Grim Hollow Transformations

[Alcore]

There is this book called Grim Hollow; the campaign guide by Ghostfire Games. In it at page 30 is 6 different monsters to transform into from liches to an angel. it's concept is quite nice; you are attacked by, perform ritual for, sell your soul... ect and save versus a DC. Fail and you begin along the path by gaining one boon and one flaw. Each monster is broken into 4 tiers with a total of 11 boons and 4 flaws per monster; only 4 each that is in use. Coming from rule heavy systems like 3.5 there is some missing wiring but the concept is fleshed out enough one shouldn't have trouble following through.


my questions are;

• 1. Has anyone ever used this in their games?
• 2. Any pitfalls you noticed?
• 3. Would you use it again in a game?
• 4. or is it more of a one off thing for a change of pace?

and despite not using it my thoughts have already turned to modification


My vampires are often of the 2004 "Van Helsing" variety than the kind found in our monster manuals. And Liches seem to eat souls. I don't know where that came from. Though I am not thinking of making any changes, yet, my main concern would be; do you think these will work as a feat chain that grants one more boon beyond normal?

[Amdy_vill]

There is this book called Grim Hollow; the campaign guide by Ghostfire Games. In it at page 30 is 6 different monsters to transform into from liches to an angel. it's concept is quite nice; you are attacked by, perform ritual for, sell your soul... ect and save versus a DC. Fail and you begin along the path by gaining one boon and one flaw. Each monster is broken into 4 tiers with a total of 11 boons and 4 flaws per monster; only 4 each that is in use. Coming from rule heavy systems like 3.5 there is some missing wiring but the concept is fleshed out enough one shouldn't have trouble following through.


my questions are;

• 1. Has anyone ever used this in their games?
• 2. Any pitfalls you noticed?
• 3. Would you use it again in a game?
• 4. or is it more of a one off thing for a change of pace?

and despite not using it my thoughts have already turned to modification


My vampires are often of the 2004 "Van Helsing" variety than the kind found in our monster manuals. And Liches seem to eat souls. I don't know where that came from. Though I am not thinking of making any changes, yet, my main concern would be; do you think these will work as a feat chain that grants one more boon beyond normal?

1. yes and I loved it

2. not really beside the fact you will be adding to a character. so all the problems normal to give a character more power. it wasn't that bad thou and the party didn't really care that our druid was slightly more powerful than the rest of the party. you should also read over the rules a few times to make sure you don't miss any of the requirements for the transformation. you don't want to give your level 3 the lich transformation ect.

3. yes, the whole grim hallow book has become part of my normal 3rd party book list. I love the bleeding condition. I would also suggest deep magic books for kobold press their just as good but focus on subclasses.

4.you can use it like that. but it's balanced pretty well. I do suggest if you are using it to inform you, players, upfront and allow them to pick out transformations they want to pursue in the game. you can also just give them out at the start and it should be fine. I personally give out the vampire transformation and the werewolf transformation to spore druids and order of lycanthropy blood hunters for free.

I would suggest not modifying it, it's rather balanced and I feel pushing it any father would make them broken, and raining it in would probably end up making it useless/unapelling.

[Alcore]

I would suggest not modifying it, it's rather balanced and I feel pushing it any father would make them broken, and raining it in would probably end up making it useless/unapelling.

I don't quite agree about balance. A lich (for instance) doesn't count as undead until it takes "undead form" and yet the phylactery is useless without "harvester of souls". Both of which are teir one boons with the flaw being a boon if you can snag souls by other means.

Meaning that you can have a not-undead lich.

[Amdy_vill]

I don't quite agree about balance. A lich (for instance) doesn't count as undead until it takes "undead form" and yet the phylactery is useless without "harvester of souls". Both of which are teir one boons with the flaw being a boon if you can snag souls by other means.

Meaning that you can have a not-undead lich.

how does being undead affect balance? there are very few abilities that directly call out undead and most are player abilities, an example being oathbreaker paladin. which would give a direct boost to the liches power. while it is anachronistic to have a not undead lich it does exist in lore and seems to be there for a mechanical purpose.

also, I am struggling to follow your argument

Ignore all of this you seem not to understand how this system works. you outright gain all tier 1 abilities your lich will always be undead if you are fallowing the transformation rules.

