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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    So there are a good number of spells and a lot of them are cool. So it makes it hard to choose. So my question is now with Tasha's book out what are yall updated list for Bards Magical Secrets?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Still the same.
    Find Greater Steed and Wall of Force 99% of the time.
    I'm an optimizer, so when I say something is good, that means I think that it's powerful relative to the strongest options the system offers from a mechanical standpoint.
    When I say something is bad, I do not mean that is not viable or that you shouldn't play it, only that it isn't satisfactory for high optimization tables.

    I use LudicSavant's and AureusFulgen's DPR Calculator to calculate DPR.
    My builds can be found at BendKing's Baffling Builds Bundle.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Yeah, not much change.

    Depends on what you're going for, but unless you're wanting to make a Summoner Bard (which is already going to be tricky to pull off), I don't see any of the new Tasha's spells being "must haves". Certainly nothing that would be better than the other old standbys like Fly, Counterspell, Greater Steed, Haste, Wall of Force, etc.

    Maybe Spirit Shroud if you're a melee Bard and really want a boost to your melee damage, instead of something like Elemental Weapon or Holy Weapon, provided you already have access to a magic weapon. I still think the latter spells are better, especially if you don't already have a magic weapon, but even if you do then the longer duration of EW or HW in place of a few points less damage is still a good choice. And even on a melee Bard, I don't think SS/EW/HW is really an optimal way to spend your Concentration in most battles. You could be doing much more powerful things with your Concentration than just inflicting a few more points of melee damage.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-11-23 at 12:11 PM.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    The Tasha's spells tend not to be game changers-the summon spells are great for being more practical than the old conjure spells, but as a Bard this is unlikely to be your cup of tea anyway.

    There are some clear winners because you can do things that are quasi-class features, like swift quiver and find greater steed for level 10 secrets, or Tenser's transformation, similacrum, or contingency for level 14 secrets (although there are questions as to if you can actually use contingency as written), etc. and some clear winners because they are just stupid good spells (Fireball, counterspell, wall of force).

    The only question is if Tasha's otherworldly guise might replace Tensers transformation for those builds that like that spell, and I'm not quite sure yet-Tashas does not disable spellcasting and is more defensive in terms of immunities, AC, etc, but Tensers has concentration advantage and a huge ball of damage built in, let alone the 50 temp HP and proficiencies.

    What exact combo you want to go with is variable. There are a couple bard builds that care more about tensers and swift quiver, for instance. If you want a generic support bard build-

    Level 6 if lore: Counterspell, Fireball.

    Level 10: Find Greater Steed, Wall of Force

    Level 14: Contingency (if it works), Similacrum, Reverse Gravity.

    Level 18: Meteor Swarm, Wish.

    However one thing to note is that you can and should consider going back to pick up lower level spells instead of grabbing higher level ones. This is particularly pertinent at level 14, where Bards tend to get a fine spell list innately, so going back for counterspell is a fine choice.
    Last edited by MrCharlie; 2020-11-23 at 12:26 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Circle of power is always overlooked for some reason. If your party doesn't already have advantage on saves and magical effects this is the gold standard for MS IMO.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Still the same.
    Find Greater Steed and Wall of Force 99% of the time.
    Mostly this.

    One of the reasons Wall of Force in particular does so well is no save and you can use compulsion to herd a group into a wall and then keep them there with WoF.

    If somebody else has wall of force or you aren't in an open space where find greater steed's flight will do as much heavy lifting they might not suit you.

    I play mostly Valor Bards so Spirit Guardians is always rock solid as I like to get in there and mix it up, there's also usually a wizard in my groups too.

    Counterspell is always strong if your DM likes casters and benefits from Jack of All Trades, so instead of rolling at a +4 or 5 to counter a higher level spell you'd be rolling at +6 or 7.

    I'm growing to adore Maelstrom the more I see it and have even gone so far to create the Zone of Ultimate Frustration (patent pending) with my group. It involves a combination of Maelstrom, Silence and Plant Growth. 2 out of 3 of those spells Bards already know.

    Tidal Wave is also turning into a real hidden gem in tier 3 for turfing flyers. 120ft Range and a 30ft line means you can slap it on a flyer and force them to the ground at up to ~150ft away.

    It does only 4d8 damage but toss on a 100ft drop and suddenly it's a concentration free 4d8+10d6 plus get that flyer down for all your melee to get on top of.

