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    Default 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Believe it or not, a lot of players are unconcerned with being as powerful as humanly possible! Some thoughts on the integration of powergamers and role-players.

    13:51

    https://youtu.be/gS3p2bWmrgA

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    I think I'm getting repetitive, but great video once again. I believe the most valuable advice is the proper alignment with the DM. You should quietly surprise your party folks, not the DM.

    Speaking of this, I believe this is the greatest contribution Treatmonk made to the community when he kind of crafted the "God Wizard" concept. It's all about to make your allies shine and ensure your party will always accomplish their goals without stealing the heroic moments. If you are a powergamer and probably dominate the rules and mechanics better than anyone else, you should use this knowledge to grant an amazing fun time to everyone. We always vibrate together when the Paladin/Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian get a crit against the boss -- you can make this happen more often by leveraging Hold Person. Or the classic dangerous moment when someone falls off the roof and you have the humble Feather Fall to avoid any undesired deaths.

    I remember my last session when we fought couple Bugbears and several Goblins, our DM noticed we would win the challenge without too much worries and brought two Worgs to give some pressure on us. A simple and lucky Web kind of hold the Worgs for 2-3 rounds, we were able to clean up the goblinoids, get some healing and then face the Worgs with more safety. Classic divide & conquer strategy. In the end of the game, my friends thought we had some luck and the encounters were actually easy. They didn't realize this couple rounds Web held the Worgs made the total difference -- and this was awesome, my Wizard contributed a lot to ensure the success of my party, didn't overshadow no one and our Tempest Cleric exploded several goblins with his AoE thunders.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikimba View Post
    Speaking of this, I believe this is the greatest contribution Treatmonk made to the community when he kind of crafted the "God Wizard" concept. It's all about to make your allies shine and ensure your party will always accomplish their goals without stealing the heroic moments. If you are a powergamer and probably dominate the rules and mechanics better than anyone else, you should use this knowledge to grant an amazing fun time to everyone.
    This bears repeating. While I love min-maxing and rolling big damage dice as much as the next optimizer, one of the best characters I've played was a Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard X buff/debuff/control supporter. I was able to leverage optimization into making everyone else in the party better, and setting up key "alley-oop" plays for other players to slam dunk, while rarely inflicting damage directly myself (other than incidental damage from stuff like Vicious Mockery).
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-11-23 at 01:04 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    Believe it or not, a lot of players are unconcerned with being as powerful as humanly possible! Some thoughts on the integration of powergamers and role-players.
    13:51
    https://youtu.be/gS3p2bWmrgA
    Are we dealing in a Stormwind fallacy video here? Why do you believe that those two categories are exclusive of each other?
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikimba View Post
    Speaking of this, I believe this is the greatest contribution Treatmonk made to the community when he kind of crafted the "God Wizard" concept.
    The """"god wizard""" concept is the worst D&D content Treantmonk has ever done, and it has poisoned both forum discussions and people's conceptions of the game for years.

    It being more or less forgotten nowadays, or at least not talked about much, is honestly the only good thing that ever came of it.


    EDIT:

    I'm not taking about the "support caster can help the whole party" part, this was old way before Treantmonk. I'm talking about his smug, bombastic assertions that:

    a) a wizard played by a powergamer is so strong that they have to play support to not make the other players feel bad.

    b) the other players are not be able to notice how helpful the support caster is.

    c) a support caster is in any way, shape or form god-like, let alone the way he presented it in his failure of an essay.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2020-11-23 at 02:29 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    The """"god wizard""" concept is the worst D&D content Treantmonk has ever done, and it has poisoned both forum discussions and people's conceptions of the game for years.

    It being more or less forgotten nowadays, or at least not talked about much, is honestly the only good thing that ever came of it.
    I still remember his Enchanter build/video that keeps preparing sleep in tier 2 and doesn't take Wall of Force at levels 9 or 10. Dude loves enchanters and I simply don't know why...

    There was obviously more problems but those two in particular were especially egregious.

    I was thinking to myself "does this guy actually play the characters he makes?" You get to the level 6 enchanter feature and realize it competes directly with the shield spell, but even the shield spell works on more than one attack...


