Weather CR0?

[Quentinas]

From Frostburn there is this phrase in the Delzomer forge module

This compartment is magic, similar in effect to the power of a cube of frost resistance, in that the inside of the 1-foot square compartment remains at a constant tem-perature of 65° F. Delzomen created this magic compartment when he realized he needed somewhere to store potions of healing for emergencies where the potions wouldn’t freeze solid. Four potions of cure moderate wounds, a potion of remove disease, and a potion of cure serious wounds sit in the compart-ment, each neatly labeled

So the potions can freeze if under a certain temperature it seems, in this case in rooms with blue ice plating that means 20° F so at least at that temperature the potions freeze, probably something more, but at 65 F the potions will not freeze

[SirNibbles]

From Frostburn there is this phrase in the Delzomer forge module


So the potions can freeze if under a certain temperature it seems, in this case in rooms with blue ice plating that means 20° F so at least at that temperature the potions freeze, probably something more, but at 65 F the potions will not freeze

Well, looks like we both failed somehow to find this obvious ruling:

Any liquid exposed to freezing temperatures freezes after 1 hour of continued exposure. Frozen liquid must be thawed before it can be used; one serving of frozen liquid can be thawed by a single torch’s flame in 10 minutes. The thaw spell can do the same in the matter of an instant. Water freezes at 32° F, but most potions are made of hardier stuff and freeze at temperatures of 20° F or lower. Oils are even more difficult to freeze, and only do so at temperatures of –20° F or lower. A frozen potion’s or oil’s magical qualities are unharmed by freezing, although the liquid must be thawed before it can be used.
Frostburn, page 79

This is in line with the idea that a room kept at a constant 20 degrees would be too cold for potions and the compartment would be necessary.

__

Here's the one for hot weather:

Burning Heat: At some point, increasing temperatures push past even unearthly heat and graduate to actual burning—when material objects catch fire spontaneously due to the heat. For instance, paper catches fire at 451º F (and dried-out skin catches fire at around the same temperature). Characters carrying fuel for their lamps or other combustibles discover that it catches fire at around 260º F. Water boils at approximately 212º F (depending on barometric pressure), and many potions or elixirs could quickly boil away to nothing somewhere near that temperature range.
Sandstorm, page 13

I don't know if the intent is for a sealed potion to turn to steam and destroy its container, or if it simply squeezes out of its container, or if it just evaporates when you try to open the potion to drink it.

[PraxisVetli]

From Frostburn there is this phrase in the Delzomer forge module


So the potions can freeze if under a certain temperature it seems, in this case in rooms with blue ice plating that means 20° F so at least at that temperature the potions freeze, probably something more, but at 65 F the potions will not freeze

Well, looks like we both failed somehow to find this obvious ruling:

Any liquid exposed to freezing temperatures freezes after 1 hour of continued exposure. Frozen liquid must be thawed before it can be used; one serving of frozen liquid can be thawed by a single torch’s flame in 10 minutes. The thaw spell can do the same in the matter of an instant. Water freezes at 32° F, but most potions are made of hardier stuff and freeze at temperatures of 20° F or lower. Oils are even more difficult to freeze, and only do so at temperatures of –20° F or lower. A frozen potion’s or oil’s magical qualities are unharmed by freezing, although the liquid must be thawed before it can be used.
Frostburn, page 79

This is in line with the idea that a room kept at a constant 20 degrees would be too cold for potions and the compartment would be necessary.

__

Here's the one for hot weather:

Burning Heat: At some point, increasing temperatures push past even unearthly heat and graduate to actual burning—when material objects catch fire spontaneously due to the heat. For instance, paper catches fire at 451º F (and dried-out skin catches fire at around the same temperature). Characters carrying fuel for their lamps or other combustibles discover that it catches fire at around 260º F. Water boils at approximately 212º F (depending on barometric pressure), and many potions or elixirs could quickly boil away to nothing somewhere near that temperature range.
Sandstorm, page 13

I don't know if the intent is for a sealed potion to turn to steam and destroy its container, or if it simply squeezes out of its container, or if it just evaporates when you try to open the potion to drink it.

My players hate you, but I thank you!
I wonder if any of them will think of these things before they're way out in the wastelands and it's far too late.

[SirNibbles]

My players hate you, but I thank you!
I wonder if any of them will think of these things before they're way out in the wastelands and it's far too late.