    Anyway mostly just spit balling.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    I was hoping to not see Wall of Force, counterspell, fireball, find greater stead. They are all over the place and I just find them to boaring and not fun to use. So I was hoping to read people picking different spells and why they picked something else. There are over 400 spells and yall keep picking the same 4 spells.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by Throne12 View Post
    I was hoping to not see Wall of Force, counterspell, fireball, find greater stead. They are all over the place and I just find them to boaring and not fun to use. So I was hoping to read people picking different spells and why they picked something else. There are over 400 spells and yall keep picking the same 4 spells.
    At level six, I expect to get two 3rd level magical spells with my lore bard. We have a halfling paladin who likes to ride things. The player wants to do animal handling on ... everything, including beasts like giant sharks that are trying to attack us.
    The Party: Human Lore Bard, aasimar Hexblade, Warforged Cleric(War), Halfling Paladin(Redemption), Kenku Rogue/Monk MC.

    I am probably going to use one of my picks for conjure animals (druid spell).
    Why? Well, who doesn't like having a pack of wolves or a couple of giant eagles on call for when you need them? Or if it gets cold at night, get some nice brown bears or black bears to snuggle up with and keep warm ... dire wolves for riding and knocking things over ...

    If I can summon a pack of wolves, she'll get to ride on a steed for a while during combat while I swarm a few of our opponents with the rest of the wolves.
    I'll see if that will suit her fancy. When she gets find steed, I think she's going to get a little perturbed at how fragile then can be in some combats. We'll see.

    Once we get to level 9 I can burn a 5th level spell slot and get 4 Giant Eagles. That's sweet. We can fly where we need to get to; at that point the warlock can polymorph into a giant eagle, there are five of us.

    The other third level spell?

    I am going somewhat batty in trying to figure that out. Aura of Vitality looks appealing. So too does gaseous form, in tems of "situational thing that gets one of us out of a sticky situation to set up a rescue" ... still pondering.

    I also need to check out artificer spells to see if I get a good "gut" on one of them.

    Fireball will/would be nice since none of our other characters have it, but there are some Warlock spells that tempt me. Hunger of Hadar ... tempting.

    I need to coordinate with our hexblade to see what his preferences are.

    But Water Breathing is a potential spell: my background is pirate, and we may have further underwater adventures. We'll see what it looks like when we get to level 6.

    And of course, call lightning ... yeah, if we are outdoors a lot I'll want to have that handy.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-11-23 at 04:38 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by Throne12 View Post
    I was hoping to not see Wall of Force, counterspell, fireball, find greater stead. They are all over the place and I just find them to boaring and not fun to use. So I was hoping to read people picking different spells and why they picked something else. There are over 400 spells and yall keep picking the same 4 spells.
    Totally! Like, there probably are spells that are the most generally useful and it makes sense to suggest those when you don't know anything else about the character. But in a real game its way more interesting and realistic to pick things that make sense for your party, the things that have happened and the things that are going on with your character. You need that kind of context to make that decision though!

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by Throne12 View Post
    I was hoping to not see Wall of Force, counterspell, fireball, find greater stead. They are all over the place and I just find them to boaring and not fun to use. So I was hoping to read people picking different spells and why they picked something else. There are over 400 spells and yall keep picking the same 4 spells.
    Well, they are the best spells at their level, and some may actually go on a run for best spells in the game. There are other good spells which have been recommended, but those haven't changed.

    If you want alternative builds, most revolve around the martial bards either using cleric, ranger, or paladin spells to give the Bard either some healing, or to give the Bard some weird combat synergy they shouldn't have. So an alternative build might be a Whispers Bard who goes for Find Greater Steed and Swift Quiver at level 10, Tasha's Otherworldy Guise and Crown of Stars (for the lack of concentration and addition of a bonus action, natch) at level 14, and Wish and Meteor Swarm at level 18. I guess Tasha's did add the one buff you can twin to Find Greater Steed, so it did change a little bit, but otherwise you aren't looking at a huge game changer. Tenser's would be better if you could give it to your mount, most of the time.

    The other thing to consider is if the summon spells are good enough to be considered over the already present summons, and as long as Find Greater Steed is an option the answer is probably no. Maybe for a higher level spell learned, if you want one-and arguably bards do have summon synergy because they can apply bardic inspiration to their summons-but typically inspiration is best given to players, typically for saves or vital ability checks.

