any Earth precedence. To counter, PC's would need Cold Resistance >5, Armour Insulation/ Cold Weather Outfit and Fur Clothing, and an Improvised Shelter. This brings them down to Cold, so Fort save 15+1/previous, vs 1d6 nonlethal cold, which their Cold Resistance 5 should cover pretty reliably. Until, however, someone eventually takes 6 damage, and the 1 remaining point triggers Frostbite, and then Hypothermia. Just to milk the example for all it's worth, let's assume they fail the 7th save of the evening, and their 8th hour of rest is now a:
Base DC 22
Cold Outfit, +5
Fur Clothing, +5
Fatigued, -2
So figurative DC 14. When can you expect a player to reliably make a DC 19? Con might provide a +2, so the remaining +2 can be provided by 1st level.
I uh.. I guess it still doesn't really matter, does it? Looks like I shouldn't blame Endure Elements, all it did was streamline the process, especially because this roll that a 1st level character could reasonably make is only going to occur under the most brutal circumstances possible, with the sole exception of the Cold Resistance 5.

So what does it all mean? Can I just dump Blizzard after Hurricane after Sandstorm over and over, and expect them to be fine? So it would seem, at least by the numbers, and assuming they thought ahead and bought the proper gear, and can remember to check the skies every morning.
Sorry to be the guy that makes a thread and then proves to himself he's wrong. My only defense is, as I said, I've never seen weather really utilized, so I never thought about it. I suppose now I see why, it's got all sorts of minuses and penalties and rules, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter too much. Wild.

A few points:
1. Cost of being prepared: Armor Insulation costs 50 gp for 24 hours. That's a not-insignificant expenditure at level 1. A Cold Weather Outfit (Player's Handbook, page 129) is only 8 gp so it's not so bad. Furs are a further 8 gp and -2 ACP if you wear armor. It's not a big cost but it's not nothing either. Carrying all that extra weight also adds up.

The fact that your players are prepared for the weather doesn't mean it wasn't a challenge any more than preparing for a dungeon with spells and armor means that dungeon wasn't a challenge, especially if they ended up expending resources, whether gold or spells, which could have helped them elsewhere.

2. Time delay caused by a weather event vs the risk of travelling through it: in addition to not accomplishing whatever mission you were going to do on time, you also expend resources. Food and water are essentially unlimited at higher levels but at low levels, being delayed a day or two while travelling through inhospitable zones can result in the beginning of starvation.

3. Wet clothing- does it still work?

I also think it's an oversight that your soaking wet cold weather gear will still function for keeping you warm. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-and-Wet-(3-5)

[PraxisVetli]

In some cases sitting a whole day is defeat because it was too much time lost.

This is true, and worth noting, especially when the blizzard might be 3 days- that's a lot of lost travel.

A few points:
1. Cost of being prepared: Armor Insulation costs 50 gp for 24 hours. That's a not-insignificant expenditure at level 1. A Cold Weather Outfit (Player's Handbook, page 129) is only 8 gp so it's not so bad. Furs are a further 8 gp and -2 ACP if you wear armor. It's not a big cost but it's not nothing either. Carrying all that extra weight also adds up.

The fact that your players are prepared for the weather doesn't mean it wasn't a challenge any more than preparing for a dungeon with spells and armor means that dungeon wasn't a challenge, especially if they ended up expending resources, whether gold or spells, which could have helped them elsewhere.

2. Time delay caused by a weather event vs the risk of travelling through it: in addition to not accomplishing whatever mission you were going to do on time, you also expend resources. Food and water are essentially unlimited at higher levels but at low levels, being delayed a day or two while travelling through inhospitable zones can result in the beginning of starvation.

3. Wet clothing- does it still work?

I also think it's an oversight that your soaking wet cold weather gear will still function for keeping you warm. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-and-Wet-(3-5)

This particular campaign is Zero Magic™, hence my concern with Endure Elements. This also plays into your first two points, because it's also devoid of domesticable creatures. This makes carry weight and food pretty crucial factors.
Wet clothes provide a +2 to the DC of healing Hypothermia, not much, but it's something I guess. I'd also argue that it counts as still being cold, so an additional +3 towards treating Frostbite. A fair houserule might argue that the wet clothes provide the +2/+3, so potentially +5, to the DC vs Hypothermia and Frostbite.



