What D&D world or setting would you choose to live in?

[Jason]

Star Trek. Replicators, advanced medical science, holodecks, no money required, chance to see the galaxy...

For D&D, Planescape. Or Spelljammer. If I get bored of Krynn I can hop a ship to another crystal sphere.

[Clistenes]

Hecht in Greatspace is supposed to be lovely. Relatively peaceful, too!

It is supposed to be peaceful and beautiful, but very rural. As in, primitive tribes ruled by Druids kind of rural... Don't expect many creature comforts... If you want milk, you need your own cow...

I do not want to imply that the question is somehow bad, but it looks for me like it's vague enough that different people are, in effect, answering different questions.

Really? I don't think it's so vague...

Level 1 character, your pick or race and class (player character races, you have to be level 1, remember, so no Ancient Wyrms or whatever), standard starting wealth for your class. You can choose the place, but you are an anonymous adventurer, not a duke or something like that...

It should be a D&D world/setting, I don't care the edition.

EDIT: The original post's wording may be somewhat confusing... I will edit it...

[Quertus]

So, D&D, 1st level, pick my race, I still choose my homebrew 2e world of Placia.For race/class...

Build:
a) deity, because it is a race, not a status. This would actually be really problematic, as there haven't been any new gods in... well, ever. So... unless I think this through very carefully, it's actually probably not a good idea.
b) otherwise... oh, Nelly, let's go with... Shapeshifter (Race) Advanced Shapeshifter (class) / Wizard / MtG Mage. Hooray non-human multiclassing rules!

Upsides: Trivial to get Quertus to (pawn me off to some high-level folk who will) help me power-level and keep me safe. Really easy for me to play most of that, probably easy enough to be most of that. No world-ending threats (unless I really **** things up). No level limit / racial level cap / anything like that to worry about. Reality is really stable (and the world will always remain 2e). Immortality is... not just an option, but kinda the default for my Shapeshifter race.

Downsides: Yeah, Placia kinda ran on Mindrape (or, well, Mindrape-light) decades before TSR/WotC/whoever invented that spell - I might not continue to be *me* (well, at least not *completely* me) if I attract attention without outside help. Like most D&D worlds, modern creature comforts would be non-trivial to acquire; however, Cantrip, Cure Disease, and Placia actually having a high tech rating make it not actually impossible to have a high standard of living - especially not if I count *myself* as a spell component for Mirage Arcana. It's 2e, so leveling is slow. Also, the random encounter tables absolutely do not take your level into consideration, so it can be extremely deadly for the unaware at 1st level. Cursed magic items are a thing. And there's plenty of war, and not much for me to Explore.

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For non-D&D worlds, I still choose the homebrew system of Paradox (think Rifts, but good); specifically, I suppose I'll choose the Not!Earth setting where one of my PCs settled down, as the created construct of the mages from Not!D&D who evacuated to and settled there.

Build: Construct Wizard.

Upsides: Racially immortal. Modern(ish) Earth, plenty of creature comforts. With my "mastery" of the system and metagame knowledge, I should have no trouble, even as a starting character, as I had no trouble as *me*.

Downsides: Not!Rift travel is permanently soul-scarring - I'll avoid any of the Not!Namesake activities like the plague. Also, modern(ish) Earth - I can look forward to all-too-human stupidity unless I do something about it.

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For "Published" D&D world, I think I'll stretch the definitions a bit (a lot), and choose the Forgotten Realms as presented in The Open Door. Those Realms can clearly accept "(WH40K) Demon" as race, and Wild Mage is looking to be an absolutely *amazing* class in that setting.

Build: (WH40K) Demon Wild Mage former human former Cleric of Larskuld

Upsides: Probably the most potential for creature comforts from a published D&D world. Probably the most potential for killing off the gods & replacing them with something worthwhile from a published D&D world.

Downsides: D&D lack of creature comforts, very war-torn, 2e slow leveling, uncertain how long I have before 4e hits in the new timeline, and I'm not sure how to work "Cleric of Larskuld" into my build Actually, I can cheat it in with human dual-classing, declaring myself to have just duel-classed to "1st level" as Wild Mage, and say that this happened as a human, before I became a demon.

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For published non-D&D world... this one's tricky. Ultimately, I'm going Marvel, I just might be starting in DC.

Build:
a) In Marvel FACERIP, you can begin play by simply picking an existing character to use as your PC. Maybe Eternity?
b) I'm not sure about the system for playing in DC, but some alternate-reality Kryptonian (ie, who isn't vulnerable to Kryptonite) sounds like a good starting race (although my first thought was to be a Flash).

Plan: I want to start back in time (EDIT: or travel back in time, as necessary), where I can (travel to Marvel as necessary and) take the Quantum Bands before Quasar tries them on. Using those, plus whatever power I can start with, plus my metagame knowledge, my plan is to collect the infinity stones, cosmic cubes (safely housed in (something based on) time-scryed Magus containment device), etc etc.

Upsides: Starting characters are gonzo. McGuffins are gonzo. Metagame knowledge is gonzo. And it's Earth... plus infinite anything to explore.

Downsides: Without my crazy power-grab plans, there is no real security to speak of in a Marvel universe - Cosmic beings and world-ending threats are just another day at the office.

-----

Conclusion: The only one of these where I'm not trying to go for absolutely crazy amounts of power ASAP is Paradox, where I'm starting on Earth, as something almost certain to outlive humanity, with mad amounts of (metagame) power already.

Can you blame me?

[Jorren]

Ravenloft, of course.

[noob]

Ravenloft, of course.

Some people analysed it as being surprisingly safe relatively to more known settings.
If you just do your commoner job the odds of death are not very high.

[Jason]

Some people analysed it as being surprisingly safe relatively to more known settings.
If you just do your commoner job the odds of death are not very high.

But if you're a PC class and you want to do more than just be a farmer then you're probably not very safe.

[Lord Torath]

Hecht in Greatspace is supposed to be lovely. Relatively peaceful, too!

It is supposed to be peaceful and beautiful, but very rural. As in, primitive tribes ruled by Druids kind of rural... Don't expect many creature comforts... If you want milk, you need your own cow...

True. But it will be a beautiful cow, and your neighbors will all be beautiful, too! I'm sure there's a lovely tropical beach I could live at. And if I ever need any money, I can just clean out the guild showers scrub the barnacles off the bottom of my skiff.