    To digress to the original thread, classic stormwind fallacy.

    Oh also,are you (the OP) the content creator? I humbly request a "break the game with Necromancer" powergamer exclusive. The world must know how futtbucking strong this subclass is.
    Last edited by TheUser; 2020-11-23 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    The """"god wizard""" concept is the worst D&D content Treantmonk has ever done, and it has poisoned both forum discussions and people's conceptions of the game for years.

    It being more or less forgotten nowadays, or at least not talked about much, is honestly the only good thing that ever came of it.


    EDIT:

    I'm not taking about the "support caster can help the whole party" part, this was old way before Treantmonk. I'm talking about his smug, bombastic assertions that:

    a) a wizard played by a powergamer is so strong that they have to play support to not make the other players feel bad.

    b) the other players are not be able to notice how helpful the support caster is.

    c) a support caster is in any way, shape or form god-like, let alone the way he presented it in his failure of an essay.
    I like the "god wizard" concept, but I agree with you. My support casters have never been more powerful than the rest of the party (even if my character thinks he is!).

    If anything, when I play this archetype, the others at the table definitely realize how much my character is helping.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    I was thinking to myself "does this guy actually play the characters he makes?"
    I dobut it. IIRC, he posted a video on the monk, and panned, it, before he ever played a monk. Some of the folks here took him to task for that. (If my memory is wrong, I apologize... reviewing the thread now)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-11-23 at 02:54 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I like the "god wizard" concept, but I agree with you.
    Nothing against support casters, myself, only with the idea it somehow is a show of superiority which what the whole "god wizard" thing is all about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    My support casters have never been more powerful than the rest of the party (even if my character thinks he is!).
    Classic hubristic wizard? Those can be loads of fun.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2020-11-23 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I like the "god wizard" concept, but I agree with you. My support casters have never been more powerful than the rest of the party (even if my character thinks he is!)
    Agreed -- I think the big contribution is highlighting that optimisation doesn't need to use your character as the baseline, but instead the party. In other words, you as a party do much better (more "optimally") if {party, you with option} is better than {party, you with other option}. That strikes me most noticeably for healing characters in the party, where some optimised characters are very clearly worse at the party level when they mean the healer uses most of their resources on healing instead of on what they want to do or what would be optimal.

    (It just gets pretty lost, even in his guides and videos, where it really just ends up seeming like optimising the character with the character as the baseline despite his introductions about making the party better -- often without even realising that his character was part of that.)

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I dobut it. IIRC, he posted a video on the monk, and panned, it, before he ever played a monk. Some of the folks here took him to task for that. (If my memory is wrong, I apologize... reviewing the thread now)
    Somehow Treatmonk (and others) actually manage to convince other people they know what theyre talking about, even though it is based on white room theoretical analysis. Over and over again.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    Believe it or not, a lot of players are unconcerned with being as powerful as humanly possible! Some thoughts on the integration of powergamers and role-players.

    13:51

    https://youtu.be/gS3p2bWmrgA
    Reaction to the video's use of the term "powergamer" both as a pejorative and as a term of identity to be proud of:

    It's interesting how meanings have shifted over time. A lot of the emotional baggage around the world "powergamer" seems to fit better with the original meaning of the term:

    I. POWER GAMING
    This is how most FRP games start out, and is by far the most common form. It's where the 20th+ level wizards, 13th/13th/13th split fighter/mage/clerics most often come from. The Mace of Cuthbert, Stormbringer, the One Ring, and other mighty artifacts often appear on the equipment lists of player characters who hail from them, usually to the distress of GMs of other schools.

    The purpose of the game is neither role-playing (as such) nor the development of skills. Instead, the main drive of the players is power. Levels, magic, special abilities, divine favor, and other sources of individual strength are what matters. The personality of the typical character is that of the player, decked out with labels such as "class" and "alignment."