    End story, the old spells are still typically the best option, so nothing has changed much except for specific builds.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by Throne12 View Post
    I was hoping to not see Wall of Force, counterspell, fireball, find greater stead. They are all over the place and I just find them to boaring and not fun to use. So I was hoping to read people picking different spells and why they picked something else. There are over 400 spells and yall keep picking the same 4 spells.
    I personally am rather fond of Death Ward. Something about being able to give a DM the finger and insisting you didn't die just speaks to me on a level of love.
    Yes my older brother was the DM- part of the allure.

    Banishment can be useful if you're in a campaign that really likes throwing creatures from other planes at you.

    Steel Wind Strike has decent potential when you need to reposition and are surrounded.

    Telekinesis is always good for a laugh and extremely broad in how it can be used.

    Never got a chance to try out Enervate. Always wanted to though.

    That said- Counterspell is picked so often because it's the ONLY spell that does that. You'll have other spells for damage, buffs, saves, healing, etc. But only one spell let's you curb the spell before it happens.
    Last edited by SociopathFriend; 2020-11-23 at 08:44 PM.
    It's time for a preemptive retaliatory strike.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    iTreeby's Avatar

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Magic jar is still my favorite spell secret, gotta admit though, i haven't internalized tashas spells yet and it definitely isn't an optimal choice even in core but, bards are the best casters for magic jar which is otherwise basically an npc spell.
    avatar by Elrond

    "You should just homebrew the world's tiniest violin for your bard."

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by iTreeby View Post
    Magic jar is still my favorite spell secret, gotta admit though, i haven't internalized tashas spells yet and it definitely isn't an optimal choice even in core but, bards are the best casters for magic jar which is otherwise basically an npc spell.
    *laughs in Inured to Undeath*

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    *laughs in Inured to Undeath*
    If only that spell existed.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by Throne12 View Post
    I was hoping to not see Wall of Force, counterspell, fireball, find greater stead. They are all over the place and I just find them to boaring and not fun to use. So I was hoping to read people picking different spells and why they picked something else. There are over 400 spells and yall keep picking the same 4 spells.
    I'm barely familiar with this mechanic, but off the top of my head, I'm not a fan of either Fireball or Counterspell. If I had to go with 2 wizard/non-bard only 3rd level spells, I'd probably go with Phantom Steed and Tiny Servant. If I could add a 3rd it'd be Sleet Storm or Haste.
    Last edited by Bilbron; 2020-11-23 at 11:35 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCharlie View Post
    If only that spell existed.
    It's not supposed to be a spell.

    It's a Necromancer feature that interacts in a broken way with Magic Jar when taken as RAW

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    It's not supposed to be a spell.

    It's a Necromancer feature that interacts in a broken way with Magic Jar when taken as RAW
    Oh, right, that's what the feature is called.

    No, it doesen't work like that RAW, or at least there are reasons to doubt that interpretation. Your hit point maximum is replaced by the creatures per the rules text, and this is a replacement not a reduction or increase. The replacement can be higher or lower, but you swapped, you did not subtract. That hit point maximum is still out there, but someone else has it.

    But more generally, your maximum HP is a value given in the rules as CON+hit dice (either average or rolled), and while spells and magical effects can exceed this, their ending conditions are more specific than inured to undeath and thus bypass that feature. "Your hit point maximum can't be reduced" versus "This specific increase in hit point maximum is reversed at the end of the spell". You can also apply this logic to the "Hit point Maximum" granted by these abilities generally-Inured to Undeath applies to the generic hit point maximum term, not the specific hit point maximum from the spells, which are governed by their specific rules once they modify it.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCharlie View Post
    Oh, right, that's what the feature is called.

    No, it doesen't work like that RAW, or at least there are reasons to doubt that interpretation. Your hit point maximum is replaced by the creatures per the rules text, and this is a replacement not a reduction or increase. The replacement can be higher or lower, but you swapped, you did not subtract. That hit point maximum is still out there, but someone else has it.