[Quertus]

To answer in the spirit that I believe the question was asked, of what world would be best for the average "adventurer":

2e Placia is out, because leveling is 2e slow, it's not "level appropriate", and your reward for attracting attention (in the "best" timeframe) is Mindrape.

Marvel is out (and probably DC is, too) because world-ending threats are just another day at the office.

So my revised "spirited" list looks like:

2e Placia -> Everday
Paradox (Not!Rifts) Not!Earth
Forgotten Realms as presented in The Open Door
Marvel(/DC) -> Harry Potter

Everday offers a highly-stable, low-level-adventurer friendly environment, devoid of most of the most horrific monsters and world-ending threats. Creature comforts... could be better on the whole, although several cities have enough "industrialized magic" and/or "specifically/magically-bred creatures" to meet or beat modern Earth in many ways.

Harry Potter offers all the comforts of modern Earth, with little to worry about besides date-rape drugs being considered standard courting procedure, and child safety being an oxymoron.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If I'm trying to live a peaceful, ordinary life, none of them. The qualities that make them good adventuring settings also make them unsuitable for quiet peaceful lives on average. Plus a decided lack of internet capability in most D&D worlds.

If I'm trying to be an adventurer and go on grand adventures, well, not the FR. Too inconsistent, too many world-ending threats on a daily basis, plus all the superheroes OP NPCs running around. Don't like the aesthetic (or the grey-on-grey morality) of Eberron. Arthas is right out. Don't know enough about most of the others.

So I'd have to say my own setting, Dawn of Hope. There are parts I'd love to explore in person, and there's a decided lack of world-ending threats or OP NPCs. Stable enough, but yet exciting enough. Still lots of nasty parts though. Of course I'm biased.

[Telok]

Ok, got it. The Rock of Bral from Spelljammer. It's a reasonably large, civilized, self-sufficient, trading town/small city in a convenient but unspecified crystal sphere. No major disasters, no world ending threats, no random plot screw-ups. You can get just about anywhere from there and find almost anything (or at least where to get it).

[Lord Torath]

Ok, got it. The Rock of Bral from Spelljammer. It's a reasonably large, civilized, self-sufficient, trading town/small city in a convenient but unspecified crystal sphere. No major disasters, no world ending threats, no random plot screw-ups. You can get just about anywhere from there and find almost anything (or at least where to get it).

There was that Jihad by the Thri-Kreen Empire that one time, though...

[Amdy_vill]

Terra as a level 1 wizard. if you don't know Terra is a crystal sphere in Spelljammer witch is just earth but in the dnd universe. it's like the 1600s-1700s so the industrial revolution is knocking on the door and a wizard shows up with knowledge of the future.

[Quertus]

So I'd have to say my own setting, Dawn of Hope. There are parts I'd love to explore in person, and there's a decided lack of world-ending threats or OP NPCs. Stable enough, but yet exciting enough. Still lots of nasty parts though. Of course I'm biased.

Edition(s)? Draw?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Edition(s)? Draw?

5e. Originally 4e, but that didn't last long before I (working through the players) blew up the world and remade it for 5e. Including killing off all the gods (something I'm sure you're in favor of). The new ones aren't really gods as much as the middle-management for the universe.

For me, the big thing about it is an attempt to do kitchen sink...right. And coherently. I want to find a place for everything (that I can). For the players, the big draw is that it's a living world. The things the players do stick around for other campaigns. Including things I wouldn't have thought of.

A few key differences from "normal" settings:
* Very different planar structure. Sort of World Axis meets blender, with most of the planes squashed into a few: Mortal (not material), Shadow (a combination of astral, ethereal, feywild, and shadowfell, plus the afterlife), Astral (home of gods and devils, as well as sundry other things), 12 elemental planes (basically elements + quasi-elements, one for each month), and abyssal (a prison dimension). None of these are infinite. In fact, they're all no larger than the inner solar system (4 AU in radius).
* Something you wouldn't like: no inter-setting travel. The setting is cut off from the rest of the multiverse by a crystal shell. Different from others, this one prevents all travel in or out. And beyond it is the Dark Beyond (basically the Far Realms); all the other settings are across an infinite conceptual distance through a realm of pure thought. Filled with nasty things like memetic, parasitic thoughts.
* No alignment. For anyone. Gods, devils, angels, no one. Instead, the differences are by source of energy.
* No super-long-lived humanoid races. Gwerin (high elves) hit 200 at most, and they're the longest-lived.
* Dwarves are Mongolian, not Scottish. And dwarf women have beards. And dwarves, goliaths, and giants are all basically related.
* Most of the races are artificial--halflings only date about 600 years, and kobolds have been around like 50.
* There aren't 3 goblin species, there's only one. Goblins, with hobgoblins and bugbears being temporary "mutations".

I don't do world-shaking threats. I've got some places I'd love to have players go so I can figure out what exactly is there, but no one has so far.

[thorr-kan]

Just because it hasn't been said yet.

Al-Qadim - the land of Fate and 1001 Arabian nights. It was a standalone setting from 2nd ed. Fate is a powerful concept, one of the mage types has a genie familiar. Others are based on the 4 classical elements. It wasn't quite as war torn as Dragonlance, FR, and Greyhawk. The settings of Arabian Nights is interesting, but it is very seeped in Arabic culture. Think Agraba from Disney's Aladdin with roving bandit gangs of Ali-baba and his 40 thieves.

Ah, yah beat me to it.

Al-Qadim and Zakhara all the way for a D&D world. Continent-spanning common culture, even though there are regional differences. Major cities are fairly stable. Gods are distant and don't walk among you. It's an autocratic monarchy, but the monarchy's been stable for centuries.

First-level thief (merchant-rogue). Half-elf. Money to make and time to learn it.

Otherwise, Star Trek.

[EccentricCircle]

Planescape and Spelljammer both have advantages. As very cosmopolitan settings they have a good chance for quality of life. However both also have their perils. Eberron is a good pick, its both relatively high tech, and perhaps more importantly socially progressive if you pick the right country. Most other settings are very much in medieval stasis, even if they shouldn't be.

I don't agree thwt ravenloft is safe for peasants. Depending on the domain you might be turned into undead at the whim of the dark lord. You could be enslaved by vampires, illithids or worse. In any domain you are cowering in your hovel in a state of perpetual dread. Most people only know Ravenloft from Barovia, which is honestly one of the least terrible domains, and even that is pretty grim.