    A typical exchange in some games of this sort might sound like this:

    "I'm gonna run my 20th level cleric with the +5 plage and shield, the Sceptre of the Demon Kings, the Ring of Arkyn, and the Spell Turning Ring."
    "OK, what's his name?"
    "Uh, name? Er, call him Jocko."
    "Got it! What's he a cleric of?"
    "Huh? Oh, I never thought of that. But he's lawful/good."
    It's usually the amount of power available that determines the outcome of battles, and an inadequate supply of it can be disastrous. Given this and the way games of this sort operate, then an abundance of magic is only to be expected. Power gaming causes much competition among the players, "winning" being possible by the accumulation of magic and other means of power. In some cases this has led to inter-character treachery, murder, and theft over ownership of especially good magic, or even to prevent another character from overshadowing one's own.

    II. ROLE-PLAYING
    Within the pure role-playing campaign, the most important element is the player character and his or her life. The personalities of the characters are worked out in loving detail, and favorite characters tend to have great emotional investments made in them. Their owners do not hold the lives of these beings to be cheap. Characters tend to act within the personalities accorded to them and by the beliefs they're supposed to hold, and the players speak in persona. An example of this might be:

    The party discussed the possibility that the young nobleman they were searching for was held prisoner in the castle ahead. Cunnerith and Hippoclates the Sot are the most vocal, but the clever young elf-maid Violet and quiet Aris the Mariner have their own points to make. Much more seldom, dour and vinegary Waldo the Silent makes a brief but incisive comment. And, inevitably, there is a constant stream of chatter from Naomi. Not that anyone ever pays any attention to that thimblewit.
    The last was almost a fatal mistake. For as the party entered the great hall the next day, Naomi looked around confusedly and asked (one of the party, fortunately), "Where's the man we're supposed to rescue?"
    Well, nobody ever said she had any brains!
    "Shut up, Naomi!" came the chorus.
    In a game of this sort, the world is just a stage on which the characters live out their lives, with the spotlight directed at them. They suffer, they triumph, they have their loves, hates, and sorrows; and in some way they are as alive as the players who created them.

    As might be expected, the above tends to influence the structure of the game. Given the emotional attachment of the player to his characters, a high casualty rate is downright counter-productive. The players will withdraw the precious "lives" from the game to a place of safety. As a result, the GM tends to exercise a considerable amount of discretion with regard to the player characters, utilizing methods such as "soft-keying" (willingness to adjus the opposition's strength after the fighting has started so that the party won't be overmatched) and subtly trying to warn off the expedition if they're approaching something that they can't handle.

    It should be noted that this is a particularly cooperative form of FRP gaming. Inter-player rivalry -- except as demanded by characterization -- tends to be relatively rare. The GM usually helps things along by providing the players chances to interact with the universe and each other.

    III. WARGAMING
    Here one might say that the emphasis is almost the reverse of the role-playing oriented game. The most important facets of this type of game are the tactical abilities of the players and GM, and the mechanics of play. There is a strong tendency towards a relatively low level of magic here, both in quantity and quality, since it is upsetting the GM to have a tactically brilliant setup destroyed when a character pulls out a gadget.

    Wargaming FRP is a competition between the players (as a group) and the GM in which they match wits and skills. He sets up tactical problems which they have to solve for their experience and treasure. Knowhow is all-important, and detailed knowledge of rules a vast help. Since there is a fine edge of danger in the game, developing a character's personality may result in it doing things dysfunctional to survival. Hence the role-playing aspect of the "pure" wargaming approach is often minimal.

    It should be obvious that in a game dominated by this way of thinkng, soft-keying is an extremely dubious practice. The ethic demands that the players survive by their wits, with bad play being rewarded by death. For the GM to arbitrarily reduce the opposition in order to save the party would be as much cheating as adding monsters to raise the death rate would.

    Unlike role-playing based games, killing player characters is an integral and logical part of the game; in fact, many Gms of this school set themselves a desired kill ratio and try to meet it. While this fosters a competitive approach between the GM and players, it usually tends to reduce inter-character fighting. The world is foe enough...

    IV. STORY TELLING
    In the most general sense of the term, any successful FRP game requires some story telling ability. There are few players who will abide a GM who is so inept that they can't figure out what's going on most of the time, or whose tale limps so badly that suspension of disbelief is impossible.

    However, the term as used here means something beyond this basic approach.