    But more generally, your maximum HP is a value given in the rules as CON+hit dice (either average or rolled), and while spells and magical effects can exceed this, their ending conditions are more specific than inured to undeath and thus bypass that feature. "Your hit point maximum can't be reduced" versus "This specific increase in hit point maximum is reversed at the end of the spell". You can also apply this logic to the "Hit point Maximum" granted by these abilities generally-Inured to Undeath applies to the generic hit point maximum term, not the specific hit point maximum from the spells, which are governed by their specific rules once they modify it.
    If I replace your salary with a lower one have I reduced it?


    EDIT:
    If you require additional precedent take a look at Freedom of Movement:

    "For the duration, the targetís movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and spells and other magical effects can neither reduce the targetís speed nor cause the target to be paralyzed or restrained."

    Notice how it specifies that the target can't have it's speed reduced specifically by a set of things: difficult terrain, spells and other magical effects.

    In the case of Inured to Undeath the devs could have just as easily used this type of wording but they didn't. Ergo, we must assume that in this specific circumstance, not being able to be reduced means the number simply cannot go down so long as you retain access to the feature.
    Last edited by TheUser; 2020-11-24 at 07:37 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    If I replace your salary with a lower one have I reduced it?


    EDIT:
    If you require additional precedent take a look at Freedom of Movement:

    "For the duration, the targetís movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and spells and other magical effects can neither reduce the targetís speed nor cause the target to be paralyzed or restrained."

    Notice how it specifies that the target can't have it's speed reduced specifically by a set of things: difficult terrain, spells and other magical effects.

    In the case of Inured to Undeath the devs could have just as easily used this type of wording but they didn't. Ergo, we must assume that in this specific circumstance, not being able to be reduced means the number simply cannot go down so long as you retain access to the feature.
    That reasoning never works. There are lots of spots where text varies slightly-and we can assume, a priori, that they didn't want necromancers to have 3000 hit points, as the level 10 ability isn't "You can never die from combat damage".

    If I have a stock, and trade it for a stock of reduced value, did my stock reduce in value? No, I just traded it for another stock.

    Your hit point maximum never reduces, you just traded it for someone elses.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCharlie View Post
    That reasoning never works. There are lots of spots where text varies slightly-and we can assume, a priori, that they didn't want necromancers to have 3000 hit points, as the level 10 ability isn't "You can never die from combat damage".

    If I have a stock, and trade it for a stock of reduced value, did my stock reduce in value? No, I just traded it for another stock.

    Your hit point maximum never reduces, you just traded it for someone elses.
    We can try and make analogies that suit our story better (if you had a magical portfolio that can't decrease in value you can trade all the stock you want).

    The wording is very clear, once you trade to a new body your hit point maximum gets altered, all references the spell magic jar uses reference "your" stat block, you can trade maximum hitpoints all you want but once it's "yours" if you try and reduce it with a trade you're still trying to reduce it...

    Anyway, if you can explain how to get 3000 hitpoints without stacking the same magical effect I'm all ears.

    But it's hardly out of the scope of the wizard subclass power level,
    Illusionists have readied action malleable illusions to transform a dropped vine from your familiar on a restrained enemy and turn it into a 176,000lb cube of platinum.

    I'd say that even if you have 3000 hp you're going to be flattened into suffocation with no means of escape (gonna be hard to perform verbal and somatic components when pinned to the ground by over a hundred thousand lbs of platinum...

    Let's not derail the thread with the pedantics of "is swapping out a total with a lower one technically a reduction" it's a battle I've fought many times because rather than just say "no DM would actually allow this" (the proper answer) they try and argue that the word "reduced" means something other than "to make smaller"

    I'm going to push the Maelstrom front once more. It combos so well with so many other AoE's and it's only got overlap with one other caster (Druids) including Plant Growth, which doesn't require concentration.

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    I tweak it all the time, but no tweaks due to Tashaís. Itís mostly focused on the quest for eternal life.

    Fire Bolt - Damages objects, so can be used to gather and/or reduce the size of objects for Fabricate or Stone Shape.

    Chill Touch - Nothing to do with quest for eternal life. Just like it because it prevents target from regaining HP.

    Conjure Woodland Beings - I have an hour to kill while I wait for newly created Demiplane to close.

    Fabricate - To create items to protect Demiplane.

    Stone Shape - Same as Fabricate. (Can create wider variety and higher quality items with Fabricate, so Fabricate is generally preferred. Stone Shape is still useful though because itís quicker to cast and doesnít require raw materials, so you could Stone Shape from an existing creation such as a statue.)