If I had to pick one down to earth setting. Probably Al Qadim. It's civilised, tolerant, has good living conditions for a fantasy world and has room for people who aren't adventurous to live normal lives. So long as someone in faerun doesn't kill the wrong god and blow up the whole planet, then its basically free of metaplot catastrophes. All in all a nice place to live. It's maybe nit as nice as eberron, but has far fewr things trying to eat your soul or open portals to dark dimensions releasing cosmic horors frkm the dawn of time. So it just wins out.

[Eldan]

Level 1 character, your pick or race and class (player character races, you have to be level 1, remember, so no Ancient Wyrms or whatever), standard starting wealth for your class. You can choose the place, but you are an anonymous adventurer, not a duke or something like that...

It should be a D&D world/setting, I don't care the edition.

THat's why we're saying Council of Wyrms, though. In the Council of Wyrms setting, all the PCs are full dragons.

[GrayDeath]

To answer in the spirit that I believe the question was asked, of what world would be best for the average "adventurer":

So my revised "spirited" list looks like:

2e Placia -> Everday
Paradox (Not!Rifts) Not!Earth
Forgotten Realms as presented in The Open Door
Marvel(/DC) -> Harry Potter

I am really pleased that you liked the story enough to already be using its setting.

Many people I shoiowed it to agreed that the author was bashing "the Good Setting Forces of X" too much.

To which I say, explain any form of the Prime Directive as prime Directive that does not translate into "a little change in a species is horible...but it dying out anturally, who cares?"


Anyway, coming back to the OP, since it was clarified one could choose class/XP etc, I would be an adult Silver Dragon with some low teens in Sorcerer and 2-3 levels in 2-3 classes I simply like the feel/fluff of.

Cause you dont need to optimize as a Dragon in Eberron with guaranteed nigh Immortality on top. ^^

[noob]

I am really pleased that you liked the story enough to already be using its setting.

Many people I shoiowed it to agreed that the author was bashing "the Good Setting Forces of X" too much.

To which I say, explain any form of the Prime Directive as prime Directive that does not translate into "a little change in a species is horible...but it dying out anturally, who cares?"


Anyway, coming back to the OP, since it was clarified one could choose class/XP etc, I would be an adult Silver Dragon with some low teens in Sorcerer and 2-3 levels in 2-3 classes I simply like the feel/fluff of.

Cause you dont need to optimize as a Dragon in Eberron with guaranteed nigh Immortality on top. ^^

The first poster clearly posted that you had only one class level.
As for the race is it a valid starting one for a player race of that setting?
If yes then it is fine.

[GrayDeath]

Then he changed it again after the first undefined post, I am quite sure I remember a "Race and Class of your choice".

And depending on WHAT you paly adventurewise,, in Eberron (or more clearly on Argonessen) playing Dragions (Council of Wyrms) is a Go.

So I have to wait with more levels, hmmm, retooling it to mature Adult Silver Dragon (I want to have a lot of time to grow as well^^), and a Level of....Artificer.

Cause Sorcerer is built in any way.

[Quertus]

I am really pleased that you liked the story enough to already be using its setting.

Anyway, coming back to the OP, since it was clarified one could choose class/XP etc, I would be an adult Silver Dragon with some low teens in Sorcerer and 2-3 levels in 2-3 classes I simply like the feel/fluff of.

Cause you dont need to optimize as a Dragon in Eberron with guaranteed nigh Immortality on top. ^^

I have no such issues with the story - had it attacked the "good guys" unfairly, and then held up, say, Drow society as the paragon of perfection, then I would have had a problem with it.

Speaking of Dragons (and this is for anyone)... Eberron (vs?) Council of Wyrms? What do dragons do in this/these settings?

For Eberron in particular, has a Dragon ever sought godhood?

5e. Originally 4e, but that didn't last long before I (working through the players) blew up the world and remade it for 5e.

So, Teleport Through Time (if it somehow existed in 5e), do you go back to 4e? Was the filling replaced inside the candy shell, or was the whole construct scrapped and rebuilt?

Including killing off all the gods (something I'm sure you're in favor of).

Indeed. Thanks for the laugh!

The new ones aren't really gods as much as the middle-management for the universe.

Mechanically, they're...? (functionally, they're presumably still responsible for whatever is "wrong" with the setting though, right?)

* Something you wouldn't like: no inter-setting travel. The setting is cut off from the rest of the multiverse by a crystal shell. Different from others, this one prevents all travel in or out.

So, as much as you may want to explore there, even if "going to other worlds/settings" is somehow possible, you obviously can't go there? So your choice is invalid?

* No alignment. For anyone. Gods, devils, angels, no one. Instead, the differences are by source of energy.

Also something I like.

I don't do world-shaking threats.

So... safe, because the GM says so?

For the players, the big draw is that it's a living world. The things the players do stick around for other campaigns. Including things I wouldn't have thought of.

Shouldn't that be true of any world (at least from the perspective of those who live there, which is what we're discussing)?

Although that's a lot of cool stuff about why the players would be interested in the world (and I agree, if it were an open world, I would love to have PC(s) go there), what I actually meant was, what is the draw for you (or for "generic adventurer") to pick this world over another to live there. No world-shaking threats is definitely an answer to that question. But, for example, is there any other reason why I should expect adventurers there to generally fare better than in Everday (which is arguably a world-shaking-event-free kitchen sink with some of the nastiest things removed)?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Spoiler: Long reply to Quertus

Show

So, Teleport Through Time (if it somehow existed in 5e), do you go back to 4e? Was the filling replaced inside the candy shell, or was the whole construct scrapped and rebuilt?

The world itself is independent of the edition--mechanics are not physics. Before the Cataclysm, magic was different. That's true. But really, I've reshaped the entire thing from the ground up since then--a few events have carried over, but the reasons/metaphysics behind them has grown beyond recognition. Which is just as well. When it started, it was Points of Light with the serial numbers filed off and a rough map. Now, well, I'm at something like 300 articles, with ~400 that I know of to write. And that's only a tiny fraction of the world.

So if time travel (in that sense) were truly possible[1], you'd get something that likely would fit 5e's mechanics better than 4e's, but the magic wouldn't fit quite as well. So yes. And no. And something else entirely.

Indeed. Thanks for the laugh!

I figured you'd like that. Basically the Great Mechanism that actually runs the universe (although more like a machine than a person) cut them off from their power to preserve that power to keep the whole planar structure from going wrong.