One hour of continued exposure isn't a well-defined term. If you keep your potions under your cloak, are they still exposed? How much do they benefit from your body heat? Would they freeze more slowly or not at all? Additionally, potions stored in something like a Bag of Holding should be perfectly fine since they're in a different dimension.

Also, before springing this on your players, I'd give them the hint of brushing up on the rules for environments. For your own benefit, have notes for the rules you expect to use written down- it comes in handy when you're using rules that don't come up as often.

[awa]

I definitely agree in fact I would go farther and simply tell them potions can freeze. D&d ignores so many aspects of physics that when you do decide that one matters you should simply tell them rather than doing a gotcha. At worst a low dc survival check should let them know.

[noob]

I definitely agree in fact I would go farther and simply tell them potions can freeze. D&d ignores so many aspects of physics that when you do decide that one matters you should simply tell them rather than doing a gotcha. At worst a low dc survival check should let them know.

I did agree potions could freeze.
However due to their nature as magic items I did think it could have been based on the item making fort saves since magical items have a fortitude, a will and reflexes.(which is seriously odd)
Or it could have been based on what went in the potion.
Apparently you could make a magical potion out of nitrogen and it would still freeze at 20F.(I have no clue how but it is probably the easiest way to get solid nitrogen: first get liquid nitrogen then make a potion with it then one hour later you have solid nitrogen)

[awa]

I did agree potions could freeze.
However due to their nature as magic items I did think it could have been based on the item making fort saves since magical items have a fortitude, a will and reflexes.(which is seriously odd)
Or it could have been based on what went in the potion.
Apparently you could make a magical potion out of nitrogen and it would still freeze at 20F.(I have no clue how but it is probably the easiest way to get solid nitrogen: first get liquid nitrogen then make a potion with it then one hour later you have solid nitrogen)

I'm simply saying that, if potions freezing is a thing that can happen it should not be dropped on them unexpectedly it should be mentioned directly as soon as it would be plausibly relevant.

[liquidformat]

I always just kind of assumed it was newt blood or something.

I have always went with troll blood for healing potions that has been watered down to different concentrations based which healing potion. I have always liked the idea of potions being made with monster parts.

[PraxisVetli]

I'm simply saying that, if potions freezing is a thing that can happen it should not be dropped on them unexpectedly it should be mentioned directly as soon as it would be plausibly relevant.

I'll give them a check before they're more than a day out, so they can still turn back and find a solution. And I don't see why the potions can't be thawed and used, I'm not going to make them throw out any. They'll get a survival check to notice, assuming they don't naturally think of it themselves. I might be [EVIL], but I'm not a monster.

I have always went with troll blood for healing potions that has been watered down to different concentrations based which healing potion. I have always liked the idea of potions being made with monster parts.

Troll makes sense, sure.

[noob]

I have always went with troll blood for healing potions that has been watered down to different concentrations based which healing potion. I have always liked the idea of potions being made with monster parts.

Troll blood is too cheap once you have a captured troll so you need other things in the potion to be expensive after you captured a troll (before it is fine because without capturing a troll getting troll blood is hard).
It would also make buying healing potions potentially be evil: by buying healing potions you encourage capturing trolls and torturing them by draining their blood all day long.

[liquidformat]

I'll give them a check before they're more than a day out, so they can still turn back and find a solution. And I don't see why the potions can't be thawed and used, I'm not going to make them throw out any. They'll get a survival check to notice, assuming they don't naturally think of it themselves. I might be [EVIL], but I'm not a monster.

Well the above quoted passage from Frostburn does expressly give permission for the potion to be thawed out and used. The only issue I see is if the potion is water based and there isn't adequate room for expansion inside the vial.

Even then that seems more like just a mean gotcha for the sake of being a gotcha. The fact that a potion just left in your sack would freeze if you haven't expressly done any work to insulate said back already seems like enough of a punishment without straight ruining the potion.

On the other hand I think that it is perfectly reasonable that extreme heat does in fact ruin the potion and the rule seems to agree with that.

Troll blood is too cheap once you have a captured troll so you need other things in the potion to be expensive after you captured a troll (before it is fine because without capturing a troll getting troll blood is hard).
It would also make buying healing potions potentially be evil: by buying healing potions you encourage capturing trolls and torturing them by draining their blood all day long.

I mean if using parts of a sapient dragon isn't considered evil I see no reason to start pointing hate at troll blood tonics! Who are you to judge the poor troll reduced to selling his own blood to support his family because he is too stupid to become a caster in magic dominated society!