    Word of Recall - Used thrice daily: 1. To go to existing Demiplane after Iíve Fabricated and/or Stone Shaped my item(s). 2. To dedicate new Demiplane to Lloth. 3. To go back to a Lloth sanctuary on home plane.

    Demiplane - To store Clones (a new Demiplane for every new Clone). Cast this from existing Demiplane as it takes an hour to close and privacy is needed.

    Wish - For Clone.

  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Conjure Celestial is a must take for Clerics,
    Bards (magical secrets), and Divine Souls is always on the list because it summons a Couatl (only CR4 PHB Celestial) and it's a huge bank of utility (not including the 3 spells it can cast at will, it can cast 22 spells, can turn into any humaniod or beast CR4 or less including getting their none class abilities, has constriction and poison attacks, flies, telepathy, knows every language, true sight, shield mind), Use Wish (Planar Binding to get it's service for year and a day) on the couatl

    If you just need pure fire power then Summon Fiend is great.

    Conjure Fey is thematic.

    Animate Dead and Create Undead are under rated for Bards, especially if you take True Polymorph as an regular Bard spell.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    I think the main ones have been mentioned, but I will throw in Wrathful Smite for valor bards.

    I tend to find that faerie fire is my go to level 1 bard spell so an alternative use for your most prolific type of spell slot that is a) powerful b) not a dex save c) scales well and d) single target vs area of effect is pretty strong. The concentration cost is high though, so it may depend on what other spells you are going for.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    We can try and make analogies that suit our story better (if you had a magical portfolio that can't decrease in value you can trade all the stock you want).

    The wording is very clear, once you trade to a new body your hit point maximum gets altered, all references the spell magic jar uses reference "your" stat block, you can trade maximum hitpoints all you want but once it's "yours" if you try and reduce it with a trade you're still trying to reduce it...

    Anyway, if you can explain how to get 3000 hitpoints without stacking the same magical effect I'm all ears.

    But it's hardly out of the scope of the wizard subclass power level,
    Illusionists have readied action malleable illusions to transform a dropped vine from your familiar on a restrained enemy and turn it into a 176,000lb cube of platinum.

    I'd say that even if you have 3000 hp you're going to be flattened into suffocation with no means of escape (gonna be hard to perform verbal and somatic components when pinned to the ground by over a hundred thousand lbs of platinum...

    Let's not derail the thread with the pedantics of "is swapping out a total with a lower one technically a reduction" it's a battle I've fought many times because rather than just say "no DM would actually allow this" (the proper answer) they try and argue that the word "reduced" means something other than "to make smaller"
    That assumes that your hit point maximum is the hit point maximum you possess at any moment. Your hit point maximum could also be the hit point maximum calculated from your stats, which is separate. I.E. Is your implying transient possession, or is your ownership of your original stats? Magic Jar never refers to the new body as yours-the statistics don't become yours, they replace yours. For that reason "Your hit point maximum" has been entirely replaced with something else, you don't own the new maximum.

    Anyway, specific trumps general. To go through the logic with something like Aid, General is-First, hit point maximums are absolute. Specific 1-Some feature reduces it Specific 2-This feature prevents reduction. Specific 3-This spell states that it increases hit point maximum (or changes it), then this maximum reverts at the end of the spell.

    The exact spell is more specific than your class feature. If it just generically reduced your hit point maximum, then it would be more general again-but because it reduces the hit point maximum it changed, it trumps again. Magic Jar works the same way.

    I can easily reach the low 400s with the method you are talking about by stacking Aid, Heroes Feast (re-roll until max), and finding a buddy Barbarian who maximized his hit points. This isn't getting into the possibility that some combination of necromancers could start trading bodies around with and argue that the magical effects on the hit point maximums are transient-I.E. That magic jar is giving them their buddies 230 hit points, which they then get Aided+Heroes feasted up to 280, which their other buddy takes and now has a 280 hit point maximum, which he can then cast Aid and Heroes feast on because he is a separate target and apparently hit point maximums aren't associated with their original owner, making the new maximum 330...