Mechanically, they're...? (functionally, they're presumably still responsible for whatever is "wrong" with the setting though, right?)

The 16 true gods exist to direct pieces of the power streams flowing through the Great Mechanism towards mortals when they pray. They're ascended mortals, many of whom did not choose that. 3 of them (magic, unnatural death, and practical jokes) are the three former adventurers who broke the world. They're paying for their decision. Gods are both more limited and more powerful than mortals. More powerful--they cannot be killed and within their narrow domains have nearly omnipotent power...under severe limits. They can't interact directly with mortals. They have to act through clerics and other agents, and even their more significant agents are sharply limited in the Mortal world. The Great Mechanism is keeping a tight leash on them this time around. They can answer questions, but only obliquely and imperfectly. They're not significantly more intelligent than others--they're basically mortals with really important jobs. And while they do those jobs, they won't die. They don't rely on worship--in fact, they really don't care. As long as they answer prayers and act as the metaphysical complaint department in their particular domains, they stay in power.

There are many other "ascended" beings of lesser power but greater freedom. Some of those depend on worship, but that worship also shapes them. So you can be a "godling", but what your followers believe about you will alter who you are.

And before you ask, no, none of them are responsible for any kind of eternal afterlife. There isn't one. All souls, after death, enter Shadow. There they live again, taking bodies of shadow-stuff and acting. Until eventually they can no longer do so (for many reasons) and fade away. Where does the Spark, the self go after that? No one, not even the gods know. And that's a question I won't answer, not even for myself.

So, as much as you may want to explore there, even if "going to other worlds/settings" is somehow possible, you obviously can't go there? So your choice is invalid?

It's possible to leave the sphere. Re-entering it means that you'll be hunted by the angels. Because that's (part of) their purpose, to destroy anything coming in from the Beyond. Because out there is the Awakener, which desires the end of everything.

Also something I like.

Yeah. In-universe, the big shift from pre-cataclysm to post-cataclysm was in part due to binding Change/Chaos into the world as Choice. Everyone and everything has free will. Sure, you're unlikely to find a good demon (since they consume souls to live). But it's not impossible. And many of them aren't horrible and will work with others. One of the Princes, in fact, has a long-running goal to close the Oblivion Gate and heal the Abyss. He's the ur-lich, the one who discovered and perfected the ritual.

So... safe, because the GM says so?

Isn't that the way of all settings?

Shouldn't that be true of any world (at least from the perspective of those who live there, which is what we're discussing)?

Although that's a lot of cool stuff about why the players would be interested in the world (and I agree, if it were an open world, I would love to have PC(s) go there), what I actually meant was, what is the draw for you (or for "generic adventurer") to pick this world over another to live there. No world-shaking threats is definitely an answer to that question. But, for example, is there any other reason why I should expect adventurers there to generally fare better than in Everday (which is arguably a world-shaking-event-free kitchen sink with some of the nastiest things removed)?

For me personally, there are many places there which I've sketched out and want to see what's really there. Because that, for me, is the core of why I play D&D. To find out what's really there over the next hill. Despite all my designs and plans, I won't really know until I go there. Either vicariously through players' eyes or (in a fantasy) through my own. Nothing I write is canon for the world until it appears in a game. And every time I go somewhere new (in a game), I discover parts of the world that I didn't consciously put there but that arise unprompted out of interactions with the players. I see things through their eyes that make me stop and wonder at the world that is unveiled before us.

For a generic adventurer, because adventurers on Quartus (yes, that's one vowel off) are special...well...the ones that survive and gain strength. Ie the ones from whose number we pull PCs. For most people there's a pretty sharp fall-off in "onset of diminishing returns to practice". A plateau-effect in power gains. For most people, that's below 1st level (5e-equivalent). For a super-vast majority (>75%), that's below 5th level. Adventurers (successful ones anyway) are always at least in that upper tier. And special ones have unknown limits. So a successful adventurer can quickly rise to become a mover and shaker. Even 5th level puts you in the top echelon. Plus, there's always things to do, places to go, places where your mark can be set on the world. It's a young world, reborn after fire and destruction. Not hedged up with nations and established Powers.

For a more generic person, it's generally pretty peaceful and prosperous. Sure, you won't have modern tech. That's an aesthetic thing. But none of the nations (of the main area I've developed) are at war. A few of the lords are obnoxious, but only obnoxious. Monsters generally don't threaten the heartlands very often--the Registered Companies do a pretty good job of preventing that. And there's a place for everyone. Don't want to worship the gods? Don't go to the Holy Kaelthian Republic. But Byssia will welcome you--most of them don't worship them either (would you worship the Second Assistant Undersecretary for Paper Cutting?). Want to engage in commerce and get wealthy? Rauviz City is probably your best bet (in western Noefra anyway). Etc.

Now it's not a utopia. There's darkness and corruption in all things to a greater or lesser degree, and the poor male halflings have it pretty bad. But adventuring is a sanctioned "out" in all societies--once you're claimed by a Registered Company, the bounds of cultural obligation can no longer be enforced. You're still under the laws of the land, but they can't drag you back to a forced marriage (etc).

[1] forward time travel is possible. Just (have someone else) detonate a Concept Bomb and you'll end up somewhen (and possibly somewhere) else. Control is, well, uncertain. And surviving might be difficult--most mortals need things like causality to function. And the whole point of a concept bomb is that it unleashes the influence of a Broken Concept. Instead of order, you get stasis. Instead of memory, you get amnesia. Instead of causality, you get, well, random connections between space and time and a decided lack of anything like linear cause and effect. Don't detonate it yourself, as that takes a sacrifice. Willing is better.

[Quertus]

Spoiler: Long reply to Quertus

Show

The world itself is independent of the edition--mechanics are not physics. Before the Cataclysm, magic was different. That's true. But really, I've reshaped the entire thing from the ground up since then--a few events have carried over, but the reasons/metaphysics behind them has grown beyond recognition. Which is just as well. When it started, it was Points of Light with the serial numbers filed off and a rough map. Now, well, I'm at something like 300 articles, with ~400 that I know of to write. And that's only a tiny fraction of the world.

So if time travel (in that sense) were truly possible[1], you'd get something that likely would fit 5e's mechanics better than 4e's, but the magic wouldn't fit quite as well. So yes. And no. And something else entirely.