    All of the game types mentioned above have background of some sort. The GM may be content with the basic gilded hole with attached false front town, or he might indulge in the splendid pageantry of empire, complete with ruling dynasty, elaborate history, and detailed geography. Regardless of the extent of the universe, however, in most games it's just stage setting. Unless the players characters walk into a scene, the non-player characters there remain frozen and inactive, just stringless puppets.

    In a story telling world, the non-player characters are alive offstage. History is a continuing and developing process, with the actions of both player and non-player characters affecting the course of events. Moreover, the GM has usually a very good idea of how the general trend of events is going. Also, of how the actions of the adventurers can affect things.

    Now, the pure form of the story telling game is rare, and every campaign emphasizing it is unique. The details of what's going on depend entirely on what story the GM is telling. A role-player encountering such a game for the first time will usually find it a trifle odd, for unlike the heavily role-playing game, the player characters are not on the center of the stage, not the element about which events revolve. The player characters can only act within the tale, and their freedom is somewhat limited...

    The friends sang merrily, toasting their luck in fine Golidene wine in the public room of the Red Wolf Inn.

    "By -------!" hiccuped Rhodri, "Tomorrow we head for the Alarghi Hills and enough gold to make us rich for the rest of our lives!"

    The other fighter, a pretty lass named Susanna, and the half-drunk mage Gondor, both nodded happily, aglow with anticipation.

    Gondor looked up at the sound of footsteps. "Sergeant Orse! Sit down and have a drink! We're leaving tomorrow. Gonna get rich!"

    The sergeant grinned, poured himself a glass of wine, and let the sparkling vintage wash the dust from his parched throat. Then he smiled benevolently at the group, "Oh no, you're not."

    "Huh?!" chorused the group, "Why not???"

    "Because," said the sergeant, cheerfully sipping away at his glass, "the Hadurnei just broke out in rebellion, and you're all drafted into the militia for the duration."

    The amount of freedom can vary enormously. In some games of this kind, there is a distinct impression that the GM has already determined the entire future of the universe, and that the player characters are just improvising the script. In more free-form versions of this game type, the flow of the story and the form of the script are decided by interactions between the GM's general outline of events and the actions of individuals within the campaign.

    Much of the attraction of this kind of world comes from the fact that there is a story being told in which one's character is participating. The world has a purpose, a reason for being, independent of what the adventurers do. Living in such a world is not a little like being a character within a novel. It does require a constant effort on the part of its creator to make the universe--whether it's a county or a continent--rational and consistent. And as an FRP forum, it requires a cooperative group of players.

    The statements above are, of course, generalizations. They are useful, however.


    I don't think it's true in general that DMs come from the roleplayer side though. DMs come from all four traditions: powergaming, roleplaying, wargaming, storytelling.

    I've sometimes referred to myself as a powergamer but I think it's actually clearer to use the terminology above and call myself a wargamer. I don't even want vorpal swords and Holy Avengers +5 and Rings of Air Elemental Command, but I do want people to tell me about cool new ways to exploit rule interactions (e.g. going prone vs. ranged melee attacks from a large monster who can't approach within 5' of my PC), or interesting poisons I've overlooked, or hilarious spell interactions, or mistakes I made in the last combat/adventure.

    Anyway, I think the techniques you need to use for a wargamer and a powergamer are actually quite different, because wargamers and powergamers want different things: power, vs. challenge.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-11-23 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Somehow Treatmonk (and others) actually manage to convince other people they know what theyre talking about, even though it is based on white room theoretical analysis. Over and over again.
    I have found that in play, monks make some fine contributions to the party.

    One of my favorite one shots was when I got to play a level 17 Sun Soul Monk. vHuman point buy. I was up to my eyeballs in ki. (Compared to the Tier 1 and Tier 2 stuff).

    I also had: ring of jumping, gaunts of ogre strength, and a cloak of displacement. Would have been cool to have had a fire giant belt also ... Oh well, maybe another time.

    As to the reprint Max made: mostly wargamer games (with a little bit of the other three included) tend to be what I prefer since I want the party to work to gether since

    The world is a dangerous place - otherwise we'd not need adventurers in the first place.

    Any number of things in the world will indeed kill them if they aren't on their A game, or on their B game. They can certainly kill their own characters by being careless.