    And even if that does not work, I can guarantee a hit point maximum of 611, an probably a hit point maximum of 669. You use this trick on an ancient gold dragon in humanoid form, cast Aid using a 9th and Heroes feast (and keep casting until a 20 on heroes), then read a book of con +2 (assuming monster hit points are related to their CON * number of hit dice) which should give it 28 more, and have the Tough feat (which I believe you can still use) which adds +20. Not quite 3000, but still. I suppose in such a circumstance you could always do that and just try to keep the dragon, but this way has no vulnerability to being dispelled because it simply breaks the rules entirely.

    Basically, you're trying to make pun-pun, and it relies on extending a rule in a way that makes no sense and requires stretching the rules. As pun-pun always did.

    Also-if you've fought this battle many times, maybe you are wrong.
    Last edited by MrCharlie; 2020-11-25 at 05:13 AM.

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCharlie View Post
    That assumes that your hit point maximum is the hit point maximum you possess at any moment. Your hit point maximum could also be the hit point maximum calculated from your stats, which is separate. I.E. Is your implying transient possession, or is your ownership of your original stats? Magic Jar never refers to the new body as yours-the statistics don't become yours, they replace yours. For that reason "Your hit point maximum" has been entirely replaced with something else, you don't own the new maximum.

    Anyway, specific trumps general. To go through the logic with something like Aid, General is-First, hit point maximums are absolute. Specific 1-Some feature reduces it Specific 2-This feature prevents reduction. Specific 3-This spell states that it increases hit point maximum (or changes it), then this maximum reverts at the end of the spell.

    The exact spell is more specific than your class feature. If it just generically reduced your hit point maximum, then it would be more general again-but because it reduces the hit point maximum it changed, it trumps again. Magic Jar works the same way.

    I can easily reach the low 400s with the method you are talking about by stacking Aid, Heroes Feast (re-roll until max), and finding a buddy Barbarian who maximized his hit points. This isn't getting into the possibility that some combination of necromancers could start trading bodies around with and argue that the magical effects on the hit point maximums are transient-I.E. That magic jar is giving them their buddies 230 hit points, which they then get Aided+Heroes feasted up to 280, which their other buddy takes and now has a 280 hit point maximum, which he can then cast Aid and Heroes feast on because he is a separate target and apparently hit point maximums aren't associated with their original owner, making the new maximum 330...

    And even if that does not work, I can guarantee a hit point maximum of 611, an probably a hit point maximum of 669. You use this trick on an ancient gold dragon in humanoid form, cast Aid using a 9th and Heroes feast (and keep casting until a 20 on heroes), then read a book of con +2 (assuming monster hit points are related to their CON * number of hit dice) which should give it 28 more, and have the Tough feat (which I believe you can still use) which adds +20. Not quite 3000, but still. I suppose in such a circumstance you could always do that and just try to keep the dragon, but this way has no vulnerability to being dispelled because it simply breaks the rules entirely.

    Basically, you're trying to make pun-pun, and it relies on extending a rule in a way that makes no sense and requires stretching the rules. As pun-pun always did.

    Also-if you've fought this battle many times, maybe you are wrong.
    I've fought the battle many times because people have a specific idea in their heads of what constitutes "reduced" and rarely does removing a benefit fall in line with that preconceived notion.

    Coupled with the fact that this feature RAW boosts Necromancer power levels into something outside what they think is balanced and fair they reflexively defend what they perceive to be RAW because an error this egregious by the great WotC gods is sacrosanct. This is purely speculative though, I've come to grips with RAW being broken in so many examples that throwing another one onto the pile doesn't seem so bad. Maybe people just struggle with words...speaking of which!

    Magic Jar doesn't work with your Barbarian ally to get their maximum HP and is a fruitless endeavour: "If the target has any class levels, you canít use any of its class features." Hit dice that the Barbarian has are a direct consequence of its class features.
    0/1

    Additionally, if you are benefiting from the effect of an Aid spell or Heroes feast, even after transfering bodies, you can't benefit from it again as per the rules regarding stacking magical effects. The effect is still in place for you, regardless of what body you are inhabiting, ergo you cannot benefit from it again unless you replace it with a more powerful effect.
    0/2

    Even your tenuous assumptions on specific beats general are flawed. Care to point me to the paragraph that says hit point maximums are absolute? Seeing as their are features that both increase and reduce maximum hitpoints this is a categorically false statement. The Necromancer feature specifically says your HP maximum cannot be reduced, generally, when the Aid spell expires your maximum HP returns to normal, but in this case the necromancers class feature specifically states otherwise.