I figured you'd like that. Basically the Great Mechanism that actually runs the universe (although more like a machine than a person) cut them off from their power to preserve that power to keep the whole planar structure from going wrong.



The 16 true gods exist to direct pieces of the power streams flowing through the Great Mechanism towards mortals when they pray. They're ascended mortals, many of whom did not choose that. 3 of them (magic, unnatural death, and practical jokes) are the three former adventurers who broke the world. They're paying for their decision. Gods are both more limited and more powerful than mortals. More powerful--they cannot be killed and within their narrow domains have nearly omnipotent power...under severe limits. They can't interact directly with mortals. They have to act through clerics and other agents, and even their more significant agents are sharply limited in the Mortal world. The Great Mechanism is keeping a tight leash on them this time around. They can answer questions, but only obliquely and imperfectly. They're not significantly more intelligent than others--they're basically mortals with really important jobs. And while they do those jobs, they won't die. They don't rely on worship--in fact, they really don't care. As long as they answer prayers and act as the metaphysical complaint department in their particular domains, they stay in power.

There are many other "ascended" beings of lesser power but greater freedom. Some of those depend on worship, but that worship also shapes them. So you can be a "godling", but what your followers believe about you will alter who you are.

And before you ask, no, none of them are responsible for any kind of eternal afterlife. There isn't one. All souls, after death, enter Shadow. There they live again, taking bodies of shadow-stuff and acting. Until eventually they can no longer do so (for many reasons) and fade away. Where does the Spark, the self go after that? No one, not even the gods know. And that's a question I won't answer, not even for myself.



It's possible to leave the sphere. Re-entering it means that you'll be hunted by the angels. Because that's (part of) their purpose, to destroy anything coming in from the Beyond. Because out there is the Awakener, which desires the end of everything.



Yeah. In-universe, the big shift from pre-cataclysm to post-cataclysm was in part due to binding Change/Chaos into the world as Choice. Everyone and everything has free will. Sure, you're unlikely to find a good demon (since they consume souls to live). But it's not impossible. And many of them aren't horrible and will work with others. One of the Princes, in fact, has a long-running goal to close the Oblivion Gate and heal the Abyss. He's the ur-lich, the one who discovered and perfected the ritual.



Isn't that the way of all settings?



For me personally, there are many places there which I've sketched out and want to see what's really there. Because that, for me, is the core of why I play D&D. To find out what's really there over the next hill. Despite all my designs and plans, I won't really know until I go there. Either vicariously through players' eyes or (in a fantasy) through my own. Nothing I write is canon for the world until it appears in a game. And every time I go somewhere new (in a game), I discover parts of the world that I didn't consciously put there but that arise unprompted out of interactions with the players. I see things through their eyes that make me stop and wonder at the world that is unveiled before us.

For a generic adventurer, because adventurers on Quartus (yes, that's one vowel off) are special...well...the ones that survive and gain strength. Ie the ones from whose number we pull PCs. For most people there's a pretty sharp fall-off in "onset of diminishing returns to practice". A plateau-effect in power gains. For most people, that's below 1st level (5e-equivalent). For a super-vast majority (>75%), that's below 5th level. Adventurers (successful ones anyway) are always at least in that upper tier. And special ones have unknown limits. So a successful adventurer can quickly rise to become a mover and shaker. Even 5th level puts you in the top echelon. Plus, there's always things to do, places to go, places where your mark can be set on the world. It's a young world, reborn after fire and destruction. Not hedged up with nations and established Powers.

For a more generic person, it's generally pretty peaceful and prosperous. Sure, you won't have modern tech. That's an aesthetic thing. But none of the nations (of the main area I've developed) are at war. A few of the lords are obnoxious, but only obnoxious. Monsters generally don't threaten the heartlands very often--the Registered Companies do a pretty good job of preventing that. And there's a place for everyone. Don't want to worship the gods? Don't go to the Holy Kaelthian Republic. But Byssia will welcome you--most of them don't worship them either (would you worship the Second Assistant Undersecretary for Paper Cutting?). Want to engage in commerce and get wealthy? Rauviz City is probably your best bet (in western Noefra anyway). Etc.

Now it's not a utopia. There's darkness and corruption in all things to a greater or lesser degree, and the poor male halflings have it pretty bad. But adventuring is a sanctioned "out" in all societies--once you're claimed by a Registered Company, the bounds of cultural obligation can no longer be enforced. You're still under the laws of the land, but they can't drag you back to a forced marriage (etc).

[1] forward time travel is possible. Just (have someone else) detonate a Concept Bomb and you'll end up somewhen (and possibly somewhere) else. Control is, well, uncertain. And surviving might be difficult--most mortals need things like causality to function. And the whole point of a concept bomb is that it unleashes the influence of a Broken Concept. Instead of order, you get stasis. Instead of memory, you get amnesia. Instead of causality, you get, well, random connections between space and time and a decided lack of anything like linear cause and effect. Don't detonate it yourself, as that takes a sacrifice. Willing is better.

Oh, good call.

Spoiler: More back and forth

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The world itself is independent of the edition--mechanics are not physics.

Yes and no. Before setting-specific rules (which Placia and Everday both have plenty; not knowing 5e, I'm guessing Dawn of Hope Quartus does, as well), I expect 3e to have Teleport Through Time, stat-dependent save DCs, and "I'm an ancient dragon makes gaining XP / learning more as a Monk 1 harder than a human Monk 1". Whereas I expect 2e to have cool Wild Mages, static save DCs, duel- vs multi-class, etc. And I expect these to be actually noticeable at the physics level. And 4e to have a distinct pecking order, and if you aren't the absolute best in the group at a task, you'd best not try to help (actually, as annoyed as I get at some people "helping", I could probably stand (that part of) living in a 4e world - I just can't stand playing the game). Or 5e to have adventurers that still run from small bands or orcs at epic levels, and prefer to hire armies to shoot down dragons than to do so themselves.

I expect which edition you're in to affect how powerful a caster needs to be in order to craft items (Invisibility is still beyond you, but you can craft scrolls?), or whether being able to craft X is in any way related to the ability to craft Y.

Quertus (my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named) explicitly studies the strange sets of similarities between the underlying laws of magic on various worlds. Among other things that he studies.

It's possible to leave the sphere. Re-entering it means that you'll be hunted by the angels. Because that's (part of) their purpose, to destroy anything coming in from the Beyond. Because out there is the Awakener, which desires the end of everything.