[Amdy_vill]

Though I am not thinking of making any changes, yet, my main concern would be; do you think these will work as a feat chain that grants one more boon beyond normal?

I think this is what you were talking about and yes if you make them a feat chain instead of the tier system you will massively change their power. some will become massively weaker and others will become very powerful.

at least I think that's what you're getting at.

[Chaosmancer]

I just recently backed their newest kickstarter and have the campaign guide coming at the same time. The transformations are something I'm curious about, but can people post a little more vague meat about how they work? I'm trying to decide if I want to get the campaign guide early or only pay shipping fees once.


Edit: Almost forgot. As for Liches eating souls, yes that is a thing. If you check the MM, you will see it mentioned that they sustain the magic of their phylactery by consuming the souls of other creatures. This is also how you get a Demilich. They forget to feed, or are cut off, and their undead body breaks down to just a skull.

Alhoons actually use a different method. If memory serves they consume the "potential life" of a creature. I can't remember if it was they get years equal to how long the child would have lived, or years equal to how long the adult did live, but it was an interesting version where they really prefer to target long-lived beings to extend the time between feedings.

[Amdy_vill]

but can people post a little more vague meat about how they work?

1. meet the mechanical requirements of the transformation. normally it's just 13 in x stat. some have level requirements like a lich.
2. meet the RP requirements. bitten by vampires, used a dark ritual, etc...
3. you gain all their 1 boons and flaws. normally like 2-4 boons and 1 flaw that interacts with the boons.
4. if you are leveling up your transformation
A. check your level tier 1(1-5) tier2(5-10) tier 3(11-15) tier 4(16-20)
B. complete one of the various level up requirements, dark rituals, ancient artifacts, etc...
C. pick one boon of the next tier and gain the next tier's flaw.
5. repeat step 4.

[Chaosmancer]

1. meet the mechanical requirements of the transformation. normally it's just 13 in x stat. some have level requirements like a lich.
2. meet the RP requirements. bitten by vampires, used a dark ritual, etc...
3. you gain all their 1 boons and flaws. normally like 2-4 boons and 1 flaw that interacts with the boons.
4. if you are leveling up your transformation
A. check your level tier 1(1-5) tier2(5-10) tier 3(11-15) tier 4(16-20)
B. complete one of the various level up requirements, dark rituals, ancient artifacts, etc...
C. pick one boon of the next tier and gain the next tier's flaw.
5. repeat step 4.

Hmm, okay, the system seems fairly understandable at least.

What happens if you are Level 10 when you get the transformation, do you get all of the Tier 2 stuff as well? Do you have to build it all up? Can you just skip straight to tier 3 boons?

[Amdy_vill]

Hmm, okay, the system seems fairly understandable at least.

What happens if you are Level 10 when you get the transformation, do you get all of the Tier 2 stuff as well? Do you have to build it all up? Can you just skip straight to tier 3 boons?

you start at tier 1 and must level. if you start at level 10 you can eminently begin looking for a way to level. no, you can just start with tier 3 boons,

[Sparky McDibben]

What I actually wish they had done a better job of was grounding the upgrade quests into the world. Like, where do you go for an "encounter with an Aberration, magical anomaly ..." in order to become an aberrant horror? If I'm a player and I see that I can become a cool aberration-monster, what do you as the DM do when I ask how that could have happened? Some context would have been helpful, is all.

[Amdy_vill]

What I actually wish they had done a better job of was grounding the upgrade quests into the world. Like, where do you go for an "encounter with an Aberration, magical anomaly ..." in order to become an aberrant horror? If I'm a player and I see that I can become a cool aberration-monster, what do you as the DM do when I ask how that could have happened? Some context would have been helpful, is all.

Their quite a bit of context throughout the book. I do think Abberation has the least though. but things like wild magic zones, encounters/ experimentation by ilithiods.

[Sparky McDibben]

Their quite a bit of context throughout the book. I do think Abberation has the least though. but things like wild magic zones, encounters/ experimentation by ilithiods.

That's fair. I still think they could have called that out in the Transformations chapter, but that might just be me.