    What's the win condition, if this is a wargame?
    1. Party is alive
    2. Something that was threatening somewhere/someone no longer is.
    3. The occasional "we recovered the MacGuffin" since it is needed to make the world a better place, or
    4. The occasional "we destroyed the MacGuffin" since it makes the world a worse place.

    Collecting power for the sake of power is a way to play; all a DM needs to do is make the opponents just a little bit harder, or larger in number. But scaling up usually doesn't work too well.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-11-23 at 03:58 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Somehow Treatmonk (and others) actually manage to convince other people they know what theyre talking about, even though it is based on white room theoretical analysis. Over and over again.
    Here's how: You get people who are exposed to D&D for the first time. They have a great time, they want to learn more, so they hit up youtube or just google.

    You're going to find treantmonk eventually, and much of his stuff is very highly rated.


    That being said, I actually really enjoy his stuff. He seems like a knowledgeable guy who is also pretty nice, and he tends to answer fan questions.

    I'm not saying I follow the gospel of Treantmonk or anything crazy like that, but I do enjoy his stuff.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    Here's how: You get people who are exposed to D&D for the first time. They have a great time, they want to learn more, so they hit up youtube or just google.

    You're going to find treantmonk eventually, and much of his stuff is very highly rated.
    Yeah, good material for the casual gamer.
    I noted in the TM monk thread that for casual gamers, he's done decent work. I certainly took a look at some of his early 5e stuff when I came back to the game. I have just stopped watching D&D videos on youtube since most are of abysmal quality in terms of 'I get 4 minutes of material in a 12 minute video by an amateur who needs six more classes in how to do a presentation."

    I spent a few years producing training material, and I've a sense of how to speak in public and get your point across. Very few youtuber even try to do that.

    It's kind of like what cigarettes became over the years: lots of filler, darned little tobacco. (Yet another reason that I quit smoking)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-11-23 at 04:04 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Anyway, I think the techniques you need to use for a wargamer and a powergamer are actually quite different, because wargamers and powergamers want different things: power, vs. challenge.
    That is quite correct.

    What should also be noted, though, is that in the context of a RPG the only way a PC has power-in-the-powergaming-sense-of-the-term is because the DM decided to not make the situation a challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    He seems like a knowledgeable guy who is also pretty nice.
    Keyword here is "seem".

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Collecting power for the sake of power is a way to play
    Reminds me of the regular complain about how money is supposedly useless in 5e because you can't easily spend it to boost your character more.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2020-11-23 at 04:11 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    That is quite correct.

    What should also be noted, though, is that in the context of a RPG the only way a PC has power-in-the-powergaming-sense-of-the-term is because the DM decided to not make the situation a challenge.
    [thinking out loud] Hmmm. I almost think the two concepts are orthogonal, because "challenge" is about complexity and mental effort, and "power" is about... something more straightforward.

    If I give you the 1/short rest ability to roll a d20, and on a roll of 1 nothing happens, and on any other roll you can kill any creature anywhere in the universe, then I have you fight the Tarrasque in an arena, you have a lot of power but not much challenge. You'll straightforwardly win or straightforwardly lose.

    If I give you the at-will ability as an action to roll a d20, and on a roll of 20 you can inflict 30 HP of damage on a creature within line of sight, and on any other roll nothing happens, then I have you fight the Tarrasque in an arena, you have not much power and not much challenge. You'll straightforwardly lose.

    As the environment and the opposition increases in complexity, challenge grows to the extent that winning becomes possible yet uncertain, and dependent on your skill at applying what power you do have. If you lose the first dozen times you attempt it, but after 100 tries you're winning it almost every time, then challenge is probably part of the fight/game/adventure.

    Maybe this is why we love the "what level do you have to be to kill the Tarrasque under XYZ conditions?" game, because it's about applying challenge in a condition where you don't have raw power. Or maybe we just like to mock the 5E Tarrasque's bad design and lack of any kind of power except brute force in a cage match. :-D
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-11-23 at 04:24 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    That being said, I actually really enjoy his stuff. He seems like a knowledgeable guy who is also pretty nice, and he tends to answer fan questions.
    Is definitely a nice guy. Much nicer than I am. And yes he's very engaged.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    The """"god wizard""" concept is the worst D&D content Treantmonk has ever done, and it has poisoned both forum discussions and people's conceptions of the game for years.