That doesn't sound like a closed setting to me.

So, if you showed up in your setting, being from outside, you'd be hounded by angels? And you'd still want to go there?

Isn't that the way of all settings?

Well, no. Just like an action can succeed or fail based on mechanics, the needs of the story, pacing, or any number of other reasons, the why of a world's stability (or lack thereof) need not be based on "because the GM says so".

For example, Placia is inordinately stable (sort of) because the mechanics of the world enforce that stability. Placia is actually caught in a time loop, repeating its circular history forever. The details may change, but the general course of history is inexorable. Quertus has gently poked at it - enough to decide that he doesn't care to even attempt to see if it can be changed, and certainly doesn't care to gain the attention of any hypothetical being(s) capable of having set such a thing in motion. Adventurers can make amazing changes, and, from their perspective, everything will appear to run on mechanics and be as mutable as one would expect given those mechanics, but they cannot truly derail the "million year plan" of the world, any more than cavemen could have prevented the Ice Age, or the formation of the asteroid belt.

Now, Placia could be caught in a time loop "because I say so", or because of actions that some of my players took, or because the plot demands it, or... etc etc. But Placia is stable (in the grand scheme) because the mechanics say so.

Placia is always 2e because I say so (not that I expect the mechanics to ever disagree). Magic on Placia behaves in very stable ways because the mechanics say so. Multiclassing / Racial level limits are so "forgiving" / open / whatever because of a mix of "because I say so" and because the races are fundamentally / mechanically / "physics"-ly / psychologically different from default. The "current" timeline is the way it is largely because of actions that the PCs have taken.

All of these things have different root causes I can point to; they aren't all simply "because I say so".

For me personally, there are many places there which I've sketched out and want to see what's really there.

Well, fair enough. Getting to Explore your setting could certainly be a big draw. I can probably appreciate that better than most. I could Explore Everday, but Placia... too much of what I would care about is known (at least, to me). (to use my classic example, if there's floating rocks, I already know why they are floating, and wouldn't be inspired to invent something new based on some cool new reveal.) Also, most of it isn't what I would consider "pretty" - I would not, personally, enjoy the aesthetics of most of Placia (not the flora/fauna, not the geography, not the architecture, not the clothing styles, not even most of the art).

5e

For most people there's a pretty sharp fall-off in "onset of diminishing returns to practice". A plateau-effect in power gains. For most people, that's below 1st level (5e-equivalent). For a super-vast majority (>75%), that's below 5th level. Adventurers (successful ones anyway) are always at least in that upper tier.

I'm not sure if "most adventurers never become successful", "most adventurers cannot learn their way past 5th level", and "it's 5e - levels don't matter (you'll still get crushed by orcs)" really make the "Dawn of Hope" setting sound terribly appealing to the average adventurer. A draw for playing there as a PC maybe, but not for living there as an adventurer.

If my soul knew that it wanted to be an adventurer, and got to pick which world to incarnate into, that description certainly sounds like a turn-off to me.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Spoiler: Response

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Spoiler: More back and forth

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Yes and no. Before setting-specific rules (which Placia and Everday both have plenty; not knowing 5e, I'm guessing Dawn of Hope Quartus does, as well), I expect 3e to have Teleport Through Time, stat-dependent save DCs, and "I'm an ancient dragon makes gaining XP / learning more as a Monk 1 harder than a human Monk 1". Whereas I expect 2e to have cool Wild Mages, static save DCs, duel- vs multi-class, etc. And I expect these to be actually noticeable at the physics level. And 4e to have a distinct pecking order, and if you aren't the absolute best in the group at a task, you'd best not try to help (actually, as annoyed as I get at some people "helping", I could probably stand (that part of) living in a 4e world - I just can't stand playing the game). Or 5e to have adventurers that still run from small bands or orcs at epic levels, and prefer to hire armies to shoot down dragons than to do so themselves.

I expect which edition you're in to affect how powerful a caster needs to be in order to craft items (Invisibility is still beyond you, but you can craft scrolls?), or whether being able to craft X is in any way related to the ability to craft Y.

Quertus (my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named) explicitly studies the strange sets of similarities between the underlying laws of magic on various worlds. Among other things that he studies.

Spoiler: More back and forth

Show

One of the things I've tried to do is craft the setting to explain the mechanics. So in one way, yes. But in another, no. At most, the two are consistent. But it was never a very good 4e setting--due to the constraints I'd already houseruled the heck out of the system entirely. So if I had to say, it's much more 5e than 4e.

And the idea of "levels" and "multiclassing" and all that is an entirely meta thing. PC classes are convenient bundles for game purposes, not reified things. 90+% of the priests you meet aren't clerics. Some people can cast 5th level spells...without being able to cast anything else. Crafting magic items is non-trivial--that was one of the things that was lost and changed in the Cataclysm and the rebirth of magic. Lots of people break "the rules" all the time. Because the rules are the UI for the game. Nothing more, nothing less. They're a translation layer to help us, in our reality, play a game in that reality. To translate actions here to actions there and vice versa. The real physics are much different. The two are consistent with each other (most of the time anyway), but the rules do not dictate. The underlying physics of the setting do. When the two are in conflict, the game gives way.

That doesn't sound like a closed setting to me.

So, if you showed up in your setting, being from outside, you'd be hounded by angels? And you'd still want to go there?

I'd assume I was born there, merely with my own knowledge. There's precedent for that--the barrier is not impermeable. But one major barrier to actual travel is that, unlike most other settings, there is no planar connection between Dreams of Hope (the planet is Quartus, the whole setting is Dreams of Hope) and any other realm. The planes stop cold at the barrier. Outside is the Far Realms...except I treat it differently. It's a self-aware, dreaming conceptual space. No spell or ship will help you there, you shape "reality" by your self-will but can be unshaped by the will of others. And physical form does not exist as such. Only thoughts. The "dreams" part comes because my multiverse theory is that all the realms, everywhere, are but dreams. Dreams of entities native to that Dreaming Dark, who themselves are dreams of the Dark itself. So the "canon" multiverse exists somewhere out there, the work of one or more Dreamers. But there are also things out there that want to awaken all the dreams. One of them is the Awakener, a Borg-like memetic virus that infects worlds and converts them into more of it, before reducing them to nothingness.

Well, no. Just like an action can succeed or fail based on mechanics, the needs of the story, pacing, or any number of other reasons, the why of a world's stability (or lack thereof) need not be based on "because the GM says so".