[PraxisVetli]

Well the above quoted passage from Frostburn does expressly give permission for the potion to be thawed out and used. The only issue I see is if the potion is water based and there isn't adequate room for expansion inside the vial.

Even then that seems more like just a mean gotcha for the sake of being a gotcha. The fact that a potion just left in your sack would freeze if you haven't expressly done any work to insulate said back already seems like enough of a punishment without straight ruining the potion.

On the other hand I think that it is perfectly reasonable that extreme heat does in fact ruin the potion and the rule seems to agree with that.



I mean if using parts of a sapient dragon isn't considered evil I see no reason to start pointing hate at troll blood tonics! Who are you to judge the poor troll reduced to selling his own blood to support his family because he is too stupid to become a caster in magic dominated society!

No, I like punishing the players for not thinking ahead, but the lack of potion is sufficient. To say the potion is destroyed, rather than unavailable, seems like plenty.

[noob]

I mean if using parts of a sapient dragon isn't considered evil I see no reason to start pointing hate at troll blood tonics! Who are you to judge the poor troll reduced to selling his own blood to support his family because he is too stupid to become a caster in magic dominated society!

I said potentially evil I did not say it was guaranteed to be evil.
Also some people dislike the idea of wearing scales from a dead dragon (probably because if they could not protect the dragon who had them it means it would probably not protect you either)

[liquidformat]

AFB at the moment but does sandstorm or stormwrack talk about flash flooding, the DMG entry seems skip over flash flooding and only talk about spring flooding of rivers which is a completely different animal altogether.

[PraxisVetli]

AFB at the moment but does sandstorm or stormwrack talk about flash flooding, the DMG entry seems skip over flash flooding and only talk about spring flooding of rivers which is a completely different animal altogether.

A cursory flip-through says no, but the DMG does have avalanche rules, page 90, so you might be able to home-brew something. Less than ideal, I know, but what do you do, you know? I checked Dungeonscape too, just in case it covered if a dungeon floods, to no avail. Best guess is just tweak that avalanche rules, and add rules for swimming in super turbulent water, which looks like a DC 20, maybe make it a 25 just for that extra oomph, since it does say floods increase the swim category, so I'd personally consider making an extra category after Stormy Water.
Then fill it with Sahaguin Druids riding sharks!

[Quentinas]

Have you controlled stormwalk? Maybe there is something here about flood

[PraxisVetli]

Have you controlled stormwalk? Maybe there is something here about flood

I checked. There's rules for a flooding ship, but that's it.
Weird, right?

[noob]

stormwalk is about sailing so it does not contains as much content about non ship related things as much as it could.

[SirNibbles]

AFB at the moment but does sandstorm or stormwrack talk about flash flooding, the DMG entry seems skip over flash flooding and only talk about spring flooding of rivers which is a completely different animal altogether.

The next sentence does mention that a river can flood from strong rains, not just spring snowmelt. Flooding is likely less common than we think outside of such scenarios- in places where there aren't a lot of impervious surfaces from human development, flooding isn't as significant. Open fields don't flood just because of heavy rain. Yes, water may pool when the rainfall is so great that the soil becomes completely saturated, but it's rare for there to be anything further than getting your feet a bit wet.

Here's a short video on flooding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tlvu_ek7q0 which could help you out if you're trying to make your own flooding rules in addition to the river flood rules.

[liquidformat]

The next sentence does mention that a river can flood from strong rains, not just spring snowmelt. Flooding is likely less common than we think outside of such scenarios- in places where there aren't a lot of impervious surfaces from human development, flooding isn't as significant. Open fields don't flood just because of heavy rain. Yes, water may pool when the rainfall is so great that the soil becomes completely saturated, but it's rare for there to be anything further than getting your feet a bit wet.

Here's a short video on flooding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tlvu_ek7q0 which could help you out if you're trying to make your own flooding rules in addition to the river flood rules.

I know from growing up backpacking in the desert and mountains in western US that you can get some crazy floods out of nowhere. Especially in a desert area you can sometimes get floods from storms that didn't even hit your area but can be quite deadly. Also I did read through that flood passage, however, it caps at stormy weather which is a noticeable issue since things like whitewater in rivers would be more dangerous to swim in, also there is a large difference in levels of stormy between light storm and mega hurricane.