    It being more or less forgotten nowadays, or at least not talked about much, is honestly the only good thing that ever came of it.


    EDIT:

    I'm not taking about the "support caster can help the whole party" part, this was old way before Treantmonk. I'm talking about his smug, bombastic assertions that:

    a) a wizard played by a powergamer is so strong that they have to play support to not make the other players feel bad.

    b) the other players are not be able to notice how helpful the support caster is.

    c) a support caster is in any way, shape or form god-like, let alone the way he presented it in his failure of an essay.
    I actually agree with you. What I said about the “god wizard” play style (*) was to look for optimization thinking on how to increase the effectiveness of the entire party in all possible pillars and scenarios. From survivabiliy to social interactions. Combat, exploration, mystery solving and etc.

    A common “optimization” concept we had in the places I played was always related with (1) who can dish out more damage / kill more & (2) who can survive better / resist more. It’s quite simple and perhaps juvenile, but it was super common to see people playing only Paladins, Evokers Fireballers, Moon Druids and/or Sharpshooter/GWM/XBE/PAM characters. They were competing to see who was able to kill more (or resist more), not looking for group synergies or the like. When we discovered Treatmonk content (not even his YouTube videos back at the time), everyone was impacted by his message, changing from these “individual contributor” mindset to a more “optimized group” approach.

    (*) Once again, I don’t know if he actually created this concept of having a dedicated character to make the entire party shine (whether Wizard or not) not only by buffing but by controlling the battlefield, but the first time I saw this was in his “God Wizard Guide”, that I agree the flavor text is kind of lame making Wizards as “Olympic Gods”, but the actual advices there were valuable to me and the people who played with me back at that time. We actually call this as “Batman Wizard”, looking for versatility and utility, I do agree this expression “God Wizard” is to pushy, but I always thought it was the common slang.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Are we dealing in a Stormwind fallacy video here? Why do you believe that those two categories are exclusive of each other?
    I don't. This is a combative, uncharitable interpretation that ignores the point in the video where I described how my powergamed character wrote a 4 page RP story to explain a mechanics transition (which is not to imply that is your intent or attitude, but more my perception!). I'd think this indicates that I understand that they aren't mutually exclusive! But many have brought this up, so I understand that I should have put a stronger qualifier in there. I don't like to overly qualify as I think this is pedantic and wastes valuable screen time, but I think I will put a visual disclaimer on the screen going forward to make the sufficient qualifications and avoid these sorts of misunderstandings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    The """"god wizard""" concept is the worst D&D content Treantmonk has ever done, and it has poisoned both forum discussions and people's conceptions of the game for years.

    It being more or less forgotten nowadays, or at least not talked about much, is honestly the only good thing that ever came of it.

    I'm not taking about the "support caster can help the whole party" part, this was old way before Treantmonk. I'm talking about his smug, bombastic assertions that:

    a) a wizard played by a powergamer is so strong that they have to play support to not make the other players feel bad.

    b) the other players are not be able to notice how helpful the support caster is.

    c) a support caster is in any way, shape or form god-like, let alone the way he presented it in his failure of an essay.
    "God Wizard" is a new phrase for me... in the old days, we just called them controllers. It's the strongest playstyle for casters, imo, but certainly the phrase can be offputting, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    I still remember his Enchanter build/video that keeps preparing sleep in tier 2 and doesn't take Wall of Force at levels 9 or 10. Dude loves enchanters and I simply don't know why...

    There was obviously more problems but those two in particular were especially egregious.

    I was thinking to myself "does this guy actually play the characters he makes?" You get to the level 6 enchanter feature and realize it competes directly with the shield spell, but even the shield spell works on more than one attack...


    To digress to the original thread, classic stormwind fallacy.