Mildly off topic: can potions freeze? I would think the fact that they're magic liquid would say no, but Black Dragons use Corrupt Water on potions, so... Admittedly, that's magic too, and as Uncle say, Magic must defeat Magic!

[noob]

Maybe potions can freeze but potions are often liquids with exotic stuff mixed in so their freezing temperature would be lower than the one of water so if you keep your potions within your clothes it would probably protect them.

[PraxisVetli]

Maybe potions can freeze but potions are often liquids with exotic stuff mixed in so their freezing temperature would be lower than the one of water so if you keep your potions within your clothes it would probably protect them.

You think it's crazy to say that if the player is exposed to Severe Cold, 0 to -20°F, then it could freeze?

[noob]

You think it's crazy to say that if the player is exposed to Severe Cold, 0 to -20°F, then it could freeze?

Let us assume healing potions are alcohol.(you drink it and are fight ready again)
What is the freezing temperature of alcohol?
-20f can freeze alcohol that is at 80% so I can see -20 freezing most potions but since body temperature going below a given value is instantly lethal if you have enough frost protection to not suffer from instant cold death it means your body is above that temperature(but few people put the potions within their bodies so they will be at a lower temperature and could still freeze) or that you follow the hp is meat points philosophy.
Of course healing potions made in area where cold is uncommon might be less frost resistant.
If you wanted to do it the D20 way potions would do a fortitude save.

If however the healing potion is 98% alcohol it would probably while resist most cold weathers while being carried close to your body but reaching such high alcohol content is hard if not impossible with old methods.
It can be argued that as magic potions are magical they would get the magical item benefit of being supernaturally resilient(like how armour and weapons that are magical are tougher)

[PraxisVetli]

Let us assume healing potions are alcohol.(you drink it and are fight ready again)
What is the freezing temperature of alcohol?
-20f can freeze alcohol that is at 80% so I can see -20 freezing most potions but since body temperature going below a given value is instantly lethal if you have enough frost protection to not suffer from instant cold death it means your body is above that temperature(but few people put the potions within their bodies so they will be at a lower temperature and could still freeze) or that you follow the hp is meat points philosophy.
Of course healing potions made in area where cold is uncommon might be less frost resistant.
If you wanted to do it the D20 way potions would do a fortitude save.

If however the healing potion is 98% alcohol it would probably while resist most cold weathers while being carried close to your body but reaching such high alcohol content is hard if not impossible with old methods.
It can be argued that as magic potions are magical they would get the magical item benefit of being supernaturally resilient(like how armour and weapons that are magical are tougher)

Do we have any reason to assume the alcohol content?
I think I might have them roll the fort save, but that might be one of those times where I roll behind the scenes, and if anyone does anything that might warrant them realize it, I'll let them roll to notice.

[noob]

Do we have any reason to assume the alcohol content?
I think I might have them roll the fort save, but that might be one of those times where I roll behind the scenes, and if anyone does anything that might warrant them realize it, I'll let them roll to notice.

You can make magical items with any material provided you reach the right cost.
Alcohol is drinkable and frost resistant and expensive when highly distilled so it stands as a potential material for potions especially since it could possibly cover the bad taste of other worse tasting things in the potion.
Some other alternative liquids would probably be water with a lot of sugar to hide the taste of other ingredients and possibly oil(a fancy oil because it is needed to make an expensive potion).

Potions mass produced by an artificer that does enough cost reduction shenanigans would probably be just water if the cost gets to the cost of the glass containing the liquid.(that is what you get for buying the cheap potions) so artificers skilled enough would probably never use alcohol on basic potions and this mean that most level 1 potions do not have alcohol in a setting allowing artificers that optimise potion cost because artificers that specialises in potion production have insane outputs.