For example, Placia is inordinately stable (sort of) because the mechanics of the world enforce that stability. Placia is actually caught in a time loop, repeating its circular history forever. The details may change, but the general course of history is inexorable. Quertus has gently poked at it - enough to decide that he doesn't care to even attempt to see if it can be changed, and certainly doesn't care to gain the attention of any hypothetical being(s) capable of having set such a thing in motion. Adventurers can make amazing changes, and, from their perspective, everything will appear to run on mechanics and be as mutable as one would expect given those mechanics, but they cannot truly derail the "million year plan" of the world, any more than cavemen could have prevented the Ice Age, or the formation of the asteroid belt.

Now, Placia could be caught in a time loop "because I say so", or because of actions that some of my players took, or because the plot demands it, or... etc etc. But Placia is stable (in the grand scheme) because the mechanics say so.

Placia is always 2e because I say so (not that I expect the mechanics to ever disagree). Magic on Placia behaves in very stable ways because the mechanics say so. Multiclassing / Racial level limits are so "forgiving" / open / whatever because of a mix of "because I say so" and because the races are fundamentally / mechanically / "physics"-ly / psychologically different from default. The "current" timeline is the way it is largely because of actions that the PCs have taken.

All of these things have different root causes I can point to; they aren't all simply "because I say so".

But they are because you said so. Those underlying mechanics are your choice. It's the exact same problem I have with people who disclaim DM fiat or who espouse My Guy Syndrome--they're using rules as a paper shield. And paper (sorry Mythbusters) doesn't do all that well as a defense mechanism. You can't shift responsibility for the choices you made or the consequences of those choices.

And in this case, Dreams of Hope is stable because the Great Mechanism maintains stability. That is its Prime Directive, and as the remains of the Dreamer who created the universe, it has a lot of pull. Is it perfectly stable? No. That would be boring. And choice is encoded in the GM as well. Adventurers (or other people) can change things. But certain things are not (easily) subject to change. One of those is the basic structure of the world--you'll never destroy the barrier. Because the barrier is part of the feedback loop that maintains the universe--destroying it would involve destroying the GM, and that would destroy the universe itself. It's a closed loop.

There is a mechanism to change the Directives (more precisely, to write new ones in). An artifact which serves as a root console. Like everything in Dreams of Hope, it comes with a price[1], however. Making a Wish (capital letter there--the spell is a much-watered down version) costs the Wisher his or her existence. Past, present, and future. That person never existed; everything he had done was done by someone else. He is forgotten--erased from memory and from history. There have been 4 Wishes so far--the first brought wizardry, the second spirit magic (ie druidism), the third divine magic, and the fourth? Too early to tell. But some form of "technological" magic (artificers, not technology).

Well, fair enough. Getting to Explore your setting could certainly be a big draw. I can probably appreciate that better than most. I could Explore Everday, but Placia... too much of what I would care about is known (at least, to me). (to use my classic example, if there's floating rocks, I already know why they are floating, and wouldn't be inspired to invent something new based on some cool new reveal.) Also, most of it isn't what I would consider "pretty" - I would not, personally, enjoy the aesthetics of most of Placia (not the flora/fauna, not the geography, not the architecture, not the clothing styles, not even most of the art).

I know...the surface. But every time I play in it, I discover new things. Things I didn't design, yet that are there by necessity. I've only planned the highest levels of generality--the rest emerges. And beauty is besides the point--it's newness. The pieces clicking into place. As an example, I originally had decided that humans were the descendants of the primordial servants of Change/Chaos (hence their flexibility), and thus that goblins were mutated humans. And I had a (memed) racist (of the 40k Imperium style) character in a party, so I planted (on the fly, as a throw-away joke) an in-universe document that claimed that the order was the reverse--that goblins were the ancestors of humanity, and that humanity was artificial. Was it intended to be canon? Not really. I do a lot of those questionably-valid documents. This one was mainly intended to poke that character. But then I realized that it explained so darn much. And the consequences of the nature of goblinoids had a ripple effect that answered lots of unsettled elements. So it became canon. And that isn't the only time--more often than not, I've thrown away my designs in favor of a chance thing the players assumed it was. Because it fit much better than what I had designed. That kind of emergent coherence is, to me, beauty. Even if the subject is dark and nasty.

I'm not sure if "most adventurers never become successful", "most adventurers cannot learn their way past 5th level", and "it's 5e - levels don't matter (you'll still get crushed by orcs)" really make the "Dawn of Hope" setting sound terribly appealing to the average adventurer. A draw for playing there as a PC maybe, but not for living there as an adventurer.

If my soul knew that it wanted to be an adventurer, and got to pick which world to incarnate into, that description certainly sounds like a turn-off to me.

Adventurers (those that reach 1st-level, which is a precondition here) are already successful. There are lots of "adventurers" who are really bandits. They're less successful. And adventuring has gotten a lot safer (on average)--45 years ago the average lifespan of an adventurer was 1-2 missions. Now, if you can get accepted by a Registered Company (and the Golden Banner[2] will accept nearly everyone) you've got a pretty good chance of surviving a "big" mission and retiring wealthy. Hard to beat a few hundred gold for a few days' work. And even "low level" adventurers often get very wealthy (by local standards).

It's not a high-power setting. On purpose. Those...struggle with consistency I've found, unless locked down so tight there's no room for adventure.

[1] All that lives must die. No power without cost. Death is the cost of ultimate power; sacrifice brings power. These are the three Laws from the beginning. Tradeoffs make a major part of the underpinnings of the setting.
[2] The Walmart of Registered Companies. They're everywhere, they're cheap to hire, and they'll hire anyone. And the quality's about the same as well.

[Luccan]

Probably Eberron for the higher standard of living. A second war is something to worry about though. Most settings aren't really desirable to live in, even ignoring the world shattering events every few years in most places you'd probably be a peasant at best.

[Wizard_Lizard]

eberron assuming my home brew world probably is off the table.

[noob]

Is dual classing between 2e wizard and 3.5 wizard within 4e essentials a legitimate long term choice?
(according to 4e essential rules it is but I am wondering if it is within the spirit of the thread)

[Clistenes]

I have no such issues with the story - had it attacked the "good guys" unfairly, and then held up, say, Drow society as the paragon of perfection, then I would have had a problem with it.