    Oh also,are you (the OP) the content creator? I humbly request a "break the game with Necromancer" powergamer exclusive. The world must know how futtbucking strong this subclass is.
    I love all 4 of the Enchanter powers and still probably rank it 2nd after Chronurgy, top to bottom. The main weakness is the ubiquity of Charm Immunity/Resistance. In regards to Instinctive Charm, it doesn't compete with Shield, it complements Shield. It can thwart a critical, which Shield cannot do, and you have infinite slots, of which Shield only has 4 at best. I loved having both.

    And again, the Stormwind Fallacy is quickly assumed by those who want to challenge it, but full observation (IMO) should have made clear that my perspective is far more nuanced that that. But I do understand the nature of internet "debate" so it's not particularly annoying except that I regret not making that more clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Somehow Treatmonk (and others) actually manage to convince other people they know what theyre talking about, even though it is based on white room theoretical analysis. Over and over again.
    Ha ha, guilty! I've only played one character in a party with only Clerics (and now a Paladin), so much of my understanding is white-room theorizing. But I think such can still be cogent! And it's an excellent jumping off point for further discussion, and I definitely enjoy expanding my knowledge of other classes and such via internet discussion so that those who've actually played those mechanics can chime in with their more nuanced perspectives.
    Last edited by Bilbron; 2020-11-23 at 07:24 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    "God Wizard" is a new phrase for me... in the old days, we just called them controllers. It's the strongest playstyle for casters, imo, but certainly the phrase can be offputting, lol.
    It depends on the ruleset. In 5E due to bounded accuracy and the unusual scaling of certain spells (Conjure Animals and Planar Binding), I think summoning is considerably stronger than controlling, although there are obviously synergies--you can sometimes do both.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Reaction to the video's use of the term "powergamer" both as a pejorative and as a term of identity to be proud of:

    It's interesting how meanings have shifted over time. A lot of the emotional baggage around the world "powergamer" seems to fit better with the original meaning of the term:
    Thanks for the excellent (as always) and informative response! I'm back to RPGs (this year) after a long layoff, so I've missed much of the discussion and the space has evolved in ways that still surprise me :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It depends on the ruleset. In 5E due to bounded accuracy and the unusual scaling of certain spells (Conjure Animals and Planar Binding), I think summoning is considerably stronger than controlling, although there are obviously synergies--you can sometimes do both.
    Oh, agreed! That's why I was more or less appalled at the state of summoning in 5e when I started a year ago, especially since my DM introduces game negatives for summoning Fiends. I like the new Tasha's revamp and those spells are much more useful to me in this campaign. I did play a summoner in my only other modern D&D game (Pathfinder like 3 years ago) so probably wouldn't want to do that again, though. Still, Bilbron definitely gets a lot of mileage out of Tiny Servant and I look forward to using Summon Aberration.
    Last edited by Bilbron; 2020-11-23 at 07:29 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    Thanks for the excellent (as always) and informative response! I'm back to RPGs (this year) after a long layoff, so I've missed much of the discussion and the space has evolved in ways that still surprise me :-)
    In this case it's an old distinction, not a new one. :) Actually I think that original article predates even your involvement in the game, since I think you mentioned you've been playing for "only" 40 years. It's from 1980, fifty years ago, and it certainly predates my involvement in (A)D&D by over a decade although I think there are folks around here like Korvin and WillieTheDuck and others who go all the way back to oD&D in the 70's.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-11-23 at 08:04 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Actually I think that original article predates your involvement in the game, since I think you mentioned you've been playing for "only" 40 years. It's from 1980, fifty years ago, and it certainly predates my involvement in (A)D&D by over a decade although I think there are folks around here like Korvin and WillieTheDuck and others who go all the way back to oD&D in the 70's.
    Ha ha, I was 10 in 1980 and a 1 year D&D vet at that point (ah, good ol' "Brin Londo"...). But regardless, I was referring more to the general state of the game community and the visceral responses I've been getting to what seems to me inoccuous perspectives (and phrasing).