    You'd be right if Aid had a clause that said "these maximum hitpoints cannot, under any circumstances, be retained after the spell expires" (but it doesn't).
    0/3

    So now the only fall back you have is possessing the body of a creature that has a Charisma save of +16 and auto success on 3x saves a day. Oops it even succeeds on a saving throw roll of 1...(unless you have a robe of the Archmage...)

    I suppose if you get off a feeblemind and a dominate monster (8th level spell) this becomes more doable but even then, we're in level 15+ territory.

    Or did you think you could convince the dragon to let you possess it and hope that it trusts you enough to let you take the reigns on its body for what could be an indefinite amount of time? Actually, it wouldn't matter there either:
    "The target must make a Charisma saving throw."
    The dragon can't be convinced to fail either.
    0/4

    Congratulations, literally every premise and exploit you've put forth has been sabotaged by your own lack of diligence on the matter.

    All you had to do was possess a Warlord to get 300+ maximum hitpoints at level 11...

    As for tier 3 shenanigans; if a DM thinks it unlikely they can challenge a player with 300+ hitpoints then they are looking at the game through a very narrow lense. Death and dying stop being inhibitors to success as early as tier 2 (Reincarnation, Raise Dead, Revivify etc.)

    Having 300 max HP doesn't help you negotiate a hostage situation or stop you from being strength drained to death by CR 1/2 shadows..

    Dare I say, hitpoints are not the only thing a DM can challenge a player on...

    I'm sure you have much to say about this though; putting down the shovel is oft outside the natural proclivities of most...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I think the main ones have been mentioned, but I will throw in Wrathful Smite for valor bards.

    I tend to find that faerie fire is my go to level 1 bard spell so an alternative use for your most prolific type of spell slot that is a) powerful b) not a dex save c) scales well and d) single target vs area of effect is pretty strong. The concentration cost is high though, so it may depend on what other spells you are going for.
    I think that without Resillient: Con this one can be a hard sell. But requiring an action and a flat Wisdom CHECK to break free (which is now done at disadvantage from the fear) makes this a pretty decent pick.

    What would you pair with this? Shield?
    Last edited by TheUser; 2020-11-25 at 01:56 PM.

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    conjure animals
    counterspell
    May I borrow some bat guano? It's for a spell...

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Circle of power is always overlooked for some reason. If your party doesn't already have advantage on saves and magical effects this is the gold standard for MS IMO.
    Circle of Power is my favourite Magical Secrets pickup too!

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post


    I think that without Resillient: Con this one can be a hard sell. But requiring an action and a flat Wisdom CHECK to break free (which is now done at disadvantage from the fear) makes this a pretty decent pick.

    What would you pair with this? Shield?
    Probably counterspell as the other pick to be honest. If the campaign doesn't support a lot of casters then wall of force. They are classic picks for a reason. Actually, I went with spirit guardians as its more fun for me, but the others are more likely optimal.

    If someone does break concentration on you, it isn't the end of the world. It was a level 1 spell slot and you had a good chance to get a bit of bonus damage out of it as well.

    I used it with reach weapons before - now even easier as bugbears with extended on-turn reach might be allowed to take good bard stats and still use a shield. And failing that, mobility is always a fun feat (although I agree that resilient CON is a higher priority.

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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    Honestly I think Tashas mind whip could be a good pick for magical secrets, even if you are not lore bard. It offers excellent targettable control, doesn't require concentration and scales extremely well. Seems like exactly the kind of spell Bards lack in their toolkit, and it's a shame, I think, bard didn't just get it on their list.

    If you want to summon, but the conjure spells in php gives you or your DM a headache, I guess something like summon shadowspawn or celestial would be decent. Definetly not optimal picks though.

    Apart from these Tashas spells and what's already been mentioned in this thread, I think summon familiar and pass without a trace also deserves a mention. Most relevant for a lore bard perhaps, but I can see even other bards picking them, and not regretting it.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: What spells should I consider for bards magical secrets

    With Eldritch Adapt the spells Aid and Death Ward can now last 16 hours if you extend them which will probably be most adventuring days. Foresight once you reach 9th level spots can also be extended.

    You can also extend Summoning/Conjuration spells if that is what you decide on. Now they last 2 hours which can make a big difference in spending higher level spell slots.

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