[Amdy_vill]

That's fair. I still think they could have called that out in the Transformations chapter, but that might just be me.

the thing is with the exception of the aberanth horror their all well-trodden tropes with extensive lore in both Grim hollow and the MM. I do think the Horror could have had a more extensive explanation but outside of that the rest are just too common and have too many extra-textual sources to need covering. if Grim hollows transformations were in a PBH book for a system I can see the need but it's a 3rd party book the focuses on DMS.

[Alcore]

Ignore all of this you seem not to understand how this system works. you outright gain all tier 1 abilities your lich will always be undead if you are fallowing the transformation rules.

Why yes, you're right. It's almost as if i am looking for opinions for how well this works before i start using it myself. Oh, wait...


If we continue following my mistake a lich with only harvester and phylactery would not be affected by undead based spells cast by others. Like clerics or saraphs.


Lets try another that i triple checked...

If we assume that the vampire tiers provide all required powers and weaknesses to be vampires then how do you make spawn for the milestone? How do you take damage from sunlight/water? RAW has nothing but daywalkers* that can't make more (unless we rule that like Lycans they spread it with every bite that failed a save). Which is bad as some abilities reference taking damage by sunlight. Part of the tier 2 flaw requires sunlight damage.

*broken at tier three

[Alcore]

Edit: Almost forgot. As for Liches eating souls, yes that is a thing. If you check the MM, you will see it mentioned that they sustain the magic of their phylactery by consuming the souls of other creatures. This is also how you get a Demilich. They forget to feed, or are cut off, and their undead body breaks down to just a skull.

yep, in 5e.

Which isn't mentioned in 3.5 or pathfinder. Demilich does mention either extreme age or 'feeding' while neglecting to specify anything as it's "monster only!". Like a lot of things kept vague to prevent players from using (or i assume) it also deprived a baseline for DMs and meant they had to make their own stuff up.

Perhaps it appeared in 4e? Or perhaps 2e and they assumed everyone would already know for 3.5...

Edit: which is odd as vampires and lycanthropes have remained well documented in any edition i have used...

[Chaosmancer]

Lets try another that i triple checked...

If we assume that the vampire tiers provide all required powers and weaknesses to be vampires then how do you make spawn for the milestone? How do you take damage from sunlight/water? RAW has nothing but daywalkers* that can't make more (unless we rule that like Lycans they spread it with every bite that failed a save). Which is bad as some abilities reference taking damage by sunlight. Part of the tier 2 flaw requires sunlight damage.

*broken at tier three

I don't have the book, obviously, but I would say if you have an ability that just says "you take damage from sunlight" then the next step would be to assume that you use the vampire statblock in the MM for the specifics.

There might be a more specific thing listed in Grimhollow, but that would be my starting point if it isn't.

yep, in 5e.

Which isn't mentioned in 3.5 or pathfinder. Demilich does mention either extreme age or 'feeding' while neglecting to specify anything as it's "monster only!". Like a lot of things kept vague to prevent players from using (or i assume) it also deprived a baseline for DMs and meant they had to make their own stuff up.

Perhaps it appeared in 4e? Or perhaps 2e and they assumed everyone would already know for 3.5...

Edit: which is odd as vampires and lycanthropes have remained well documented in any edition i have used...

Um, I'm not quite sure what you are saying here?

Yes, this is a 5e 3rd party resource, so it is using the lore from 5e. And the 5e lich says right in their entry that they occasionally need to consume souls, and that the process puts a single soul in the phylactery, which is destroyed within 24 hours. They even give a method to do so.

And that if they fail or forget, their body begins breaking down, eventually becoming a Demilich. The Demilich is restored to full lichdom if they consume a single soul via their phylactery.


The only thing missing is how often a lich needs to eat a soul. Which is something most people would never really need to know, and falls into the same "how often do vampires need to drink blood" type of feeding question.

[Prince Vine]

Lets try another that i triple checked...

If we assume that the vampire tiers provide all required powers and weaknesses to be vampires then how do you make spawn for the milestone? How do you take damage from sunlight/water? RAW has nothing but daywalkers* that can't make more (unless we rule that like Lycans they spread it with every bite that failed a save). Which is bad as some abilities reference taking damage by sunlight. Part of the tier 2 flaw requires sunlight damage.

*broken at tier three

I think that is just there to prep for the third tier when you start taking that damage.


Now I need to work on the other transformations since the 'official' ones won't release for another year.