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Actually I think that original article predates your involvement in the game, since I think you mentioned you've been playing for "only" 40 years. It's from 1980, fifty years ago
    Maths aren't my strong suit. But this here ain't adding up.
    Last edited by Guy Lombard-O; 2020-11-23 at 08:05 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    Ha ha, I was 10 in 1980 and a 1 year D&D vet at that point (ah, good ol' "Brin Londo"...). But regardless, I was referring more to the general state of the game community and the visceral responses I've been getting to what seems to me inoccuous perspectives (and phrasing).
    Oh yeah, I guess I just proved I can't do math. 2020-1980 != 50. :)

    Thanks for the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Lombard-O View Post
    Maths aren't my strong suit. But this here ain't adding up.
    Derp.

    To make it even funnier, I was BORN in 1980. You'd think I would know that I'm not yet 50 but apparently not...
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-11-23 at 08:08 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    Oh also,are you (the OP) the content creator? I humbly request a "break the game with Necromancer" powergamer exclusive. The world must know how futtbucking strong this subclass is.
    Great idea, a necromancer is super powerful with a bunch of skeleton minions. Though I saw a popularity ranking of subdomains once and necro was like 2nd or 3rd most popular. Will definitely do a dive into all the subdomains, at some point though.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    Great idea, a necromancer is super powerful with a bunch of skeleton minions. Though I saw a popularity ranking of subdomains once and necro was like 2nd or 3rd most popular. Will definitely do a dive into all the subdomains, at some point though.
    Spoiler: How To Break the Game with Necromancy
    Show

    Even better than skeletons, which you have to renew control of every day, is when you graduate to creating and Geasing + Mass Suggestion-ing wights, which get multiple longbow attacks per round, have a lot more HP, are immune to nonmagical weapons, and... are not immune to charm! (Therefore not immune to long-term Geas/Mass Suggestion.)

    You'll have to come up with a suitable Mass Suggestion, which will probably involve paying them somehow ("Enlist in the Legion of Doom, of which I happen to be the commander"), and also renewing your Mass Suggestion every few months to a year. But 30-50 intelligent super-wights that you don't have to spend spell slots on every day, and who are capable of showing independent initiative, is a lot more fun than a hundred and fifty near-mindless skeletons. You may want to keep a dozen or two skeletons or zombies* around anyway as cheap fodder/insurance (the wights can't attack you while Geased but still, a little paranoia is healthy for a necromancer), and maybe a couple of Planar Binding bodyguards (Air Elementals?), but for the most part you can expect skeletons to go obsolete in Tier 3-4.

    * Especially the perma-zombies you can make with Finger of Death.

    Honestly the biggest problem with necromancers is that... they make the game so easy that players get bored and start self-limiting. The new Tasha's spells are weak enough to help with that. I can totally see Necromancers leveraging Summon Undead more than Animate Dead specifically because it's weaker than skeleton armies. Or maybe a combination: 4 zombies as meat shields/grapplers, plus a summoned Ghostly Spirit/whatever.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-11-23 at 11:36 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    I don't. This is a combative, uncharitable interpretation that ignores the point in the video where I described how my powergamed character wrote a 4 page RP story to explain a mechanics transition (which is not to imply that is your intent or attitude, but more my perception!). I'd think this indicates that I understand that they aren't mutually exclusive! But many have brought this up, so I understand that I should have put a stronger qualifier in there.
    Thank you for clearing that up.

    Maybe I was unclear: I don't waste my time on someone's home movies that last 15 minutes and get posted on youtube while they try to describe D&D to me. When you say "ignores the point in the video" you are incorrect: any point that you allegedly make in a video is opaque to me since I don't waste time watching them.

    I generally respond to what's written.

    Here's my perspective on communication on a forum: we interact in a text based medium here on this forum. You want to make a point? Write it, and write it clearly. I'll pay attention. (We may agree or disagree). You want to say "here, watch this" then you have failed to make any point at all. My time is my own to spend (or waste) and you don't get that 15 (or 13 or 12 or 8) minutes of my life.

    I am glad that you got a variety of responses that you found to be of interest.

    @Max: 1980. That's when I graduated with a Bachelor's degree. Yikes, I are an old fart.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-11-24 at 04:13 PM.
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    Default Re: 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Metagaming Series: Powergaming and Table Dynamics

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    @Max: 1980. That's when I graduated with a Bachelor's degree. Yikes, I are an old fart.
    Or a child prodigy!

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