Anyways I have been slowly making a word doc with the intent to have a full compilation of every book's modifications for every skill but it has been going slow. Taking a quick look swimming a waterfall from the epic handbook it is a DC 80 swim check where as swimming a stormy body of water is only DC 20. It seems like a pretty large gap there that should include things like swimming in white water rapids.
Comparing this to whitewater rapids classification we have the following:

• Class A - Lake water. Still. No perceptible movement. (Calm water DC 10)
• Class I - Easy. Smooth water; light riffles; clear passages, occasional sand banks and gentle curves. The most difficult problems might arise when paddling around bridges and other obvious obstructions. classification (DC 10-15)
• Class II - Moderate. Medium-quick water; rapids with regular waves; clear and open passages between rocks and ledges. Maneuvering required. Best handled by intermediates who can maneuver canoes and read water. (Rough DC 15)
• Class III - Moderately difficult. Numerous high and irregular waves; rocks and eddies with passages clear but narrow and requiring experience to run. Visual inspection required if rapids are unknown. Open canoes without flotation bags will have difficulty. These rapids are best left to canoeists with expert skills. (equivalent to stormy water DC 20)
• Class IV - Difficult. Long and powerful rapids and standing waves; souse holes and boiling eddies. Powerful and precise maneuvering required. Visual inspection mandatory. Cannot be run in canoes unless the craft is decked or properly equipped with flotation bags. Advance preparations for possible rescue work important. (DC >20)
• Class V - Extremely difficult. Long and violent rapids that follow each other almost without interruption. River filled with obstructions. Big drops and violent currents. Extremely steep gradient. Even reconnoitering may be difficult. Rescue preparations mandatory. Can be run only by top experts in specially equipped whitewater canoes, decked craft, and kayaks. (DC >20)
• Class VI - Extraordinarily difficult. Paddlers face constant threat of death because of extreme danger. Navigable only when water levels and conditions are favorable. This violent whitewater should be left to paddlers of Olympic ability. Every safety precaution must be taken. (DC 80)

I think listing Class IV as 40 and V as 60 seems pretty reasonable, you are dealing with avoiding hazards in very fast moving water with things like undertow and debris...

[SirNibbles]

I know from growing up backpacking in the desert and mountains in western US that you can get some crazy floods out of nowhere. Especially in a desert area you can sometimes get floods from storms that didn't even hit your area but can be quite deadly. Also I did read through that flood passage, however, it caps at stormy weather which is a noticeable issue since things like whitewater in rivers would be more dangerous to swim in, also there is a large difference in levels of stormy between light storm and mega hurricane.

Anyways I have been slowly making a word doc with the intent to have a full compilation of every book's modifications for every skill but it has been going slow. Taking a quick look swimming a waterfall from the epic handbook it is a DC 80 swim check where as swimming a stormy body of water is only DC 20. It seems like a pretty large gap there that should include things like swimming in white water rapids.
Comparing this to whitewater rapids classification we have the following:

• Class A - Lake water. Still. No perceptible movement. (Calm water DC 10)
• Class I - Easy. Smooth water; light riffles; clear passages, occasional sand banks and gentle curves. The most difficult problems might arise when paddling around bridges and other obvious obstructions. classification (DC 10-15)
• Class II - Moderate. Medium-quick water; rapids with regular waves; clear and open passages between rocks and ledges. Maneuvering required. Best handled by intermediates who can maneuver canoes and read water. (Rough DC 15)
• Class III - Moderately difficult. Numerous high and irregular waves; rocks and eddies with passages clear but narrow and requiring experience to run. Visual inspection required if rapids are unknown. Open canoes without flotation bags will have difficulty. These rapids are best left to canoeists with expert skills. (equivalent to stormy water DC 20)
• Class IV - Difficult. Long and powerful rapids and standing waves; souse holes and boiling eddies. Powerful and precise maneuvering required. Visual inspection mandatory. Cannot be run in canoes unless the craft is decked or properly equipped with flotation bags. Advance preparations for possible rescue work important. (DC >20)
• Class V - Extremely difficult. Long and violent rapids that follow each other almost without interruption. River filled with obstructions. Big drops and violent currents. Extremely steep gradient. Even reconnoitering may be difficult. Rescue preparations mandatory. Can be run only by top experts in specially equipped whitewater canoes, decked craft, and kayaks. (DC >20)
• Class VI - Extraordinarily difficult. Paddlers face constant threat of death because of extreme danger. Navigable only when water levels and conditions are favorable. This violent whitewater should be left to paddlers of Olympic ability. Every safety precaution must be taken. (DC 80)

I think listing Class IV as 40 and V as 60 seems pretty reasonable, you are dealing with avoiding hazards in very fast moving water with things like undertow and debris...