What makes alcohol stands out is the low odds of spoiling due to alcohol killing varied organisms that could live in the potion unlike water with sugar or oil that would have high risks of spoiling if the seal is compromised.
(by raw there is potions that can spoil and become poisons: see the cursed items in DMG)

Also if you were to sell a potion that you looted and that it was not alcohol based people would worry it was spoiled so alcohol based potions are probably circulating more and thus more often seen.
(note that some potions will never use alcohol like the potion of cure alcoholism)

Personally if you were crafting an healing potion which liquid would you use?

[PraxisVetli]

You can make magical items with any material provided you reach the right cost.
Alcohol is drinkable and frost resistant and expensive when highly distilled so it stands as a potential material for potions especially since it could possibly cover the bad taste of other worse tasting things in the potion.
Some other alternative liquids would probably be water with a lot of sugar to hide the taste of other ingredients and possibly oil(a fancy oil because it is needed to make an expensive potion).

Potions mass produced by an artificer that does enough cost reduction shenanigans would probably be just water if the cost gets to the cost of the glass containing the liquid.(that is what you get for buying the cheap potions) so artificers skilled enough would probably never use alcohol on basic potions and this mean that most level 1 potions do not have alcohol in a setting allowing artificers that optimise potion cost because artificers that specialises in potion production have insane outputs.

What makes alcohol stands out is the low odds of spoiling due to alcohol killing varied organisms that could live in the potion unlike water with sugar or oil that would have high risks of spoiling if the seal is compromised.
(by raw there is potions that can spoil and become poisons: see the cursed items in DMG)

Also if you were to sell a potion that you looted and that it was not alcohol based people would worry it was spoiled so alcohol based potions are probably circulating more and thus more often seen.
(note that some potions will never use alcohol like the potion of cure alcoholism)

Personally if you were crafting an healing potion which liquid would you use?

I always just kind of assumed it was newt blood or something.

[noob]

I always just kind of assumed it was newt blood or something.

You can use newt blood or something if you are going to use it fast which is normal for a party that have tough characters.
You might want gentle repose if you do not plan to use the potions fast.
Or have a gm saying that the magical radiation kills stuff in the potion or something like that.

[SirNibbles]

This is true, and worth noting, especially when the blizzard might be 3 days- that's a lot of lost travel.

This particular campaign is Zero Magic™, hence my concern with Endure Elements. This also plays into your first two points, because it's also devoid of domesticable creatures. This makes carry weight and food pretty crucial factors.
Wet clothes provide a +2 to the DC of healing Hypothermia, not much, but it's something I guess. I'd also argue that it counts as still being cold, so an additional +3 towards treating Frostbite. A fair houserule might argue that the wet clothes provide the +2/+3, so potentially +5, to the DC vs Hypothermia and Frostbite.



Mildly off topic: can potions freeze? I would think the fact that they're magic liquid would say no, but Black Dragons use Corrupt Water on potions, so... Admittedly, that's magic too, and as Uncle say, Magic must defeat Magic!

In addition to the -2 for hypothermia for wet clothes and the -10 to all cold-related effects for clothes which have been fully immersed in cold water, there's this little piece from the Winter's Heart Glacier web module:

The water also soaks the character's footgear, and a character with wet feet takes a -4 penalty on all checks and saves to resist the effects of environmental cold, such as the hourly save a character must make to avoid the effects of cold or severe cold on the glacier.
Vicious Venues: Winter's Heart Glacier (Web Module): Ice Caves

___

I can't find anything that says potions freeze (or evaporate) at certain temperatures.

[PraxisVetli]

You can use newt blood or something if you are going to use it fast which is normal for a party that have tough characters.
You might want gentle repose if you do not plan to use the potions fast.
Or have a gm saying that the magical radiation kills stuff in the potion or something like that.

For me personally,that's more science than I want in my magic.

Winter's Heart Glacier web module:

The water also soaks the character's footgear, and a character with wet feet takes a -4 penalty on all checks and saves to resist the effects of environmental cold, such as the hourly save a character must make to avoid the effects of cold or severe cold on the glacier.
Vicious Venues: Winter's Heart Glacier (Web Module): Ice Caves

___

I can't find anything that says potions freeze (or evaporate) at certain temperatures.

Nice! That's an untyped penalty, brutal!