Speaking of Dragons (and this is for anyone)... Eberron (vs?) Council of Wyrms? What do dragons do in this/these settings?

For Eberron in particular, has a Dragon ever sought godhood?

Technically speaking, all Eberronian dragons aspire to godhood. Their religion teaches that only dragons can worship the "true" gods, and that the Sovereigns are all dragons who were rewarded with "lesser" godhood as reward for enbodying an archetype perfectly enough...

So the purpose of draconic religion is to become a certain draconic archetype, so they will be selected as a new Sovereign...

Is dual classing between 2e wizard and 3.5 wizard within 4e essentials a legitimate long term choice?
(according to 4e essential rules it is but I am wondering if it is within the spirit of the thread)

Probably too much...

[Quertus]

Spoiler: @PhoenixPhyre - Quick Takeaways

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So, for brevity, a few quick takeaways:

For Game Physics, if my Wizard can memorize exactly 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd level spells, that is a measurable bit of physics. That your world has very kludged code with lots of exceptions on how to determine those numbers doesn't change that... unless it's a "mother may I" setting, where your players pester you to change that to only being able to cast 5th level spells, and only Animate Dead at that. But, other that whether physics operate physics-first or "mother may I"-first (and me agreeing that of course all priests aren't Clerics), the rest of this conversation is likely outside the scope of this thread.

For Stability, what do you mean that the Great Mechanism's "prime directive" is to promote Stability? Define what stability it promotes. For example, if the world transitioned along straight / lgbt lines, or monogamy vs polygamy, racism vs tolerance, or to cannibalism or vegetarianism, would the Great Mechanism care? If humanity and/or goblinkind evolved wings, or merged back into a single species, would it care? If separationists decided to split off a sizable chunk of a continent and form New Atlantis (or whatever they in-character decided to call their new island continent), would it care? If someone tried to create a new form of ("technology"-based) magic, would it care? If someone foresaw viral Borg doom, and tried to disconnect the world from the realm of Dream, would it care? If someone tried to change demons (all, or a subset thereof) to a diet of Hatred, would it care? If someone tried to create a new species of dragon, would it care? If someone tried to exterminate all Rust Monsters, or all Dinosaurs, to make a species Extinct, would it care? If someone tried to craft a "weave" atop all magic, to provide a new interface to magic, would it care? And how does the Great Mechanism promote whatever branch(es) of stability it cares about?

For Exploration,
a) Aesthetics matter to me, particularly if I'm living there. I'm a bit of a sensate. That's all I meant about Aesthetics, as one reason why I wouldn't enjoy living on and Exploring Placia.
b) Do you really believe that you would be able to Explore the underpinnings of your reality by living there anywhere near as effectively as by GMing?
c) I haven't found that my underpinnings really change by running others in the world. Granted, that's probably in part because I was building the world for well over a decade before I ran anyone in it.

For being Born There With Knowledge
a) oh, that's exactly the mechanic some of my "gods" use to instantiate into and Explore a world, so not closed to them at all.
b) you said that there's precedent - in your world? In D&D?
c) If it's not being done by some godlike being who can fake being a clueless baby (possibly by actually being a clueless baby, with extra knowledge "to the side", like multiple computer threads), how, exactly, does this work?

For Borg Virus, why? What is its purpose? What (if any) defenses does it have?

eberron assuming my home brew world probably is off the table.

Why (on both counts)?

Is dual classing between 2e wizard and 3.5 wizard within 4e essentials a legitimate long term choice?
(according to 4e essential rules it is but I am wondering if it is within the spirit of the thread)

... what? 4e rules said "feel free to run a 2e Wizard"? Am I hearing that right?

[noob]

Spoiler: @PhoenixPhyre - Quick Takeaways

Show

So, for brevity, a few quick takeaways:

For Game Physics, if my Wizard can memorize exactly 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd level spells, that is a measurable bit of physics. That your world has very kludged code with lots of exceptions on how to determine those numbers doesn't change that... unless it's a "mother may I" setting, where your players pester you to change that to only being able to cast 5th level spells, and only Animate Dead at that. But, other that whether physics operate physics-first or "mother may I"-first (and me agreeing that of course all priests aren't Clerics), the rest of this conversation is likely outside the scope of this thread.

For Stability, what do you mean that the Great Mechanism's "prime directive" is to promote Stability? Define what stability it promotes. For example, if the world transitioned along straight / lgbt lines, or monogamy vs polygamy, racism vs tolerance, or to cannibalism or vegetarianism, would the Great Mechanism care? If humanity and/or goblinkind evolved wings, or merged back into a single species, would it care? If separationists decided to split off a sizable chunk of a continent and form New Atlantis (or whatever they in-character decided to call their new island continent), would it care? If someone tried to create a new form of ("technology"-based) magic, would it care? If someone foresaw viral Borg doom, and tried to disconnect the world from the realm of Dream, would it care? If someone tried to change demons (all, or a subset thereof) to a diet of Hatred, would it care? If someone tried to create a new species of dragon, would it care? If someone tried to exterminate all Rust Monsters, or all Dinosaurs, to make a species Extinct, would it care? If someone tried to craft a "weave" atop all magic, to provide a new interface to magic, would it care? And how does the Great Mechanism promote whatever branch(es) of stability it cares about?

For Exploration,
a) Aesthetics matter to me, particularly if I'm living there. I'm a bit of a sensate. That's all I meant about Aesthetics, as one reason why I wouldn't enjoy living on and Exploring Placia.
b) Do you really believe that you would be able to Explore the underpinnings of your reality by living there anywhere near as effectively as by GMing?
c) I haven't found that my underpinnings really change by running others in the world. Granted, that's probably in part because I was building the world for well over a decade before I ran anyone in it.

For being Born There With Knowledge
a) oh, that's exactly the mechanic some of my "gods" use to instantiate into and Explore a world, so not closed to them at all.
b) you said that there's precedent - in your world? In D&D?
c) If it's not being done by some godlike being who can fake being a clueless baby (possibly by actually being a clueless baby, with extra knowledge "to the side", like multiple computer threads), how, exactly, does this work?

For Borg Virus, why? What is its purpose? What (if any) defenses does it have?

Why (on both counts)?



... what? 4e rules said "feel free to run a 2e Wizard"? Am I hearing that right?

A small paragraph in 4e essentials errata told you could use older dnd content or a similar phrasing(they probably meant older 4e content but they wrote it wrong and did not specify it had to be 4e content)