Just one thing to point out: the DC 80 for waterfalls is to swim up a waterfall vertically, i.e. you start at the bottom of a waterfall and swim up through the falling water somehow. It's a superhuman feat that nobody in our world could come close to managing.

__

As for whether or not an area will flood as a result of a certain amount of rain, that's something I think the DM should research and have mapped out ahead of time if it's going to be a significant part of the campaign. Yes, deserts can flood, but that's largely a result of topography, not simply a tremendous amount of rain. Having areas designated as flooding to certain degrees under certain weather conditions isn't something the rules can really handle- it's part of the DM's world building effort. Of course, applying the river flooding rules is extremely useful to this end.

[PraxisVetli]

As for whether or not an area will flood as a result of a certain amount of rain, that's something I think the DM should research and have mapped out ahead of time if it's going to be a significant part of the campaign. Yes, deserts can flood, but that's largely a result of topography, not simply a tremendous amount of rain. Having areas designated as flooding to certain degrees under certain weather conditions isn't something the rules can really handle- it's part of the DM's world building effort. Of course, applying the river flooding rules is extremely useful to this end.

I have my weather table all rolled up, and if I get god-awful storms too often in a row, depending on terrain, I might do a flash-flood. It's hardly a common occurrence.
I'm also considering things like too many duststorms in a row altering the world enough that maps might be less than accurate, and how to handle survival checks to notice they're wrong.
I think I'll just run it of the basic lost rules, except give it a little extra time (a day?) to notice.

If I write up all the major weather types as a single post, akin to the earlier post with the blizzard, does that appeal to anyone? I find it useful because everything is 'as rain' 'as fog' 'as X wind' etc.
Having things compiled in one single shazam is way easier.


Do you guys even use weather much? Like I said, this is the first time I've seen it come up at all, and I'm the DM! Of my 4-5 other DM's I've played under, none have given it thought past whether it was sunny or not.

[liquidformat]

I think that would be cool. It has really depended on the dm/adventure. I have had some adventures where things like crazy rain has led to mudslides that have played a factor in the adventure arch or ones focused around being in a wintery place where blizzards and storms are an important factor, and then others that have never touched on it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

AFB at the moment but does sandstorm or stormwrack talk about flash flooding, the DMG entry seems skip over flash flooding and only talk about spring flooding of rivers which is a completely different animal altogether.

It's not a general weather rule but the description of the Flashflood spell (Sand) should at least give you a starting point.

[PraxisVetli]

I think that would be cool. It has really depended on the dm/adventure. I have had some adventures where things like crazy rain has led to mudslides that have played a factor in the adventure arch or ones focused around being in a wintery place where blizzards and storms are an important factor, and then others that have never touched on it.

It'll be slow uploading, I was in a piv incident at work (I'm mostly ok), and now extended keyboard use is really hard on me.

I might post some here, then once there's enough, start a weather handbook, see if other Playgroundians can dig up wonky stuff from dragmags and whatnot.
Could cover weather and then all the crazy things like that maneater dune. Seriously, what is up with that?

[smetzger]

I have my weather table all rolled up, and if I get god-awful storms too often in a row, depending on terrain, I might do a flash-flood. ....

Not sure if you are referring to a random weather table for determining weather.

Instead of a random weather table you could use historical weather...
https://www.wunderground.com/history

Pick a real location that matches the weather in your 'fantasy world' location. Then pick a year and calendar day.
This works better if you are using a similar calendar.

[liquidformat]

It'll be slow uploading, I was in a piv incident at work (I'm mostly ok), and now extended keyboard use is really hard on me.

I might post some here, then once there's enough, start a weather handbook, see if other Playgroundians can dig up wonky stuff from dragmags and whatnot.
Could cover weather and then all the crazy things like that maneater dune. Seriously, what is up with that?

Sorry to hear that you were injured hope you get better quickly. Anyways I have found creating a google doc and then just sharing the link to be rather useful for this sort of thing rather than trying to recreate it on different forums.

[PraxisVetli]

Sorry to hear that you were injured hope you get better quickly. Anyways I have found creating a google doc and then just sharing the link to be rather useful for this sort of thing rather than trying to recreate it on different forums.

Thanks, I'll heal mostly. Lost about 20-50° of movement in each axis of my left wrist.
Life goes on, right?

Anyway.
Google doc is sound advice, thanks!